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[Panda1]

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/5066...-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

Has everyone in America forgotten they are the number 1 country for fucking up other countries ???
Until I get apologies from the US government about election interfering a big dose of shut the fuck up should be administered.

I'd like some anti Trumpers to help me on this one . When Hillary hacked Angela merketls phone and the United nations that ok but when Russia are supposed to have attempted to do similar that s the end of the world. Help me understand the hypocrisy and blindness.
Or is it just a simple case of cognitive dissonance?

Also Dan Carlin had a good podcast on this a few weeks ago. Will America sign a mutual we won't interfere in other countries elections?pmsl of course fucking not.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Personally, I think meddling is meddling.

However, you are right to point out that some perspective is needed i.e. the calls of "treason" and "act of war" from warmongering politicians is not only uncalled for, it's downright frightening.

Oh sure, sure. Trump is gonna kill us all with his racism and pussy-grabbing, but actual calls for warfare are cool. Y'know, cause reasons.

 

[norm9]

America shouldn't do it either.

 

[Tesseract]

in before whataboutism complaints?

*dances*

 

[Shiki_]

US government != US citizens

I mean, are you ok OP?

 

[TheMikado]

Good to know. Seems like the take away lesson is DONT MEDDLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES ELECTIONS.

 

[Rentahamster]

Also Dan Carlin had a good podcast on this a few weeks ago. Will America sign a mutual we won't interfere in other countries elections?pmsl of course fucking not.

I find it ironic that one of the factors of the migrant crisis in Europe and the immigrant controversy in the Americas is that the USA has been fucking up the Middle East and South America for decades. If we hadn't done that, maybe their homes would be much nicer and they wouldn't need to risk their lives to flee to a first world country.

 

[norm9]

So are you for or against hacking, OP?

 

[cryptoadam]

I am pretty sure that what Mueller is doing is probably breaking some sort of understanding the big nations across the world have. I don't believe for a minute that China/Saudi/EU/Israel aren't trying to interfere in US elections and or other elections. This is probably a well known secret for intelligence communities but they don't go exposing it because the US is doing the same shit across the globe as well.

I said in another thread set up a special counsel to investigate China or Saudi attempts to "influence" the election, give unlimited resources, budget and power and that counsel will be able to find something and indict a bunch of foreigners.

If some random Russian lady can do it you don't think China can? Or MI-6 or Mossad or Germany? How many honey pots do they have roming around Washington.

If American's should take anything from this is that they need to secure their election process better, and vett it for corruption better.

 

[Fox Mulder]

I'd care more if Russia actually hacked any votes for Trump.

I don't care about leaks or Twitter bots influencing people. Giant corporations and billionaires influence every election too.

 

[Panda1]

US government != US citizens

I mean, are you ok OP?

Thats right so I imagine there have been protest even bigger than this for all of those by Americans - asking for governed for explanations. Im 40 but dotn remember any - can you link me to some that have made 2 year news cycles?

Shiki you must be really angry with your government - the one that represents you not Russia and Id love to see some of your posts and protests against them ? again i must have missed it somehow considering the USA interference killed millions.

 

[12Goblins]

right now we are witnessing a wild trumpet having a mental breakdown because he cannot cope with the fact that he was duped by a well known con man.

 

[LordPezix]

but when Russia are supposed to have attempted to do similar that s the end of the world.

Sounds like you've become a victim of the power of influential media and the inter-webs.

It is still nice and sunny outside, don't worry friend. The world is not ending today.


Usually double standards are applied when concerning the actions of the US compared to the rest of the world. It is hard for people to admit they were or were apart of something that was wrong.


Russia interfering with our elections (if it is true), is wrong, no doubts. US interfering with elections is also wrong, but because we aren't hurt by it, we often don't care.


And if we are being honest my friend, the US has a lot of double standards, but this isn't about giving an impasse here.

Are we hypocrites? You would be considered a fool to believe we aren't. Do we not do anything about election tampering of our nation? No, we must act in accordance with our laws.

 

[PkunkFury]

So are you for or against hacking, OP?

clearly he's against it, but doesn't want to be against it just this minute, because he doesn't think it's fair to be against it now, since he's built a straw man out of the idea that no one was against it when it didn't benefit him. So it seems he wants it to skate for today, but he will be happy to be against it in the future when it benefits him to do so. This is the problem with logical fallacy

The most interesting part is when he sources NPR (American National Public Radio) to point to America's hypocrisy concerning election meddling. Seems pretty progressive that America criticizes it's own practices via national broadcast. Is Russia criticizing Putin's hacking? Also funny how the OP brings up hacking Merkel's phone. I don't remember anyone in the USA being upset about that, or the other NSA stuff. That shit really flew under the radar. I wonder if the same people who are patrons of NPR are the ones who are unhappy Trump is a Russian puppet?

And this is the problem with Whataboutism, it exposes your own hypocrisy in an attempt to broadly generalize hypocrisy in a host of people you can't properly target. You end up making false assumptions, while showing your own ass. If you hate election meddling, why not speak out about it now, while you have the chance? While it's happening? Your mostly seeing Amercans voices now because it's presently affecting them. It's not hypocrisy, it's apathy

This is also OPs third Whatabout in the past 7 posts. Reeks of desperation

 

[Sapiens]

Hur hur, you got us bro.

 

[Panda1]

So are you for or against hacking, OP?

Everything has to be on a case by case basis.

Someone said dont interfere with elections ! how sweet you are.

Lets have two examples.
1. Country A notices country B elections race are showing a new President that has stated he wants to go to war with country A, the other candidate says he has no issue with Country A and wants to side with them.
What should Country A do? Nothing and wait to be attacked or try to help the other candidate to maintain peace in their country?

2. Country A will lose lots of money if i Country B an unpopular candidate is chosen due to their economic position. Does Country A do nothing or try to help the rival candidate.

These things are not black and white and every country like each of us are out for their own best interests. I have experience the real world and the in the real world it realpolitik not team sports around your party of choice.

 

[TrainedRage]

right now we are witnessing a wild trumpet having a mental breakdown because he cannot cope with the fact that he was duped by a well known con man.

What does this have to do with the OP?

 

[Panda1]

I find it ironic that one of the factors of the migrant crisis in Europe and the immigrant controversy in the Americas is that the USA has been fucking up the Middle East and South America for decades. If we hadn't done that, maybe their homes would be much nicer and they wouldn't need to risk their lives to flee to a first world country.

Its almost as we need a travel ban on Americans! If Americans stayed in America would not that be nice! its a big place lots of things to see.

 

[Panda1]

in before whataboutism complaints?

*dances*

I dont think you understand what whatsboutism means. In this case their is both a moral equivalence and a large dose of hypocrisy to eat before we play the whataboutism card

 

[Panda1]

clearly he's against it, but doesn't want to be against it just this minute, because he doesn't think it's fair to be against it now, since he's built a straw man out of the idea that no one was against it when it didn't benefit him. So it seems he wants it to skate for today, but he will be happy to be against it in the future when it benefits him to do so. This is the problem with logical fallacy

The most interesting part is when he sources NPR (American National Public Radio) to point to America's hypocrisy concerning election meddling. Seems pretty progressive that America criticizes it's own practices via national broadcast. Is Russia criticizing Putin's hacking? Also funny how the OP brings up hacking Merkel's phone. I don't remember anyone in the USA being upset about that, or the other NSA stuff. That shit really flew under the radar. I wonder if the same people who are patrons of NPR are the ones who are unhappy Trump is a Russian puppet?

And this is the problem with Whataboutism, it exposes your own hypocrisy in an attempt to broadly generalize hypocrisy in a host of people you can't properly target. You end up making false assumptions, while showing your own ass. If you hate election meddling, why not speak out about it now, while you have the chance? While it's happening? Your mostly seeing Amercans voices now because it's presently affecting them. It's not hypocrisy, it's apathy

This is also OPs third Whatabout in the past 7 posts. Reeks of desperation

I never once said anything about if I was pro or against. But its amazing how you can read minds! And if you read my post which I made before this - you will find its Russia duty to make sure they get the best deal for their people. If they think hacking and helping Trump helps them then they have to do it. Just like when their were WMDs in Iraq USA HAD to intervene and get involved.

And your right an NPR piece criticising it is exactly the same as a 2 year 20 million dollar investigation - its EXACTLY the same level of holding people to account!!!

 

[Tesseract]

I dont think you understand what whatsboutism means. In this case their is both a moral equivalence and a large dose of hypocrisy to eat before we play the whataboutism card

i mean, i don't disagree with you.

 

[dionysus]

Since Eastern Europe including Russia are now democracies and most are not rigging elections, Radio Free Europe has a lot of similarities to Russian propaganda trying to stir up unrest in the US.

Should Russia go to war with us over Radio Free Europe? The anti-Russia rhetoric in the US needs to be toned way down.

 

[PkunkFury]

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/5066...-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

Has everyone in America forgotten they are the number 1 country for fucking up other countries ???

Apparently, no

the article you posted is from American National Public Radio

Until I get apologies from the US government about election interfering a big dose of shut the fuck up should be administered.

Americans have every right to not want their elections interfered with, much like anyone who America has interfered with has the right to go after them

I'd like some anti Trumpers to help me on this one . When Hillary hacked Angela merketls phone and the United nations that ok but when Russia are supposed to have attempted to do similar that s the end of the world. Help me understand the hypocrisy and blindness.
Or is it just a simple case of cognitive dissonance?

No hypocrisy. The NSA was severely rebuked by Americans when that came to light. If Germany feels that America has not made up for transgressions against Merkel, they should speak up. I would stand by Germany in this case, and I suspect a good chunk of America would as well

The USA still does not know the extent of Russia's meddling. But we do have a pretty little picture of our president as Putin's Poodle on international newspapers. This seems to have gone a bit farther than Russia hacking Trump's phone. US citizens want more information so they can understand how we've been compromised and how that will affect future elections. Can you blame them?

Also Dan Carlin had a good podcast on this a few weeks ago. Will America sign a mutual we won't interfere in other countries elections?pmsl of course fucking not.

will Russia?

seems to me it makes more sense for countries to defend themselves when it happens, which is exactly what Americans are attempting to get their government to do

 

[12Goblins]

OP doesn't realize that this is a well known fact agreed upon by everyone at this point.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

One example of that was our intervention in Serbia,
SHAPIRO: The U.S. is arguably more vocal than any other country about trying to promote democracy and democratic values around the world. Does this strike you as conflicting with that message?

LEVIN: It depends upon if we are assisting pro-democratic side - could be like in the case of Slobodan Milosevic that I talked about earlier. I believe that that could be helpful for democracy. If it helps less-nicer candidates or parties, then naturally it can be less helpful.


in the 2000 election there. Slobodan Milosevic was running for re-election, and we didn't want him to stay in power there due to his tendency, you know, to disrupts the Balkans and his human rights violations.

So we intervened in various ways for the opposition candidate, Vojislav Kostunica. And we gave funding to the opposition, and we gave them training and campaigning aide.

SHAPIRO: The U.S. is arguably more vocal than any other country about trying to promote democracy and democratic values around the world. Does this strike you as conflicting with that message?

LEVIN: It depends upon if we are assisting pro-democratic side - could be like in the case of Slobodan Milosevic that I talked about earlier. I believe that that could be helpful for democracy. If it helps less-nicer candidates or parties, then naturally it can be less helpful.

 

[Panda1]

OP doesn't realize that this is a well known fact agreed upon by everyone at this point.

So why is it such news when another country is doing it! if its well known this should not be news....so you are saying this is because is Trump!!

 

[dolabla]

Russia (or whomever it was) hacked the election to show us how Hillary was rigging the election (Bernie, receiving questions before a debate). We weren't supposed to know these dirty little secrets

 

[AgentP]

I seem to remember the right beating up the left for decades over pointing out anything negative that the US had every participated in. Invading countries, torture, etc. The right always wrapped themselves in the flag and attacked the messenger as unpatriotic. Now that their man is trouble, they attack the media, the FBI, CIA and now the US in general. How things have changed.

 

[cryptoadam]

I seem to remember the right beating up the left for decades over pointing out anything negative that the US had every participated in. Invading countries, torture, etc. The right always wrapped themselves in the flag and attacked the messenger as unpatriotic. Now that their man is trouble, they attack the media, the FBI, CIA and now the US in general. How things have changed.

Its almost as if both sides will just argue against whatever the other side is doing, flipping and switching their position to fit their argument.

Right says the sky is blue the left will argue its red. And then if the left agrees its blue the right will argue its red the next day.

 

[Arkage]

OP: "America meddled in other countries so Americans should not be upset if Russia does it to them."

The correct statement: "America meddled in other countries so Americans should not be surprised if Russia does it to them."

Any country's citizens have an obligation to be upset if there is election meddling, especially when living in a democracy that values a fair election system, as it means the country is vulnerable to manipulation. I really don't understand your point.

 

[PkunkFury]

Everything has to be on a case by case basis.

great, I agree!

So where do you stand on the case of America being hacked by Russia?

Someone said dont interfere with elections ! how sweet you are.

Lets have two examples.
1. Country A notices country B elections race are showing a new President that has stated he wants to go to war with country A, the other candidate says he has no issue with Country A and wants to side with them.
What should Country A do? Nothing and wait to be attacked or try to help the other candidate to maintain peace in their country?

2. Country A will lose lots of money if i Country B an unpopular candidate is chosen due to their economic position. Does Country A do nothing or try to help the rival candidate.

These things are not black and white and every country like each of us are out for their own best interests.

Totally understandable that other countries want what's best for their country. I've played Civ, I've sent spies as delegates and I've installed puppet governments

You can't prevent countries from acting in their own self interest. Hence why I said earlier: "seems to me it makes more sense for countries to defend themselves when it happens, which is exactly what Americans are attempting to get their government to do". So why condemn American people for defending themselves, while also rebuking the USA meddling in other elections? You just admitted that all countries do this for their own benefit, so the only stance I can see you taking that is not biased is that citizens should not care and should just let it happen. Is that the stance you are taking?

What you are not addressing is the fact that members of the country that is targeted may be helping the attack. Hence the case with Trump and team. The purpose of the investigation is to route out traitors in our own government. Russia will be rebuked, but we are not trying to go to war with them. As you pointed out, it's reasonable to expect this from Russia. But is it reasonable to expect this from fellow citizens?

I have experience the real world and the in the real world it realpolitik not team sports around your party of choice.

as have I

 

[12Goblins]

So why is it such news when another country is doing it! if its well known this should not be news....so you are saying this is because is Trump!!

because a con man celebrity teamed up with Russian intelligence to hijack the american democratic process?

 

[Panda1]

because a con man celebrity teamed up with Russian intelligence to hijack the american democratic process?

What exactly did they do since there is zero evidence of collusion and the investiagtion has cleared Trum of collusion.
You provably think Obama is a Kenyan ISIS fighter too and 2Pac is well and alive on the moon? Is it so hd of you to bring facts to the table instead of your feelings?

 

[Catphish]

in before whataboutism complaints?

*dances*

*plays fiddle*

 

[PkunkFury]

I never once said anything about if I was pro or against. But its amazing how you can read minds! And if you read my post which I made before this - you will find its Russia duty to make sure they get the best deal for their people. If they think hacking and helping Trump helps them then they have to do it. Just like when their were WMDs in Iraq USA HAD to intervene and get involved.

And your right an NPR piece criticising it is exactly the same as a 2 year 20 million dollar investigation - its EXACTLY the same level of holding people to account!!!

So you want 20 million dollar investigations for each of the 81 instances that the US meddled in other countries affairs, is that the end game? The US is spending this money defensively, so in theory you should be asking the countries that the US meddled with to run expensive investigations... Russia isn't paying for the Mueller investigation. Thus, the question is whether or not it is worth it for the US to spend money to defend it's democratic systems. My opinion is yes

Further concerning price, the Mueller investigation is still under the cost of various Clinton / Reagen era investigations. It will get more expensive. Should we have investigated Iran Contra? How about Lewinski?

Finally, you asked "Has everyone in America forgotten they are the number 1 country for fucking up other countries ???" I answered by pointing out you answered your own question in the first line of your post, by sourcing an American account of these instances. You did not ask why they haven't all had expensive investigations

So why is it such news when another country is doing it! if its well known this should not be news....so you are saying this is because is Trump!!

It's news because Trump is allowing it to happen. He is siding with the people who are accused of wrongdoing over his own intelligence committee, then pretending he misspoke even though he's been saying that shit forever.
If Merkel had said "That's okay, let the US hack my phone" I bet Germany would've made that big news as well

Curious, are you even American? That may explain why you don't think this is such a big deal, but I also have to wonder why you are so invested in stopping the investigation if you aren't

What exactly did they do since there is zero evidence of collusion and the investiagtion has cleared Trum of collusion.
You provably think Obama is a Kenyan ISIS fighter too and 2Pac is well and alive on the moon? Is it so hd of you to bring facts to the table instead of your feelings?

the investigation has not cleared Trump of collusion, where are you getting this info?

Also, there is not "0 evidence of collusion". Collusion is not a crime, so that word isn't helpful here, and we also don't have any evidence yet because there has been no trial, but we do have the information in the indictments and affidivat that tell us some of what the DOJ has and is confident about:

We know they have evidence of the hacks taking place via Dutch intelligence, to the point that they know specifically which people did the hacking (via the cctv footage).
We also know they have enough evidence to make the following assertions:

• At least one member of congress and one reporter requested the stolen information.
• Someone close to the Trump campaign coordinated the release of the leaked material
• A Russian agent was working with Trump since 2015
• Said agent setup channels of communication between Republican leadership and the Kremlin using the NRA
• Multiple US persons, including another congressman, were involved in coordinating with this Russian agent
• Russians had a hand in choosing Trump's secretary of state
• probably some stuff I missed, I haven't followed this too closely

And this is definitely not everything they have, it's what they felt necessary to include to get these first few indictments

 

[888]

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/5066...-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

Has everyone in America forgotten they are the number 1 country for fucking up other countries ???
Until I get apologies from the US government about election interfering a big dose of shut the fuck up should be administered.

I'd like some anti Trumpers to help me on this one . When Hillary hacked Angela merketls phone and the United nations that ok but when Russia are supposed to have attempted to do similar that s the end of the world. Help me understand the hypocrisy and blindness.
Or is it just a simple case of cognitive dissonance?

Also Dan Carlin had a good podcast on this a few weeks ago. Will America sign a mutual we won't interfere in other countries elections?pmsl of course fucking not.

I posted this in another thread. It was disregarded as not the same thing and a different discussion lol.

 

[Scopa]

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/5066...-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

Has everyone in America forgotten they are the number 1 country for fucking up other countries ???
Until I get apologies from the US government about election interfering a big dose of shut the fuck up should be administered.

I'd like some anti Trumpers to help me on this one . When Hillary hacked Angela merketls phone and the United nations that ok but when Russia are supposed to have attempted to do similar that s the end of the world. Help me understand the hypocrisy and blindness.
Or is it just a simple case of cognitive dissonance?

Also Dan Carlin had a good podcast on this a few weeks ago. Will America sign a mutual we won't interfere in other countries elections?pmsl of course fucking not.

As an Aussie watching this shitshow with amusement from afar, I completely agree with you OP and I have been saying the same the whole time.

The hypocrisy is astounding and people who refuse to acknowledge it just sound like “baa baa” mindless sheep.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

I'd care more if Russia actually hacked any votes for Trump.

I don't care about leaks or Twitter bots influencing people. Giant corporations and billionaires influence every election too.

At the end of the day people are individuals. If people want to be misinformed or duped that is entirely in the realm of their freedom of will. We should hold businesses to higher standards. Our governments should make sure our market place of ideas and the roads to them, physical and digital, are safe from prying eyes. Outside of that... the government shouldn't coddle anyone's stupidity. If they get in that business they'll never get out.

 

[rokkerkory]

Has any of those countries president deny and denounce their own intel agencies i wonder.

 

[bucyou]

in before whataboutism complaints?

*dances*

DANCE OFF!

*sips tea*

 

[Barsinister]

And we would have gotten away with it, too! If it wasn't for you meddling kids!

 

[TheLaughingStock]

in before whataboutism complaints?

*dances*

I don't understand why people are falling back on the oh that's just whataboutism argument so often. I guess it's a convenient deflection. However, saying something true doesn't mean hypocrisy carries no weight or that you can't be defamed based off past actions. If you've done something as egregious or worse, then you better believe someone is going to air out your dirty laundry and rightfully want to know who the hell you think you are.

For example, if Kim Jong-Un lectured Trump about violating human rights and folks brought up how he has his people mutilating pregnant women in gulags, then he can't handwave that away with oh that's just whataboutism. Kim could have truth overflowing out of his mouth about all the bad things Trump has done until the cows come home. His hypocrisy is still a big deal.

In any case, I don't think many Americans are aware of how many times this has happened. More than 80 times from 1946-2000 is a lot, but I guess most of the countries were weak so America just rolled over them. So, I don't think anyone has forgotten about it but rather they're oblivious to it.

A mutual treaty to not hack could be a great idea. America has a lot to lose from cyber war or a military confrontation. A lot of their adversaries have a tiny economy, weak institutions, and lower living standards in comparison. It'd be another asymmetrical conflict.

 

[gohepcat]

What exactly did they do since there is zero evidence of collusion and the investiagtion has cleared Trump of collusion.

This right here is a perfect example of how fucked up things are right now. There is a whole separate set of news for people like Panda1. This person actually believes that Trump has been cleared of collusion because Trump keeps saying that he has been cleared of collusion. This isn’t based in any sort of reality. That is fucked up and incredibly scary.

This is why people are freaking out. Because the president of the United States tweets crazy shit and then people like you repeat it. Does that not worry you? It scares the shit out of me.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

Literally, the special counsel is still investigating

Somehow, the second round of indictments means the investigation has come to a close or a conclusion to some people?

This shit is so frustrating, because I know why certain people are doing it, but it affects other people.

 

[Barsinister]

Hey, G gohepcat , we get it! You don't like trump! Your breath stinks of it. You don't have to go and belittle a man because he wants to believe his President, do you? What do you want to have a go at next? The decadent West? Capitalism? Can't wait for the revolution, can you?

 

[gohepcat]

Hey, G gohepcat , we get it! You don't like trump! Your breath stinks of it. You don't have to go and belittle a man because he wants to believe his President, do you? What do you want to have a go at next? The decadent West? Capitalism? Can't wait for the revolution, can you?

Love the West and capitalism has been very very good to me. That’s why I don’t want the country and the world to be destabilized by this obvious idiot.

The idea that the only ones who are against Trump are people with Ben Shahn paintings and a copy of The Grapes of Wrath in their back pocket is ridiculous.

I want people to stand up to this shit. I want to people to be better than this, and I don’t want this garbage to go unchallenged here.

P.S. The Grapes of Wrath is actually really great book

 

[davepoobond]

Victim blaming ourselves?

“We deserved it”

 

[Barsinister]

Love the West and capitalism has been very very good to me. That’s why I don’t want the country and the world to be destabilized by this obvious idiot.

The idea that the only ones who are against Trump are people with Ben Shahn paintings and a copy of The Grapes of Wrath in their back pocket is ridiculous.

I want people to stand up to this shit. I want to people to be better than this, and I don’t want this garbage to go unchallenged here.

P.S. The Grapes of Wrath is actually really great book

That book is just like my grandfather's life. He was a miserable drunk, who died young.

You can't fight the world my friend, you will just be miserable. Let the babies have their bottles. The world will still keep turning, whatever the outcome.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

bars is hilarious.

 

[Barsinister]

bars is hilarious.

Keep it up and you'll be back in my good graces in no time. Flattery will get you everywhere with me.