Support NeoGAF

[Alexlf]

"Sorry, holocaust survivor. It wouldn't serve a purpose to society to jail someone who knowingly played a small part in the murder of your entire family. We have to think of our budget and whether or not it will rehabilitate him."

It depends on what you think people should be incarcerated for. If you think that it's done to protect society/rehabilitate the criminal then there is absolutely zero point.

If you think it should be so that people can get revenge on the people who wronged them, then there is absolutely a point.

I personally wouldn't want to be part of a system that thinks imprisoning people based on a personal sense of satisfaction is a good idea, but c'est la vie.

EDIT:
Some one else says above that we should do it for the sake of the rules existing. That would be a kinda cart-before-horse scenario, wouldn't it? The reason we have laws is for the safety of society, not simply for the sake of it.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Look at the US stats for a second. Prison as a punishment is a fucking terrible philoshophy and does nothing to deter other criminals.

Well, that is just patently false. Prison does effectively deter criminal behavior, what I think you meant to say is that Prison is often ineffective at deterring certain crimes such as non-violent drug crimes. In such cases rehabilitation is the appropriate tool. Justice is not a one type of approach fits all system or at least it should not be. Prison can both punish and rehabilitate depending on the crime and the individual.

 

[Zoned]

Most of you guys don't believe in that Heaven & Hell stuff anyway. So why not punish the guy for all the horrible things he did before he bites it?

This whole "punish" thing seems out of control these days. Everyone is looking for someone's blood even though it doesn't serve any purpose.

 

[Hip Hop]

there's no point in putting decrepit old murderers in jail.

There is.

Keeping him away from his family members during his last days is one.

 

[E92 M3]

Do you get to do that in any military?

I am not an expert, but military does have request for transfer and such. There are options for soldiers. Granted sometimes it's limited, but there are options.

 

[Moff]

What was he doing there if he wasn't helping?

he was an accountant.
and no, being the accountant is not helping any crimes. if that was the case and they found a link between his accounting and the holocaust. he would have been put in jail in the 80s. he was not.

 

[MUnited83]

Ah the same guy who testified against the nazi's after the war at nuremburg, aided the alies, took part in numerous documentaries over the years and whilst there was so disgusted he requested transferring anywhere else (including the front and certain death)

This was a man who joined his national army after being caught up in the propaganda not realising the full horror of what they were, joined what the propaganda considered the elite branch of the military. Then when placed at this death camp and learning the full horror of what his country was doing he requested an out, to go even to his own death and refused. He then completed his job for the short time left of the was (1944 he was sent there iirc)
this was a glorified admin assistant at a Auschwitz and up until this trial he was considered a source, a witness someone to go to for accounts from the german military side, someone so far down on the totem pole of people who deserved punishment he was rightfully ignored.

Now that all those who could be prosecuted who really should be brought to justice have been or died they are scraping the barrel seeking vengeance on anyone - this is vengeance now not justice, this man sought to atone for his 'sins' (of bearing witness and being in the army) and up to now it seemed everyone considered he had.

Get outta here with your facts man, what we clearly need here is mindless revenge no matter what!

 

[LyleLanley]

I'm kind of surprised with the general reaction in this thread. I don't see why this guy should be let off just because he's so old now.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

 

[Zornack]

What do you and others consider "actively involved"?

Being an SS guard at Auschwitz is usually enough for me but this is a strange case. He worked at Auschwitz, so he was obviously involved. But he was only in charge of bookkeeping and transferring Jews off of trains, so he kind of wasn't. But he actively went and joined the SS, so he was involved. But he claims he didn't know what was going on at Auschwitz, so he kind of wasn't

Also, he wasn't found out to have been involved in the Holocaust, he voluntarily came forward to denounce Holocaust deniers. But does that ultimately matter? I don't know.

The point is that there is really no benefit of putting an 80 or 90 year old man behind bars. Waste of money and doesn't serve any purpose apart from boiling vengeance inside.

You're probably right, but it's hard to think this way when you're involved in the crime in some way, even as tangentially as I am. And then I think to myself, if I were standing with a survivor who pointed towards this man and told me, "He was there when I got off the train. He was an active member of the Holocaust," what would I tell them? That he wasn't the one activating the gas chambers, that he wasn't really responsible for the deaths? That it's been a long time, that society doesn't benefit from jailing him? Probably not, and if I couldn't rationalize letting him walk in that situation then I have trouble rationalizing letting him walk today.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Well you had to do some shit to get into the SS. One was prove how Aryan you were with record of your purity going back 100 years.

You don't have any control over your lineage. He just happened to be "lucky" in that respect. Reading the guy's wikipedia page, his father was a diehard German nationalist who lost his business in the economic crash of '29 and blamed it Germany's treatment post-WWI, so he was more or less steeped in this attitude and groomed for it from birth. This doesn't exclude him from responsibility, but I do think it colors his early life decisions in a way worth considering.

To his credit, he has spent years combating holocaust deniers and publicly repudiating his former beliefs. And he has voluntarily remanded himself to the judgment of the court and pled guilty to doing wrong in his time in the SS. He was not an executioner or abusive guard, but rather a guy charged with pawing through the luggage of the arriving prisoners and sending money and valuables along to be used for the war effort. So yeah, he's guilty by his own admission, but there are degrees.

The Holocaust was horror and cruelty on a scale we've scarcely ever seen and I don't think it's been anywhere near long enough to "let go" regarding the atrocities committed. But I'm inclined to think this guy Gröning is a bit of a scapegoat in this situation. You can't hang Hoss again and and Mengele got away, so it seems some are wanting to make do with this guy. Understandable, but punishment should always be in just proportion.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I'm kind of surprised with the general reaction in this thread. I don't see why this guy should be let off just because he's so old now.

There's a large Libertarian presence on GAF who thus favor a more pure utilitarian approach to Justice.

 

[t-ramp]

There's a large Libertarian presence on GAF who thus favor a more pure utilitarian approach to Justice.

I don't think that's it, at all.

You're saying this guy should have spent his life in prison for unintentionally becoming the accountant at Auschwitz, which I disagree with.

 

[Omegasquash]

It depends on what you think people should be incarcerated for. If you think that it's done to protect society/rehabilitate the criminal then there is absolutely zero point.

If you think it should be so that people can get revenge on the people who wronged them, then there is absolutely a point.

I personally wouldn't want to be part of a system that thinks imprisoning people based on a personal sense of satisfaction is a good idea, but c'est la vie.

EDIT:
Some one else says above that we should do it for the sake of the rules existing. That would be a kinda cart-before-horse scenario, wouldn't it? The reason we have laws is for the safety of society, not simply for the sake of it.

I see your logic, however it doesn't address the voice in my post. What are we saying to holocaust survivors that have had so much taken away from them by not prosecuting an straight up Nazi that worked at a death camp?

 

[JeanGrey]

Going to have to agree. He's had to live with what he's done for his entire life. Embarrassment at his age should be enough.

1 question if he was directly involved in the the torture of a human being then he should definitely serve his sentence.

If he was just a guard under military orders and he did not participate in any torture then he has already served his sentence. He shows remorse and openly acknowledges the Holocaust. So ignorant mofos can stop denying it! He seems tormented for life that should be punishment enough.

 

[Drencrom]

Are they sure he was a nazi sympathizer? Lots of germans had not much choice when Germany went into war back then. I guess ending up at Auschwitz without being a sympathizer is pretty unlikely, even though he was 'just' a bag checker.

Either way, what he and his peers at Auschwitz did was utterly horrific and disgusting, but I'm conflicted if this persecution is even worth the resources when he could most likely die any day now. I do think it's fair game to sentence him to prison even after all these years.

Well asked to be moved from the whole environment to a different post.

You can barely do that nowadays, what choice do you think he had back in the 40s when germany was at war and with a desperate nazi regime? He would be labeled a traitor most likely if he was open about being against or not wanting to participate in their endeavors.

 

[Moff]

I see your logic, however it doesn't address the voice in my post. What are we saying to holocaust survivors that have had so much taken away from them by not prosecuting an straight up Nazi that worked at a death camp?

the truth
that the people responsible are either dead, in jail or got away.

 

[lawnchair]

I see your logic, however it doesn't address the voice in my post. What are we saying to holocaust survivors that have had so much taken away from them by not prosecuting an straight up Nazi that worked at a death camp?

my guess would be that there are some holocaust survivors who wouldn't be in favor of jailing this SS guy.

the holocaust survivors are old folks too, often more capable of compassion and forgiveness than the screaming-for-blood young people here. this is purely speculation, of course.

 

[Alexlf]

I see your logic, however it doesn't address the voice in my post. What are we saying to holocaust survivors that have had so much taken away from them by not prosecuting an straight up Nazi that worked at a death camp?

We're saying that we don't prosecute from personal beliefs; that we don't let hate guide who we punish.
We're saying that we don't want to cause suffering unless it is absolutely necessary for the security of society.

Seems like a decent message to me.

 

[Hip Hop]

my guess would be that there are some holocaust survivors who wouldn't be in favor of jailing this SS guy.

the holocaust survivors are old folks too, often more capable of compassion and forgiveness than the screaming-for-blood young people here. this is purely speculation, of course.

source?

 

[PeskyToaster]

There is literally nothing he could have done.



None of that would have stopped the genocide, though.

Yes it would. In fact, that's all it takes. If enough people simply said no the entire thing would have collapsed and millions would be alive. But they said yes.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I'm kind of surprised with the general reaction in this thread. I don't see why this guy should be let off just because he's so old now.

What purpose does it serve? Is any of his "victims" still alive? How did he contribute directly to their pain?

After so long, all those wounds have probably healed. We're literally talking about a lifetime ago.

 

[Jarate]

I see your logic, however it doesn't address the voice in my post. What are we saying to holocaust survivors that have had so much taken away from them by not prosecuting an straight up Nazi that worked at a death camp?

It's a tough decision, but personal emotions shouldnt be the barometer for justice. Im sure many holocaust survivors and families associated with them want anyone even associated with the German Army dead, and honestly, I dont blame those people, but at the same time, that's not a reasonable thing to do, or want.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

source?

Talk with some people of that age and you will get exposed to those viewpoints.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I don't think that's it, at all.

You're saying this guy should have spent his life in prison for unintentionally becoming the accountant at Auschwitz, which I disagree with.

Wrong. That would imply I could prove that he is in fact guilty of aiding in genocide, that is what a trial is for. I am saying that if he were guilty of aiding in genocide that he should go to prison for his crimes. Also, I take issue with you characterization of him "unintentionally becoming an accountant at Auschwitz." He presumably signed up to be a part of the SS, the worst of the worst and the true believers. He may not have volunteered to serve at a concentration camp but he was not "unintentionally" there.

Again, a trial will prove his culpability but his alleged crimes shouldn't be washed away without any trial because "he's old now."

 

[Hip Hop]

Talk with some people of that age and you will get exposed to those viewpoints.

He's talking about a group of people, Holocaust survivors, not just someone that old that didn't go through that experience.

 

[Methos#1975]

Nazis "just following orders" is an acceptable excuse in 2015? Okay...

Well yeah, why would it not be? The level of control and conditioning they had over their own troops due to fear is well documented

 

[Principate]

remember, only 30~% of germans voted Hitler into power, and you were kind of fucked if you were a German Nationalist who didnt support these things

It's not an excuse in the case of extremely vile acts, but if the dude just worked at Auschwitz as a bag checker as he claims, then really, he's easily just a soldier in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They didn't even vote him into power (as in president, chancellor etc). The stupid ass president gave him power and he proceed to politically outmanoeuvred everyone else and crowned himself Führer.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I wonder if all of you pushing for this man's blood would feel the same way if this was a US Citizen who committed wartime atrocities for the US against people in Vietnam, or Kuwait, or Iraq and Afghanistan...

Him being a Nazi doesn't mean punishing him just by association. There are hundreds of thousands of German and non-German people who contributed to the Nazi dictatorship, by force and by volunteering, in multiple positions that wasn't necessarily following orders to pull the switch on those human incinerators or killing people at the camps.

Someone in the thread posted examples of this man trying to rehabilitate and atone for his sins via documentaries and testified against the Nazi's in previous trials. I wouldn't, in good conscience, put this man in jail if he has tried to atone for his complicity in Nazi Germany.

 

[Hip Hop]

Well yeah, why would it not be? The level of control and conditioning they had over their own troops due to fear is well documented

Should they be doing the same, forgiving a lot of mexican cartel members doing the killings/violence down in Mexico, because of "fear"?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Well yeah, why would it not be? The level of control and conditioning they had over their own troops due to fear is well documented

Because it's literally called The Nuremberg Defense

 

[LyleLanley]

What purpose does it serve? Is any of his "victims" still alive? How did he contribute directly to their pain?

After so long, all those wounds have probably healed. We're literally talking about a lifetime ago.

I can't answer any of those first three questions, hopefully the trial will be able to do so. I just don't agree with the idea that he should be let off for his crimes because of his age. I want him to have a fair trial and be punished appropriately. Also, I question the idea that "all of those wounds have probably healed."

 

[Omegasquash]

the truth
that the people responsible are either dead, in jail or got away.

Knowing is not necessarily responsibility, but there's culpability here. He knew, unless I'm totally wrong.

my guess would be that there are some holocaust survivors who wouldn't be in favor of jailing this SS guy.

the holocaust survivors are old folks too, often more capable of compassion and forgiveness than the screaming-for-blood young people here. this is purely speculation, of course.

For sure...I absolutely agree that there are some out there that would and possibly have forgiven. That's up to them. My opinions are simply that, and frankly I wouldn't want my opinion on the matter to have any impact on anyone that survived the atrocity.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that we could sort of shrug and say "well, what's done is done and you're old now" to a Nazi.

 

[gblues]

My take-away from some arguments in this thread:

Baggage cleark in Berlin: No problem! Have a nice retirement, dude!
Exact same duties in Auschwitz: OMG MASS MURDERER GIVE HIM THE CHAIR

The dude reportedly tried to get a transfer and was denied. The only other way out would have been either suicide ("good riddance, Nazi scum!" I hear some of you saying ITT), or abandoning his post which would almost certainly have resulted in his death in one way or another.

And if he had abandoned his post, some other dude would've filled it and we'd be arguing about him instead.

There's no justice being served in prosecuting a Nazi baggage clerk who had zero influence into the operational decisions at Aushwitz, especially since the things he actually did wouldn't even be considered as candidates of war crimes if they'd happened literally anywhere else on the planet than Auschwitz.

 

[Veritigo_X]

he was an accountant.
and no, being the accountant is not helping any crimes. if that was the case and they found a link between his accounting and the holocaust. he would have been put in jail in the 80s. he was not.

Accountants can be accomplices to crimes too. His job was directly related to the holocaust and helping them do what they did. It was far from nothing. I'm not sure what the trial in the 80s revealed, but an SS guard rummaging through the luggage of people about to be mass murdered doesn't exactly sound innocent to me.

 

[Moff]

Knowing is not necessarily responsibility, but there's culpability here. He knew, unless I'm totally wrong.

no you are right, he did know. he even spoke out against holocaust deniers.
how is knowing culpable, though?

Accountants can be accomplices to crimes too. His job was directly related to the holocaust and helping them do what they did. It was far from nothing. I'm not sure what the trial in the 80s revealed, but an SS guard rummaging through the luggage of people about to be mass murdered doesn't exactly sound innocent to me.

no, it doesnt. but they still could not prove any relation between his accounting and the holocaust in the 80s. and that's that.
if you want to put people in jail witthout proof, just because of hearsay or based on what you think is likely, then go ahead. I don't approve but it's exactly what is happening here now.

 

[foxtrot3d]

My take-away from some arguments in this thread:

Baggage cleark in Berlin: No problem! Have a nice retirement, dude!
Exact same duties in Auschwitz: OMG MASS MURDERER GIVE HIM THE CHAIR

The dude reportedly tried to get a transfer and was denied. The only other way out would have been either suicide ("good riddance, Nazi scum!" I hear some of you saying ITT), or abandoning his post which would almost certainly have resulted in his death in one way or another.

And if he had abandoned his post, some other dude would've filled it and we'd be arguing about him instead.

There's no justice being served in prosecuting a Nazi baggage clerk who had zero influence into the operational decisions at Aushwitz, especially since the things he actually did wouldn't even be considered as candidates of war crimes if they'd happened literally anywhere else on the planet than Auschwitz.

Hmmm, I don't think you have been paying attention to this thread as no one is arguing for just a "hapless" person to be put in jail. What they are supporting is an actual trial to determine whether or not the allegations against him are true or not. I don't know I think that's the reason we have a judicial system and all that I might be wrong, I'll go check.

 

[Omegasquash]

We're saying that we don't prosecute from personal beliefs; that we don't let hate guide who we punish.
We're saying that we don't want to cause suffering unless it is absolutely necessary for the security of society.

Seems like a decent message to me.

I have to respectfully disagree. No one is saying that personal beliefs are leading to prosecution, rather a set of laws or rules that are in place for this specific purpose in this specific case. That this specific case is genocide adds weight to that, however it does not at all say that we're letting hate guide who we punish.

I cede your point on suffering, though I do not think he will be placed in a 10x10 cell with bread and water. My gut says that he won't see any actual prison time. Whether it's jail or house arrest or whatever, I stand with whatever the court chooses to decide. They are far more familiar with the details and nuances than I am, and I'm OK with that.

 

[Kettch]

I'm assuming it's based on his word, but he apparently claims he attempted to transfer elsewhere multiple times after witnessing atrocities and was denied each time. I'm not sure what more you can expect someone to do in this situation.

 

[Mudcrab]

My take-away from some arguments in this thread:

Baggage cleark in Berlin: No problem! Have a nice retirement, dude!
Exact same duties in Auschwitz: OMG MASS MURDERER GIVE HIM THE CHAIR

The dude reportedly tried to get a transfer and was denied. The only other way out would have been either suicide ("good riddance, Nazi scum!" I hear some of you saying ITT), or abandoning his post which would almost certainly have resulted in his death in one way or another.

And if he had abandoned his post, some other dude would've filled it and we'd be arguing about him instead.

There's no justice being served in prosecuting a Nazi baggage clerk who had zero influence into the operational decisions at Aushwitz, especially since the things he actually did wouldn't even be considered as candidates of war crimes if they'd happened literally anywhere else on the planet than Auschwitz.

no you are right, he did know. he even spoke out against holocaust deniers.

If the bolded is true then I can't honestly see any other point in prosecuting a 94 year old man other than attempting to satisfy a public thirst for vengeance they can't get anywhere else.

 

[Jarate]

Accountants can be accomplices to crimes too. His job was directly related to the holocaust and helping them do what they did. It was far from nothing. I'm not sure what the trial in the 80s revealed, but an SS guard rummaging through the luggage of people about to be mass murdered doesn't exactly sound innocent to me.

So do you hold every single German culpable for the Holocaust? What about the civilians who built weapons and supplies for the soldiers?

Hell, what about the Americans who actively lent money to Germany before they started their attacks? Arent our banks culpable as well for helping Hitler? That probably helped Nazi Germany far more then this single guy ever did.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Are they sure he was a nazi sympathizer? Lots of germans had not much choice when Germany went into war back then. I guess ending up at Auschwitz without being a sympathizer is pretty unlikely, even though he was 'just' a bag checker.

Either way, what he and his peers at Auschwitz did was utterly horrific and disgusting, but I'm conflicted if this persecution is even worth the resources when he could most likely day any day now. I do think it's fair game to sentence him to prison even after all these years.



You can barely do that nowadays, what choice do you think he had back in the 40s when germany was at war and with a desperate nazi regime? He would be labeled a traitor most likely if he was open about being against or not wanting to participate in their endeavors.

Many of the killing squads were given an explicit choice as to whether or not to massacre Jews and no documented punishments were given for this choice. The Nazi relied on the fact that people would just choose to kill fellow humans and they never had to force anyone.

 

[E92 M3]

You can barely do that nowadays, what choice do you think he had back in the 40s when germany was at war and with a desperate nazi regime? He would be labeled a traitor most likely if he was open about being against or not wanting to participate in their endeavors.

I am not well acquainted with the inner-workings and rules of the German military from back then.

 

[Africanus]

I want to reverse the question for the people on the other side of the fence. What is the point of not putting him in jail? How do we benefit by not jailing him?

I suppose from funds that would be used to jail him. Perhaps allowing him to do a public speaking tour denouncing the Nazis as a former one himself.

I can go either way on this issue really. He did passively support one of the worst genocides in history, but it's the passive part that is the key issue. Also the fact that it's been a lifetime since the event, and he never actively denied or ran away from justice.

I suppose the courts shall decide.

 

[googleplex]

How?

My question also.

 

[Deified Data]

Yes it would. In fact, that's all it takes. If enough people simply said no the entire thing would have collapsed and millions would be alive. But they said yes.

Well, in this instance we're talking about one man, not an entire generation of a country's population.

 

[Alexlf]

I have to respectfully disagree. No one is saying that personal beliefs are leading to prosecution, rather a set of laws or rules that are in place for this specific purpose in this specific case. That this specific case is genocide adds weight to that, however it does not at all say that we're letting hate guide who we punish.

I cede your point on suffering, though I do not think he will be placed in a 10x10 cell with bread and water. My gut says that he won't see any actual prison time. Whether it's jail or house arrest or whatever, I stand with whatever the court chooses to decide. They are far more familiar with the details and nuances than I am, and I'm OK with that.

I agree that a symbolic case wouldn't be such a bad idea.

On the topic of following laws though, I just want to point to my earlier post:

EDIT:
Some one else says above that we should do it for the sake of the rules existing. That would be a kinda cart-before-horse scenario, wouldn't it? The reason we have laws is for the safety of society, not simply for the sake of it.

Perhaps I'm getting a bit too far off topic though because, as you are correctly stating, (and regardless of whether or not they are justified) the laws do exist, and we have plenty of precedence to follow them.

 

[Abounder]

My guess is that he'll be acquitted, which is a rarity for SS concentration camp guards. But if he technically wasn't killing, torturing, or commanding other vile acts (claims to be in logistics) then he will be set free.

This should have been resolved much earlier but it is what it is

 

[Major Williams]

My take-away from some arguments in this thread:

Baggage cleark in Berlin: No problem! Have a nice retirement, dude!
Exact same duties in Auschwitz: OMG MASS MURDERER GIVE HIM THE CHAIR

The dude reportedly tried to get a transfer and was denied. The only other way out would have been either suicide ("good riddance, Nazi scum!" I hear some of you saying ITT), or abandoning his post which would almost certainly have resulted in his death in one way or another.

And if he had abandoned his post, some other dude would've filled it and we'd be arguing about him instead.

There's no justice being served in prosecuting a Nazi baggage clerk who had zero influence into the operational decisions at Aushwitz, especially since the things he actually did wouldn't even be considered as candidates of war crimes if they'd happened literally anywhere else on the planet than Auschwitz.

"Give me liberty, or give me death." Clearly wasn't in his thought process.

 

[DoktorEvil]

So do you hold every single German culpable for the Holocaust? What about the civilians who built weapons and supplies for the soldiers?

Hell, what about the Americans who actively lent money to Germany before they started their attacks? Arent our banks culpable as well for helping Hitler? That probably helped Nazi Germany far more then this single guy ever did.

Henry Ford on Antisemtism