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US Power Will Decline Under Trump, Says Sociologist Who Predicted Soviet Collapse

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Johan Galtung, a Nobel Peace Prize-nominated sociologist who predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, warned that US global power will collapse under the Donald Trump administration.

The Norwegian professor at the University of Hawaii and Transcend Peace University is recognized as the ‘founding father’ of peace and conflict studies as a scientific discipline. He has made numerous accurate predictions of major world events, most notably the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

Galtung has also accurately predicted the 1978 Iranian revolution; the Tiananmen Square uprising of 1989 in China; the economic crises of 1987, 2008 and 2011; and even the 9/11 attacks—among other events, according to the late Dietrich Fischer, academic director of the European University Center for Peace Studies.

Back in 2000, Galtung first set out his prediction that the “US empire” would collapse within 25 years. After the election of President Bush, though, he revised that forecast five years forward because, he argued, Bush’s policies of extreme militarism would be an accelerant.

After the election of Trump, I thought it might be prudent to check in with Galtung to see how he was feeling about the status of his US forecast. Galtung told Motherboard that Trump would probably continue this trajectory of accelerated decline—and may even make it happen quicker. Of course, with typical scientific caution, he said he would prefer to see what Trump’s actual policies are before voicing a clear verdict.

The model

Galtung has doctoral degrees in both sociology and mathematics, and some decades ago developed a theory of “synchronizing and mutually reinforcing contradictions”, which he used to make his forecasts. The model was based on comparing the rise and fall of 10 historical empires.

In 1980, Galtung used his theoretical model to map the interaction of various social contradictions inside the Soviet empire, leading him to predict its demise within 10 years.

“Very few believed him at the time”, writes Dietrich Fischer in the main biography and anthology of Galtung’s works, Pioneer for Peace, “but it occurred on November 9, 1989, two months before his time limit, 1990.”

For the USSR, Galtung’s model identified five key structural contradictions in Soviet society which, he said, would inevitably lead to its fragmentation—unless the USSR underwent a complete transformation.

The model works like this: the more those contradictions deepen, the greater the likelihood they will result in a social crisis that could upend the existing order.

Eventually, as the highly centralised structures of the Soviet empire were unable to accommodate these intensifying pressures, the top-down structures would have to collapse.

Galtung later began to apply his model to the United States. In 1996, he wrote a scientific paper published by George Mason University’s Institute for Conflict Analysis & Resolution warning that “the USA will soon go the same way as [previous] imperial constructions… decline and fall.”

Fascism?

But the main book setting out Galtung’s fascinating forecast for the US is his 2009 book, The Fall of the American Empire—and then What?

The book sets out a whopping 15 “synchronizing and mutually reinforcing contradictions” afflicting the US, which he says will lead to US global power ending by 2020—within just four years. Galtung warned that during this phase of decline, the US was likely to go through a phase of reactionary “fascism”.

He argued that American fascism would come from a capacity for tremendous global violence; a vision of American exceptionalism as the “fittest nation”; a belief in a coming final war between good and evil; a cult of the strong state leading the fight of good against evil; and a cult of the “strong leader”.

All of which, Galtung said, surfaced during the Bush era, and which now appear to have come to fruition through Trump. Such fascism, he told Motherboard, is a symptom of the decline—lashing out in disbelief at the loss of power.

Among the 15 structural contradictions his model identifies as driving the decline, are:

economic contradictions such as ‘overproduction relative to demand’,

unemployment and the increasing costs of climate change;

military contradictions including rising tensions between the US, NATO, and its military allies, along with the increasing economic unsustainability of war;

political contradictions including the conflicting roles of the US, UN and EU;

cultural contradictions including tensions between US Judeo-Christianity, Islam, and other minorities;

and social contradictions encompassing the increasing gulf between the so-called ‘American Dream’, the belief that everyone can prosper in America through hard work, and the reality of American life (the fact that more and more people can’t).​

Galtung’s book explores how the structural inability to resolve such contradictions will lead to the unravelling of US political power, both globally, and potentially even domestically.

For Galtung, Trump’s incoherent policy proposals are evidence of the deeper structural decline of US power: “He [Trump] blunts contradictions with Russia, possibly with China, and seems to do also with North Korea. But he sharpens contradictions inside the USA”, such as in relation to minority rights.

On the one hand, Galtung said, Trump might well offer an opportunity to avoid potential conflicts with great power rivals like Russia and China—on the other, he may still, stupidly, fight more unilateral wars and worsen domestic contradictions relating to minorities.

Motherboard asked Galtung whether he thinks Trump would speed up his forecast of “collapse”, or slow it down.

Even if we give Trump the benefit of the doubt, he said, and assume that he “prefers solving underlying conflicts, particularly with Russia, to war—in other words for the US not be imperial—then yes, that still speeds up the decline from above, and from the center… Of course, what he does as a President remains to be seen.”

But what exactly is collapsing?

“An empire is more than violence around the world,” said Galtung. “It is a cross-border structure with a center, the imperial country, and a periphery, the client countries. The point about imperialism is to make the elites in the periphery do the jobs for the center.”

The center country may be a dictatorship or a democracy. So for Galtung, the collapse of the US empire comes “when the periphery elites no longer want to fight US wars, no longer want to exploit for the center.”

For Galtung, a key sign of collapse would be Trump’s attitude to NATO. The President-elect has said he would be happy to see NATO break-up if US allies aren’t willing to pay their dues. Trump’s ‘go it alone’ approach would, Galtung said, accelerate and undermine US global empire at the same time.

“The collapse has two faces,” said Galtung. “Other countries refuse to be ‘good allies: and the USA has to do the killing themselves, by bombing from high altitudes, drones steered by computer from an office, Special Forces killing all over the place. Both are happening today, except for Northern Europe, which supports these wars, for now. That will probably not continue beyond 2020, so I stand by that deadline.”

US break-up?

But this global collapse, also has potential domestic implications. Galtung warned that the decline of American power on the world stage would probably have a domestic impact that would undermine the internal cohesion of the United States:

“As a trans-border structure the collapse I am thinking of is global, not domestic. But it may have domestic repercussion, like white supremacists or even minorities like Hawaiians, Inuits, indigenous Americans, and black Americans doing the same, maybe arguing for the United States as community, confederation rather than a ‘union’.”

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/us...p-says-futurist-who-predicted-soviet-collapse

Interested in gaf's take on this.
 

sflufan

Banned
American power has been in decline since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The Trumpster Fire administration will only accelerate the already-established momentum.
 

Amir0x

Banned
American power has been in decline since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The Trumpster Fire administration will only accelerate the already-established momentum.

If you read the article and quotes, it says precisely that - he revised forward his timeline for American collapse by five years after Bush and his military policies provided an accelerant.
 
Agreed 100%. I ask my Trump voting family members to define 'soft power' and it was a foreign concept. The voting public is too acquiescent, too self centered to ever consider the larger implications.

Not only that but his corporate croneyism displayed already proves in public a significant amount of the anti-US propaganda claims about money and greed in America.

Basically- like so many times before- America is proving it is no different from the rest of the world and that exceptionalism can eat a fucking landmine. That means a lot for trading partners and the soft dominance we've enforced through violence, like the scholar states.
 

Blader

Member
No kidding. Backing America out of global climate action just on its own will cede an enormous amount of power and influence to China.
 

watershed

Banned
That's a pretty safe bet. Trump is unintetested in maintaining our network of allies, he is opening the door for Russia in Europe and other regional conflicts, and his policies will hurt us domestically.
 

FZZ

Banned
I mean yeah I've already come to terms with this

If China plays their cards they'll be the number 1 power faster than expected as well

rn tho it's mainly US losing its spheres of influence, then everything else will follow

That's a pretty safe bet. Trump is unintetested in maintaining our network of allies, he is opening the door for Russia in Europe and other regional conflicts, and his policies will hurt us domestically.

China is poised to become the number 1 power in the world, not Russia
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
While I agree with many of his sentiments, I am weary of his more radical beliefs:

Wikipedia said:
In 1973, Galtung criticised the "structural fascism" of the US and other Western countries that make war to secure materials and markets, stating: "Such an economic system is called capitalism, and when it's spread in this way to other countries it's called imperialism", and has praised Fidel Castro for "break[ing] free of imperialism's iron grip". Galtung has stated that the US is a "killer country" guilty of "neo-fascist state terrorism" and compared the US to Nazi Germany for bombing Kosovo during the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.

I really don't know enough about the Kosovo bombings, but at face value that comparison sounds pretty sensational.
 

Betty

Banned
No! America will be great again! You'll see!

Very interesting thoughts though, I mean it seems obvious when you point it out but trump supporters really are feeling the decline first hand and desperately turned to someone they thought could change things for the better.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I've tried explaining some of these issue to the more ardent Trump supporters I know and its like trying to explain the internet to a cave man. Worse its a cave man that doesn't want to listen in the first place.
 
With the rising oil prices Russia's economy will somehow recover in the next years, while China playing it's long game.

It's kind of obvious.
 
The country is already recognizable as two seperate ideologies that are get further entrenched in complete loss of communication. You could argue it's a country of two or more Nations already.

Secession may be one of the only relatively peaceful solutions if things get worse. Though those demographic changes aren't going anywhere. The country may well simply change. It'll be interesting to say the least.

The tension between the individual states and the federal government seems to be becoming bigger.
 
No kidding. Backing America out of global climate action just on its own will cede an enormous amount of power and influence to China.

Yep we could have become world leaders in clean energy tech and distribution and export, but now COAL MINES!!! China is going to lap us now and before you know it all of our clean energy options will be imported with a 35% tariff tax, because isn't fracking great?

Trump likes comparing us to third world countries so much, well we are going to be compared to them when it comes to energy. That alone makes us a much weaker country.
 

Espada

Member
Yup, that one point of allies becoming uncooperative is something a lot of people gloss over.
Huge chunks of our influence abroad comes from being allies with many nations, losing our spheres of influence would severely damage our global influence. And like he said, that would likely prompt the dumbasses here at home to impose our will via violence. Which then leads to a loss of credibility, soft power, and makes us look even worse.

We've been in decline for a while, mainly due to the structural contradictions he mentions (and as we've discussed in numerous threads our complete inability to address them effectively).

The real wrinkle is just how dramatic the domestic decline will be.

Yanipheonu said:
The country is already recognizable as two seperate ideologies that are get further entrenched in complete loss of communication. You could argue it's a country of two or more Nations already.

Secession may be one of the only relatively peaceful solutions if things get worse. Though those demographic changes aren't going anywhere. The country may well simply change. It'll be interesting to say the least.

The tension between the individual states and the federal government seems to be becoming bigger.

The demographic changes mean nothing, especially with our white supremacist assholes running around. There are too many countries where a demographic minority controls most of the country's wealth, politics, entertainment, etc... You'd just see even scummier bullshit in order for them to retain control.
 

Abounder

Banned
We'll make a comeback with India. Loved this line though: "And turn foreign policy from US interventions—soon 250 after Jefferson in Libya 1801—and not use wars (killing more than 20 million in 37 countries after 1945): A major revitalization! Certainly making ‘America Great Again’. We’ll see.”

Now that's change I could believe in, but just don't see it happening anytime soon thanks to presidential precedents from Obama and Co. Our presidents minus Carter are warmongers.
 
I think he's on the right track, but things can still go in a number of directions that don't involve something resembling a collapse. I do think that we really have been in serious decline since Reagan took office, but the turn feels like it started with Vietnam and Watergate. Our stupidity following 9/11 and invading Iraq was the point where we needed to hit the brakes and make a course correction by following the path partially tread by Obama, but now we're instead running full speed into what feels like a wall with Trump and the incoming administration giving Republicans the keys to the kingdom. I cannot imagine anything positive for 99% of the population over the next decade and, for the first time ever, I have no real optimism about the country's future. Shit's bad and gonna get worse.
 
I think Trump is a disaster, but this guy sounds like a crackpot semi-conspiracy theorist. The article reads like the script of those History Channel shows on Nostradamus.
 
it was nice knowing you USA GAF, time to move GAF servers to a .cn domain

but seriously speaking, the president after trump is gonna feel the
future
shitshow left behind him
 

Foffy

Banned
I felt and would argue it's on a decline anyway.

The problem is that decline was a slow cook. Trump is literally a pool of accelerant to all of the problems facing America, and thus makes declines far more steep.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Way to many things can happen to ever take things like this as fact. World history is full of events that changed the preconceived notion of what was going to happen.
 

sflufan

Banned
Way to many things can happen to ever take things like this as fact. World history is full of events that changed the preconceived notion of what was going to happen.

No one is taking it as "fact". However, there is little doubt that American power has been in decline for more than a decade and the incoming "administration" is unlikely to reverse that course.

Furthermore, the internal domestic forces of American society are very much going in different directions which does nothing to enhance a global power presence.
 
As long as America has a strong military, American power wouldn't decline. It might become less visible ubder Trump but wouldn't decline. And Trump is all for pumping more money in the military.
 

reckless

Member
I mean maybe. Every major power has a lot of problems now or coming up soon. Trying to predict anything right now seems like just pure guesses.
 

Ac30

Member
As long as America has a strong military, American power wouldn't decline. It might become less visible ubder Trump but wouldn't decline. And Trump is all for pumping more money in the military.

It will when you don't respect the interest of your allies. Trump giving NATO the middle finger is a great way to lose the allies you've had for generations, and no amount of military hardware will make up for that.
 

Foffy

Banned
Yay for Accelerationism.

Unfortunately, such measures are not only a last gasp of desperation within the current status quo - the precariat in America wanting their lives/hopes returned in rural America as this system/country really doesn't have good answers for the future we face - but it will also force the realization that the system itself has failed. People want this model to work for them: the problem is the model itself no longer works. Neoliberal policies of the last few decades have us here, and if you mix that with the current themes of Capitalism...well, the negation of human labor is furthermore emphasized. This is bad for a jolts cult culture.

Look at Trump like a really, really bad patch of an operating system that had enough problems before he arrived. Maybe, if people stop getting conned into emotional politics, they will see we need a new OS, not a man planning to patch it up.
 

sflufan

Banned
The fact of the matter is that the ENTIRE Western World (especially Western Europe) has been in decline for decades now. It's just that the "Anglo-American Order" that acted as a guarantor of global stability in the 20th and early 21st centuries has finally come to an ignoble end.
 

Joni

Member
This will be bad if it gives stage to Russia, good if this means the EU and China start giving more counterweight.
 

sflufan

Banned
This will be bad if it gives stage to Russia, good if this means the EU and China start giving more counterweight.

The European Union is practically on life support. I am of the opinion that the EU will cease to exist within 10 years.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Buy gold and bunker supplies everyone. There's still some left from 2009 when Republicans thought Pres. Obama would destroy the US.
 
The problem is that the USA is the hostility for innovation and future economic shifts.

Renewable energy is dominated by Chinese companies.
China outspends everyone in robotics and automation.
And things that China is already the largest market for e-cars or the political will to do super sized science projects like building the fastest supercomputers to research facilities.
 

Ogodei

Member
Militarily i don't see it happening anytime within the next 25 years unless our collapse is quick and ruinous. There's simply no-one there to take the reigns, as much as Russia is trying. China only just bought a junk Ukrainian aircraft carrier a few years ago and is very focused on their near-abroad. Russia, for most of their bluster and Syrian adventure, is also focused on their near-abroad, although they have the infrastructure where they could ascend to superpower status, and Russia's always closer because their sheer size means that they are immediately a force to be reckoned with in Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia, and East Asia, meaning they only need to "project" into Africa and the Americas. China needs to project to be felt anywhere except East and Central Asia, and that takes a long time even without anyone standing in your way.
 
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