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[HolyBaikal]

I used to not like scanlines very much. I used to remember them from when I was a child. I didn't like them then... it made me want things with better graphics. And it made things look fuzzy. My favourite was to play games was things like Super Eagle when I first discovered them. And now things like Hq4x.

But thanks to NeoGAF, I think I've learned to appreciate them a little more. They make some games look like a tapestry or something. I usually don't like looking at them for long periods of time. But they can be neat to look at. Like they were made of fabric.

I still kind of don't like them sometimes, because they can make things look dark. But I like them more, now.

 

[Peltz]

I remember reading about his previous hack, where he simply drove the colour and sync signals to the electron beam. It really shows the simplicity of RGB, and why it's really the primary mean of displaying stuff on screen. The original signal goes straight from the PPU to the beams themselves and is directly useable without any decoding, processing or what have you. CRT are lag-free, the only delay is the speed of electricity in your AV cable (≈half the speed of light).

[edit] Don't try this at home guys, there is a very real risk of death when manipulating the insides of a CRT.

That's what you call a die hard videophile.

Anyway, I finally got to the ice/snow levels in DKC on SNES. I never had the opportunity to enjoy this game back in the 90s, and I first got the cart back when I was in my composite to HDTV 10 year dark period.

Now that I'm playing the game properly (i.e. via RGB on a PVM and/or on XRGB Mini depending on the day), I'm truly able to appreciate the artistic merit of this game. Rare really had talented graphics artists back then to make such a superb looking game. For me, it went from the absolute ugliest 240p game I owned to perhaps my favorite-looking SNES game. It even looks nicer than Yoshi's Island to my eyes which is saying a lot.

Of every 240p game I've played, DKC is the one that truly benefits most from scanlines. They are simply essential to that game. I weep for those who will download this game on Wii U's virtual console and judge the graphics based on the way it looks via unfiltered emulation. It's really unflattering.

Edit - Here are some screenshots.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144516841&postcount=407

 

[sixteen-bit]

Have you played DKC2? I think it's way better than the first one. I agree scanlines are a must for those games, but I still don't think the art has aged well, lol

 

[Peltz]

Have you played DKC2? I think it's way better than the first one. I agree scanlines are a must for those games, but I still don't think the art has aged well, lol

I have not, but thanks for letting me know. I will absolutely pick it up after I beat DKC.

 

[televator]

Haha, I don't know I just expected it for some reason to look good... actually, the quality it produced reminded me exactly of the time I used to own that terrible Scart to HDMI or Scart to Component converter box. I'll report back later with PVM results when I can do it.

Well yeah, its a lower resolution, and was a prominent resolution for use with scanlines which an HD TV won't do. It would be worse than looking at a youtube vid in 360p on an HD TV. This is exactly why people use framemeisters for old 240p consoles.

 

[BONKERS]

Interesting RGB TV mod
http://mikejmoffitt.com/wp/?p=284

I know for a fact that my 27" Phillips CRT is RGB native and does YUV>RGB conversion somewhere. This'd be a cool mod if I wasn't afraid of the TV exploding. I'm deathly afraid of the innards of a CRT haha.

TV is too big too anyways. I have a 20" GE "Stereo monitor" from 1992 that only has composite in, but there are markings on the casing for where S-Video would be on a step-up model maybe. And also a bunch of holes for where pots would be to adjust the geometry and other stuff. (They still have the labels and everything>

The composite input soldering has come loose over the years so I have to fandangle a cork screw between that and the other RCA connectors to get the connection to be made correctly.

I want to say I doubt it does RGB, but this'd be a really awesome mod to do if I could make it work. Then I could give the set to my brother, who needs something like this for older consoles. Could hack up an expansion box or something that takes RGB+Csync on Yellow RCA to it maybe.

Only problem is the inside of the TV looks like this > http://i.minus.com/ibg7qmNHvpKxRN.JPG

I am deathly afraid to clean it. Anyone know proper procedure to discharge it so it's safe to work on?

 

[Khaz]

All CRT do RGB*, that's how they show you a picture, the main difficulty is to find where to piggyback the signals.

Cool link: http://www.mrjentis.com/computer_monitor.html

*presuming they are compatible with the horizontal refresh rate ie 15 or 31kHz.

 

[entremet]

It is possible to connect a Wii via RGB?

My Wii has become my retro machine via the VC. Much cheaper than eBay and not as legally questionable as other options.

It doesn't have everything but it has a lot and it supports native resolutions.

The Neo Geo emulation is fantastic as well.

 

[baphomet]

It is possible to connect a Wii via RGB?

My Wii has become my retro machine via the VC. Much cheaper than eBay and not as legally questionable as other options.

It doesn't have everything but it has a lot and it supports native resolutions.

The Neo Geo emulation is fantastic as well.

A pal Wii can.

 

[D.Lo]

It is possible to connect a Wii via RGB?

My Wii has become my retro machine via the VC. Much cheaper than eBay and not as legally questionable as other options.

It doesn't have everything but it has a lot and it supports native resolutions.

The Neo Geo emulation is fantastic as well.

PAL Wii only, but any Wii can do it if hacked to a PAL system menu.

Best bet is a PAL Wii running an NTSC Wii shop. This can be done via some tricky home-brew stuff. I run a PAL Wii in PAL output made using the JP Wii shop.

And yes, it's got by far the best commercial or non-commercial emulation anywhere.

 

[Peltz]

PAL Wii only, but any Wii can do it if hacked to a PAL system menu.

Best bet is a PAL Wii running an NTSC Wii shop. This can be done via some tricky home-brew stuff. I run a PAL Wii in PAL output made using the JP Wii shop.

And yes, it's got by far the best commercial or non-commercial emulation anywhere.

By the way, Wii U seems to be scaling NEO GEO games from Wii-mode VC in from 480i to 1080p. It looks like a mess (just like MegaMan 9). Stay away from this at all costs.

Other games from Wii-mode VC look like you'd expect (e.g. 240p or 480p upscaled to 1080p). They just seemed to have screwed up NEO GEO games. They look very noisy and there's some sort of bizarre frame dropping occurring during the Wii U's upscale.

 

[missile]

I remember reading about his previous hack, where he simply drove the colour and sync signals to the electron beam. It really shows the simplicity of RGB, and why it's really the primary mean of displaying stuff on screen. The original signal goes straight from the PPU to the beams themselves and is directly useable without any decoding, processing or what have you. ...

Indeed. But the simplicity of RGB was known ever since, yet it wasn't
applicable considering the limited transmission bandwidth (~6MHz) and the
inability of successfully limiting (in bandwidth) the RGB model with respect
to human vision due to its inter-channel correlation contrary to the YIQ/YUV
model for example.

... CRT are lag-free, the only delay is the speed of electricity in your AV cable (≈half the speed of light). ...

Depends on the signal processing within a CRT. There is a bit more lag in a
standard CRT TV than just the speed of electricity esp. in color CRT TVs,
which needs compensation if you don't want to see shifted (delayed)
component images on the screen. For example, the Y component needs to be
delayed due to the color processing circuits taking longer. In the earlier
days of NTSC there was even a delay for one of the chroma components (the I
component, I guess) necessary due to the different bandwidths of these
components (different low-pass filters applied) making it necessary to even
delay the I component if you want the Q component to match with the I component
on the screen.

This is all quite delicate, indeed, and the resulting lag is less than 1ms, but
not considering it would degrade the picture quality on an objective level.

And btw Khaz; there are also CRTs with just two guns, two phosphors, mixing
their colors out of two primaries. Yet very rare.

 

[Khaz]

.

Well of course, I'm only talking about videogame consoles. Broadcast signals are a different beast entirely. And in that regard, the processing delay is present only when using encoded signals like RF, Composite, S-Video, Component (or for short, everything based on NTSC / broadcast signals). You do have a delay due to the console encoding the signal, then the TV decoding it. Which is really my point: when the hardwares are so close to each other, there is no reason to have broadcast bottlenecks at all, apart from badly designed hardware.

Related:
This decoding delay isn't long enough to mess with Light guns, though I wonder if it's the cause of the slight shift to the left I have noticed on my RGB Light gun games? I have no NTSC cables to compare it with, but when I cheat and put the gun right next to the tv, I noticed the impact point is a couples mm to the left of the gun barrel centre. This is something experienced by many French Master System owners, a console that only outputs RGB, because France I suppose.

And btw Khaz; there are also CRTs with just two guns, two phosphors, mixing
their colors out of two primaries. Yet very rare.

Oh, I'm curious to learn how they work. They must have had quite a limited colour range?

 

[Peagles]

PAL Wii only, but any Wii can do it if hacked to a PAL system menu.

Best bet is a PAL Wii running an NTSC Wii shop. This can be done via some tricky home-brew stuff. I run a PAL Wii in PAL output made using the JP Wii shop.

And yes, it's got by far the best commercial or non-commercial emulation anywhere.

I wonder if you have a good resource for switching eShops like that? I bought a Wii for $1 with a faulty disc drive and got it all homebrewed up with Letterbomb. I thought since I can't use discs I may as well use it as a VC machine via RGB on my PVM, but I don't want PAL VC, lol.

 

[D.Lo]

I wonder if you have a good resource for switching eShops like that? I bought a Wii for $1 with a faulty disc drive and got it all homebrewed up with Letterbomb. I thought since I can't use discs I may as well use it as a VC machine via RGB on my PVM, but I don't want PAL VC, lol.

Anyregionchanger, which installs 3.1 of a region system menu on the console, then I think it's called shopchannnelupdater. Been many years however, not sure if it still works? But I still have a PAL Wii that connects to the JP shop.

 

[Peagles]

Anyregionchanger, which installs 3.1 of a region system menu on the console, then I think it's called shopchannnelupdater. Been many years however, not sure if it still works? But I still have a PAL Wii that connects to the JP shop.

Thanks, I'll follow the trail and hopefully find something! Yay for being on holiday hehe

 

[sixteen-bit]

My Life In Gaming takes on RGB for newcomers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlrdCBjUAQ

 

[baphomet]

Very informative video. I'm sure it will help a lot of people understand the differences even if they don't fully grasp them.

 

[Khaz]

My Life In Gaming takes on RGB for newcomers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAlrdCBjUAQ

Wow, that's a very good video, with clear explanations about everything related to video signals and their carrier cables. Really well written.

 

[Peltz]

I learned quite a bit from that video.

 

[BONKERS]

By the way, Wii U seems to be scaling NEO GEO games from Wii-mode VC in from 480i to 1080p. It looks like a mess (just like MegaMan 9). Stay away from this at all costs.

Other games from Wii-mode VC look like you'd expect (e.g. 240p or 480p upscaled to 1080p). They just seemed to have screwed up NEO GEO games. They look very noisy and there's some sort of bizarre frame dropping occurring during the Wii U's upscale.

MM9 looks fine on my Wii U in 1080p. /Shrug Not seeing any noise or inadvertent flickering from interlacing

 

[NormalFish]

So I realize this is a rather broad question, but If I am looking for a PVM monitor, what specifically am I looking for? Any specific models or features that I really want?

 

[baphomet]

So I realize this is a rather broad question, but If I am looking for a PVM monitor, what specifically am I looking for? Any specific models or features that I really want?

Rgb inputs are the main thing.

 

[NormalFish]

Rgb inputs are the main thing.

Yeah, I've got that. Is there anything else of note? Certain settings or something, or is it really that loose?
**
Also are most 3rd party PS2 Component cables good?

 

[baphomet]

Yeah, I've got that. Is there anything else of note? Certain settings or something, or is it really that loose?
**
Also are most 3rd party PS2 Component cables good?

If you end up looking at Sonys the ones branded with HR Trinitron are usually 7-800 lines which will give a better picture. The sticker on the back should show the year. Assume they have all been rode hard, so newer generally has a better chance of less hours on it. If you are able to test something on it, even if its composite, do it to see if there are any major geometry issues. Keep in mind you'll need an rca to BNC connector to even plug composite into a pvm. Very few models do 480p. A 20L5 is the main one I see out there. Google the model number and check the stats. Don't spend too much. Some people think these are still worth $500. I try to keep under $100-130 for a 20'' and $50-70 for a 14''.

I think that covers most everything to look for.

3rd party ps2 cables are kinda a crap shoot. Some cause awful artifacting. My third party ones also work for the Xbox and they look identical to my official Sony cables.

 

[Timu]

**
Also are most 3rd party PS2 Component cables good?

Some are, some aren't, best to go official.

 

[goldenpp72]

Where is the cheapest place to get a framemeister these days?

 

[NormalFish]

If you end up looking at Sonys the ones branded with HR Trinitron are usually 7-800 lines which will give a better picture. The sticker on the back should show the year. Assume they have all been rode hard, so newer generally has a better chance of less hours on it. If you are able to test something on it, even if its composite, do it to see if there are any major geometry issues. Keep in mind you'll need an rca to BNC connector to even plug composite into a pvm. Very few models do 480p. A 20L5 is the main one I see out there. Google the model number and check the stats. Don't spend too much. Some people think these are still worth $500. I try to keep under $100-130 for a 20'' and $50-70 for a 14''.

I think that covers most everything to look for.

3rd party ps2 cables are kinda a crap shoot. Some cause awful artifacting. My third party ones also work for the Xbox and they look identical to my official Sony cables.

Thanks much. I'll look around a bit, for now. Not in any rush.

Where is the cheapest place to get a framemeister these days?

I'm guessing you'll be looking for a new one at 290 USD. Cheaper than that is probably a damn good deal. As with most niche products, should probably hunt around a bit.

 

[Bar81]

Where is the cheapest place to get a framemeister these days?

http://solarisjapan.com/collections/micomsoft/products/xrgb-mini-framemeister-compact-up-scaler-unit

 

[Huggers]

Made a vid about my BVM pick up http://youtu.be/Fb1zPp5GZSo

Hope this is okay to post mods!

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Made a vid about my BVM pick up http://youtu.be/Fb1zPp5GZSo

Hope this is okay to post mods!

I enjoyed all of your vids, man. Except for your love for SCIV as GOAT, your tastes agree with me. Nice choice of Road Rash music during the traveling montage and of the Scarface song during your CV vid. Wish I could get my hands on a BVM or 20" PVM around here, but I felt your excitement and anticipation for your new CRT, at least vicariously. Excellent stuff.

 

[Huggers]

I enjoyed all of your vids, man. Except for your love for SCIV as GOAT, your tastes agree with me. Nice choice of Road Rash music during the traveling montage and of the Scarface song during your CV vid. Wish I could get my hands on a BVM or 20" PVM around here, but I felt your excitement and anticipation for your new CRT, at least vicariously. Excellent stuff.

Ah thanks dude! Cheers for watching. I'd say the Super CV IV obsession is mainly nostalgia based. Something about that game...

Well spotted on the music btw, glad the random pop culture references aren't wasted!

Yeah as I said in the vid, BVM's are well worth the effort but I know how hard they can be to track down. Thanks again mate

 

[GayForMaster]

When you've got a device that only outputs with HDMI cables at (720p or 1080i), what is the best way to go about converting hdmi into something a Sony PVM 20L5 can read? I remember being told on here that for a Dreamcast the best way to get 480p is to get a Toro, and have a Scart Male to Male from the Toro to the Scart-to-PVM adapter. Would I be doing something similar like that? HDMI cable to Scart to Scart-to-PVM adapter? Or would I get a HDMI to component and use BNC adapters to connect it?

 

[baphomet]

You don't want to be upscaling and then downscaling the image. Best thing to do is take whatever is upscaling out.

 

[GayForMaster]

You don't want to be upscaling and then downscaling the image. Best thing to do is take whatever is upscaling out.

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean. You know I just did a bit of reading and apparently SDI on a PVM is the output for HD? Should I be converting my HDMI cable to SDI then?

 

[baphomet]

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean. You know I just did a bit of reading and apparently SDI on a PVM is the output for HD? Should I be converting my HDMI cable to SDI then?

What specifically are you trying to plug in?

If you're trying to plug a ps4 or retron 5 into a PVM it's not going to work. Not only that but it will look significantly worse than hooking it up to a flat panel.

 

[GayForMaster]

What specifically are you trying to plug in?

If you're trying to plug a ps4 or retron 5 into a PVM it's not going to work. Not only that but it will look significantly worse than hooking it up to a flat panel.

My 360 or PS3 I guess. I kinda wanted to see what 720p looks like.

 

[baphomet]

My 360 or PS3 I guess. I kinda wanted to see what 720p looks like.

Then use component for them.

 

[GayForMaster]

Then use component for them.

My 360 doesn't do component lol. Just composite and HDMI.

 

[NormalFish]

My 360 doesn't do component lol. Just composite and HDMI.

are you sure? I thought I had YPbPr cables for my 360

 

[Timu]

My 360 doesn't do component lol.

What? 360 can do it, mine can!

 

[Peagles]

AFAIK all 360s do component.

 

[baphomet]

He's right, they removed component from the E apparently. That's possibly the dumbest fucking thing ever outside of the Wii mini removing online.

You could to HDMI to component, but for that price you could probably buy a 360 that does component and VGA and get a much better picture.

 

[NormalFish]

In fact, I checked and my YPbPr cables seem to be the same ones that I got out of the box with the system.

Also: I've read a bit and there seems to be some inconsistency regarding PS2 cables. Apparently the NTSC-J and NTSC-U plugs are not the same? And even more concerning, only certain models of PS2 are compatible with component cables? Can anyone confirm/deny/clarify?
**

He's right, they removed component from the E apparently. That's possibly the dumbest fucking thing ever outside of the Wii mini removing online.

You could to HDMI to component, but for that price you could probably buy a 360 that does component and VGA and get a much better picture.

bizarre...

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Also: I've read a bit and there seems to be some inconsistency regarding PS2 cables. Apparently the NTSC-J and NTSC-U plugs are not the same? And even more concerning, only certain models of PS2 are compatible with component cables? Can anyone confirm/deny/clarify?

I don't think so. I picked up a D-terminal cable for my US PS2 from Japan and haven't seen anything that suggests that the pin-outs differ between regions.

 

[GayForMaster]

Like Baphomet said, heh. I should have said my console was an E model. It really doesn't do component at all. Pretty weird.

 

[NormalFish]

At risk of spamming up the thread... I think I'm probably going to settle on a Framemeister, as opposed to a new CRT.

If I am going to play a NTSC-U (and potentially a NTSC-J) PS2 for both PS1 and PS2 games via the XRGB, what cables do I need? I really do not understand all the adapters, and every time I think I have it down something else catches my eye and I'm back to square one. A very basic talk-through would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Peagles]

Like Baphomet said, heh. I should have said my console was an E model. It really doesn't do component at all. Pretty weird.

Wow, I learnt something new today then, heh.

Spoiler

Don't buy later model consoles lol

 

[Sixfortyfive]

If I am going to play a NTSC-U (and potentially a NTSC-J) PS2 for both PS1 and PS2 games via the XRGB, what cables do I need? I really do not understand all the adapters, and every time I think I have it down something else catches my eye and I'm back to square one. A very basic talk-through would be greatly appreciated.

The user-friendly solution for PS2 is to get high-quality component cables and a component to D-terminal adapter. This gives you access to progressive scan for games that support it and the versatility to connect it directly to both the Framemeister and any TV with component inputs, be they SD or HD sets.

RGB is an option, but I forget the details on how 480p works that way.

 

[Bar81]

He's right, they removed component from the E apparently. That's possibly the dumbest fucking thing ever outside of the Wii mini removing online.

You could to HDMI to component, but for that price you could probably buy a 360 that does component and VGA and get a much better picture.

And optical out iirc - it's a complete pos.