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Ultra HD (4K) Blu-ray specification completed

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Wag

Wag

Member
MrJames said:
Does it support HDCP 2.2? Definitely fucked without that.
Click to expand...

If it's 1.4 it doesn't. If it's 2.0 it might. My 2015 Samsung 4k TV does, but for my large screen 4k TV I'm going to pick up a HDMI 2.0a model, those are going to be the ones that support the HDR standard.
 
M

MrJames

Member
Raistlin said:
No HDMI 1.4 hardware support HDCP 2.2.
Click to expand...

The Sony X900A and X850A shipped with 1.4/HDCP 2.2. Some of the early production X900A's needed tech visit to replace a board to meet 2.2 specs in order to use the their FMP-X1 4K media player. Once the 2.0 spec was finalized all that was needed was a firmware update. I'm not familiar with the early LG models so I'm not sure if they did anything like that.
 
Wag

Wag

Member
If you're buying a big screen 4k TV, especially one for Ultra HD Blu-Ray, you'ld probably be best waiting for one that supports the upcoming HDMI 2.0a spec. HDR is arguably a more important advancement than even the higher resolution than 4k has to offer.
 
B

bigb0ss

Banned
I wonder if there will be an option to watch a movie in 24 fps or 60 fps. Were there any movies filmed in 60 fps that would give that option?

BTW I'm not a fan of smooth movies, but it's nice to have the option (since it's part of the spec).
 
Wag

Wag

Member
bigb0ss said:
I wonder if there will be an option to watch a movie in 24 fps or 60 fps. Were there any movies filmed in 60 fps that would give that option?

BTW I'm not a fan of smooth movies, but it's nice to have the option (since it's part of the spec).
Click to expand...

Doubtful. Most theatrical movies are shot at 24fps. Some video cameras can shoot at 60fps tho. Why would you want to?
 
Badlucktroll

Badlucktroll

Member
If anyone cares, play memories for ps4 has a 4k media player built in now. You can upload mp4 4k video files, like movie trailers to it, and it will play them. no joke!

attachment.php
 
Shin-Ra

Shin-Ra

Junior Member
Badenergytroll said:
If anyone cares, play memories for ps4 has a 4k media player built in now. You can upload mp4 4k video files, like movie trailers to it, and it will play them. no joke!

attachment.php
Click to expand...
What happens when you quickly switch to the PDM and back?

I think the PS3 PlayMemories app supports 4K for photo viewing. Probably switches to 4K 30Hz.
 
Badlucktroll

Badlucktroll

Member
Since Ps4 now has a 4k video player (kind of), i bet it will get 4k netflix in the future. All the app needs is an update. Its a pain in the ass to upload 4k videos to play memories. its soooo slow. I uploaded about 5 movie trailers and it took 8 hours.
 
Melon Husk

Melon Husk

Member
Sir Abacus said:
If you look at the EM spectrum it goes Ultra, Super, Extreme.

But then it goes to far infrared and we're back full circle to records then CDs again.
Click to expand...

So if 4K is Ultra HD, 8K is Super HD, 16K is Extreme HD ...then I don't think we need anything after that.
 
S

Senoculum

Member
People be taking about storage concerns; and it's totally valid! I've seen 4k movies with specs for digital projectors in major cinemas running up to 1.5 Terrabytes. And trust me, they're still compressed!

This is a nice step; but we have a long way to go for uncompressed video with 32-bit floating point colour space per pixel!
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
MrJames said:
The Sony X900A and X850A shipped with 1.4/HDCP 2.2. Some of the early production X900A's needed tech visit to replace a board to meet 2.2 specs in order to use the their FMP-X1 4K media player. Once the 2.0 spec was finalized all that was needed was a firmware update. I'm not familiar with the early LG models so I'm not sure if they did anything like that.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the correction.

Yes, there are a few models that came out during the transition period that are upgradable (and in some cases need an actual tech visit to update the keys), but that is the exception ... not the rule.

I meant for devices that have traditional HDMI 1.4 setups. At this point, the only units that have been announced as upgradable are a select handful of Sony TV's. So basically if you have a recent TV, there's a small chance you can get this upgrade ... but for the vast majority of displays with HDMI 1.4, you are likely out of luck from what I've seen.

It seems in the case of the Sony's, they had one or two ports that support HDCP 2.2, but must be activated with a firmware update. However in each of those sets, the other HDMI ports do not support HDCP 2.2. I doubt that sort of thing is pervasive.
 
Shin-Ra

Shin-Ra

Junior Member
I've been playing around with PlayMemories on PS4 a bit and made a few observations:

  • My monitor's limited to 2160p30 over HDMI(1.4) so even if PS4 supported 60Hz output already I can't test it
  • When switching between the app and the PlayStation Dynamic Menu there's only a short black screen delay as my monitor switches between 1080p60(PDM) and 2160p30(PM app)
  • The PlayMemories GUI isn't optimised for UltraHD display, most text and graphics are upscaled from 1080p quality or lower
  • I uploaded some 3840x2160 screenshots in JPEG format to https://playmemoriesonline.com/dashboard and they displayed correctly in native resolution
  • I uploaded the same screenshots in PNG format and they were automatically recompressed as low-quality JPEGs
  • I uploaded a 1.04GB H.264/AAC 2160p29.97 video downloaded from YouTube and it uploaded reasonably quickly, less than 15 minutes ...
  • But the service took over half an hour to transcode the uploaded video to a lower quality 1080pish video
Maybe if you upload an AVCHD video like a Sony camera would capture, no transcoding's required and it plays in native resolution.

17219800964_18c2de162b_o.jpg
Click to expand...
 
D

Dpp1978

Neo Member
Raistlin said:
Actually there really is no 'true' 4K as there are multiple cinema resolutions commonly designated as such.



That said, it's moot. You're comparing cinema resolutions to a format that will be displayed on a fixed pixel, 16x9 display. It's apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

All digital cinema projectors are fixed pixel devices. They have either 2k or 4k chips in a 1.85:1 ratio, just as modern TVs have either HD or UHD panels in a 1.78:1 ratio. In that respect it is apples to apples.

Cinema projectors to this day have pretty shit contrast and black levels. While that may finally improve with the new Imax and Dolby laser projectors, it's a realty that theaters have had to contend with since day one. As a way to combat this many theaters moved to a 'constant vertical height' setup. What that means is the wider the aspect ratio, the wider the image ... but it always maintains the same vertical height. That addresses two issues. 1) You don't have to change the focus (obviously a bad idea to try to do in real time - it's hard enough maintaining calibration without constant changes), and 2) you can draw curtains when you go to a less-wide aspect ratio and hide the light bleed from the crap black leveled pillar boxes.
Click to expand...

That is true for the screens in many multiplexes, although many are constant image width set ups, but that has little to do with the projectors. When the screen changes shape from 1.85:1 to 2.39:1 a digital projector has to zoom the image to fill the screen: and vice versa. So in a 2.39:1 film you are getting less vertical resolution than in a 1.85:1 film. In that respect it is exactly the same as a DVD or Blu-ray.

In the analogue days they had different lenses for scope or flat prints which could be quickly switched, but that is not the case for digital prints.

As an aside I agree about the shitty black levels, which makes it especially annoying when some cinemas don't use masking any more which, as you say, mitigates the issue somewhat. When I saw Age of Ultron they didn't even bother to zoom the image so we has a window-boxed image, wasting over a third of the screen and emphasizing the crappy black levels.

With digital, they created multiple 4k resolutions. The popular ones have the same vertical resolution (to avoid scaling when maintaining constant vertical height), and only change in horizontal resolution to reflect the popular cinema aspect ratios (it's a 1:1 pixel format - they don't want to mess with anomorphic optics anymore). The same thing is true of 2k resolution formats.
Click to expand...

No.

As we are talking about viewing formats there are 2 aspect ratios in the DCI standard. 1.85:1 and 2.39:1. 1.85:1 uses the entire height of the projector's chip and 2.39:1 uses the entire width of the chip. That is true for both 2k and 4k. Any other aspect ratio will be either pillar-boxed or letter-boxed inside one of those. They are then zoomed to fit the screen.

There are more resolutions for scanning film, but they are all conformed to one or other of the DCI resolutions in post. For example in a full res scan of a full aperture 1.33:1 35mm film, each frame would be 4096x3112 pixels. This would then be pillarboxed inside a 1.85:1, 2160 pixel high, DCI for exhibition, throwing away a lot of information from the raw scan.

When you make the jump to a format designed for fixed pixels displays, they logically went with the resolution that is the same as a 16:9 4K cinema resolution. To be clear if a director wanted to shoot a 4K movie for cinemas in 16:9, it would use 3840 x 2160 resolution. And since we can't physically change the aspect ratio of our fixed pixel displays, they instead embed the black bars.
Click to expand...

There is no 16:9 cinema resolution. But 1.85:1 is so close to 16:9 (or 1.78:1) as to make very little difference.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Reading between the lines with recent news of Sony Corp (ADR) Acquires Data Storage Startup Optical Archive. :

The 4K Digital bridge allowing streaming over the home network will make 4K Blu-ray Juke box players very attractive. They will be able to store up to 400 disks for play over the home network. Another use for these juke boxes will be as optical data archives and we now have a recent news article that Sony is going into this business. For those of us with smaller pocketbooks (400 Blu-ray disks and player = $11,000) a PS4 with a 2 TB drive or 6TB external 3.5 inch drive and 100 movies = $2,900

Another plus point of optical data storage on discs is that currently a user can store 50GB of data on a disc, but the plan is to increase the capacity to 300GB per disc by the end of this year (5 66GB layers). Future plans are to go up to 1TB. Unlike SSD’s stacked all over a room, data can be stored in a very neat and tidy way by using these discs since they take up less space compared to other storage mediums.

Mr. Frankovsky says this idea is just like a juke box, and that the idea of selling his company to Sony is a well thought out move since the OAI idea needs resources Sony is well equipped with.

...former Facebook Inc (NASDAQ:FB) executive Frank Frankovsky's invention. OIA was founded by the executive last year after he left his position as head of Facebook’s hardware design and supply-chain operations.
Click to expand...
Could Frankovsky know something? Facebook storage of movie clips and pictures as well as Oculus Rift VR tours are going to be extremely large. Optical storage via juke box is too slow for instant recall on Facebook but for VR tours it might be practical.
 
L

Lights and Waves

Member
This is cool news for people that have TVs that support this format, but aren't Blu-Ray sales at an all time low as of late? I can't imagine this rejuvenating the market.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Lights and Waves said:
This is cool news for people that have TVs that support this format, but aren't Blu-Ray sales at an all time low as of late? I can't imagine this rejuvenating the market.
Click to expand...
Maybe you didn't understand that one of the features is the digital bridge which allows legal copies and steaming over the home network of both 1080P and 4K blu-ray disks. It starts with the XB1 and PS4 with firmware updates later this year. That sure interests me and I will be buying blu-ray over DVD disks in the future.

http://variety.com/2013/digital/news/future-of-home-video-why-hollywood-needs-a-digital-bridge-to-work-with-electronics-biz-1200748360/ said:
Hollywood needs to build “a digital bridge” with the electronics industry as studios look to grow their homevideo businesses, according to Mike Dunn, president of Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.

Since streaming such large files isn’t as cost effective of a delivery method as HD video currently is on services like Netflix, future Blu-ray players should include massive hard drives with at least 1-terabyte of storage, to boost interest in future homevideo releases. (This is about Cloud streaming and Playready Sideloading)

Such devices are currently in development, with the first to be released in 2015. The electronics industry predicts there will be more than 874 million connected devices in 2015 that can connect to entertainment (see image below).

A so-called digital bridge will provide “a pathway for new connections between consumers and their content,” Dunn said during a keynote Monday at the CEA Industry Forum at the Hyatt Regency hotel in Century City.

In order to make devices more attractive, however, content needs to be easier to access.

While companies are touting the benefits of storing content in the cloud, Dunn actually went old-school, pushing for more electronics manufacturers to build larger hard drives into their new devices, which would enable more consumers to store content, especially larger Ultra HD files.

With a DVD or Blu-ray player already in over 101 million households in the U.S., Dunn called the devices one of the most important pieces of real estate for content, and as those players get replaced, the next-generation Blu-ray player with a built-in hard drive “will be the obvious choice” for consumers.

The device will need to play all disc formats and Ultra HD video in 4K, offer up wireless Internet connectivity, enable content to be managed and move it to any device.
Click to expand...
4K blu-ray (firmware update) Terabyte drives and Vidipath coming to the PS4 in 2015.

Projections are that 40% of the people who have advanced cable TV features and Internet will have a Vidipath connected home by the end of 2016. With such a home the blu-ray streaming makes sense particularly since most PS4 and XB1 owners will be a very large subset of the Vidipath connected homes and already have a 4K blu-ray with digital bridge..
 
Y

Yaari

Member
I guess that depends on what you want to do with it. But as far as Sony goes, only 930c and 940c are HDR capable.
 
L

Lights and Waves

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Maybe you didn't understand that one of the features is the digital bridge which allows legal copies and steaming over the home network of both 1080P and 4K blu-ray disks. It starts with the XB1 and PS4 with firmware updates later this year. That sure interests me and I will be buying blu-ray over DVD disks in the future.
Click to expand...

Yeah but what does that mean to the average person? If they weren't buy discs before this, what's going to make them want to buy a NEW br player just to play these discs?
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Lights and Waves said:
Yeah but what does that mean to the average person? If they weren't buy discs before this, what's going to make them want to buy a NEW br player just to play these discs?
Click to expand...
Projections are that 40% of the people who have advanced cable TV features and Internet will have a Vidipath connected home by the end of 2016. With such a home the blu-ray streaming makes sense particularly since most PS4 and XB1 owners will be a very large subset of the Vidipath connected homes and already have a 4K blu-ray with digital bridge..

Leaked Sony Docs on 4K blu-ray
 
R

RukusProvider

Banned
Next year seems like a good time to overhaul my video chain with a new Oled, receiver and 4k player.

After having seeing oled in person, it's the only thing that can replace my Kuro for critical viewing.
 
V

Vashetti

Banned
D

dork

Banned
Vashetti said:
HDR = High Dynamic Range, which is part of the Ultra HD Blu-ray specification.

So, look for HDR, HDCP 2.2, HDMI 2.0a.

If anything, I'd continue to hold out until all the standards are finalised.
Click to expand...

Yeah looks like there aren't any or many HDR ones. A few sonys that will update.

Looks like I'll wait
 
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