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Vancouver implements 15% tax on price of homes for foreign buyers.

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Zoe

Zoe

Member
Koodo said:
Are PR holders included in the foreign tax? Because if not, I doubt this will do much to deter them. Most immigrants moving into Canada with a plan to settle down arrive with permanent residence – many of those who don't have a PR are instead arriving with a work visa and the backing of a corporation that moved them overseas.
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Permanent residents don't have to pay the tax.
 
M

MarkusRJR

Member
Good. The housing market has become a nightmare there. My aunt had to leave because she couldn't see a future for herself staying there. Buying a house is impossible unless you're rich.

Rich foreigners buy up properties as investments, then flip then for profit without ever living in them. Makes people who actually want to live in the city leave.

If you're actually going to live in Vancouver then I see an issue with the 15% tax so there should definitely be exceptions in those cases, but fuck realtors and flippers who just want money and will fuck over the housing market for actual citizens.
 
T

Tiktaalik

Member
This is the end result of decades of weak to nonexistent tax enforcement, and lax lending requirements coupled with heavy marketing of the region to Asia. BC's economy has been weak since the 80s and the desperation solution to this problem has been getting foreigners to prop up real estate. This is why Vancouver had the Expo in 1986 and Olympics in 2010 as they were opportunities to market the region to the world. Now ~25% of the GDP of the province is real estate related.

This 15% tax could cool things a bit and shift foreign investors to the next most desirable area to park cash, which is probably Toronto or Seattle, but in general this is too little too late and the damage has already been done. Property valuations are now totally decoupled from local incomes.

These issues should have been addressed years ago, but there has been a leadership vacuum with all levels of government denying there were any problems at all. I hope people remember this when the next Provincial election comes up.
 
C

causan

Member
Do they have squatter rights laws in Vancouver? If they do this seems like the perfect opportunity to take advantage of.
 
K

Keri

Member
uncelestial said:
Yes. That's a huge loss to overcome on any investment.
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Also, there are still plenty of west coast cities they can turn to, that don't have these taxes. So, there's almost no reason to keep pushing to stay in Vancouver. Unfortunately for Seattle, Los Angeles and Orange County, this probably means even more foreign investors inflating home prices.
 
N

numble

Member
jellies_two said:
It is being used to funnel funds out but it's a temporary end-pont. If you are a Chinese rich family then the way to protect your wealth from a change in political climate is to hide it in bricks and mortar in a country with a rule of law and a Chinese community to help you. The list of those cities is small but growing. This cash is tainted by association with its origin (perhaps a business associated with bribes and connections or otherwise vulnerable back in the mainland) and Chinese don't trust financial instruments real estate is king. Anything else can be potentially taken or devalued.

All this means normal market rules like ROI etc are meaningless. How can anyone compete against someone bidding who doesn't care about rental return or even capital appreciation?

I think cities should have the right to protect themselves against this kind of influence as it is destructive. And of course not reciprocated. Foreigners absolutely can't rock up and buy chunks of land in Shanghai. They can't buy industry either. The door is one way.
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If it is a temporary "end-pont", they could buy housing in many other places like Nunavut or Nebraska.

The implication that much of it is tainted or is used to protect wealth needs to be supported with evidence, if that is true, the extradition treaty that Canada is negotiating with China would solve a lot of those problems. It seems the vast majority of rich Chinese are buying overseas property because it is cheaper than Chinese property in first tier Chinese cities (seriously, look at the prices in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and Hong Kong and compare it to Vancouver), and Chinese cities already prohibit purchases of more than 2 homes, so they cannot purchase more Chinese real estate in those cities even if they want and can afford it.

In recent history, only until the past decade were foreigners not prohibited from buying chunks of land in China--I know an American with over 20 apartments in China. The rules have been relaxed recently, so you can purchase indiscriminately in certain cities:
http://www.ibtimes.com/china-relaxe...ore-real-estate-attempt-boost-slowing-2072571

And you don't even need to live in Beijing for a year to be qualified to buy property as a foreigner--it is easier for a foreigner to buy property in Beijing than a Chinese citizen that is a non-Beijinger (I believe they need to live in Beijing for 5 years before they can buy property).
https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2016/02/17/working-foreigners-may-now-buy-property-beijing

You can still purchase property without restriction if it is zoned as dual-use residential and commercial.

In terms of reciprocation, it is hard to compare the 15% tax and real estate restrictions in China. There is no tax on foreigners buying real estate in China, but in certain cities they are restricted to buying 1 property whereas a local resident can buy 2 properties. Since it is not that big of a restriction between foreigner and local, and since they have been loosening such policies recently, I don't think we are too far from allowing foreigners to purchase the same amount of property as a local.

You can buy up a lot of industry in China as a foreigner, just not in restricted industries. The number of restricted industries is getting narrower every couple of years.
 
C

Crazymoogle

Member
Keri said:
Also, there are still plenty of west coast cities they can turn to, that don't have these taxes. So, there's almost no reason to keep pushing to stay in Vancouver. Unfortunately for Seattle, Los Angeles and Orange County, this probably means even more foreign investors inflating home prices.
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Yeah, but the US doesn't have the same visa loophole. It may shift some pressure to Toronto but I think it's more likely to see increased risk of fraud to maintain the Vancouver market, which is incredibly advertised and with a huge Chinese community.

I would guess pushes towards Seattle should continue to be more from North American interests that have already been pushed out of the Vancouver market.
 
J

JP_

Banned
Shaanyboi said:
If you are comparing this to Brexit or Trump, you are wildly ignorant on the situation. Vancouver housing is so outrageously expensive due primarily to foreign buyers who are not moving to the city. They aren't contributing to the economy, some aren't even renting out the property. It is literally an empty home for no other purpose than for the owner to flip it afew years later. I swear there are apartments across from me that have never had their lights on for the 4+ years I've lived here.

Local buyers are being priced out of their own fucking city. There are bidding wars for even the low-quality rentals now.

This has gone wildly out of hand, and this is a fucking lowball for what needs to be done.
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Seriously, you write all this in response to my post that says "taxing empty homes is fine"? Tax on the basis of usage, not nationality. Curbs the problems you describe, but still welcomes people that live there and contribute. Is that not feasible?
 
N

numble

Member
Crazymoogle said:
Yeah, but the US doesn't have the same visa loophole. It may shift some pressure to Toronto but I think it's more likely to see increased risk of fraud to maintain the Vancouver market, which is incredibly advertised and with a huge Chinese community.

I would guess pushes towards Seattle should continue to be more from North American interests that have already been pushed out of the Vancouver market.
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The US has the EB-5 investor visa , which just requires $500,000 that you can structure to get back after a couple of years. The Quebec investor visa requires $800,000 Canadian dollars ($600,000 US), so it is more expensive than the US visa. Are you talking about another visa loophole?

If they get a Quebec visa, they would be a PR, and would not be subject to this 15% tax, by the way.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Switch Back 9 said:
Unfortunately this was my first thought as well. If these people can afford to outright purchase homes at the already insane prices and not even bother to live there, this tiny tax ain't gunna do shit to stop them.
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Not only this is not entirely true, but even if it is, well, at least this adds some decent chunk of tax revenue into the city coffers. I can't see a problem with this.
 
C

Crazymoogle

Member
numble said:
The US has the EB-5 investor visa , which just requires $500,000 that you can structure to get back after a couple of years. The Quebec investor visa requires $800,000 Canadian dollars ($600,000 US), so it is more expensive than the US visa. Are you talking about another visa loophole?

If they get a Quebec visa, they would be a PR, and would not be subject to this 15% tax, by the way.
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That's the one, which you are guaranteed to get back 100% of in 5 years, IIRC. So you lock in PR immediately and get the money on layaway. The EB-5 can be used of course, but the problem is sourcing investments that won't turn out to be fraud and will get you your money back. The Quebec option is basically zero risk because the government holds on to your money.
 
R

RedBullEnergy

Member
Interesting. I think if this happened within London there would be outrage. Moving to Van was a real possibility for me but seeing this makes me think twice.
 
G

Gutek

Member
KingBroly said:
What'd be too high then? 30%?

I feel like this is just the start of this fight. I can't imagine a scenario where it doesn't go up over the next 2 years.
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The Chinese investing on the east coast are super rich. 15% is not gonna hurt them. Red tape would be a better solution.
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
Is there an unoccupied tax? I feel like 30% unoccupied tax would do wonders as well. If you aren't actively living in a place and it's in a major city where housing is scarce you need to pay more to keep it since you're not helping the local economy at all.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Gutek said:
The Chinese investing on the east coast are super rich. 15% is not gonna hurt them. Red tape would be a better solution.
Click to expand...

15% is a good chunk of change to pump back into the local government at least.

Gotdatmoney said:
Is there an unoccupied tax? I feel like 30% unoccupied tax would do wonders as well. If you aren't actively living in a place and it's in a major city where housing is scarce you need to pay more to keep it since you're not helping the local economy at all.
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There will be a fine starting next year.
 
T

The Omega Man

Member
That's like a drop in a bucket for those Chinese multimillionaires, last I heard one of them bought their neighbours house only to tear it down because it was blocking his view.
 
S

sikkinixx

Member
It's too late anyway as the BC Libs turned a blind eye to it for a fucking twenty fucking years and are only now doing anything at all because they need something for the election in May (like how schools with less than 95% capacity are suddenly not getting threatened by withholding earthquake renovation funding anymore).

Most of my family is in North Van and the number of houses, bought for $1.5+ million, torn down and fancy new 'west coast' styled houses erected that now sit vacant is crazy.

Maybe if we all just became Tabris's it would all fix itself though.
 
J

jellies_two

Member
numble said:
If it is a temporary "end-pont", they could buy housing in many other places like Nunavut or Nebraska.

The implication that much of it is tainted or is used to protect wealth needs to be supported with evidence, if that is true, the extradition treaty that Canada is negotiating with China would solve a lot of those problems. It seems the vast majority of rich Chinese are buying overseas property because it is cheaper than Chinese property in first tier Chinese cities (seriously, look at the prices in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and Hong Kong and compare it to Vancouver), and Chinese cities already prohibit purchases of more than 2 homes, so they cannot purchase more Chinese real estate in those cities even if they want and can afford it..
Click to expand...

It is all tainted at the very least because China doesn't allow more than 50k to leave the country. So by _definition_ the money being liberated to buy overseas property is against the capital control rules in China. Of course there are many ways to escape these rules such as going to hong kong and running credit cards through machines literally 100s of times over in order to move funds. Or using the informal banking system. Or mis-pricing imports and exports to shift capital outside the borders. Whatever it takes. There are also a certain number of families that are actively being chased by Chinese party officials who don't regard their overseas assets as untouchable. Whether bribery charges are trumped up or real or whatever who knows but a good deal of the cash is far from clean. Its a similar situation to the russian money that floods London property and buys mayfair apartments that remain dark.

The Chinese who move their money into overseas property are not the 1% they are the 0.01%, people connected to the communist party at the highest levels, who got ownership of state industry at key moments, and generally used their political connections to build up family wealth in construction, resources, and so on. Not all of course. But many. One might call them savvy business people, but the facts of the matter are their purpose is to buy insurance policies for a possibly future where China turns ugly internally or difficult for their wealth. They've done surveys and among this group. The desire to hold an overseas passport, and relocate, is off the charts. Property helps with this. If not for them, then for their offspring. I imagine while they can continue to make money in China and liberate it to the west, they stay. But with their passports and tickets ready.

They don't pick cities based on prospects they pick cities based on whether there is an existing chinese community that can guide them, introduce them to property and connections and banking and help with the cultural and language barriers. In Australia that city is Sydney and to a lesser extent Melbourne. So the money hits unequally and warps the market out of recognition. In Canada it is Vancouver and Toronto. In USA it is west coast and new york, etc. But the list of cities is small. This isn't some kind of global capital move driven by economic principals of investment and return but cash looking for security rather than being used for re-investment back home.

And as for reciprocation
read this and tell me its equitable: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/942587.shtml
in particular, China being China, if they don't like something they just seize it. That alone makes foreign owners based overseas reluctant to consider investments. There are many stories of Australian business people who under-estimated the risk of growing a business in China: thinking a local partnership was worth the paper it was written on, losing everything and getting jailed too.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
uncelestial said:
Yes. That's a huge loss to overcome on any investment.
Click to expand...
Not only that but there's a significant number of buyers and/or investors who can barely afford their properties, and put 70-80% of all their wealth into real estate. There's a lot of multi-millionaires but there's also a lot of folks who basically saved their entire lives and basically put all their money into a home and/or a secondary investment place. Like the girl in the legal case... I don't know anyone that knows her but I know a lot of people whose story matches that: parents back home in the mainland basically saved their entire life and borrow from an aunty to buy their son a property in Van so he can get married after school, or parents sold their home back in China and now rent so their daughter can set down roots here -- basically all their money and savings are stretched for that one property. For those people to suddenly get hit with a 15% tax mid-transaction is a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Which I mention not on the topic of sympathy but just that this notion that most of the foreigners here won't even blink a $70-120k is massively overstating just how important Vancouver is to them ;p (and how 'cash' rich the median foreign house buyer is). I mean, there are families like that... but for every one like that there's a quite a few more that basically put 70% their monthly income into mortgage payments and much of their parents life savings into a down payment -- the priority of house ownership is really different than most canadians. if you have a son it's basically the #1 goal in your life for the next 25 years cuz he basically needs a house to get married.
 
G

grumble

Member
KyanMehwulfe said:
Not only that but there's a significant number of buyers and/or investors who can barely afford their properties, and put 70-80% of all their wealth into real estate. There's a lot of multi-millionaires but there's also a lot of folks who basically saved their entire lives and basically put all their money into a home and/or a secondary investment place. Like the girl in the legal case... I don't know anyone that knows her but I know a lot of people whose story matches that: parents back home in the mainland basically saved their entire life and borrow from an aunty to buy their son a property in Van so he can get married after school, or parents sold their home back in China and now rent so their daughter can set down roots here -- basically all their money and savings are stretched for that one property. For those people to suddenly get hit with a 15% tax mid-transaction is a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Which I mention not on the topic of sympathy but just that this notion that most of the foreigners here won't even blink a $70-120k is massively overstating just how important Vancouver is to them ;p (and how 'cash' rich the median foreign house buyer is). I mean, there are families like that... but for every one like that there's a quite a few more that basically put 70% their monthly income into mortgage payments and much of their parents life savings into a down payment -- the priority of house ownership is really different than most canadians. if you have a son it's basically the #1 goal in your life for the next 25 years cuz he basically needs a house to get married.
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I have roughly zero sympathy for the hardship of someone who didn't even bother to become a permanent resident before buying a house in the country. There is only a very small obligation to harm your own population to make the lives of foreign nationals easier.
 
S

sikkinixx

Member
KyanMehwulfe said:
Not only that but there's a significant number of buyers and/or investors who can barely afford their properties, and put 70-80% of all their wealth into real estate. There's a lot of multi-millionaires but there's also a lot of folks who basically saved their entire lives and basically put all their money into a home and/or a secondary investment place. Like the girl in the legal case... I don't know anyone that knows her but I know a lot of people whose story matches that: parents back home in the mainland basically saved their entire life and borrow from an aunty to buy their son a property in Van so he can get married after school, or parents sold their home back in China and now rent so their daughter can set down roots here -- basically all their money and savings are stretched for that one property. For those people to suddenly get hit with a 15% tax mid-transaction is a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Which I mention not on the topic of sympathy but just that this notion that most of the foreigners here won't even blink a $70-120k is massively overstating just how important Vancouver is to them ;p (and how 'cash' rich the median foreign house buyer is). I mean, there are families like that... but for every one like that there's a quite a few more that basically put 70% their monthly income into mortgage payments and much of their parents life savings into a down payment -- the priority of house ownership is really different than most canadians. if you have a son it's basically the #1 goal in your life for the next 25 years cuz he basically needs a house to get married.
Click to expand...

I think the Libs putting in the tax for people who already had contracts going was going too far as yeah people like the woman filing the lawsuit got the shaft.

On the other hand I simply can't understand her being a student yet buying a half million dollar property. I get mom and dad saved for her or whatever but how do you qualify for a loan as a student? Why buy a house before you become a resident in case you end up having to leave back to China due to failing classes or legal issues or whatever things could pop up? Again in her situation I think the haste to put in the law steps over the line but it seems shady as hell.
 
S

SRG01

Member
jellies_two said:
It is all tainted at the very least because China doesn't allow more than 50k to leave the country. So by _definition_ the money being liberated to buy overseas property is against the capital control rules in China. Of course there are many ways to escape these rules such as going to hong kong and running credit cards through machines literally 100s of times over in order to move funds. Or using the informal banking system. Or mis-pricing imports and exports to shift capital outside the borders. Whatever it takes. There are also a certain number of families that are actively being chased by Chinese party officials who don't regard their overseas assets as untouchable. Whether bribery charges are trumped up or real or whatever who knows but a good deal of the cash is far from clean. Its a similar situation to the russian money that floods London property and buys mayfair apartments that remain dark.
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Just wanted to touch upon the capital controls point for a moment: the extradition agreement that Canada wants to push through is 100% related to this. Even though the Chinese Yuan isn't strictly a US-pegged currency anymore, it still poses a significant problem for foreign markets when it flows overseas. Capital flight also discourages domestic investment and spending, which China is trying to encourage.

numble said:
Are you saying that foreigners are exempt from property-related taxes?
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In Canada, the sale of principal residencies cannot be taxed for capital gains -- even for foreign buyers. That loophole is soon to be closed as announced by the federal government last week.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ottawa-housing-tax-real-estate-1.3788725
 
Z

zorlaczerohero

Banned
jellies_two said:
They need to do it in Sydney too
What is happening is wrecking the city the.developers only see the profits throwing up blocks for overseas owners buying off the plan and they have immense leverage over government planning so everything is getting rezoned to.high density with the excuse being population growth when really it's money.
Overseas Chinese have much lower standards for parks, pollution, noise, traffic and density so they are just fine but the city gets turned into high rise shoebox living.
And the prices. Most people now live in homes they can't afford to buy anymore. It's warping the hell out of the place. Because the route to owning pre existing homes is through a resident, the unis are stuffed with the offspring of Chinese 1%ers it's not multi cultural it's a mono culture. 3m+ Properties get bought literally for cash from China (via Hong Kong etc) while locals are audited by the tax office if they get a 10k transfer from an overseas source. It's a mess and the biggest beneficiaries ate the politicians and their developer mates.
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Sydney is mental, locals are getting priced out even in low-earning areas of Western Sydney, $600K for an apartment in Rooty Hill...? The traditionally working class areas will get gentrified over time and they'll be forced to move further and further away from the CBD's. The government have done bugger all to stop people abroad owning multiple properties despite there being laws in place. Once every couple of years they try to prosecute a handful of foreign owners who are usually just allowed to sell them, make a profit and then buy another when the crackdown is over.

As for the politicians, I've heard a lot of stories from people in the Hills district about zoning changes going through after a big sale to a faceless company. Corrupt fuckers.
 
old

old

Member
These should be more common. Local housing is too important to an economy and to a society to be at the pure whims of a global free market.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
sikkinixx said:
I think the Libs putting in the tax for people who already had contracts going was going too far as yeah people like the woman filing the lawsuit got the shaft.

On the other hand I simply can't understand her being a student yet buying a half million dollar property. I get mom and dad saved for her or whatever but how do you qualify for a loan as a student? Why buy a house before you become a resident in case you end up having to leave back to China due to failing classes or legal issues or whatever things could pop up? Again in her situation I think the haste to put in the law steps over the line but it seems shady as hell.
Click to expand...
financing in van is pretty laughable sometimes... banks in van sometimes don't really worry all that much (especially vs locals) about income or employment when giving mortgages to foreigners. same for financing. i've seen car financing (> 50k loans) on new luxury cars where as long as the down payment is made, the dealership basically just gives the financing no questions asked. it's kinda like the u.s. ;p ninja loans no income no job no problem. i'm not sure if it's 'common' per se... i mean few anecdotes here and there are a shitty sample. but i've seen enough to make me conclude local bank financing in general is pretty laughable and complicit in helping all the wealth spending going on ;p

the whole market in van, foreigner investors kinda get the spotlight, but there's so many other moving parts and enablers. for every buyer there was some canadian family that greedy and made crazy bank selling and probably retiring to a lake house in kelowna lol; the local governments have made bank on transfer taxes, property tax, zoning fees, whatever; all the construction jobs; all the canadian home owners that refuse to rent and now just airbnb; all the local canadian banks that basically enable foreigners with cheap (vs china) financing; lazy ass CRA basically putting no effort into checking residence status; etc etc.

as for why buy as a student/before perma residence? guess it depends on the person. sometimes it's for marriage... a lot of my friends basically got married soon as they graduated or went into graduate studies, and they basically had to have a house to get married (culture thing). other times because if they wait two years while on student visa until they get perm. res, then prices maybe go up? and they waste how much on rent in the meantime? better off buying a house by any means necessary cuz at least then your income is going to something u own (and culturally is so important i guess).
 
P

Pachinko

Member
I think this is a needed first step , it should dampen foreign interest in dumping cash in another country via property. The next thing that needs to happen is that current home owners in the region need to have a non-renter tax implemented as well as a rental fee limitation. So , if you aren't a canadian citizen but you own a house in the greater vancouver area , don't reside within it and haven't had renters/don't intend to rent then you get to pay 0.3% of the homes value directly to the local government every month. This specific set of taxes then goes into a savings account that is used ONLY to finance the building / subsidizing of affordable housing. Secondly, for those foreign investors that DO have renters , a ceiling is placed on what they can charge for rent , no more than 0.5% of the homes appraised value per month with increases /decreases annually based on current market value.

Basically, you turn the houses into an expense rather than an investment for anyone not using it to live in (if they aren't canadian) and you make it harder for a foreign investor to make any money renting a domicile to a local resident.

This would force foreign investors to either obtain canadian citizenship or sell their properties to relatives that are canadian citizens. Other than this , simply extend these taxes to people who have more than 1 home in the Vancouver region. Basically, pull the bottom out of the market and cut off the head , prices should then drop and become a little more reasonable for everyone and , honestly - I think any city with more than 250,000 residents should have similar rules. ALL taxes generated this way (including the 15% one already in place) should go to my aforementioned affordable housing savings account.
 
Yoda

Yoda

Member
Doesn't Canada have the same thing the U.S. has which allows you to "buy" citizenship for "investing" 500k+ (I think that's what it is here). Once they become legal residents doesn't this mean they don't pay said tax?
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
not anymore really... they changed it from basically an interest free loan (give the government 500k or whatever and then get it back in 5 years) to requiring a.... 3 or 5 million investment. and in a few months, the previous program's just under 2000 applicants cratered down to 7 applicants or something... seven. 7 total ppl applied lol.
 
J

jellies_two

Member
zorlaczerohero said:
Sydney is mental, locals are getting priced out even in low-earning areas of Western Sydney, $600K for an apartment in Rooty Hill...? The traditionally working class areas will get gentrified over time and they'll be forced to move further and further away from the CBD's. The government have done bugger all to stop people abroad owning multiple properties despite there being laws in place. Once every couple of years they try to prosecute a handful of foreign owners who are usually just allowed to sell them, make a profit and then buy another when the crackdown is over.

As for the politicians, I've heard a lot of stories from people in the Hills district about zoning changes going through after a big sale to a faceless company. Corrupt fuckers.
Click to expand...

The whole state (NSW) is getting fucked over.
Baird is selling off the silverware. There should be some law against this. In his soon to be terminated term in power, he is allowed to sell state electricity production (to foreign owners) and of COURSE part of the legal sale agreement will be a _guaranteed_ return from the captive public for 20 years. For coal burning plants. Why do you think renewables in SA are used as a political football? because discussion of renewables threaten privatisation profits. Privatise a public monopoly? evidently they don't care about that.
He is planning to sell off the land title registry - a government department that functions well and makes a profit for the public - for a short injection of cash so a corporation will be charging extra to home owners for title searches and will introduce land title insurance and other expenses, for decades to come, just like the privatised third party car insurance system and just like sydney airport and just like toll freeways. Somehow a government elected for a term is allowed to make decisions that bind the public to bad agreements for decades. Once sold its irreversible.
And through it all, they're bulldozing local opposition so they can rezone for high rise, which means new build construction, which means sold overseas as a priority. They blame prices on a shortage of homes. But they market new homes to overseas investors and roll over negative gearing tax breaks for the wealthy. I'm no NIMBY with unrealistic visions of market gardens and urban harvested granola but what Baird and his mates - like the ones arrested in malaysia recently - are up to, it is disgusting. An unholy nexus of private / corporate enrichment and government legislation.
 
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