Support NeoGAF

[Mecha]

How often do you actually find vegan pizza's in restaurants or grocery stores? How often do you find vegan icecream in grocery stores, icecream shops or kiosks? Cause I've never in my life encountered any of that. The closest is vegetarian pizza. Vegans do have a lack of options when it comes to sweets. Having to check the labels all the time and not even being able to trust them puts you at a disadvantage to those who can just pick their favorite ice cream. The Ben and Jerry icecream is most likely to be one flavor, opposed to the dozens that arent dairy free. Most candy nowadays have gelatine.

I have 4 different grocery stores that I go to in here North Carolina and all but one have vegan pizzas. I believe all 4 have various dairy free ice cream brands, and all 4 have silk and other dairy free milk brands.

 

[cyberheater]

Bring something more of substance to the discussion than petty word arguments.

If you're going to talk about vegetarianism. At least take the time find out what it actually means.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

If you're going to talk about vegetarianism. At least take the time find out what it actually means.

Various people have various definitions of vegetarianism and its sub-branches. It is irrelevant to the actual debate.

 

[Harusame]

Vitamin B12, Iron and Vitamin D deficient? That child must be severely anemic. Vitamin B12 and Iron are essential when it comes to the production of erythrocytes and if there is a low hematocrit, it would usually cause them to be macrocytic. If the parents didn't report this any sooner, further manifestations may occur such as spleenomegaly, since the enlarge RBC's are taken in more easily. I'm not too informed when it comes to anemias when it comes to pediatrics, but it runs along the same lines. If a person does undergo a vegan, especially if they make their child undergo the diet as well, they have to be well informed and they have to be fully aware of what they have to compensate in terms of their dietary needs.

 

[blackflag]

vegans have plenty of options for sweets. I'm not vegan and never would be but IMO vegan cheesecake, the kind made from cashews, is better than real cheesecake.

My SO is vegan so I eat at a lot of vegan places then go home and eat a pound of chicken.

There are plenty of vegan donut shops around here, vegan ice cream, etc.

Edit: forgot to quote

 

[Idba]

I mean, I get all of this stuff at Safeway and Fred Meyer. I think you just have a blind spot for these products while you're shopping.

Popular sweets that are vegan: Swedish Fish, Oreos, Skittles, Mambas, Mike and Ike. etc etc.

Not everybody lives in 'Murica.

"Oreo has the cross contact of milk."

Should probably clarify that vegans has enough options in 'Murica, but not the rest of the world. Never in Norway, or the others countries in Europe that I have been in have I heard of vegan stores or pizza's. Vegeterian yes, but not vegan. Being vegan isnt much of a viable option in Norway, especially not for kids

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

"Oreo has the cross contact of milk."

Vegans do their best.

 

[blackflag]

Not everybody lives in 'Murica.

"Oreo has the cross contact of milk."

That is a label to prevent lawsuits if somehow some dairy got in there. They are for all purposes vegan.

My daughter eats them and she's very allergic to dairy and several other things...like epipen levels of allergic.

 

[Idba]

That is a label to prevent lawsuits if somehow some dairy got in there. They are for all purposes vegan.

My daughter eats them and she's very allergic to dairy and several other things...like epipen levels of allergic.

"You shouldn’t assume that dark chocolate contains no milk if the label does not mention it at all. “Milk-allergic consumers should be aware that 33% of the dark chocolates with no mention of milk anywhere on the label were, in fact, found to contain milk,” says Luccioli."

"In addition to these advisory statements, labels for chocolate bars may make other claims. Some say “dairy-free” or “lactose free,” but FDA found milk in 15% of the dark chocolates with this label. And 25% of dark chocolate products labeled only “vegan” were found to contain milk."

Albeit this is about chocolate, I bet it applies to alot of other "vegan" products. Same with some "halal" products cointaining pork.

EDIT; Should probably clarify that vegans has enough options in 'Murica, but not the rest of the world. Never in Norway, or the others countries in Europe that I have been in have I heard of vegan stores or pizza's. Vegeterian yes, but not vegan. Being vegan isnt much of a viable option in Norway, especially not for kids (forgot to edit this into my previous post)

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

"You shouldn’t assume that dark chocolate contains no milk if the label does not mention it at all. “Milk-allergic consumers should be aware that 33% of the dark chocolates with no mention of milk anywhere on the label were, in fact, found to contain milk,” says Luccioli."

"In addition to these advisory statements, labels for chocolate bars may make other claims. Some say “dairy-free” or “lactose free,” but FDA found milk in 15% of the dark chocolates with this label. And 25% of dark chocolate products labeled only “vegan” were found to contain milk."

Albeit this is about chocolate, I bet it applies to alot of other "vegan" products. Same with some "halal" products cointaining pork.

You've been doing this weird "this isn't even vegan" and "do vegan products even exist" thing. What does this have to do with anything in this thread?

 

[cyberheater]

Various people have various definitions of vegetarianism and its sub-branches. It is irrelevant to the actual debate.

Being a vegetarian for over 30 years. People being ignorant to the fact that a vegetarian doesn't eat fish has had an impact on me and is relevant to the debate.

 

[Acinixys]

Veganism ain't natural. God made MEAT so we could EAT.

Aint no EAT without the M

For real though regardless of your personal beliefs, you should feel your baby normal baby shit until they are able to choose for themselves

Who knows what kind of weird shit can happen to their developing brains if they dont get enough of the right proteins and carbohydrates and vitamins

 

[Idba]

You've been doing this weird "this isn't even vegan" and "do vegan products even exist" thing. What does this have to do with anything in this thread?

It has to do with forcing your kid to be vegan.

 

[Zoned]

Being a lacto-ovo vegetarian myself from birth, I wouldn't personally advise anyone to go full vegan from the start. Cheese, eggs, milk etc are some of the most common readily available things that provide you essential nutrients to live healthy. Transitioning directly to vegan doesn't seem very logical to me unless you have a good knowledge of how to meet adequate dietary needs.

Lacto-Ovo ---> Lacto -----> Vegan.

That would be a good path imo if someone wants to become vegan. But straight up vegan is a definite NO in my books.

 

[ElTorro]

Veganism ain't natural. God made MEAT so we could EAT.

And God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, amirite?

Beautiful logic. *rolleyes*

 

[Walpurgis]

It's simply a classification, a label we project unto the world. Our ancestors of a few million years ago were herbivores, and our bodies are still largely similar to them, just as we are still quite similar to other Great Apes. Whilst we did adapt to the consumption of animal foods, this was to aid general survivability, but perhaps was never ideal. The general health and longevity of tribes that subsist on mostly animal products supports this idea. Since our adaptation to the consumption of animal products we have also mutated in a way that makes a lot of animal products even more problematic to us health wise (Neu5Gc). In many ways even though we have adapted to animal products and are at least behavioral omnivores, I wonder if in a health sense we wouldn't be (still) better described as herbivores.

Gorillas are mostly vegetarian so that is an interesting thought but I think that we are omnivores because meat + veggies were needed to survive. Back then, life revolved around survival of the fittest so maybe there was a vegetation drought at one point (ice age?) or humans evolved to require meat to survive leading to what we are now.

 

[Krauser Kat]

This is a problem of parents being idiots and assholes. Them being vegan has little to do with anything. A baby can have an extremely nutritionally rich vegan diet with careful planning and education along side a pediatrician. American medical association and American academy of pediatrics have researched and found vegan diets can be healthy at all ages.

When feeding kids, all dietary choices should be researched. Not doing so makes you as terrible as these parents.

With global warming and massive droughts plaguing the country. every person should be trying to lower their impact on the water supply and environment. Being vegan is one of, if not the best way to cut down ones impact on the world.

 

[Idba]

Gorillas are mostly vegetarian so that is an interesting thought but I think that we are omnivores because meat + veggies were needed to survive. Back then, life revolved around survival of the fittest so maybe there was a vegetation drought at one point (ice age?) or humans evolved to require meat to survive leading to what we are now.

If I remember correctly so was it because of a agricultural "drought" that led to people eating dairy even though they were lactose intolerant. After a while a gene mutated to make peolpe lactose tolerant

 

[Frank Serpico]

I know, bro. Pescatarian and all that. Enough with the semantics. You guys get way too caught up on that shit.

Bring something more of substance to the discussion than petty word arguments.

It's not semantics, it's you being ignorant to what a vegetarian is and isn't, and if your ignorance is what you bring to the discussion you're not worth my brain cells

 

[Zoned]

Now I know that BMI might not the best indication of health, but for the vast majority of Americans, it still holds true. Also quotes from NIH studies:

The use of indexing systems, estimating the overall diet quality based on different aspects of healthful dietary models (be it the US Dietary Guidelines for Americans or the compliance to the Mediterranean Diet) indicated consistently the vegan diet as the most healthy one.

Fish-eaters, vegetarians and especially vegans had lower BMI than meat-eaters. Differences in macronutrient intakes accounted for about half the difference in mean BMI between vegans and meat-eaters.

 

[squidyj]

Now I know that BMI might not the best indication of health, but for the vast majority of Americans, it still holds true. Also quotes from NIH studies:

is this adjusted for socioeconomic status?

 

[Idba]

Now I know that BMI might not the best indication of health, but for the vast majority of Americans, it still holds true. Also quotes from NIH studies:

Well no shit. Youre not gonna find any of the major fast food chains make vegan food. Non-vegan people have a much more broader choice of food, that includes unhealthy food.

 

[SapientWolf]

They do Vegan baby food which of course contains all required nutrients. And the extra stuff is easy past that with nutritional yeast, eating well yet.

And when you go to 'real' food lots of it has added B12, Vitamin D3 etc.. it's quite hard to be deficient shockingly unless you're picky.

Nutritional yeast is incredibly micronutrient dense. Everybody should be snacking on that stuff.

 

[ricki42]

Not everybody lives in 'Murica.

"Oreo has the cross contact of milk."

Most vegans would consider 'may contain traces of X' as vegan. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a vegan who didn't.

Should probably clarify that vegans has enough options in 'Murica, but not the rest of the world. Never in Norway, or the others countries in Europe that I have been in have I heard of vegan stores or pizza's. Vegeterian yes, but not vegan. Being vegan isnt much of a viable option in Norway, especially not for kids

I don't know about Norway, but I've lived in Sweden and in Finland, and in both countries the regular supermarkets had pretty good selections of vegan stuff, like various milks and icecream. And yes, also cookies and pizza. Finland has a fairly large number of lactose-intolerant people, so dairy-free is not uncommen. The UK is generally really good when it comes to vegan food, Germany is getting better, southern Europe tends to be more difficult, especially in rural areas. That's my impression at least. So it's not 'only in Murica'.

 

[Raven Prime]

Uhhh... of course they are limited. Come on. There might be vegan alternatives to some products, but not all of them. (lol @ vegan cheese, really)

We are all limited in a certain sense, the main point is that a vegan can enjoy pretty much every product that a carnist can. You can laugh at the concept of vegan cheeses, but there are some pretty good ones on the market.

I know, bro. Pescatarian and all that. Enough with the semantics. You guys get way too caught up on that shit.

Bring something more of substance to the discussion than petty word arguments.

You misrepresent what vegetarianism is, as the OP it makes more than sense to point that out. Don't be so defensive.

this is what I hate about some vegans.

But animal products are clearly addictive to many people. You would be amazed how many people say "I really care about animals and I admire that you are able to be vegan, but I could never give up meat or dairy." It's deeply engrained into human societies, not to talk about all the machismo that is tied to the consumption of meat and animal products in general. But if you want to hate, so be it.

Who the fuck makes pizza without cheese? And you would never let your (hypothetical) kids eat over at their friends house? How is he going to be able to ever sleep over?
Also, vegan candy, ice cream and chocolate? Where can you even find vegan candy? And only dark chocolate (which tastes horrible) "can" be vegan. Even those who are vegan arent.
“Milk-allergic consumers should be aware that 33% of the dark chocolates with no mention of milk anywhere on the label were, in fact, found to contain milk,” "Some say “dairy-free” or “lactose free,” but FDA found milk in 15% of the dark chocolates with this label. And 25% of dark chocolate products labeled only “vegan” were found to contain milk."

And meat and dairy arent irresponisble habits. Comparing them to drugs is just f**king stupid. How is animal products an addiction?

Youre going to be stripping so many things away from your kid if you force them to be vegan. Please dont do that.

Vegans make pizzas without (non-vegan) cheese obviously. Also I never said I wouldn't let my kids eat or sleep over at a friends place, I just said I'd make sure the parents would be aware of my kids lifestyle. See the theme I'm detecting in your posting is that you assume you are limited to what stores sell, but there are many benefits even beyond veganism to making stuff yourself. There are stores and brands that are starting to switch from sugar (or animal product) laden products to eco/health/vegan friendly options. But again I do not limit myself to what stores sell. That kind of consumer mentality is the death of (gastronomical) creativity.

Dark chocolate tasting horrible is only a personal opinion, one I used to share actually, until I went vegan and learned to love it. It's quite interesting how personal taste can change over the years, and how exposure to certain foods can modify one's palate.
As for the traces, yeah that can be problematic, but again that's the problem of relying on mass production to create your food stuffs. Also one would expect that a post-speciesistic society would solve these problems by not using animal products to begin with.

Yea, but thats America's vegan-people's problem. I live in Norway so that doesnt affect me

EDIT; Should probably clarify that vegans has enough options in 'Murica, but not the rest of the world. Never in Norway, or the others countries in Europe that I have been in have I heard of vegan stores or pizza's. Vegeterian yes, but not vegan. Being vegan isnt much of a viable option in Norway, especially not for kids (forgot to edit this into my previous post)

It holds true for most agricultural regions, Cattle rearing requires massive amounts of water, same is going to be true for Norway. As for being a vegan in Norway, I don't know how good or bad it is there. But many places in Europe are very very vegan friendly, England, Germany and The Netherlands are shining examples.

Various people have various definitions of vegetarianism and its sub-branches. It is irrelevant to the actual debate.

Language is always relevant to a debate, and there aren't really various definitions but rather the casual way and the technical way of using the terms. In a discussion involving technicalities one should always resort to the latter.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

We are all limited in a certain sense, the main point is that vegan can enjoy pretty much every product that a carnist can.

You're being ridiculous. If that were true, many more people would be vegan. But most people just aren't willing to abandon seafood, filet mignons, bacon, gourmet cheese, sushi and BBQ. You even admit that yourself. These things (among many others) just have either mediocre alternatives, extremely expensive alternatives, or no alternatives at all. So no, a vegan cannot enjoy "pretty much every product" that meat eaters do.

(lol @ "carnist" though)

You can laugh at the concept of vegan cheeses, but there are some pretty good ones on the market.

You keep telling yourself that.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

The production of meat causes more destruction to the planet than the production of plant food for human consumption. (Hint: What do you think cows and pigs eat? That's right, plants.)

If everyone on Earth were a Vegan, there would be less destruction of plants than today.

If everyone was Vegan, we aren't living. We're omnivores. We need to incorporate meat in our diets, even if it's just a bit.

Yes, animal farming causes more resources to be used, but moderating it is a better solution than completely cutting it off. Being a vegan in protest isn't going to help solve the problem.

 

[Pinkuss]

You keep telling yourself that.

We do; and it's food. Why so sanctimonious on your view. Oddly most omni's kind of appreciate the Vegan view on trying to reduce pain and suffering amongst thing; what a terrible view after all.

 

[cyberheater]

If everyone was Vegan, we aren't living. We're omnivores. We need to incorporate meat in our diets, even if it's just a bit.

Factually incorrect.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Go and educate yourself.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

We do; and it's food. Why so sanctimonious on your view. Oddly most omni's kind of appreciate the Vegan view on trying to reduce pain and suffering amongst thing; what a terrible view after all.

Huh? How am I being sanctimonious? I didn't say anything about the vegan view and suffering and whatnot. I just gently mocked the idea that vegan cheese is good enough tasting to replace all non-vegan cheese. That's literally all I did and you got on your high horse. And you call me sanctimonious, that's quite priceless.

If everyone was Vegan, we aren't living. We're omnivores. We need to incorporate meat in our diets, even if it's just a bit.

That's so ridiculous, LOL. Are you serious?

 

[Raven Prime]

You're being ridiculous. If that were true, many more people would be vegan. But most people just aren't willing to abandon seafood, filet mignons, bacon, gourmet cheese, sushi and BBQ. You even admit that yourself. These things (among many others) just have either mediocre alternatives, extremely expensive alternatives, or no alternatives at all. So no, a vegan cannot enjoy "pretty much every product" that meat eaters do.

(lol @ "carnist" though)


You keep telling yourself that.

I'm happy my posts put a smile on your face. But beyond that it's all very debatable. There are many products that can satisfy the need for meat, because else I couldn't be a vegan, since I always loved the taste of meats and dairy. It's in many ways more about the food combinations, the herbs the sauces etc. Most if not all people could be vegan if they only tried, the problem is so little even attempt it. You call the alternatives mediocre or expensive, I'd beg to differ. But mostly I would say even if not everything can be substituted taste or texture wise, so be it. By limiting oneself to a certain extent you can discover real creativity. Many vegans eat foods that a lot of carnists never will. And yes I use the term carnist as I find that to be more precise than the problematic 'omnivore' or whatever. I could use however non-vegans if you'd prefer.

See bottomline is that I don't mind sacrificing the hypothetical taste edge of animal products in order to prevent unnecessary animal suffering. I wouldn't agree that edge exists however.

If everyone was Vegan, we aren't living. We're omnivores. We need to incorporate meat in our diets, even if it's just a bit.

Yes, animal farming causes more resources to be used, but moderating it is a better solution than completely cutting it off. Being a vegan in protest isn't going to help solve the problem.

You are wrong, we don't need meat. Millions are healthy and living examples of that. What ever gave you that idea? Being an omnivore doesn't require you to eat 'everything', it just means you have adapted to do so if necessary.

Huh? How am I being sanctimonious? I didn't say anything about the vegan view and suffering and whatnot. I just gently mocked the idea that vegan cheese is good enough tasting to replace all non-vegan cheese. That's literally all I did and you got on your high horse. And you call me sanctimonious, that's quite priceless.

You are thereby mocking yourself and misrepresenting what I said. I just said there are good tasting vegan alternatives. I'd be the first to admit that we haven't found the holy grail of vegan cheeses yet. But when it comes to some types we are getting very close and sufficiently so.

 

[DragonSworne]

I don't think I will ever understand vegans.

 

[Booshka]

I don't think I will ever understand vegans.

Don't worry, there will be more chances to understand them; they will never stop vehemently explaining their lifestyle to you.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't think I will ever understand vegans.

At the same time, though, you have to question why humans are the only animals to drink milk from a different animal, too. All of our diets are weird or hard to understand in some way.

Don't worry, there will be more chances to understand them; they will never stop vehemently explaining their lifestyle to you.

If you don't see the people constantly dismissing or putting down vegans for their choices, that's not on vegans.

"Bacon on everything" culture and "no meat, where do you get your protein lol" people are way louder and more obnoxious than any vegans I've ever known.

 

[danwarb]

So a cheap vitamin suppliment would've prevented this.

I should really go vegan to do less harm, but there's still milk in my tea and pizza. ^ Drinking cow milk is weird.

 

[Somnid]

Now I know that BMI might not the best indication of health, but for the vast majority of Americans, it still holds true. Also quotes from NIH studies:

These are averages though. I'd imagine Vegans occupy the "too low" part of the scale in significantly higher numbers than other groups. One of the bigger problems with orthorexic conditions is that it's an inverse of the norm so there's not a lot of people putting research and awareness into it.

 

[Nephtis]

Vegans often make mistakes when it comes to raising their children. So many stories of children dying or found severely malnurished because some couple decided to live by a strict vegan lifestyle -- that often includes the mother not breastfeeding their child.

Anything going too extreme in one direction will always be harmful. People who don't care to know what is too much, and/or don't seek guidance under a physician really should have no business raising a child.

 

[Raven Prime]

Don't worry, there will be more chances to understand them; they will never stop vehemently explaining their lifestyle to you.

The irony is of course is that no single vegan came in to do that before your post, yet you found a way to make a passive-aggressive remark towards vegans. I think that micro example is illustrational of the blindspot a lot of speciests have when interacting with vegans.

Vegans are confronted with a speciesistic society every day in almost any way.

These are averages though. I'd imagine Vegans occupy the "too low" part of the scale in significantly higher numbers than other groups. One of the bigger problems with orthorexic conditions is that it's an inverse of the norm so there's not a lot of people putting research and awareness into it.

You aren't trying to claim that veganism is an example of orthorexia, are you now?

 

[kamorra]

Vegans are confronted with a speciestic society every day in almost any way.

A what?

 

[Booshka]

A what?

As in, Humans aren't the dominant species on the Planet, all species should be treated equally.

Which is a strange thing for a Vegan to say, since they eat the shit out of Plants. Not sure what they have against Autotroph's.

Omnivores are equal opportunity offenders, kill and eat the whole gamut of organisms.

 

[ElTorro]

If everyone was Vegan, we aren't living. We're omnivores. We need to incorporate meat in our diets, even if it's just a bit.

Repost from page 1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Omnivores are equal opportunity offenders, kill and eat the whole gamut of organisms.

That's quite a fictional view. Just look at how many people (a majority of which is probably omnivores) went NOPE in this thread because to them certain species should be eaten and certain other species shouldn't:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=910652

Which is a strange thing for a Vegan to say, since they eat the shit out of Plants. Not sure what they have against Autotroph's.

Plants don't suffer.
And a Vegan's goal is to reduce suffering anyway; not eating animals reduces both animal suffering and global plant consumption.

 

[Raven Prime]

A what?

I should have written speciesistic, my bad. As for what speciesism means:

"An ethical stance that assigns different worth or rights to beings on the basis of their species membership, such as assigning greater rights to human beings than to other animals."

It's hard to discuss veganism, without understanding what speciesism is.

As in, Humans aren't the dominant species on the Planet, all species should be treated equally.

Which is a strange thing for a Vegan to say, since they eat the shit out of Plants. Not sure what they have against Autotroph's.

Omnivores are equal opportunity offenders, kill and eat the whole gamut of organisms.

It's not strange at all, you are confusing speciesism with kingdomism..
And humans have to eat something right, why not choose the most healthy and least impactful option? To eat animals, generally means you are indirectly eating more plants anyway, as many vegans including myself have explained again and again. So on that basis it would suggest vegans have far less against autotrophs than most non-vegans seem to.

Plants don't suffer.
And a Vegan's goal is to reduce suffering anyway; not eating animals reduces both animal suffering and global plant consumption.

This too of course. I just can't come to grips with the fact this still needs to be explained in threads like these.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is a great article for vegans so they can better understand that they gotta take extra steps to compensate for deficiencies in their diets if they are going to raise a child on their breast milk.

 

[Somnid]

The irony is of course is that no single vegan came in to do that before your post, yet you found a way to make a passive-aggressive remark towards vegans. I think that micro example is illustrational of the blindspot a lot of speciests have when interacting with vegans.

Vegans are confronted with a speciesistic society every day in almost any way.



You aren't trying to claim that veganism is an example of orthorexia, are you now?

No, I kinda realize it sounds that way but I am saying that the two overlap more than most other groups. It takes a lot of work to make veganism sustainable, there are risks of things that are just not common at all in the normal populace and it's easy to not think about them because everyone tells you about "bad" foods and being overweight. Basically it's a bit of an extreme, people have their reason to do it but it's not for everyone and it's not something most should consider without very careful consideration and diligence.

 

[kamorra]

I should have written speciesistic, my bad. As for what speciesism means:

"An ethical stance that assigns different worth or rights to beings on the basis of their species membership, such as assigning greater rights to human beings than to other animals."

It's hard to discuss veganism, without understanding what speciesism is.

Oh I do understand both concepts I just don't agree with both. I didn't know the English word for it, so I asked.

 

[Raven Prime]

No, I kinda realize it sounds that way but I am saying that the two overlap more than most other groups. It takes a lot of work to make veganism sustainable, there are risks of things that are just not common at all in the normal populace and it's easy to not think about them because everyone tells you about "bad" foods and being overweight. Basically it's a bit of an extreme, people have their reason to do it but it's not for everyone and it's not something most should consider without very careful consideration and diligence.

While there are some risks, I would argue they mostly exist because the world isn't ready to support a vegan population yet. Agriculturally and logistically we are, but when it comes to actual products it is in most places still very much a niche. As an educated vegan you will however learn where to look. As for orthorexia, it's clear that strict-vegetarianism holds a strong appeal for what I'd think are obvious reasons (veganism less because it goes beyond diet.) So I tend to agree that some/a lot of people with orthorexia might become strict vegetarians, but still that would probably mean a very small minority of strict-vegetarians suffer from orthorexia. Vegans I would expect to arrive at veganism by ethical and general philosophical reflection, sometimes simply by empathy.

Oh I do understand both concepts I just don't agree with both. I didn't know the English word for it, so I asked.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply you didn't understand the concept. I just meant in general I think it's helpful everyone here (or in discussions about veganism) also knows about speciesism.

 

[Mecha]

Yes, animal farming causes more resources to be used, but moderating it is a better solution than completely cutting it off. Being a vegan in protest isn't going to help solve the problem.

I'll respond to this since everyone else responded to your other point. Explain to me how moderating factory farming would change anything if we keep up with our current level meat consumption. If you can tell me how we can still produce meat/dairy/eggs/fish without animal suffering/death, ruining our planet/oceans, and reducing our water supply, then I'm all ears.

 

[kamorra]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply you didn't understand the concept. I just meant in general I think it's helpful everyone here (or in discussions about veganism) also knows about speciesism.

Nah, it's all good. As I said, I disagree with Veganism and Speciesism but I'm not here to fight even if it might looked like it. To each his own.

 

[Somnid]

While there are some risks, I would argue they mostly exist because the world isn't ready to support a vegan population yet. Agriculturally and logistically we are, but when it comes to actual products it is in most places still very much a niche. As an educated vegan you will however learn where to look. As for orthorexia, it's clear that strict-vegetarianism holds a strong appeal for what I'd think are obvious reasons (veganism less because it goes beyond diet.) So I tend to agree that some/a lot of people with orthorexia might become strict vegetarians, but still that would probably mean a very small minority of strict-vegetarians suffer from orthorexia. Vegans I would expect to arrive at veganism by ethical and general philosophical reflection, sometimes simply by empathy.

There's plenty to support a vegan diet, it's not made of exotic things, it's made of removing many things. I don't really buy that argument. It's a matter of the person having the education to support it, get supplements, talk to a doctor and know how to create a balanced meal (and follow through). The problem is people like food trends and they like things that have simple rules that present themselves as healthy. Very few people need, say, gluten free diets but that doesn't stop the bandwagon effect. Even ethical eaters might be prone to not getting enough nutrition because again, they don't think about it, they think a vegetable heavy diet must be healthy and it's for a good cause.

In the end it's a mindset people latch on to, often for not so good reasons. I don't think we should do away with it (personal freedom and all that) but perhaps people need to be made more aware of what that entails and why nutrition is perhaps more important than weight, and personal ethics should be just that, personal and not enforced on children, pets or anything else.