Winterfell does in the books. I don't remember references to anyone else having them, which makes sense as glass that clear would be a rare commodity.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Winterfell does in the books. I don't remember references to anyone else having them, which makes sense as glass that clear would be a rare commodity.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
What nonsense is this? Do you seriously believe that? The plots are already quite diverged and have been since Season 5.
We people deceive nitpicky, this is like the definition of it.
I mean they did do two seasons, and that's with rushing it, and cutting out major plot elements.
So now that they have an ice dragon they can just fly it over the wall anytime they want and open the gate from the other side. I'm just tallying up what this zombie capture mission has cost the living:
-a dragon
-the wall
-get out of jail free card in Benji
But it's cool because Cersei is gonna take one look at the zombie and see the light.
-a dragon
-the wall
-get out of jail free card in Benji
But it's cool because Cersei is gonna take one look at the zombie and see the light.
...Did you even read the books?
Theres so much more going on in the books that this simply is not possible.
radios shipping overview
Member
If Sansa has known Littlefinger this long, knows what he's capable of, and has supposedly become the player of the game, rather than the student...
Why is she still getting played by him? He gave her to Ramsay to get raped and abused so that he could gain favor with the north. Stockholm syndrome?
Why is she still getting played by him? He gave her to Ramsay to get raped and abused so that he could gain favor with the north. Stockholm syndrome?
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Just having the dragon burst out of the frozen lake directly into flight would have been a better visual and there wouldn't have been stupid chains.
That wasn't good. The plan was obviously incredibly stupid. Competent action but I think it was lacking on that front.. I didn't feel like our hero group was a bunch of badasses. I did like the character banter in the first half of the episode.
Gendry running because "he's the fastest" and the double Deus Ex Machina were dumb. Coldhands should have taken out more wights than he did (he takes out only one or two before biting it). Didn't the wights crawl on top of other wights before? Some ice collapsing shouldn't stop them.
The Sansa/Arya stuff is ridiculous unless it's a swerve on Littlefinger bro. The person who pointed out Bran is there is correct. Not sure why Brienne is going anywhere. Also makes no sense for Littlefinger to stir something up in the first place (if anything, he should be plotting against Jon), but bad writing.
Tyrion should probably be fired as hand at this point. Varys basically hasn't done shit all season, for someone who has a great spy network.
Not sure why the dragon that died couldn't have crashed elsewhere so that The Night King didn't have to stop by Chains R Us to get the huge chains to pull him out.
Luckily most of this stuff won't matter for the next episode.
Gendry running because "he's the fastest" and the double Deus Ex Machina were dumb. Coldhands should have taken out more wights than he did (he takes out only one or two before biting it). Didn't the wights crawl on top of other wights before? Some ice collapsing shouldn't stop them.
The Sansa/Arya stuff is ridiculous unless it's a swerve on Littlefinger bro. The person who pointed out Bran is there is correct. Not sure why Brienne is going anywhere. Also makes no sense for Littlefinger to stir something up in the first place (if anything, he should be plotting against Jon), but bad writing.
Tyrion should probably be fired as hand at this point. Varys basically hasn't done shit all season, for someone who has a great spy network.
Not sure why the dragon that died couldn't have crashed elsewhere so that The Night King didn't have to stop by Chains R Us to get the huge chains to pull him out.
Luckily most of this stuff won't matter for the next episode.
But then people would be complaining that they didn't show how they got the dragon out of the water.
It's really apparent this season that they're just working off of a list of high level story beats from GRRM.
And it's also really apparent why TWOW is taking so damn long, as his remaining story beats alone can fill up multiple seasons of TV. I can see tonight's episode being Jon's plot for an entire book.
And it's also really apparent why TWOW is taking so damn long, as his remaining story beats alone can fill up multiple seasons of TV. I can see tonight's episode being Jon's plot for an entire book.
Arya: "I have a bag of faces I can use to disguise myself as but I'll follow LF without using any of them."
cubicle47b
Member
No. He's not rewriting the books to match the show. The books and the show have already diverged enough that they barely resemble each other outside of very broad strokes.
Maybe Sansa and Arya both know he is playing them and are acting even in private to keep the scam going before he overplays his hand and GETS OWNED! Just like how Arya only faked getting stabbed and fell into the river to trick the waif as part of her master plan to turn the tables on the assassin. Oh wait...
Man, you guys are vicious. Not sure what everybody else was expecting, but I thought it was pretty clear that the show would inevitably swerve towards traditional fantasy at some point. And the show has always been a big source of fanservice, that's why I like it! Thought it was a good episode apart from Arya and Sansa having a terrible plot. But overall, still really enjoying the show. When cool characters like the Dornish and the Ironborn were relegated to non-existence or charicature, I knew what the show was about.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
It's just as bad, even if they're playing Littlefinger.
"Remember that stupid plot line for half the season? It was all just a trick to catch Littlefinger!! Wasn't it all worth it!?"
Agreed, this is it in a nutshell. They just have the major story beats to go off of, and it shows.
Plus I think all the stuff they cut in previous seasons came back to haunt them, with not enough going on to fill all the characters time.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
After re-watching Season 5 this week, and making mental notes while watching it. I was pretty positive Season 7 had to be worse than Season 5 (this is without seeing the episode this week). This takes the cake though.
Yeah the waif incident taught me to accept most of Arya's story at face value.
no shit he's undercutting characters. IT'S WHAT HE DOES. He has made it clear before he wants everything. That means complete power. Chaos is a ladder, and he's trying to create that chaos.
Hey, maybe by your standards, Cersei will be completely reasonable next episode because hey, there's white walkers, no time for political machinations, amiright?
But no, the characters have their motivations and Littlefinger is still pursuing his goals like he always has. Regardless of your feelings.
Will the Thrill
Banned
That wasn't official I believe, though I think someone on the cast re-tweeted it or something as a fan thing even if it did turn out right. They wouldn't of given something like that away on a poster.
Yeah. Hold the Door is the only thing that I 100% buy is from the unfinished books. I think they're going to be a lot different (if they ever come out).
catotheyounger
Member
I get that the Arya narrative isn't hitting it's mark, but I feel that her beefing with Sansa is misdirection. I think she is pushing Sansa to use a Face against LF. The handing off of the dagger from Arya to Sansa was basically consent to use her stuff.
I don't appreciate your puns.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
I'm trying to imagine what this would look like. It would be fantastic if it was Littlefinger just creating political suicide. That's all it would take.
Frank the Great
Banned
I think GRRM probably told the writers that the Others get an ice dragon. But, I think it was up to them to figure out how to get there.
And they did it in the dumbest way imaginable.
And they did it in the dumbest way imaginable.
Hold the door
Great Sept of Balor going boom
Ice dragon
Thats 3 I can think of
4, if you count the "Jon is a targaryen" twist even though literally everyone knew it.
EDIT: Plus what TTG says in the post below.
Pretty sure they said the sept explosion was show only.
aronnov reborn
Banned
Was it obvious or suppose to be known if Dany could see the stab scar in jons heart?
Cellbomber
Member
Exactly why all the delays are occurring. He's trying to match it up as much as possible. He needs to figure out the reasons (side stories) where some of the characters deviate from book and show and bring them together with what we are watching. It's happening.
Yeah despite being well and truly done before this is the only way I can see this storyline being resolved satisfactorily.
That said, it would be kinda lame for LF to finally 'lose' to something so boring.
Rapscallion
Member
This has already been made, hasn't it?
I'd count Jon as something that has already happened in the books.
Ice dragon will happen, but probably won't happen like that. And might not even be one of Dany's.
I'm unconvinced of the sept of Baelor explosion. It's possible, but if GRRM has killed off that many characters in one act it's even more inexcusable that he hasn't finished this damn book. Plus, Kevan is already dead, either Loras or Lancel (I can't remember which) has been seriously hurt elsewhere, and I don't see seven year old Tommen jumping out a window.
Edit: And Jon's as dead in the books as a Final Fantasy character that you haven't yet used a Phoenix Down on. If you count that the. You have to count "Arya returns to Westeros" and "Littlefinger still wants to fuck Sansa."
I kind agree with this without the face stuff I think she is telling Sansa to put up or shut up when it comes to Littlefinger and wants her to make the final decision on killing him or not. In a you are either with me or with him way.
What makes this seasons shittiness really hurt is the massive budget increase and the bringing together of characters and storylines decades in the making. All so they could haul ass through it all and get to the ending and move on to their next show.
GRRM must be turning in his grave.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
I was ultimately pretty disappointed in this episode. Thinking back to the last two seasons' peunultimate episodes which culminated in some of the most amazing sequences on the show (Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards) and I was hoping some cool fanfiction squadding up against the Night's Kingd would result in something equally memorable. But not really.
Instead, the interesting plot thread with Jon and Company is broken up by some of the worst writing the show has seen with all the Arya/Sansa forced drama. Yes, Littlefinger is trying to drive a wedge between you people, we get it. Can you please both realize this and kill off Littlefinger already? His scheming isn't going anywhere with how safe the show has gotten as of late.
And the actual stuff beyond the Wall looked nice and everything but... I feel like we've seen all this before? Hardhome was great because it was creepy as hell when the White Walkers had those spooky clouds float down from the cliffs and kind of consume all the Wildlings past the barrier. Then you had the discovery that Valyrian steel can kill the White Walkers and the Night's King raising all those dead. It was suspenseful and well shot and engaging!
Here, you have their whole expedition needlessly broken up with other scenes and just some boneheaded writing and plot contrivances like all the fast travel or the Night's King not targeting Drogon, that could have pretty easily been alleviated with better writing (Have Dany at Eastwatch on standby; have the squad bring some ravens to send in case they get in trouble, like they did at the Fist of the First Men; not have Jon randomly wade off into Wights instead of getting on Drogon).
Ultimately though it was just way too predictable. Even Hardhome where nobody major dies, you still had some of those minor Wildlings like that one lady who you thought maybe she'll become a more major character but nope, she got killed. Here Thoros dies. But that's it. I liked Thoros and all but him and Beric are a step above the random redshirts that died in terms of the show. The second Tormund wasn't dragged down underwater I had the feeling everyone was getting out safe. Jon falling under ice in probably 20 pounds of heavy freezing cold fur and armor? And able to climb out of thin ice no problem and ride for miles and miles back to the Wall? Really?
Without GRRM, the show has kind of completely lost it's edge and unrpedictability, which is a big part of what made the early books and seasons so fun. Robb didn't get some epic showdown with Joffrey, they were betrayed/poisoned when they didn't expect it. The problem is that with the show only having 7 episodes left now, any characters that die I think are getting pretty predictable deaths. Not the sort of Ned or Robb Stark deaths that resonate through the whole world and end up affecting plot points. What if Jon died there for good? Or what if Dany died in this episode for good? That would have shocked me and would have made for a pretty unpredictable final season.
At this point though, its really just fanfiction / fanservice through and through which I'm ok with when its done well. My problem with this episode is that the writing and plotting and direction just wasn't done very well, so all the fancy CG effects in the world can't cover that up.
Instead, the interesting plot thread with Jon and Company is broken up by some of the worst writing the show has seen with all the Arya/Sansa forced drama. Yes, Littlefinger is trying to drive a wedge between you people, we get it. Can you please both realize this and kill off Littlefinger already? His scheming isn't going anywhere with how safe the show has gotten as of late.
And the actual stuff beyond the Wall looked nice and everything but... I feel like we've seen all this before? Hardhome was great because it was creepy as hell when the White Walkers had those spooky clouds float down from the cliffs and kind of consume all the Wildlings past the barrier. Then you had the discovery that Valyrian steel can kill the White Walkers and the Night's King raising all those dead. It was suspenseful and well shot and engaging!
Here, you have their whole expedition needlessly broken up with other scenes and just some boneheaded writing and plot contrivances like all the fast travel or the Night's King not targeting Drogon, that could have pretty easily been alleviated with better writing (Have Dany at Eastwatch on standby; have the squad bring some ravens to send in case they get in trouble, like they did at the Fist of the First Men; not have Jon randomly wade off into Wights instead of getting on Drogon).
Ultimately though it was just way too predictable. Even Hardhome where nobody major dies, you still had some of those minor Wildlings like that one lady who you thought maybe she'll become a more major character but nope, she got killed. Here Thoros dies. But that's it. I liked Thoros and all but him and Beric are a step above the random redshirts that died in terms of the show. The second Tormund wasn't dragged down underwater I had the feeling everyone was getting out safe. Jon falling under ice in probably 20 pounds of heavy freezing cold fur and armor? And able to climb out of thin ice no problem and ride for miles and miles back to the Wall? Really?
Without GRRM, the show has kind of completely lost it's edge and unrpedictability, which is a big part of what made the early books and seasons so fun. Robb didn't get some epic showdown with Joffrey, they were betrayed/poisoned when they didn't expect it. The problem is that with the show only having 7 episodes left now, any characters that die I think are getting pretty predictable deaths. Not the sort of Ned or Robb Stark deaths that resonate through the whole world and end up affecting plot points. What if Jon died there for good? Or what if Dany died in this episode for good? That would have shocked me and would have made for a pretty unpredictable final season.
At this point though, its really just fanfiction / fanservice through and through which I'm ok with when its done well. My problem with this episode is that the writing and plotting and direction just wasn't done very well, so all the fancy CG effects in the world can't cover that up.
All the delays are occurring because GRRM is a shockingly undisciplined writer who's easily distracted, types with 1 finger and has no concept of editing. It's really got nothing to do with the show.
Oh? i could have sworn martin commented saying he hadn't written that scene yet (keyword 'yet') though maybe that was hold the door.
I doubt it. Martin does his own thing. If he come sup with some crazy plot twist or side arc that excites him, the fact that it isnt in the show is not going to stop him. He writes what he wants.
The reason the books are taking so long is because closing plot threads is a lot arder than opening them, and he has a ton of plot lines (significantly more than the show) to tie together.
I could see it happening, particularly as revenge against House Tyrell for Kevan lannister (just as Varys wants), who in the books Cersei was fond of.
Just might not be as "holy shit" because some of the characters that died in that scene in the show (i.e Kevan) are already dead.
I haven't been on board with all the hate the show has gotten so far this season, but this time I'm on board.
+Dragon down
+Hound/Beric/Jorah/Gendry/Jon/Thoros/Tormund conversations
+Beric and Thoros are some crazy motherfuckers - Thoros stumbles around North of the wall drunk, the two instantly light their swords and charge the bear while everyone else hangs back, Beric cauterizing Thoros' chest wound with a flaming sword, lighting his dead friend on fire with the sword, Beric talking about fighting the Night King one on one and looking forward to his death
+The gap between Drogon's kill count and anyone else keeps growing
-The Night King's army fucking sucks. 7 guys killed like 500 wights
-Timeline makes no sense with Gendry running to the wall, sending a raven to Dragonstone, and Dany flying up there all within approx. 1 day
-Arya/Sansa is boring. I missed several sections of the dialog entirely so bear with me, but did Arya pretend to be Littlefinger to suggest Sansa use Brienne to settle the argument.... and when Sansa did the exact opposite Arya realized she wasn't Littlefinger's puppet? It doesn't make a ton of sense but that was the impression I got from the bits and pieces I was there for.
-Hound being an idiot
-Maybe Jon survived his battle with hypothermia because he's a wight himself?
-Only one of the Expendables die and it's Thoros in boring fashion (froze to death in his sleep). Was expecting more fireworks there
-The worst offender of them all.... Benjen comes out of nowhere to die 30 seconds later
+Dragon down
+Hound/Beric/Jorah/Gendry/Jon/Thoros/Tormund conversations
+Beric and Thoros are some crazy motherfuckers - Thoros stumbles around North of the wall drunk, the two instantly light their swords and charge the bear while everyone else hangs back, Beric cauterizing Thoros' chest wound with a flaming sword, lighting his dead friend on fire with the sword, Beric talking about fighting the Night King one on one and looking forward to his death
+The gap between Drogon's kill count and anyone else keeps growing
-The Night King's army fucking sucks. 7 guys killed like 500 wights
-Timeline makes no sense with Gendry running to the wall, sending a raven to Dragonstone, and Dany flying up there all within approx. 1 day
-Arya/Sansa is boring. I missed several sections of the dialog entirely so bear with me, but did Arya pretend to be Littlefinger to suggest Sansa use Brienne to settle the argument.... and when Sansa did the exact opposite Arya realized she wasn't Littlefinger's puppet? It doesn't make a ton of sense but that was the impression I got from the bits and pieces I was there for.
-Hound being an idiot
-Maybe Jon survived his battle with hypothermia because he's a wight himself?
-Only one of the Expendables die and it's Thoros in boring fashion (froze to death in his sleep). Was expecting more fireworks there
-The worst offender of them all.... Benjen comes out of nowhere to die 30 seconds later
I'm convinced it's also because he simply has no desire to finish the series. Unfortunately that means hack TV writers are going to tell the only ending.
Until we get a remake in 30 years, hopefully by which time GRRM's notes will be out there and someone will do the story justice.
"There isn't time!"
Who said they can't write great, original dialogue?
I'm starting to feel like "kidnap and wight and bring it to King's Landing" is a plot point GRRM gave D&D but because of the changes they made in the past two seasons, they were far off from what GRRM might have planned for it in the books and tried to forcibly integrate it into the show in any way they could just to get a key plot point in there.
If TWOW ever releases it would probably make much more sense. Maybe Aegon takes the Throne and Jon (still up north and not king in the north) thinks he can convince this new king of the threat now that the War of the 5 Kings is over and the Lannisters are gone. His plot from this episode alone is probably his entire TWOW plot condensed.
If TWOW ever releases it would probably make much more sense. Maybe Aegon takes the Throne and Jon (still up north and not king in the north) thinks he can convince this new king of the threat now that the War of the 5 Kings is over and the Lannisters are gone. His plot from this episode alone is probably his entire TWOW plot condensed.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
1. Shireen burning 2. Hodor 3. Final twist
This some serious trolling
"I don't have time to explain, why I don't have time to explain."
Also I wish Jon Snow would have said "What the fuck, like what in the fuck!?" As he rode off on Benjen's horse. (Also D&D just call him Coldhands on Inside the episode). Like why lol