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Vancouver implements 15% tax on price of homes for foreign buyers.

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https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...e-prices-solution-super-heated-housing-market

On 2 August, Vancouver introduced a tax on anyone from outside Canada wanting to buy a home in its super-heated market. In future, city authorities said, if you weren’t Canadian, you would have to pay an extra 15% on the purchase price.

The impact has, by some measures, been more startling than campaigners could have hoped for. The price of the average detached home reportedly slumped by an astonishing 16.7% in August alone to C$1.47m (£856,000), according to the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver. Some agents are reporting that the market has gone from red hot to stone cold in a matter of weeks.

And earlier this month Jing Li, a 29-year-old Chinese student living in the adjoining city of Burnaby, began a class-action lawsuit against the new tax. Li had put a 10% deposit down on a half-million dollar Vancouver townhouse in July, only for the tax to be imposed 12 days later.

According to CBC News, this added C$84,000 to the price of Li’s house, meaning she was suddenly at risk of losing her C$56,000 deposit. “I can’t go forward and I can’t go back,” she told CBC.

But isn’t Canada a country built on immigration? Jordens points to the thousands of unoccupied flats across the city, built for investors who often never reside there. “If you are coming to live here, get a job and pay taxes, that’s great. The trouble is they don’t live here, and they don’t pay taxes.”

There are an estimated 10,000-plus empty apartments in Vancouver
, of which a significant number are owned by foreign investors. In mid-September, 200 protestors from a new campaign group, HALT – Housing Action for Local Taxpayers – took to Vancouver’s streets demanding action to control the market. Among the speakers were academics who argue that the Canadian home-owning dream is being crushed because they can’t compete with foreign investors.

the city’s biggest realtor to Chinese investors, Clarence Debelle, says the new taxes are “driven by jealousy and envy”.

He says the Vancouver market was slowing in any case, and that the 15% tax on overseas buyers will do nothing to help priced-out 25- to 35-year-olds buying entry-level apartments. But it could, he warns, destroy the local economy.

“Virtually everything being built in West Vancouver is being built for a Chinese buyer. Vancouver has no industry apart from tourism and construction. So what do we do? Decide to insult the Chinese. You may not just blight the property market, but bankrupt the construction industry, too.”

Debelle predicts stalemate in Vancouver’s market as sellers refuse to drop prices. And he fears for Canada’s global reputation: “In my view, the Chinese see this as a racist-motivated tax. It’s a dark moment in Canadian political history.

“It’s the wrong tax too,” he adds, “as it won’t help the people at the bottom wanting to get into the market. It has not changed the pricing of their homes one bit. There are better ways to help, such as increasing supply.”

Interesting article. It seems like the tax is working, but I can also see why some people would opposse/think this is the proper measure.
 

Dabanton

Member
Will be interesting to see the effects.

I live in Yaletown and I can see lots of apartments that never in all my 11 months here had lights on.
 
Will be interesting to see the effects.

I live in Yaletown and I can see lots of apartments that never in all my 11 months here had lights on.

Some of the effects are already being seen. The tax was added in the begging of August and accoriding to the article...

The impact has, by some measures, been more startling than campaigners could have hoped for. The price of the average detached home reportedly slumped by an astonishing 16.7% in August alone to C$1.47m (£856,000), according to the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver. Some agents are reporting that the market has gone from red hot to stone cold in a matter of weeks.
 
Foreign buyers has a huge effect on housing prices, and if a long term trend of it occurs, it starts to stifle out younger generations from being able to participate, sets up rent houses basically, etc. Happened a few times with me this summer when I was putting in offers. Foreign buyers came in with cash and paid way over tax value, like 30% more than what the house was valued at.
 

Daedardus

Member
Oh so it is to protect against foreign investors instead of blocking off immigrants? Couldn't they just impose some fees you have to pay if you have more than one home and they are unoccupied for a certain time?
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Is this only for people who buy from outside and don't have actual residence in Vancouver? Because in that case it's a good thing. That was a stupid speculative bubble that was driving out people from their homes. Also fuck off with that "racism vs chinese" , what's next, taxes are racism on the 1% because they pay more? Get a fucking grip.
 
The bolded angry quotes in that article are great. One is from a realtor who has been swimming in hundies for the past 10 years while lower and middle income residents have been forced to take on mega-debt to stay in their city. The other is from a '29 year old student' foreign national who is buying a half million dollar home.

Can this be adopted nation wide? It's literally ruining housing markets in a lot of states

I thought I heard SF was doing something similar.
 
“In my view, the Chinese see this as a racist-motivated tax. It’s a dark moment in Canadian political history."

If most of the foreign investors were Russian, it could be called anti-Russian. If most of the foreign investors were from Tennessee it could be called anti-Tennessee. The reality is that in this case it's mostly wealthy Chinese. Too many of the homes are being used for investment and not for occupation. You want to buy a property in Vancouver? Great. Move to Vancouver, be a part of the community, make it your home. But don't buy shit just so you can sit on it for a few months and then flip it for profit.

The bolded angry quotes in that article are great. One is from a realtor who has beenen swimming in hundies for the past 10 years while lower and middle income residents have been forced to take on mega-debt to stay in their city. The other is from a '29 year old student' foreign national who is buying a half million dollar home.

Seriously. This tax isn't hurting those who live in Vancouver that are trying to own. It's only hurting those who are trying to capitalize on a hot market through investing in properties they never plan to actually occupy. Trying to spin it as some dark day for Canada is laughable. That isn't to say that this whole wave of foreign investment hasn't led to some people becoming more xenophobic, but the main issue here is financial, not cultural.
 

norinrad

Member
Will be interesting to see the effects.

I live in Yaletown and I can see lots of apartments that never in all my 11 months here had lights on.

This seems to be all over major western cities. Not sure how the government can help younger people buy affordable homes in these cities without going to the extreme.
 
You know such law being adopted in the US would cause riots because free market or socialism and so on.
Well according to conservatives cities like SF already have socialist illegal laws like sanctuary for illegal murderers and forced gay marriage so they might as well take some money from foreign housing purchases.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
The bigger problem that should be shut down is how easy it is for foreign buyers to get mortgages without having to show where the money for their down payment came from (residents do have to show where it came from). It makes it a super convenient way to launder money.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I'm in favor of the spirit of this tax, but a flat 15% across the board might be too general. I don't want to discourage entrepreneurs or immigrants who want to live and work locally. I mainly just want to tax the rich people who want fancy summer/winter homes. It's a luxury, and they should have to pay for it. I'm not sure how I'd structure it to achieve those goals, however.

I would then direct proceeds from this tax towards incentivizing affordable housing for locals.
 
lets be clear on disticntions.



this isn't about Chinese-Canadians (citizens & tax payers), this is about foreign nationals playing speculator (non-citizens) and ballooning the real estate market
 
Terrible, think of all the real estate agents who will be out of work.

Doubtful because they are having to do this because there is so much demand. Agents will still be making a lot with so many people looking to buy.

I believe you were being sarcastic, but I was just adding that in.
 

kirblar

Member
The bigger problem that should be shut down is how easy it is for foreign buyers to get mortgages without having to show where the money for their down payment came from (residents do have to show where it came from). It makes it a super convenient way to launder money.
And that's effectively what's going on- the Chinese have limited way to move their money out of the country, and this is a way to do it.
This will hit trades and labour too. That aspect needs to be managed very carefully by the BC and Federal Liberals (the latter are cooking something up too).
It'll hit them hard and there's no way around it. Same thing happened when the US bubble burst.
 

Culex

Banned
Hell, I say raise the tax higher!

Unless you are planning on living/working there, there is no reason to purchase unless you are a foreign flipper.
 

tjohn86

Member
I would support this in Seattle. There are a ton of recently sold but still empty homes in my neighborhood. Housing speculation is toxic.
 

TyrantII

Member
They're laundering money through real estate property. Something needs to be done.

Owner residence requirements might be a better implementation. Don't live in the property? Own more than one residence?

Pay up.
 

Syriel

Member
Is this only for people who buy from outside and don't have actual residence in Vancouver? Because in that case it's a good thing. That was a stupid speculative bubble that was driving out people from their homes. Also fuck off with that "racism vs chinese" , what's next, taxes are racism on the 1% because they pay more? Get a fucking grip.

Seeing a Chinese national complain about protectionist housing policies (favoring citizens and residents over foreigners) is laughable for its hypocrisy.

China has a long history of placing onerous requirements on foreign buyers, such as living there for more than a year before being allowed to buy and only being allowed to own one home.

And what did China implement in Hong Kong, less than four years ago?

In a surprise move last month to curb skyrocketing property prices, the Hong Kong government announced the immediate implementation of a 15% property tax on all home purchases -- by foreigners.

The fallout has been fast.

"I think it's a harsh measure," says Brock Little, an Australian who has called Hong Kong home the past six years.

Little, a realtor with local agency Island Property, says the anti-foreigner tax has priced some of his western clients out of the market.

Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/13/business/hong-kong-property-tax/index.html

Li's statement is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.

A poorly implemented tax by a Government, feeling the heat from a very unhappy populace, with an election coming up.

How is it poorly implemented? It is protectionist, to be sure, but many countries don't even allow non-citizens to OWN land. You're limited to leasing it.

This is a targeted tax which is focuses on non-citizens who are purchasing property.
 
It'll be a while I think before we get a better idea of the impact. I know a lot of foreigners in Van in real estate (or that buy, invest, basically run Airbnbs full time, etc) and while they've basically all exited the market recently (as the Sept volume confirms) most are just taking a wait and see.... and for quite a few, they're basically still debating between Van and Beijing. Not very often I hear TO or US get mentioned unless they were previously already considering those places for geographical reasons pre-tax.

Also seems to mostly just worry condo investors, Airbnb managers, etc. Most of the homeowners I know, for the most part despite investment and the appreciation being big factors, ultimately still want to live and keep property here. Even those I've heard considering switching their condo investments or Airbnbs to Beijing still play to stay in Van at least a few months a year to keep their residence; most of friends whose parents who buy property here but make all their money in China, ultimately still plan to 'retire' here.

Other thing is that real buying power hasn't changed as dramatically. In fact, if you consider the fall in the loonie, the buying power for a lot of Chinese is still higher than before. Housing may be up, what, 15% YOY 13-14 and again 14-15 but then it's now -6% over 15-16 (Sept). So that small drop takes a bit out of the 15% tax. But so does the fact the buying power of the yuan is up over the last few years. It was, what, about 5.5 yet just two years ago. It's up 10-15% vs when a lot of people bought their properties at the start of the boom 1-2 years ago. So even though there's, say, a 15% tax now reducing buying power, the real buying power of their mainland-invested yuan is also about 10-15% vs when they bought before.

So in terms of yuan, things aren't that much more expensive than before. And it's still relatively cheap compared to the alternative in Beijing. Most of the conversations I've had where there is discussion about switching from Van to Beijing is actually not even about the price or tax -- it's about government regulation. Just the general mood of too much complicated and slow regulation. That and basically guessing whether Van is either a low return now vs Beijing, or if it's a low return but safe because the government in China may regulate even worse and crash Beijing far more.
 
Seeing a Chinese national complain about protectionist housing policies (favoring citizens and residents over foreigners) is laughable for its hypocrisy.

China has a long history of placing onerous requirements on foreign buyers, such as living there for more than a year before being allowed to buy and only being allowed to own one home.

And what did China implement in Hong Kong, less than four years ago?



Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/13/business/hong-kong-property-tax/index.html

Li's statement is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.



How is it poorly implemented? It is protectionist, to be sure, but many countries don't even allow non-citizens to OWN land. You're limited to leasing it.

This is a targeted tax which is focuses on non-citizens who are purchasing property.

I mean tbf the Chinese government != it's citizens. Especially since the citizens lack the right to even vote.
 

Syriel

Member
The bolded angry quotes in that article are great. One is from a realtor who has been swimming in hundies for the past 10 years while lower and middle income residents have been forced to take on mega-debt to stay in their city. The other is from a '29 year old student' foreign national who is buying a half million dollar home.

I thought I heard SF was doing something similar.

SF has a large amount of cash-only foreign investment buyers, but the idea of a purchase tax hasn't been seriously floated. Just talked about by some pundits.

Now, if it goes over well in Vancouver, I wouldn't be surprised to see it get seriously considered here because housing is an issue that plays across the political spectrum.
 

Mr. F

Banned
I appreciate the spirit of the tax, but if there are foreign buyers willing to beat out local bids for property at 10%+ higher anyway, does this really do that much to deter them? Like the guy says in the article, I'm sure there will be plenty of ways to side-step this for those who really want it.

As for those crying racism in the piece, get a grip. Makes me crazy that the cause and effect of what's clearly happening in BC and across the country is deemed as perfectly acceptable by those crying foul. The worst 'fuck you got mine' attitude.
 
How is it poorly implemented? It is protectionist, to be sure, but many countries don't even allow non-citizens to OWN land. You're limited to leasing it.

This is a targeted tax which is focuses on non-citizens who are purchasing property.

Do you really think the millionaire and billionaire foreign investors are going to blink at a 15% tax? There may be a slow down, but unless other policies are implemented I promise you they will find ways of getting around it, or just paying it. The only people this really hurts are those who are actually trying to move into the city.

Once the alarms quiet down the money will continue to flow into this city unless more drastic measure are taken, such as discontinuing the self-regulation the real estate industry has enjoyed in B.C. for a long time, ending the Quebec investor scam, for example. The Liberals are simply trying to make good for the election, they've been profiting off of the real estate industry in this province for ages.
 
Explain this because this assertion makes no sense unless you are talking about foreigners.

Middle class you-and-me foreigners who actually want to move into this city and are planning on purchasing property for living are the ones who are hurt the most. The investors with buckets of cash who are flipping property for profit aren't gonna give a shit about 15% tax, and especially once the slimier realtors in this province find a way around it.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
lets be clear on disticntions.



this isn't about Chinese-Canadians (citizens & tax payers), this is about foreign nationals playing speculator (non-citizens) and ballooning the real estate market

Yeah, I wonder if there is a way to more finely tune the tax target. Is the tax exempt if they take residence in the home?
 

Switch Back 9

a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Do you really think the millionaire and billionaire foreign investors are going to blink at a 15% tax? There may be a slow down, but unless other policies are implemented I promise you they will find ways of getting around it, or just paying it. The only people this really hurts are those who are actually trying to move into the city.

Once the alarms quiet down the money will continue to flow into this city unless more drastic measure are taken, such as discontinuing the self-regulation the real estate industry has enjoyed in B.C. for a long time, ending the Quebec investor scam, for example. The Liberals are simply trying to make good for the election, they've been profiting off of the real estate industry in this province for ages.

Middle class you-and-me foreigners who actually want to move into this city and are planning on purchasing property for living are the ones who are hurt the most. The investors with buckets of cash who are flipping property for profit aren't gonna give a shit about 15% tax, and especially once the slimier realtors in this province find a way around it.



Unfortunately this was my first thought as well. If these people can afford to outright purchase homes at the already insane prices and not even bother to live there, this tiny tax ain't gunna do shit to stop them.
 
They need to do it in Sydney too
What is happening is wrecking the city the.developers only see the profits throwing up blocks for overseas owners buying off the plan and they have immense leverage over government planning so everything is getting rezoned to.high density with the excuse being population growth when really it's money.
Overseas Chinese have much lower standards for parks, pollution, noise, traffic and density so they are just fine but the city gets turned into high rise shoebox living.
And the prices. Most people now live in homes they can't afford to buy anymore. It's warping the hell out of the place. Because the route to owning pre existing homes is through a resident, the unis are stuffed with the offspring of Chinese 1%ers it's not multi cultural it's a mono culture. 3m+ Properties get bought literally for cash from China (via Hong Kong etc) while locals are audited by the tax office if they get a 10k transfer from an overseas source. It's a mess and the biggest beneficiaries ate the politicians and their developer mates.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
I think that's exactly what he means. Middle class immigrants who are trying to move to Canada Genuinely.

?

They would be citizens of Canada most likely, if they want to move there.

This is targeted at basically the foreign invested buying property and selling it. Which is fair and 100% needed in the US too.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
What do you guys think about a tax levied not on the sale price of homes like this, but rather on any sales profit or rental income generated by a foreign-held property?
 
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