Support NeoGAF

[mantidor]

The Father Umber died at the red wedding. The father Karstark was beheaded by Rob stark, Both elders sons for Umber and Karstark joined the Boltons and died at the battle of the bastards. It makes sense that who would be left is the younger siblings.

I don't know, did the women fought and died as well? Or the elders? It felt to me that they wanted the audience to agree with Sansa initially only to switch it around by showing that the surviving heads were just kids and it would have been "bad" to have expelled them. It makes Jon's decision not that hard or controversial.

 

[jett]

Nothing you list there was ever earned by her character in any way. Let's just look in broad strokes at her time in Braavos:

All she did in S5 was fail and constantly question and disobey Jaqen to the point that he had to blind her as punishment. She then spends two episodes of S6 on the street, gets beaten up by the Waif a couple times, and Jaqen just shows up like, "OK- you're cool to come back and train again now." Cue up a couple more lost stick fights to the Waif, and, all of a sudden, she's ready for a new contract! Which, she fails to execute, of course.

Next, knowing full well that either the Waif or Jaqen himself will be coming for her, she just goes galavanting around town in broad daylight throwing big bags of money around to book passage out of town. She then allows a stranger to approach her, never even considering that it might be a faceless assassin, gets her belly sliced open from left to right and then stabbed in the abdomen multiple times.

Let's face facts: she's dead. Her character is dumb as a box of rocks at this point. She's constantly failed in her training, questioned Jaqen at every turn and is openly defying the clearly defined rules of an ancient order of fucking assassins that strikes fear in the hearts of everyone on the globe. When Ned was this stupid, he paid for it with his life. When Robb was this stupid, he paid for it with his life. When Jon was this stupid, he paid for it with his life.

Arya? Nah. She's rewarded for being stupid. Based on what we've seen to this point, we have no reason to believe that she'd be anything other than the shittiest faceless assassin in history, but she gets to pass go, collect $200, and become a master assassin because reasons. And Jaqen is totally cool with her thumbing her nose at the Many-Faced God and just doing what she wants, killing who she wants, etc.- also, because reasons. IN the span of a couple episodes, she goes from losing stick fights against a teenage girl to making Frey pies and wiping out entire houses.

I largely liked S6 and thought it was a great turnaround from the lackluster season before it, but Arya's arc in Braavos was a low point throughout for me. That girl's got so much plot armor on her at this point, I can't figure out how she's able to walk.

You said it better than I could.

 

[Speevy]

You said it better than I ever could.

I D and D'd it up for you.

 

[badcrumble]

I don't know, did the women fought and died as well? Or the elders? It felt to me that they wanted the audience to agree with Sansa initially only to switch it around by showing that the surviving heads were just kids and it would have been "bad" to have expelled them. It makes Jon's decision not that hard or controversial.

Eh, I think it's a good thing to show that both Jon and Sansa have strong ideas about how to handle things but that neither of them is objectively wrong or objectively right. They've both learned a lot from their experiences. The important thing is that there's friction between them but they also both understand the need to stick together, not who's right and who's wrong.

 

[Ithil]

The Westeros Expressway is working overtime. Euron builds a gigantic fleet and sails all the way around Westeros to arrive just as Jaime notes they need an ally. The way it was edited almost made it seem like he said that, then Cersei phoned Euron and he hopped on the next flight over to King's Landing to arrive the next day. Given he must have spent like a month or so sailing around the coast to get there you'd expect him to be more annoyed that she just flatly rejected him after inviting him in the first place.
Then there's Jorah who teleported from Essos to the west side of Westeros and Arya who has used up her teleport spell getting to the Twins and is trudging through the woods waiting for it to come off cooldown.

I get why geography and distance isn't considered anymore, they can't be waiting 4 episodes for people to travel when they only have 13 left in total. However, because it was heavily emphasized early in the show, it really sticks out now.

The time progression is as wacky as ever too, the Winterfell stuff appears to be days after season 6 ended at best, but the King's Landing, Oldtown etc seems to be months later.

However, I did like that Arya is now the one thinking about robbing some kindly strangers while the Hound is fully remorseful about doing the same thing long ago. They've fully switched places. At least, I hope that parallel was intentional.

 

[Zabka]

The Westeros Expressway is working overtime. Euron builds a gigantic fleet and sails all the way around Westeros to arrive just as Jaime notes they need an ally. The way it was edited almost made it seem like he said that, then Cersei phoned Euron and he hopped on the next flight over to King's Landing to arrive the next day. Given he must have spent like a month or so sailing around the coast to get there you'd expect him to be more annoyed that she just flatly rejected him after inviting him in the first place.
Then there's Jorah who teleported from Essos to the west side of Westeros and Arya who has used up her teleport spell getting to the Twins and is trudging through the woods waiting for it to come off cooldown.

I get why geography and distance isn't considered anymore, they can't be waiting 4 episodes for people to travel when they only have 13 left in total. However, because it was heavily emphasized early in the show, it really sticks out now.

The time progression is as wacky as ever too, the Winterfell stuff appears to be days after season 6 ended at best, but the King's Landing, Oldtown etc seems to be months later.

People keep saying this but it was never true. In the first three episodes Cersei and Jaime went from King's Landing to Winterfell and back to King's Landing.

 

[Brakke]

Yeah the geography mostly doesn't matter, there's clearly a lot of time passing that they don't show (like Gilly's baby aging up). And anyway distance was never really a hinderance to anyone's plans so it's not like specific characters get to cheat where others didn't.

But then Jon shouldn't be waving off the southron threat by saying the Lannisters are a thousand miles away lol. Jon they can cross that in like two scenes.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

Eh, I think it's a good thing to show that both Jon and Sansa have strong ideas about how to handle things but that neither of them is objectively wrong or objectively right. They've both learned a lot from their experiences. The important thing is that there's friction between them but they also both understand the need to stick together, not who's right and who's wrong.

Yeah, I thought that exchange between them after the meeting was great and didn't like how it abruptly ended. I thought they could have gone places after Sansa said "Would that be so bad?" and then boom it just ended.

 

[Real Hero]

The show has always minimized the effort travel takes while the books revel in it (to the point of pissing people off)

 

[Gigglepoo]

Given he must have spent like a month or so sailing around the coast to get there you'd expect him to be more annoyed that she just flatly rejected him after inviting him in the first place.

That is pretty weird, isn't it? What message did she send him? He would have been pretty damn pissed that she dismissed him so quickly after he went all the way to King's Landing and she doesn't have any other options. If he doesn't team up with her, the Lannisters should start carving their own tombstones.

 

[Ithil]

People keep saying this but it was never true. In the first three episodes Cersei and Jaime went from King's Landing to Winterfell and back to King's Landing.

That was as part of Robert's visit to Winterfell, however, and because it was at the beginning of the show, there were really next to no other storylines going on other than across the sea. Thus you can judge the time progression yourself. There were clear time gaps shown.

Now even with them having cleared out many of the ongoing narratives, many of them remain and the progression shown in each doesn't match up with the other. That's fine in of itself, but because the show's episodes present them in editing like they are occurring at the same time, it feels off.

And hell, three episodes for them travelling North and back again is a lot different from the ever teleporting Littlefinger and Varys who seemed to just show up wherever they wanted to at one point.

I'm absolutely not saying have characters spend half their time trudging down roads. I'm just saying the nature of the show and the characters they have aligned together tend to be very jarring in terms of geography, not helped by them emphasizing two giant maps in this episode of course.

 

[Zabka]

That was as part of Robert's visit to Winterfell, however, and because it was at the beginning of the show, there were really next to no other storylines going on other than across the sea. Thus you can judge the time progression yourself. There were clear time gaps shown.

Now even with them having cleared out many of the ongoing narratives, many of them remain and the progression shown in each doesn't match up with the other. That's fine in of itself, but because the show's episodes present them in editing like they are occurring at the same time, it feels off.

And hell, three episodes for them travelling North and back again is a lot different from the ever teleporting Littlefinger and Varys who seemed to just show up wherever they wanted to at one point.

They went from King's Landing to Winterfell in a single episode. Halfway through the next episode Jon and Tyrion had already reached the Wall. The show's always been this way.

 

[The Artisan]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

 

[DBT85]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

If you're able to do it of course not.

 

[Randdalf]

The show has always minimized the effort travel takes while the books revel in it (to the point of pissing people off)

It hasn't always, the second episode is literally titled "The Kingsroad" and is about travelling from Winterfell to King's Landing. Which has been somewhat undermined as the show has gone on, what with Littlefinger's private jet shepherding him between various places in record time.

 

[CopperPuppy]

The Westeros Expressway is working overtime. Euron builds a gigantic fleet and sails all the way around Westeros to arrive just as Jaime notes they need an ally. The way it was edited almost made it seem like he said that, then Cersei phoned Euron and he hopped on the next flight over to King's Landing to arrive the next day. Given he must have spent like a month or so sailing around the coast to get there you'd expect him to be more annoyed that she just flatly rejected him after inviting him in the first place.

I also thought the above example had some very awkward editing. The timing of it made the scene feel hammy. They should have ended the Cersei / Jaime scene with her indicating she had found a new ally, then cut to Euron's fleet, but then omitted the immediately subsequent scene showing that, yes, she not only just brought them up to Jaime at this very moment, but they're also actually showing up at this very moment too.

 

[Cornballer]

Ratings:

Game of Thrones returned after its longest wait yet to the show's biggest audience ever — by far.

The worldwide hit series delivered an incredible 16.1 million viewers for the highly anticipated kick off to its penultimate season across all HBO platforms (repeats and streaming and DVR).

That represents a whopping 50 percent increase from last year's premiere — despite the show airing in the summer for the first time when the number of households watching television is lower than in the spring (which is why broadcast networks run most of their original programming from September to May).

Last year the season 6 premiere averaged 10.7 million viewers including streaming (7.9 million viewers without).

@GameOfThrones S7 opens to a massive linear audience of 10.1M viewers at 9 p.m. Sunday, up 27% vs. April 2016 S6 premiere

Including replays + digital views, HBO estimates audience for S7 @GameOfThrones opener already at 16.1M -- +50% vs 2016

Wow.

 

[The Artisan]

If you're able to do it of course not.

is there a termination fee?

 

[Mr Git]

Im really hoping Arya kills those Lannisters and uses one of their faces to make her way into King's Landing.

Otherwise that scene was dumb as fuck but I feel pretty certain that set up was its purpose.

I'd lol if Ed Sheeran assassinates Cersei. It opens shady doors, what exciting cameo will we have next week. I'm putting money on Obama wildling.

 

[Ithil]

So since this is the book thread, how much of this stuff are we thinking could be in the books? Some of it? None of it?

Very little at this point. Some scant plot points and character alliances perhaps. Other than that much of what's in the show is more or less impossible for the books to wind up with.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Has Arya earned the right to call herself a Faceless Man? No. Has she learned the ability to change faces? Yes.

What counts as Earned, do you have any stipulations on what that means or why it is important.

If you don't understand what I'm getting at when I reference a character moment being properly earned or not properly earned, then we're not speaking the same language.

What did Arya learn in seasons 5 and 6 that make her any more qualified to be wearing faces and making Frey pies now than she was at the end of season 4? Based on what we were shown, pretty much anyone can walk into the House of Black and White, do some Q&A about who you are and who you aren't, scrub some floors, wash some corpses, get hit with a stick a bunch, and come out the other side an unstoppable assassinating machine.

Wearing a face for the purpose of impersonating someone evidently requires nothing more than possession of the face itself. Apparently, anyone can do it. No magic and no attunement with the Many-Faced God is necessary, because Arya was never on board with any of it. All she did was openly question both Jaqen's teachings and the established rules of this ancient order every step of the way.

Discipline? Not necessary. Infiltration techniques? Never even talked about. Fighting skills? Evidently, not necessary- as she could never manage to compete with the Waif in anything resembling a fair fight.

So, knowing that- why even go to Braavos at the end of season 4? Just cut off some faces and get to fucking work. Arya is a badass assassin not because of anything she learned or earned while in Braavos, but simply because D&D say so, because revenge and The North Remembers and what-fucking-not.

 

[Pattycakes]

Ratings:Wow.

HBO writing some bonus checks

 

[Valonquar]

At this point I put good money on the King-slayer becoming the Queen-slayer.

 

[mantidor]

Ratings:Wow.

I thought this was the biggest TV show in the world and then I read it didn't make top 10 in some article which I find impossible. I think they were counting stuff like the superbowl, its the only way GoT does not break top 10, this is the most popular TV show, right?

 

[Ithil]

People raise legitimate issues with the long term writing of Arya, but I'm really feeling like this show at this point is doing Jaime dirty. Far from the guy he's become in the books, all he seems to do in the show is hang around next to Cersei vaguely disproving of everything but not doing anything about it like a one handed John McCain. I'm sure he will turn on her at some point but he's sure taking his sweet time. I would have thought blowing up half the city and causing their son's suicide was a last straw kind of thing.

I guess given they literally cleared out all the King's Landing characters except Cersei last season if he wasn't there Cersei would have no one to talk to except Gregor. It was really notable when Euron showed up on his own and you realize that's literally everyone from that plotline in the scene, him, Cersei, Jaime and a zombie.

 

[zeemumu]

They even forgot to take off his zombie makeup!

Spoiler

I have no idea what his role in Resident Evil is

He was the main villain of the third movie and the main villain of the final movie. So if you've ever wanted to see Jorah Mormont do Matrix shit and turn into a Tyrant, there ya go.

 

[Rixxan]

If you don't understand what I'm getting at when I reference a character moment being properly earned or not properly earned, then we're not speaking the same language.

What did Arya learn in seasons 5 and 6 that make her any more qualified to be wearing faces and making Frey pies now than she was at the end of season 4? Based on what we were shown, pretty much anyone can walk into the House of Black and White, do some Q&A about who you are and who you aren't, scrub some floors, wash some corpses, get hit with a stick a bunch, and come out the other side an unstoppable assassinating machine.

Wearing a face for the purpose of impersonating someone evidently requires nothing more than possession of the face itself. Apparently, anyone can do it. No magic and no attunement with the Many-Faced God is necessary, because Arya was never on board with any of it. All she did was openly question both Jaqen's teachings and the established rules of this ancient order every step of the way.

Discipline? Not necessary. Infiltration techniques? Never even talked about. Fighting skills? Evidently, not necessary- as she could never manage to compete with the Waif in anything resembling a fair fight.

So, knowing that- why even go to Braavos at the end of season 4? Just cut off some faces and get to fucking work. Arya is a badass assassin not because of anything she learned or earned while in Braavos, but simply because D&D say so, because revenge and The North Remembers and what-fucking-not.

Both of your posts are excellent and I agree with essentially everything you're saying.

That being said I would make note of the fact that Arya is utilizing an incredibly OP technique in face stealing. It allows her to get close enough to someone to slit their throat, and it certainly allows her to sneak into a kitchen and poison some wine.

If she was leaping from the shadows high in the rafters and throwing triple ninja stars into the necks of people, and multi-eviscerating people with backflips and other various assassination techniques I would definitely be taken aback, and it certainly wouldn't be earned.

But what shes doing, beyond knowing the ancient art of face stealing, isn't very impressive, is it?

 

[fuzzyset]

People raise legitimate issues with the long term writing of Arya, but I'm really feeling like this show at this point is doing Jaime dirty. Far from the guy he's become in the books, all he seems to do in the show is hang around next to Cersei vaguely disproving of everything but not doing anything about it like a one handed John McCain. I'm sure he will turn on her at some point but he's sure taking his sweet time. I would have thought blowing up half the city and causing their son's suicide was a last straw kind of thing.

Is it made clear that Jaime knows about this? I'm assuming the public at large doesn't.

 

[ChillWinston]

People raise legitimate issues with the long term writing of Arya, but I'm really feeling like this show at this point is doing Jaime dirty. Far from the guy he's become in the books, all he seems to do in the show is hang around next to Cersei vaguely disproving of everything but not doing anything about it like a one handed John McCain. I'm sure he will turn on her at some point but he's sure taking his sweet time. I would have thought blowing up half the city and causing their son's suicide was a last straw kind of thing.

I guess given they literally cleared out all the King's Landing characters except Cersei last season if he wasn't there Cersei would have no one to talk to except Gregor. It was really notable when Euron showed up on his own and you realize that's literally everyone from that plotline in the scene, him, Cersei, Jaime and a zombie.

Qyburn was there lurking too (although he didn't say anything)

 

[Latvian Hitman]

People raise legitimate issues with the long term writing of Arya, but I'm really feeling like this show at this point is doing Jaime dirty.

You're not wrong.

 

[Cornballer]

I thought this was the biggest TV show in the world and then I read it didn't make top 10 in some article which I find impossible. I think they were counting stuff like the superbowl, its the only way GoT does not break top 10, this is the most popular TV show, right?

Like most things, it depends which metric you're using and which sort of programs you're comparing. It's one of the most popular shows currently airing, but the exact placement differs if we're just talking cable shows (basic or pay?) and whether it's a discussion of first-run live airings, if you include the digital numbers, whether tape-delay is taken into account etc... Every network can and will cut and slice the pie to make their shows look better. I think if you toss everything in there (first run, repeats, DVR, digital platforms, etc...) it comes out on top aside from individual events like the Super Bowl.

 

[Ithil]

Is it made clear that Jaime knows about this? I'm assuming the public at large doesn't.

There's a huge crater in the city and all of Cersei's enemies in the city have been vaporized. He may only have one hand but he can probably put two and two together.

 

[mantidor]

Discipline? Not necessary. Infiltration techniques? Never even talked about. Fighting skills? Evidently, not necessary- as she could never manage to compete with the Waif in anything resembling a fair fight.
.

As I said the story in Braavos was resolved very badly, but there was definitely a whole montage showing all she had to do to learn the techniques, and she ultimately defeated the Waif. She needed to go to Braavos to have any chance in killing the people she wants to kill, because she was just an inexperienced little girl before, and she was very lucky to have survived that long while traveling the Westeros countryside.

 

[Brakke]

If What did Arya learn in seasons 5 and 6 that make her any more qualified to be wearing faces and making Frey pies now than she was at the end of season 4? Based on what we were shown, pretty much anyone can walk into the House of Black and White, do some Q&A about who you are and who you aren't, scrub some floors, wash some corpses, get hit with a stick a bunch, and come out the other side an unstoppable assassinating machine.

Wearing a face for the purpose of impersonating someone evidently requires nothing more than possession of the face itself. Apparently, anyone can do it. No magic and no attunement with the Many-Faced God is necessary, because Arya was never on board with any of it. All she did was openly question both Jaqen's teachings and the established rules of this ancient order every step of the way.

I don't really know why any of this is a problem though. The House of Black and White puts on airs but isn't that truly mystical isn't inconsistent with anything. Faceless Men need people thinking their shit is tricky or nobody pays them. It's just IP protection in a time before patents.

Hell, Mel works the same way. She has a couple real magicks up her sleeve but she's not above just tossing some magnesium on a fire for dramatic effect. The only For Sure Magick she did was the smoke baby, reviving Jon, and then kinda wearing a necklace (which is apparently standard-issue, given the lady in Meereen). And doing the revival apparently isn't that impressive anyway if some drunken barely-a-believer like Thoros can do it, too.

Is it made clear that Jaime knows about this? I'm assuming the public at large doesn't.

C'mon. These people aren't that dumb. Everyone knows Cersei did it. They probably don't gossip though or else her dope new black storm trooper Queen's Guard bop them.

 

[jett]

Ratings:Wow.

Man this show finally broke 10 mill.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Ep 2 preview:

Spoiler

So who is strangling Little Finger in the Episode 2 teaser?

 

[fuzzyset]

There's a huge crater in the city and all of Cersei's enemies in the city have been vaporized. He may only have one hand but he can probably put two and two together.

Maybe he thinks it's one of those "I missed my flight and then the plane crashed" kinda things. Praise the Seven Cersei missed her trial!

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

I mean, they advertise the service as "Cancel at anytime" so they know the score.

 

[Joni]

I'll be happy once Sansa and Littlefinger are killed because of their own machinations. Or like killed because they get stabbed in the back by Nightwalkers when looking to the south for Cersei.

 

[WriterGK]

I really loved it how couple seasons ago alot of Starks were dying and now there actually more Starks almost then Lannisters lol. The scene with Arya before the credits was amazing. I kept thinking something must be happening how could he possibly poison his own men Walder Frey but I didn't expect it to be Arya lol

 

[jett]

Ep 2 preview:

Spoiler

So who is strangling Little Finger in the Episode 2 teaser?

There are two much more important shots in the teaser

Spoiler

Muthafucking Arya looking at Nymeria!?

 

[Moff]

I really loved it how couple seasons ago alot of Starks were dying and now there actually more Starks almost then Lannisters lol. The scene with Arya before the credits was amazing. I kept thinking something must be happening how could he possibly poison his own men Walder Frey but I didn't expect it to be Arya lol

my first reaction was that it was a flashback and we'll see how she kills him, but after he said winter has come and stopped the women from drinking I knew what was up.

 

[Rixxan]

Ep 2 preview:

Spoiler

So who is strangling Little Finger in the Episode 2 teaser?

It's

Spoiler

100% Jon

 

[Azzanadra]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

Why would you be a jerk? Corporations don't have feelings, if anything you should feel happy when you do something like this, like abusing Best Buys rather generous return policy. It's great fun.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Sorry for my spoilers about the Episode 2 teaser. Got excited. THRONES IS BACK Y'ALL!

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Hmmm. I recently read the short story "The Princess and the Queen", which chronicles the civil war between the dowager-Queen Alicent (in King's Landing) and the princess Rhaenyra (in Dragonstone). It was done in 2013, apparently. Seems like history is repeating itself...

 

[jfkgoblue]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

Not at all, I personally keep HBO year round because it has so much great content, but you actually paying for Game of Thrones is miles better than what many people do an pirate.

 

[Werd]

would I be a jerk if I ordered HBO for 2 months and then cancelled it after that?

Last year I did something like... a free cable weekend > free 1 month HBO Now > free 1 week HBO Amazon > paid for a month > cancel.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Last year I did something like... a free cable weekend > free 1 month HBO Now > free 1 week HBO Amazon > paid for a month > cancel.

But now you can't do that because you already used up your free trials.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

That being said I would make note of the fact that Arya is utilizing an incredibly OP technique in face stealing.

It's absolutely OP. My issue is that, apparently, all anyone needs to do in order to pull it off is simply put on a face. Everything else about the Faceless Men and their way of life is just a farce.

She needed to go to Braavos to have any chance in killing the people she wants to kill, because she was just an inexperienced little girl before, and she was very lucky to have survived that long while traveling the Westeros countryside.

Yes- she needed to go to Braavos for those reasons, but we didn't really see her transform into what she is now in any meaningful way. She was a master assassin the moment she stole her first face. The rest was just a bunch of busy work and narrative dead ends.