Bar81
Member
Nice. Csync for dummies - that is the clearest explanation I've seen - essential watching.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Nice. Csync for dummies - that is the clearest explanation I've seen - essential watching.
megamanfan1500
Neo Member
So, I've got a question regarding my CRT. It's a Sony 32 inch, from 2006. It has this issue where the screen will, very slightly, "wobble". It's most notable on the edges of characters (be it numbers, letters, sprites). It's not a big issue, but I didn't know if anyone else has experienced this? Is it only an issue with CRTs 32 inches and above?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
What model TV do you have, and do you notice this effect on all games or only some?
I imagine that the effect you're talking about is most prominent on 480i content (which is what you'd get from any system from the Dreamcast/PS2 era or later when using standard yellow composite cables), and that's normal. I know that some Gamecube games of that era had a "Deflicker" setting in the options to mitigate this somewhat.
megamanfan1500
Neo Member
Thank you for the response, its a KV-32FS120, and it happens no matter what the content. The menus and channel number, etc. all slightly wobble. You have to be sitting rather close to see it though. I am aware of the "480i" wobble when displaying that content, and this is slightly different..sort of worried that my CRT is on the way out...
My Framemeister arrived this morning and I've been testing it the entire day and well... I'm a bit disappointed.
Maybe I was simply expecting too much, but the difference isn't always all that clear to me. Especially the N64 output over the Framemeister is disappointing. Majora's Mask was a blurry mess on my HDTV and with the Framemeister it just seems like an equally blurry mess with somewhat less blurry fonts. I guess the N64's output is to blame.
Maybe I was simply expecting too much, but the difference isn't always all that clear to me. Especially the N64 output over the Framemeister is disappointing. Majora's Mask was a blurry mess on my HDTV and with the Framemeister it just seems like an equally blurry mess with somewhat less blurry fonts. I guess the N64's output is to blame.
NormalFish
Banned
I think N64 is probably going to be the least obvious improvement since its games just aren't very attractive.
entremet
Member
How are you connecting your N64? S-Video? The N64 doesn't support RGB out of the box. It needs mods.
Yep, I recently upgraded to S-video on my N64, which was already a noticeable improvement over composite. Sadly, I have one of those N64 models that's hard to RGB mod.
What? S-video is the best output on a unmodded N64.
So I guess my best bet for playing N64 games is either buying a CRT TV or doing a very risky RGB mod then? I was hoping the Framemeister would make the N64 playable again, but I guess it can't work miracles. I'll just use it for my other retro consoles then, the improvements were more noticable on Gamecube and SNES.
Anyways, thanks for the help!
NormalFish
Banned
What? S-video is the best output on a unmodded N64.
He means that the fact that he's using S-Video [instead of RGB as on -- say -- PSone] accentuates the issue of N64 already not looking so hot.
Bar81
Member
Thank you.
Bar81
Member
Np. Btw, you can get premodded N64 systems from members on these forums. As far as I know a system is either moddable or it's not.
Ah, makes sense.
I think all are moddable now due to a new piece of kit, but the ones that were previously not moddable are much more expensive/difficult.
Bar81
Member
goldenpp72
Member
How much?
As always, can vouch for top notch mod work from baphomet ^_^
baphomet
Member
You in the states?
You were the member I was thinking of
Much appreciated! I'm going to pm you some pics later tonight of your stuff. It looks super slick hooked up to my Supergrafx
I've only done the 1, but it looks and works perfectly!
Bar81
Member
Yup, you're right although the later models method means that the RGB is unlikely to look as good from what I understand.
baphomet said:Much appreciated! I'm going to pm you some pics later tonight of your stuff. It looks super slick hooked up to my Supergrafx
I've only done the 1, but it looks and works perfectly!
Very hyped; those amps are supposed to produce amazing image quality.
I'm thinking about picking up a small desktop CRT VGA monitor purely for Dreamcast games. Any thoughts on some good ones?
I figure, why the hell not? I already have small monitors for 240p content. I might as well get something for 480p stuff from my DC. They certainly are common and cheap enough, and nobody seems to want them anymore.
I know these CRTs are never precisely 480p. So, what resolution should I be shooting for to have the best look from Dreamcast's 480p games? What else should I be thinking about to have the best possible Dreamcast experience?
Also, is there any reason (other than space) why I'd want to go with an LCD over a CRT for DC?
I figure, why the hell not? I already have small monitors for 240p content. I might as well get something for 480p stuff from my DC. They certainly are common and cheap enough, and nobody seems to want them anymore.
I know these CRTs are never precisely 480p. So, what resolution should I be shooting for to have the best look from Dreamcast's 480p games? What else should I be thinking about to have the best possible Dreamcast experience?
Also, is there any reason (other than space) why I'd want to go with an LCD over a CRT for DC?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Well, those do exist, but you'd have to go back really far to find one. Who knows how hard it would be to track down one in good shape.
My only advice is to try before you buy. With a VGA box and the DC 240p Test Suite in tow (can be burned straight to disc and used without modding the console), it shouldn't be too hard.
If you don't already have a VGA box, pick up one of the Beharbros devices. I'm partial to the Kuro, as I think a lot of the extra features in the later models aren't needed. (Scanline generator is pointless for 480p content and redundant if you're already using an XRGB for 240p content. The Toro would probably be appealing when used in conjunction with a Framemeister, though.)
Nope. Flatpanels have an extra drawback for the Dreamcast when compared to other VGA sources because the DC VGA signal is a little weird; it's 640x480 active pixels (VGA standard) pillar-boxed into a 720x480 frame (NTSC standard). LCDs tend to fuck up the horizontal scaling as a result.
So I think I am finally giving up on getting a PVM monitor. This is the second time I ordered through ebay only to have the PVM arrive where it isn't working and the insides are busted apart.
There are no PVMs locally in my area. Oh well, I guess its back to the 20" Emerson CRT TV.
There are no PVMs locally in my area. Oh well, I guess its back to the 20" Emerson CRT TV.
That sucks. I'm looking for a Professional CRT also. I'll be sure to share if I find any good sources.
baphomet
Member
You can't really ship one of them without having it likely mess up on the way. You just have to check Craigslist regularly and you'll find one eventually locally.
Much appreciated, thanks!
Yeah, I think your right. Hopefully one will show up on Craigslist one of these days. I really wanted to try RGB out without having to go the Framemeister route.
sixteen-bit
Member
I live for Phonedork videos, lmao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmVE-S8L774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmVE-S8L774
Hmm, this might explain why I'm content with my N64 RGB while nobody else here seems to be.
NormalFish
Banned
I don't think I've ever watched one of his videos front-to-back, but this is gold. Lots of good stuff in there, and I like his straight up way of speaking.
Pretty much any CRT computer monitor will have a native 640x480 mode, just look for a decent brand in the size you want. I'd stick with CRT over LCD as well if you have the space, you'll generally get a better picture.
NormalFish
Banned
So Component->Dterminal or Euro SCART w/ Adapter for upscaling PS2 via XRGB Mini? I'd like to get one or the other. Keeping in mind I'm also using it for PSone gaming.
I really am surprised how little information there is for the PS2/NGC/Xbox in comparison to the older consoles. I'll be happy once this tech adventure of mine is over.
Also: Is there any reason why using my 1080p monitor would be worse than my 1080p TV for this same purpose?
Also #2: Are PAL and NTSC A/V cables interchangeable or do the PS2s have different connectors?
I really am surprised how little information there is for the PS2/NGC/Xbox in comparison to the older consoles. I'll be happy once this tech adventure of mine is over.
Also: Is there any reason why using my 1080p monitor would be worse than my 1080p TV for this same purpose?
Also #2: Are PAL and NTSC A/V cables interchangeable or do the PS2s have different connectors?
For PS 1 to 3 they are all universal, with the exception that PS1 can't do component.
NormalFish
Banned
Can't do component as in if I hook my ps2 up via component ps1 games won't display?
No no no PS1 games running on a PS2 will work fine, I meant only actual PS1 systems.
NormalFish
Banned
Okay, that answered one of my big concerns. Wonderful.
Managed to find a few people elsewhere who had their ps2 set ups optimized. Going with component. Might get a set of scart cables eventually but for now component seems easiest. Ordering my framemeister next week.
I'm fine with it too. The color vibrancy is insane in RGB.
I love phone dork's shots at Adam's shit scaler. Plus, he actually shows how he hooks up all these contraptions. OMG that's just what I need to see.
Bar81
Member
Definitely a good vid but all the muscles were extremely distracting - I need my dorks stereotypical
D.Lo
Member
I had to skip lots of the video because honestly was so slow. Wish he'd get to the point quicker. But what was the conclusion?
I don't understand the issue. Some games on N64 look bad, some look good. Duh.
For what it's worth, I see what he sees. N64 looks far better on my PVM than anything else I've used. In other words, it looks better with my 600 line monitor than my 750 line monitor. And of course, it looks like a mess on the framemeister.
I guess N64 is just built for thin scanlines?
ehnox
Member
Thats so sad =( . I think I got lucky, my BVM14G5U came very but very well wrapped up with a ton of air bubble plastic , a HUGE box with 4 layers of cardboard in front of the monitor. The post office delivery it here at my home in one piece.
Sometimes is better paying more for an express shipping.
ehnox
Member
My rgb modded n64 looks great on my BVM
However , some games are so compressed to fit the cart ram size, that some textures will look like crap, and more crap on HDTVs no matter how good your conection are. As seen on this article from wikipedia:
"Graphically, results of the Nintendo cartridge system were mixed. The N64's graphics chip was capable of trilinear filtering,[47] which allowed textures to look very smooth. This contrasted with the Saturn and PlayStation, which used nearest-neighbor interpolation[48] and produced more pixelated textures."
"However, the smaller storage size of ROM cartridges limited the number of available textures. As a result, many games were forced to 'stretch' textures over larger surfaces. Compounded by a limit of 4,096-bytes[49] allocated for texture storage, the end-result was often a distorted, out-of-proportion appearance. Some games, such as Mario Party 2, use a large amount of Gouraud shading or very simple textures to produce a cartoon-like image, which largely avoided the texture-stretching issue. Cartridges for some later games, such as Resident Evil 2, Sin and Punishment: Successor of the Earth, and Conker's Bad Fur Day, featured more ROM space,[50] allowing for more detailed graphics."
The antialising filter is the real problem perhaps
However , some games are so compressed to fit the cart ram size, that some textures will look like crap, and more crap on HDTVs no matter how good your conection are. As seen on this article from wikipedia:
"Graphically, results of the Nintendo cartridge system were mixed. The N64's graphics chip was capable of trilinear filtering,[47] which allowed textures to look very smooth. This contrasted with the Saturn and PlayStation, which used nearest-neighbor interpolation[48] and produced more pixelated textures."
"However, the smaller storage size of ROM cartridges limited the number of available textures. As a result, many games were forced to 'stretch' textures over larger surfaces. Compounded by a limit of 4,096-bytes[49] allocated for texture storage, the end-result was often a distorted, out-of-proportion appearance. Some games, such as Mario Party 2, use a large amount of Gouraud shading or very simple textures to produce a cartoon-like image, which largely avoided the texture-stretching issue. Cartridges for some later games, such as Resident Evil 2, Sin and Punishment: Successor of the Earth, and Conker's Bad Fur Day, featured more ROM space,[50] allowing for more detailed graphics."
The antialising filter is the real problem perhaps
Long story short, he tried it on the Framemeister, two larger monitors with thick scanlines, and finally on a 14" with thin scanlines. He much preferred the latter option for both N64 and NES, and concluded perhaps this was the best way to play both.
I use a 14" PVM so that's why I thought I might be in the minority of enjoying N64 in RGB.
sixteen-bit
Member
Yo dawg...
NormalFish
Banned
that CRT is so nice...
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