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Vegan parents investigated for neglect after baby son found severely malnourished

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happypup

Member
Teeth and jaws are indeed indicative, I'm just saying that by themselves in isolation they might perhaps be somewhat misleading. Are the teeth and jaws of Inuit and Okinawans for example so very different from each other? Yet their diets are definitely very different.

Thank you for the article very interesting. Basically I can apply my argument of hominid opportunism to the rest of these herbivores that do this. Problem still is that I don't know how frequent and widespread this behavior is.

While there is a definite sense of moral behavior in the rest of the animal kingdom, it's definitely not of the elevated kind humans practice. This is the important distinction veganism holds over herbivory.

When it comes to true herbivory being rare, I just don't see it. I think we are looking at it from a different angle, and the period you are talking about seems to be a lot longer than I am focusing on. My main argument is that hominids are biologically specialized in the consumption on plant-based matter, we have a generalist flexibility but our herbivore specialization seems pretty undeniable to me. Chimpanzees aren't called omnivorous frugivores for nothing, they are generalists in behavior, but their preference for plants and fruits are clear. When it comes to insects, it doesn't seem non-humans are too obsessed with cleaning their food, so even if they aren't specifically foraging for insects, they will consume them.

So when we take all that into consideration, including the CMAH mutation in humans and the problems that creates, I think it makes a very compelling case of us not being true omnivores (if such a thing even exists) and to consider our apparent herbivore specialization/roots. At the end of the day I would be content with describing humans as omnivorous herbivores, just as the chimpanzees are described as omnivorous frugivores.

As for our ancestors from 4-5 million years ago:

- http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/a-grassy-trend-in-human-ancestors-diets/

Yes, some Hominids did specialize in grass, as evidenced by their teeth, but these our cousin species and not direct ancestors.

As to our specialist roots, we don't have specialized herbivory digestion. We are hind gut fermenters, meaning the bacteria and fungus that breaks down cellulose is after most of our nutrient absorption takes place, That is also poorly developed in humans. Certainly we can tackle fruits, nuts and greens, but many carnivores also can and do eat these things as well.

As to how widespread these herbivores eating meat really is, it is quite common.

Most likely it is a combination of getting easy access to mineral rich foods, but the truth about being wild is you are always hungry, and any opportunity to eat something, no matter what will be exploited when the hunger is high enough.

For this reason lions have been known to eat grass and deer have been known to eat dead deer.

Even your article suggests a good 10% of these early hominids diet (around 4 million years ago) was meat.

I am not disagreeing with you that humans were exploring a stricter herbivorous lifestyle, some even became quite specialized, but around the 4 million year mark it was those human ancestors that increased their meat intake, that became hunters that succeeded. It was the increase in meat, and the complexities of hunting that facilitated our development. Tracking likely lead to abstract thought, eating meat meant less time foraging for edibles making more time for the development of tools and culture and art.

This has no bearing on what we should be now, because it is all really just interesting facts.

Now I don't prescribe to an absolute moral authority, and have no moral qualms with eating other animals, as they have not been instilled in me, nor do I find them at all relevant.

Even still, I feel a herbivourous diet, should be adopted, and evolution alongside our technology will allow us to far more efficiently feed all of humanity in time.
 

Jenov

Member
Yes, some Hominids did specialize in grass, as evidenced by their teeth, but these our cousin species and not direct ancestors.

As to our specialist roots, we don't have specialized herbivory digestion. We are hind gut fermenters, meaning the bacteria and fungus that breaks down cellulose is after most of our nutrient absorption takes place, That is also poorly developed in humans. Certainly we can tackle fruits, nuts and greens, but many carnivores also can and do eat these things as well.

As to how widespread these herbivores eating meat really is, it is quite common.

Most likely it is a combination of getting easy access to mineral rich foods, but the truth about being wild is you are always hungry, and any opportunity to eat something, no matter what will be exploited when the hunger is high enough.

For this reason lions have been known to eat grass and deer have been known to eat dead deer.

Even your article suggests a good 10% of these early hominids diet (around 4 million years ago) was meat.

I am not disagreeing with you that humans were exploring a stricter herbivorous lifestyle, some even became quite specialized, but around the 4 million year mark it was those human ancestors that increased their meat intake, that became hunters that succeeded. It was the increase in meat, and the complexities of hunting that facilitated our development. Tracking likely lead to abstract thought, eating meat meant less time foraging for edibles making more time for the development of tools and culture and art.

This has no bearing on what we should be now, because it is all really just interesting facts.

Now I don't prescribe to an absolute moral authority, and have no moral qualms with eating other animals, as they have not been instilled in me, nor do I find them at all relevant.

Even still, I feel a herbivourous diet, should be adopted, and evolution alongside our technology will allow us to far more efficiently feed all of humanity in time.

I don't think a full herbivore diet should be expected to be adopted, as you so eloquently pointed out, our guts are not efficient at fully processing such a diet. The better ideal would be to use our intellect and technology to create lab grown meats in the near future. That would eliminate any moral issues all together.
 

happypup

Member
I don't think a full herbivore diet should be expected to be adopted, as you so eloquently pointed out, our guts are not efficient at fully processing such a diet. The better ideal would be to use our intellect and technology to create lab grown meats in the near future. That would eliminate any moral issues all together.

I think in longer terms than most.

The first step should be widespread adoption of insects as a source of food, but given a million years a full herbivorous diet is certainly possible.
 
You shouldn't be vegetarian for moral reasons.

You should be vegetarian or at least lower your meat consumption because your fat ass is literally killing this planet with it.
 
You really can't say that. You, as a human privileged enough to be arguing on the Internet about stuff like this, would, in the completely impossible and hypothetical prospect of being an animal, prefer non-existence to what you call "Eternal Treblinka." You're really just projecting human feelings onto animals. You may be correct, but there's no way to know. I certainly don't think your example of dolphin suicide is at all appropriate considering the vast difference in cognitive abilities between them an domesticated farm animals.

I as a human am still an animal. So rather than being completely impossible and hypothetical, it's raw, actual and factual that I am one. It's an anthropocentric idea that we are somehow vastly different from other animals, when we have so much in common, especially on the instinctive level.

It's also undeniable that dolphins have advanced cognitive capabilities, but a lot of the farm animals are actually quite advanced on a cognitive level too, it's sad so many people fail to realize just how intelligent these animals actually are.


You're quoting me a sentence in a Wikipedia article that doesn't even have a citation as evidence to the contrary? That doesn't seem like a great idea.

It's a fine idea, people like to shit on wikipedia all the time, but generally it's well moderated and the information accurate. If you want an example with more authority:

Based on fecal analysis and phenological data, Ngel Nyaki chimpanzees do not solely consume fruits based on their availability within the habitat; while the proportion of fruit consumed did reflect the relative availability of fruit in the forest for some fruit species, Ficus was a preferred fruit even when scarce.

- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajp.22313/full

It still tells you the exact same thing.


Oh, here are the sentences that follow your quoted piece:



Of course they want to go to where fruit is abundant. Because once they've found a source, it's extremely easy to access and they don't have to worry about food again for a while. Beats foraging and hunting.

Not sure what you are trying to prove with those following sentences, what do you think is meant by a omnivorous frugivore? I've already stated at several points that chimpanzees opportunistically feed on animal matter. However this still is a very minor part of their dietary focus, as we return to wikipedia:

Despite the fact that common chimpanzees are known to hunt, and to collect insects and other invertebrates, such food actually makes up a small portion of their diet; from as little as two percent yearly to as much as 65 grams of meat per day for each adult chimpanzee in peak hunting seasons. This also varies from troop to troop and year to year. However, in all cases the majority of their diet consists of fruits, leaves, roots and other plant matter.

And yes, indeed as the smart creatures they are, why wouldn't they chase their main staple. I'm not sure what you are trying to say? It was what I was pointing out, chimps like fruit and chimps will search for fruit, as easy as that.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Not sure what you are trying to prove with those following sentences, what do you think is meant by a omnivorous frugivore? I've already stated at several points that chimpanzees opportunistically feed on animal matter. However this still is a very minor part of their dietary focus, as we return to wikipedia:

And yes, indeed as the smart creatures they are, why wouldn't they chase their main staple. I'm not sure what you are trying to say? It was what I was pointing out, chimps like fruit and chimps will search for fruit, as easy as that.

Not really trying to prove anything. I just said that I suspect that their expressed preference for fruit is largely dictated by how available it is in their environments and how easy it is to take advantage of it as a food resource. I only browsed the study in the link you shared, but I believe its main point is that the chimpanzees appear to display selectivity towards the types of fruit they eat, but it's within the context of an environment that has abundant fruit in the first place.
 

Valnen

Member
You shouldn't be vegetarian for moral reasons.

You should be vegetarian or at least lower your meat consumption because your fat ass is literally killing this planet with it.

I'm not going to give up on of the few joys I have in life because people more powerful than me can't get their shit together.
 

happypup

Member
Who cares what our ancestors ate? We aren't limited to what early humans ate to survive anymore.

exactly my point. Using what we used to eat is a nonsensical argument. The question is what will we choose to eat in the future.

Now there are biological implications, but all vertebrate herbivores have a legacy of carnivory, did they stop and go, wait our distant ancestors used to eat meat, so we should too, no they exploited this new resource (for them) and specialized. The switch, from pure carnivory to a mix, to pure herbivory happened numerous times among numerous lineages and, through altering our behavior now, we can do the same.
 
Are you really trying to argue that humans are meant to be vegans because of some 5 million year old bones? Did it ever occur to you that perhaps we evolved from primarily herbivore to a more omnivorous species because it was advantageous and provided more energy gains as well as supported larger brain growth? Humans didn't accidentally become omnivores, they evolved as so over the last million of years because it was an advantage. And I don't know about you, but I see nothing to envy in going backwards to a ancient diet and becoming more chimp like. Humans have become supremely successful as the top omnivore species. Granted, there could be improvements to our meat farming methods.

People are mostly meant to be vegans, because we can and have the brains and capacity for moral understanding, so we understand how deplorable unnecessary suffering is. Why I am bringing up our herbivore specialization is because many of the diseases of affluence can be attributed to the (over) consumption of animal products. My argument is that even when we adapted to eating animal products, our herbivore specialization remained active. Now happypup will have us believe there are no true herbivores at all, or they are extremely rare. Whatever is the truth regarding that, it's beyond the point I am arguing. We have a lot of medical data that support the notion that many components of for example meat are harmful to our health. I'd claim that is to do because of our herbivorous evolutionary origins as Hominids, and also because of the CMAH mutation, that causes a lot of animal products to cause inflammatory responses in us. So while we can eat animal products, it's very questionable to how desirable this is. In light of all this, is it wise to keep describing ourselves as (true) omnivores?

I have already pointed out that our omnivore capabilities increase our short-term survivability, it's viable enough for us to reproduce on etc. But now that humans are increasing their lifespans a lot of the problems involved with the consumption of animal products are becoming more clear.

As for our increase in brain mass, there are multiple theories on this, one possible explanation is that when we started cooking our foods, it became easier to consume large amounts of plants. There is no consensus on the notion that eating meat gave rise to larger human brains.

See also Nathaniel Dominy PhD. and the True Human Diet


Yes, some Hominids did specialize in grass, as evidenced by their teeth, but these our cousin species and not direct ancestors.

As to our specialist roots, we don't have specialized herbivory digestion. We are hind gut fermenters, meaning the bacteria and fungus that breaks down cellulose is after most of our nutrient absorption takes place, That is also poorly developed in humans. Certainly we can tackle fruits, nuts and greens, but many carnivores also can and do eat these things as well.

As to how widespread these herbivores eating meat really is, it is quite common.

Most likely it is a combination of getting easy access to mineral rich foods, but the truth about being wild is you are always hungry, and any opportunity to eat something, no matter what will be exploited when the hunger is high enough.

For this reason lions have been known to eat grass and deer have been known to eat dead deer.

Even your article suggests a good 10% of these early hominids diet (around 4 million years ago) was meat.

I am not disagreeing with you that humans were exploring a stricter herbivorous lifestyle, some even became quite specialized, but around the 4 million year mark it was those human ancestors that increased their meat intake, that became hunters that succeeded. It was the increase in meat, and the complexities of hunting that facilitated our development. Tracking likely lead to abstract thought, eating meat meant less time foraging for edibles making more time for the development of tools and culture and art.

This has no bearing on what we should be now, because it is all really just interesting facts.

Now I don't prescribe to an absolute moral authority, and have no moral qualms with eating other animals, as they have not been instilled in me, nor do I find them at all relevant.

Even still, I feel a herbivourous diet, should be adopted, and evolution alongside our technology will allow us to far more efficiently feed all of humanity in time.

Much of what I've written in response to Prost could be said in response to your post.
It's probably not eating meat and hunting, but much more the cooking of our food, whatever it might have been exactly, that freed up time for further human development in multiple ways.

I disagree our mainly herbivore past doesn't have a bearing in the present, because evolution in many ways is a slowly process. And the strong case you have made thus far is that many herbivores can display omnivore behavior. What I'm saying is that the human probably is better described as a herbivore that has successfully utilized omnivore behavior to increase overall survivability. But in this modern age of relative abundance, these same omnivore behaviors are actually hurting our health.

As for morality, humans tend to agree when ethical principles are simple. It's when we increase the complexity that it becomes harder to find a consensus. But this is mostly because morality is probably dependent on a lot of complex factors, meaning it will be seemingly relative in many unique scenario's. I would however argue this can be all be developed from extrapolating these primary basic principles. The problem then lies in calculating all the ramifications and vectors of a certain action. This leads many people to simply conclude there is no absolute morality or that it's all subjective. But I strongly disagree.

Simply put morality denotes for me the course of action that leads to the highest optimum for all those involved.

So if we would accept that definition and return to the eating and exploitation of animals, it's easy to see how and why it's immoral. Because it's harmful for our health, it's harmful for the environment and most importantly harmful for the exploited animals themselves. Especially for us in the developed world, who have so many alternatives. I'd say it's completely unjustifiable.
 
At the same time, though, you have to question why humans are the only animals to drink milk from a different animal, too. All of our diets are weird or hard to understand in some way.

If you don't see the people constantly dismissing or putting down vegans for their choices, that's not on vegans.

"Bacon on everything" culture and "no meat, where do you get your protein lol" people are way louder and more obnoxious than any vegans I've ever known.

Ive seen this said a lot. This is a serious question, what other animals even have a chance to consume another animals milk? If I put a bowl of milk out, my dog would devour it. Cats also drink milk from what Im told, but its not good for them.

Humans do a lot of things most others will never do because of our intelligence and because other animals never even get a chance. How come no other animals use fossilized dinosaur juice to heat their homes?

Im not saying being vegan/vegetarian is bad, but that's not a good argument. Saying you're against it because you don't want to see animals suffer if a perfectly valid argument. I still hate killing fish to eat them. If I had to kill cows/pigs to eat them, I probably would go vegetarian (no way in hell id go vegan).
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
People are mostly meant to be vegans, because we can and have the brains and capacity for moral understanding, so we understand how deplorable unnecessary suffering is. Why I am bringing up our herbivore specialization is because many of the diseases of affluence can be attributed to the (over) consumption of animal products. My argument is that even when we adapted to eating animal products, our herbivore specialization remained active. Now happypup will have us believe there are no true herbivores at all, or they are extremely rare. Whatever is the truth regarding that, it's beyond the point I am arguing. We have a lot of medical data that support the notion that many components of for example meat are harmful to our health. I'd claim that is to do because of our herbivorous evolutionary origins as Hominids, and also because of the CMAH mutation, that causes a lot of animal products to cause inflammatory responses in us. So while we can eat animal products, it's very questionable to how desirable this is. In light of all this, is it wise to keep describing ourselves as (true) omnivores?

I have already pointed out that our omnivore capabilities increase our short-term survivability, it's viable enough for us to reproduce on etc. But now that humans are increasing their lifespans a lot of the problems involved with the consumption of animal products are becoming more clear.

As for our increase in brain mass, there are multiple theories on this, one possible explanation is that when we started cooking our foods, it became easier to consume large amounts of plants. There is no consensus on the notion that eating meat gave rise to larger human brains.

See also Nathaniel Dominy PhD. and the True Human Diet

Completely disagree with these points:

1. There's no consensus that eating meat gave rise to larger human brains.
2. Animal products are unhealthy.

Our bodies are made of fat and protein and we are constantly replacing our cells with new ones. To do this, we need a steady supply of resources. Animal based proteins are much more similar to our own proteins and thus can be used more readily for building our bodies. Not that you can't get by with vegetable based protein, but the amino acid profiles of animal based protein are just better for our bodies.
 
Completely disagree with these points:

1. There's no consensus that eating meat gave rise to larger human brains.
2. Animal products are unhealthy.

Are bodies are made of fat and protein and we are constantly replacing our cells with new ones. To do this, we need a steady supply of resources. Animal based proteins are much more similar to our own proteins and thus can be used more readily for building our bodies. Not that you can't get by with vegetable based protein, but the amino acid profiles of animal based protein are just better for our bodies.

You can disagree, but it doesn't seem to have any basis in actual recent data.
The video I posted already discussed point 1, and in previous discussions I'm pretty sure I've provided even more sources.

As for point 2. Yes, the amino acid profiles of animal based protein are more similar to our own (we are animals, duh), but that is exactly the problem. Because they are so similar/identical they promote IGF activity and cancerous growth. When you eat flesh you are essentially parasitizing on the hard work of the animal. It's actually good when you have to combine different foodsources to get a complete amino acid profile, so your body has more freedom in how to utilize these resources.
-High protein intake is linked to increased cancer, diabetes, and overall mortality
-High IGF-1 levels increased the relationship between mortality and high protein
-Plant-derived proteins are associated with lower mortality than animal-derived proteins
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155041311400062X

The same is essentially true for animal fats, these aren't as healthy for humans as vegetable fats, on the contrary. - http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Ive seen this said a lot. This is a serious question, what other animals even have a chance to consume another animals milk? If I put a bowl of milk out, my dog would devour it. Cats also drink milk from what Im told, but its not good for them.

Humans do a lot of things most others will never do because of our intelligence and because other animals never even get a chance. How come no other animals use fossilized dinosaur juice to heat their homes?

Im not saying being vegan/vegetarian is bad, but that's not a good argument.
Yup. It's pretty much a different example of the naturalistic fallacy, and we all know how derided the "animals do X" (such as "lions eat gazelles after all!") argument is. Using the same rhetoric in the "animals don't do X" is just as stupid.

Hell animals don't cook their food either. Go raw paleo or else! :D
 

happypup

Member
Much of what I've written in response to Prost could be said in response to your post.
It's probably not eating meat and hunting, but much more the cooking of our food, whatever it might have been exactly, that freed up time for further human development in multiple ways.

I disagree our mainly herbivore past doesn't have a bearing in the present, because evolution in many ways is a slowly process. And the strong case you have made thus far is that many herbivores can display omnivore behavior. What I'm saying is that the human probably is better described as a herbivore that has successfully utilized omnivore behavior to increase overall survivability. But in this modern age of relative abundance, these same omnivore behaviors are actually hurting our health.

As for morality, humans tend to agree when ethical principles are simple. It's when we increase the complexity that it becomes harder to find a consensus. But this is mostly because morality is probably dependent on a lot of complex factors, meaning it will be seemingly relative in many unique scenario's. I would however argue this can be all be developed from extrapolating these primary basic principles. The problem then lies in calculating all the ramifications and vectors of a certain action. This leads many people to simply conclude there is no absolute morality or that it's all subjective. But I strongly disagree.

Simply put morality denotes for me the course of action that leads to the highest optimum for all those involved.

So if we would accept that definition and return to the eating and exploitation of animals, it's easy to see how and why it's immoral. Because it's harmful for our health, it's harmful for the environment and most importantly harmful for the exploited animals themselves. Especially for us in the developed world, who have so many alternatives. I'd say it's completely unjustifiable.

I am not making any point, except that arguments of what is natural for us to eat is a meaningless one.

I meant to challenge both your definitions of herbivory carnivory and omnivory and replace them with a more complete picture of a natural condition, that of hunger and opportunity. That stating we were herbivores so we should continue to be is an oversimplified platitude. We do not have the specialist herbivory toolset (both in teath and jaw structure and in intestinal structure). But even those that do have these specialized toolsets do not adhere to the definitions, the labels we give them perfectly.

Now I am am not sure, but you seem to say that there is an absolute morality, one that can be found at the peak of most good. Where I see a huge rolling field of moral peaks and valleys, that one can reach the moral peak and look out and find other different moral peaks, some might be higher, some lower, but on our peak it is difficult to tell which is which.

That is why I don't care about the moral argument, because I believe in the best good argument, morality will catch up to the best good.

I do believe that in the long term herbivory would be a better system for us, but we have many hurdles yet to cross before that is feasible. As it stands raising monocultures is in many ways just as damaging to our ecosystem (if not more so) than raising livestock in grazing lands (though nowadays we raise monoculture crops and feed them to our livestock which is just bonkers).

Lowering our place in the food chain though will allow us to provide more food to more people in a more sustainable way. This won't happen overnight, and the battlefield of morality is not where this fight will be won, but eventually necessity will facilitate change.
 
I am not making any point, except that arguments of what is natural for us to eat is a meaningless one.

I meant to challenge both your definitions of herbivory carnivory and omnivory and replace them with a more complete picture of a natural condition, that of hunger and opportunity. That stating we were herbivores so we should continue to be is an oversimplified platitude. We do not have the specialist herbivory toolset (both in teath and jaw structure and in intestinal structure). But even those that do have these specialized toolsets do not adhere to the definitions, the labels we give them perfectly.

Now I am am not sure, but you seem to say that there is an absolute morality, one that can be found at the peak of most good. Where I see a huge rolling field of moral peaks and valleys, that one can reach the moral peak and look out and find other different moral peaks, some might be higher, some lower, but on our peak it is difficult to tell which is which.

That is why I don't care about the moral argument, because I believe in the best good argument, morality will catch up to the best good.

I do believe that in the long term herbivory would be a better system for us, but we have many hurdles yet to cross before that is feasible. As it stands raising monocultures is in many ways just as damaging to our ecosystem (if not more so) than raising livestock in grazing lands (though nowadays we raise monoculture crops and feed them to our livestock which is just bonkers).

Lowering our place in the food chain though will allow us to provide more food to more people in a more sustainable way. This won't happen overnight, and the battlefield of morality is not where this fight will be won, but eventually necessity will facilitate change.

And I've pointed out that it's not meaningless. In general when discussing veganism in general I tend to avoid this whole technical discussion about our ancestors etc. But when the issue of health comes into the picture, it sort of makes sense to talk about our evolutionary heritage and adaptations. Especially when everyone simply starts to drone we're 'omnivores' without any actual understanding of the complexities we've been discussing.

You haven't really succeeded at challenging my notions of the various taxa though, because I've pointed out from the start how they aren't as clear cut, we simply disagree on some of the finer details and that's fine. Because it only serves to illustrate the point how it isn't exactly an exact science, or perhaps better yet, the terms themselves are somewhat misleading. Be that as it may, I still feel that in general humans as a whole and over the last millions, are best described as (omnivorous) herbivores. I think all the data I've provided builds a strong case for it. If we were optimized for the consumption of animal products, it probably wouldn't involve so many health risks, this suggest that whilst we can engage in omnivorous behavior it simply isn't ideal, it's just there to aid our survival during periods, or in environments, of extremes. I'm afraid you are also too focused on the structure of our anatomy alone, and miss details as the CMAH mutation, or the fact that we have about 7 times the amount of amylase that a chimpanzee even has, and as said before the massive amount of medical data that keeps pouring in that's incriminating the consumption of animal products.

Our discussion about morality would probably end up becoming very abstract, and probably shouldn't even be part of this discussion right now. Even though veganism has everything to do with ethics. I don't think there is a moral landscape of peaks and valleys, that might be a better analogy for a certain action set then applied to different situations. But for a given situation there is always going to be an optimum course, doesn't mean when there isn't much at stake that there isn't tremendous freedom to explore that. Reality is too complex to have black and white answers then, but again starting from first principles you can get a long way. Again this discussion would become way too abstract fast, so it's better not to pursue this here and now.

We wouldn't lower our place in the food chain, we would just only eat lower in the food chain, because there basically aren't any meaningful predators of humans. And it will definitely be at all fronts that this revolution will take place. Nutritionally, technologically, ethically, environmentally etc. You can tell the time is ripe because there are just so many different domains working in tandem, so that the masses can't stay ignorant on the matter. It might still take 40-100 years to truly transform the global human society, and there are definitely some hurdles to be taken. But I think it's an inevitable fate of a developing world.

No we're not. We've been hunting for meat for as long as we've lived. Without meat we wouldnt have developed to our present "forms"

Wow. Talk about taking something out of context, perhaps you should quote the whole sentence next time and try and understand what I'm actually trying to say.
 

happypup

Member
And I've pointed out that it's not meaningless. In general when discussing veganism in general I tend to avoid this whole technical discussion about our ancestors etc. But when the issue of health comes into the picture, it sort of makes sense to talk about our evolutionary heritage and adaptations. Especially when everyone simply starts to drone we're 'omnivores' without any actual understanding of the complexities we've been discussing.

You haven't really succeeded at challenging my notions of the various taxa though, because I've pointed out from the start how they aren't as clear cut, we simply disagree on some of the finer details and that's fine. Because it only serves to illustrate the point how it isn't exactly an exact science, or perhaps better yet, the terms themselves are somewhat misleading. Be that as it may, I still feel that in general humans as a whole and over the last millions, are best described as (omnivorous) herbivores. I think all the data I've provided builds a strong case for it. If we were optimized for the consumption of animal products, it probably wouldn't involve so many health risks, this suggest that whilst we can engage in omnivorous behavior it simply isn't ideal, it's just there to aid our survival during periods, or in environments, of extremes. I'm afraid you are also too focused on the structure of our anatomy alone, and miss details as the CMAH mutation, or the fact that we have about 7 times the amount of amylase that a chimpanzee even has, and as said before the massive amount of medical data that keeps pouring in that's incriminating the consumption of animal products.

Our discussion about morality would probably end up becoming very abstract, and probably shouldn't even be part of this discussion right now. Even though veganism has everything to do with ethics. I don't think there is a moral landscape of peaks and valleys, that might be a better analogy for a certain action set then applied to different situations. But for a given situation there is always going to be an optimum course, doesn't mean when there isn't much at stake that there isn't tremendous freedom to explore that. Reality is too complex to have black and white answers then, but again starting from first principles you can get a long way. Again this discussion would become way too abstract fast, so it's better not to pursue this here and now.

We wouldn't lower our place in the food chain, we would just only eat lower in the food chain, because there basically aren't any meaningful predators of humans. And it will definitely be at all fronts that this revolution will take place. Nutritionally, technologically, ethically, environmentally etc. You can tell the time is ripe because there are just so many different domains working in tandem, so that the masses can't stay ignorant on the matter. It might still take 40-100 years to truly transform the global human society, and there are definitely some hurdles to be taken. But I think it's an inevitable fate of a developing world.

I never said we were optimized for the consumption of meat, only that we are not optimized for the consumption of plant biomass. We are omnivores, capable of surviving on a wide range of food sources but not optimized for any one.

I don't see how CMAH is relevant to this discussion, the loss of function for coding that particular sialic acid likely had nothing to do with diet. If it did it would indicate an increased amount of meat intake around the time period that this gene was shut off, that we were getting all the necessary salic acid from our diet, which again is probably not why this happened.

The duplications of alpha-amalyse does however correlate to an increased starchy diet, however these are the origins of specialization and, considering the amount of variation among humans depending on their diet, have occurred recently, most likely after we began agriculture in full force. In other words by radically altering our diet to include a greatly increased amount of starchy foods we became better suited to digesting starchy foods. This doesn't speak to what we were, but what we can be, by exploiting totally meat free diets we will continue to accumulate mutation like these that will make us better suited for that diet. The changes will start with duplications of genes, like this one, and from those duplications derived forms will begin to develop. This again doesn't say we are herbivores, only that by adopting a herbivorous diet we will become specialist herbivores.

I agree with you that herbivory is a likely outcome given our current situation, I have a feeling it will take much longer than you suggest, but it makes a lot of sense in the long term.
 
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