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United Airlines violently drags a doctor off a plane so employee could take his seat

Why do you fly United?

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G

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

The only two options were not cancel the other flight or physically abuse a passenger. Even still physical abuse is never an option, the airline needed to find an option that did not include assaulting a customer. I'm shocked I need to say that to anyone
 
C

CaviarMeths

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

I think United has a bridge to sell you if you think this is a problem that they couldn't have easily avoided and there weren't a handful of other solutions to. Even if there wasn't, it's pretty fucked up to be saying "won't somebody please think of the corporation!" when a senior citizen what beaten bloody for refusing to volunteer his seat.
 
D

danm999

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

There are lots of alternatives.

United doesn't overbook its flight.

United finds alternate transportation for its staff.

United ups the amount of money it's offering so someone else takes up the offer in a manner that's actually voluntary.

Cleverer people than me can probably posit more alternatives.

This isn't some runaway trolley no one could predict; the whole point of that analogy is the trolley driver has limited agency and can't stop the trolley or change its course.

Whereas here this is bad corporate policy running into terrible employees exercising truly awful judgement. All totally human and predictable and avoidable on the part of United.

And if you place those things above a physicians need to treat his patients, let alone not being assaulted, well I wouldn't use the labels you're complaining about but honesty they're in the ballpark.
 
P

pastrami

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

This is only a trolley problem because United tied down those people on the tracks. So maybe we should focus on that, not on the person we "need" to run over for the greater good.
 
M

mid83

Member
guybrushfreeman said:
The only two options were not cancel the other flight or physically abuse a passenger. Even still physical abuse is never an option, the airline needed to find an option that did not include assaulting a customer. I'm shocked I need to say that to anyone
Click to expand...

United should have never let it get to that point by booting people off the flight prior to boarding.

I also find it pretty disturbing how the guy was dragged off, but then again I'm sure it's in the fine print that they can remove you from a flight for any reason. At some point they are going to call in security/law enforcement.
 
K

KeRaSh

Member
What a fucked up situation.
Thank god I'm not flying with United in June when I visit my cousin...
*checks flight data*
For fucks sake...
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
boneyjangles said:
I think because this happens every day hundreds of times worldwide. If word got out that all you had to do was refuse and refuse in order to get multiple times your initially offered compensation, it's a new normal.
Click to expand...

You can refuse voluntary, you can't refuse involuntary. Hence why compensation is higher for involuntary, and it's cash/cheque, rather than vouchers. Most airlines when they do it will have travellers volunteer as it is a way to rack up some "free" rewards if you're a flexible traveller. So the stats for involuntary bumping are a smaller slice of the overall pie.

Federal statistics show that in a five-year span ending with 2016, United Airlines bumped more than 42,500 passengers (who were holding confirmed reservations) involuntarily from flights because the company had overbooked the flight.
Click to expand...

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...t-improving/LWDavgQJvNgiAglVYnGLeL/story.html

These are Delta 2016 figures, but used to illustrate the gulf in difference between requested and forced

Voluntary
In 2016, for example, Delta had the most voluntary denied boardings of any U.S. airline — 129,825 passengers who volunteered to be bumped.
Click to expand...

Involuntary
Delta Air Lines had 1,238 involuntarily bumped passengers in 2016, a rate of 0.1 per 10,000 passengers. That was the second-best rate among U.S. airlines.
Click to expand...

129k volunteered
1.2k were involuntary

http://airport.blog.ajc.com/2017/04/10/airline-bumping-what-are-your-rights/

In one year alone, so, you can say overbooking is definitely a major problem, but at what cost would there be to completely outlaw it?

There's actually quite a good Q&A in this Time article titled

TIME: Should overbooking be illegal?

Normally, this transaction is completed before passengers enter the plane. But for reasons still unclear, United allowed people to board before realizing it needed to make room for four members of its staff. After making several offers to the seated customers but receiving no volunteers, airline staff then proceeded to the last action they can: "involuntarily denied boarding." According to the Department of Transportation's laws, airlines have the right to do this, as long as they pay the displaced customer for their troubles — up to a maximum of $1,350. Yet this also typically happens before the plane is boarded.

T he entire situation — airlines selling more tickets than they have seats, then having a ticket holder dragged off a plane for refusing to vacate a space he seemed to have paid for — struck many people as strange, especially if it was all legal. TIME spoke with to Charles Leocha, chairman and cofounder of the consumer advocacy group Travelers United, and a member of the Department of Transportation's Advisory Committee for Aviation Consumer Protections.
Click to expand...

Charles Leocha: If overbooking is made illegal, ticket prices are going to go up. The airlines normally do a pretty good job on overbooking. People know it's coming, and they are willing to allow themselves to be bribed to get off the flight. People who are actually bumped and are really irritated about it are almost nonexistent — it's a tiny percentage. But the people who want lower prices are around 100%.
Click to expand...

I already seen it hit on earlier in this topic, but it seems if pressure is pushed to legislate overbooking as illegal, then bottom line airline fees will go up.

This was asked over and over as well

Many people are under the impression that when they buy an airline ticket, they are purchasing a seat on the plane. What are people actually paying for?

They're paying for transportation from Point A to Point B. And the way that the airline contracts of carriage are written, they're not even paying for transportation to get them there at the right time. Or the same day. They're just getting the best efforts of the airlines. The airlines don't want a lot of people sitting at the airport — that doesn't serve good business purpose. But in the contract, you're really just buying transportation from Point A to Point B.
Click to expand...

Other questions about how badly UA handled this here http://time.com/4733837/united-airlines-passenger-volunteer-overbooking/
 
N

NeoGold123

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

So, ethically, its better to bash one person up than to delay a flight. The problem here is not the situation as it would have been, but the actions taken to resolve the situation as it was.
 
G

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
mid83 said:
United should have never let it get to that point by booting people off the flight prior to boarding.

I also find it pretty disturbing how the guy was dragged off, but then again I'm sure it's in the fine print that they can remove you from a flight for any reason. At some point they are going to call in security/law enforcement.
Click to expand...

Physical abuse is never an option because of an overbooked flight. They needed to find another option
 
A

autumnleaf

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

Literally just book a car to drive the staff members to the destination. Probably cheaper than the compensation they were offering people.
 
G

gconsole

Member
boneyjangles said:
The alternative is he isn't forcibly removed from the flight after refusing to be bumped.

The airline capitulates and in light of only 3 of their 4 staff members getting to the destination. That flight they were due to work on is then cancelled due to staff shortage for safety reasons. Hundreds of people inconvenienced.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Cancelling one persons flight versus hundreds of peoples flights at the destination potentially, Sort of like a 'lite' version of the ethical "trolley problem" in a way.

But thinking about this makes me a 'psychopath', or 'absolute piece of shit despicable scum of the earth human being' according to some people on this thread.
Click to expand...

No. That is very logical thinking but lack of humanity when it sounds like u r ok with what they did to that passenger. I wish they do that to ur parent or kid since it is bery reasonable in ur point of view.
 
M

mid83

Member
danm999 said:
There are lots of alternatives.

United doesn't overbook its flight.

United finds alternate transportation for its staff.

United ups the amount of money it's offering so someone else takes up the offer in a manner that's actually voluntary.

Cleverer people than me can probably posit more alternatives.

This isn't some runaway trolley no one could predict; the whole point of that analogy is the trolley driver has limited agency and can't stop the trolley or change its course.

Whereas here this is bad corporate policy running into terrible employees exercising truly awful judgement. All totally human and predictable and avoidable on the part of United.

And if you place those things above a physicians need to treat his patients, let alone not being assaulted, well I wouldn't use the labels you're complaining about but honesty they're in the ballpark.
Click to expand...

I don't think overbooking is going away anytime soon they rely on it for the majority of their profit margin. We'd likely see pretty large ticket price increases without it to make up the difference.

As much as it sucks if you are the one asked off, the overwhelming majority of the time it works out fine. Everybody should adopt Delta's strategy of asking what $$ amount voucher you'd be willing to give up your seat for. They take the lowest bids and work it all out prior to boarding. A chart posted on another site showed what percent of people taken off overbooked flights were voluntary vs involuntary and Delta's percent was far lower compared for AA and UA. Without question their strategy works.

Thankfully this stuff is rarely an issue, and we get 10-15% lower fares as a result.
 
B

Bluenoser

Member
Oh boy, United better reach out to settle with this man very soon. All stations are picking it up now. CNN running it, saw it on Greta's show on MSNBC ,etc.
 
S

SteveWD40

Member
Bluenoser said:
Oh boy, United better reach out to settle with this man very soon. All stations are picking it up now. CNN running it, saw it on Greta's show on MSNBC ,etc.
Click to expand...

It's all over the BBC in the UK as well, and United fly out of here from several airports. I used them twice to NYC and hated both experiences, surly staff, tiny seats and poor communication.
 
D

darkhunger

Member
mid83 said:
I don't think overbooking is going away anytime soon they rely on it for the majority of their profit margin. We'd likely see pretty large ticket price increases without it to make up the difference.

As much as it sucks if you are the one asked off, the overwhelming majority of the time it works out fine. Everybody should adopt Delta's strategy of asking what $$ amount voucher you'd be willing to give up your seat for. They take the lowest bids and work it all out prior to boarding. A chart posted on another site showed what percent of people taken off overbooked flights were voluntary vs involuntary and Delta's percent was far lower compared for AA and UA. Without question their strategy works.

Thankfully this stuff is rarely an issue, and we get 10-15% lower fares as a result.
Click to expand...
And it's not always a negative thing. Sometimes they bump you up a class to find space for you during an overbooking, or you get compensated in a non-time essential situation. Most of the time people accept the compensation satisfied.

They do need to try to maximize those positive occurrences and it doesn't seem like United has tried their hardest to do that.
 
iPaul93

iPaul93

Member
sNE0YD8.gif
 
I

i3allistic

Member
Last time I flew United was 15 year ago, after going thru such a shitty customer service by them I told myself this the last time I will fly with them and rather pay extra for better service...after this incident I'm continue
 
F

freeofgreed

Member
newtypepilot said:
rumor is that the mod who deleted it is a cop because their justification was that it is against the rule: "no videos of police brutality". That's why r/video is being spammed with United related posts to bait the mods to remove them.
Click to expand...

Lol wait is that actually a rule? That site keeps getting worse and worse the more I learn about it.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
there is zero excuse to use violence on an innocent passenger who did not commit anything wrong.

United should have boarded the plane with a money bag in cash x4 the value and the ask for volunteers to win the money bag

no checks, no vouchers, straight up cash
 
R

Randomizer123454444

Member
This would never had made the news if this had been resolved in a non-violent way. No amount of "he refused to leave" is an excuse to beat someone up. Just arrest them then if they are in violation of laws.
 
clem84

clem84

Gold Member
Sorry if these have been brought up before. There were plenty of fuckups here obviously.

- it was a major blunder to overbook the flight and let the passengers board. That's what created the situation in the first place. It's a lot easier to deny access than to forcefully remove somebody. They could've said. "The flight was overbooked. There was a random draw and you were selected to be removed from the passengers list. We can't let you board the plane. We apologize. You will be compensated."

- something had to be done here. Those employees had to be on board to insure the other flight would happen. Compensation was offered. No luck. A random draw was the next, and last the way I see it, logical alternative. The doctor was selected. He could've been a man about it, like the previous couple were, but decided to be an ass. He bears some of the responsibility.

- They had to forcefully remove him but it could've been done in a more civilized manner. That was also a big part of the problem.
 
G

Grimm Fandango

Member
If those passengers were bumped for other passengers, okay I would be a little more forgiving.

But for United employees? This was the best option they could think of?

Fuck off United.
 
M

m0dus

Banned
I'm perplexed by the arguments about overbooking--this flight clearly was not overbooked, as everyone was comfortably seated before the airline decided to kick four people off to make room for staff. So it seems the overbooking discussion simply does not apply here.

Overbooked flights are managed at the gate prior to boarding. That's standard procedure is it not?
 
A

autumnleaf

Member
clem84 said:
The doctor was selected. He could've been a man about it, like the previous couple were, but decided to be an ass. He bears some of the responsibility.
Click to expand...

No way, he has absolutely no responsibility in this. He booked and paid for a ticket like he should, boarded on time. It's entirely down to the airline and staff.
 
S

Squalor

Junior Member
m0dus said:
I'm perplexed by the arguments about overbooking--this flight clearly was not overbooked, as everyone was comfortably seated before the airline decided to kick four people off to make room for staff. So it seems the overbooking discussion simply does not apply here.
Click to expand...
Aren't we just basing that based upon United's statement that the flight was overbooked?

Regardless of the veracity of that statement, we have nothing more to go on.
 
C

CaviarMeths

Member
It's pretty astounding how bad of a customer service and basic humanity fail this is when the simplest, most efficient solution to this issue was to just accept the passenger's refusal and move on to the next. Like, why get hung up on the one guy who says "I am a doctor with patients relying on me." It doesn't make any sense. The only explanation I can think of is that the security on the plane were a bunch of wannabe tough guys who thought they'd show this stubborn old man what's what.

If you reply to a jury duty letter with "I am a doctor with patients relying on me," the court isn't going to send goons to your house to beat you and drag you from your home. They'll just write you back saying "ok" and move on to the next schmuck.
 
T

The Jackdog

Member
i love people defending overbooking.

"its not going away anytime soon so we should get used to it".

Yes, when a company is shitty, the best thing anyone can do is just get used to it

BUT THE CORPORATIONS, WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THEIR BOTTOM LINE!?
 
M

Montresor

Member
clem84 said:
Sorry if these have been brought up before. There were plenty of fuckups here obviously.

- it was a major blunder to overbook the flight and let the passengers board. That's what created the situation in the first place. It's a lot easier to deny access than to forcefully remove somebody. They could've said. "The flight was overbooked. There was a random draw and you were selected to be removed from the passengers list. We can't let you board the plane. We apologize. You will be compensated."

- something had to be done here. Those employees had to be on board to insure the other flight would happen. Compensation was offered. No luck. A random draw was the next, and last the way I see it, logical alternative. The doctor was selected. He could've been a man about it, like the previous couple were, but decided to be an ass. He bears some of the responsibility.

- They had to forcefully remove him but it could've been done in a more civilized manner. That was also a big part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Why did he have to be a man about it and leave the plane?

When an employee at a restaurant needs to take a lunch break, do they force paying customers off a table if they refuse to accommodate the employee?

When an employee at a car rental agency needs a rental car to travel to a new job site, do they forcefully remove a paying customer out of their rental car to accommodate the employee?

Please tell me why the doctor should've complied?
 
clem84

clem84

Gold Member
autumnleaf said:
No way, he has absolutely no responsibility in this. He booked and paid for a ticket like he should, boarded on time. It's entirely down to the airline and staff.
Click to expand...

Shitty situations happen. People have to work together to make the best of them. Sometimes you'll be put in a tough situation because of somebody else's mistake, but it doesn't mean you all of a sudden don't have a choice and/or responsibility over your own actions.
 
C

Chrono Helix

Member
All those images of other airlines mocking United reminds me of Sony's video about borrowing games after Microsoft initially revealed the Xbox One
 
K

kmax

Member
170411140003-united-china-tweets-weibo-exlarge-169.jpg


According to some posters defending United ITT, this (picture to the left) is okay if you "don't comply" or rather - not do exactly what you paid for without risking to get beaten up.

Fucking christ.
 
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