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[Dram]

http://news.yahoo.com/veterans-frustrated-presidential-debate-iraq-war-144552710.html

Veterans of the Iraq War have been watching in frustration as Republican presidential contenders distance themselves from the decision their party enthusiastically supported to invade that country.

Some veterans say they long ago concluded their sacrifice was in vain, and are annoyed that a party that lobbied so hard for the war is now running from it. Others say they still believe their mission was vital, regardless of what the politicians say. And some find the gotcha question being posed to the politicians — Knowing what we know now, would you have invaded? — an insult in itself.

The war became a campaign issue when likely presidential contender Jeb Bush was asked about the invasion ordered by his brother, former President George W. Bush. After days of questioning, Jeb Bush said that in light of what's now known — that Saddam Hussein did not have WMD stockpiles — he would not have invaded.

Other possible Republican hopefuls including New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, Sen. Marco Rubio, Sen. Ted Cruz and Ohio Gov. John Kasich all later gave similar responses.

Aaron Hinde, 33, is appalled at what he feels the U.S. invasion did to Iraq. He served there in 2003, mostly in the volatile northern city of Mosul and became active in the anti-war movement after leaving the army in 2004.

He's glad Republicans are being held accountable for the invasion, but says that answer's been known for a long time.

"It's a legitimate question to ask and a legitimate answer should be an unequivocal no," he said.

Marla Keown, who drove trucks in Iraq for a year during her time in the Army Reserve, said it's taken too long for politicians to admit the mistake of a war that killed 4,491 U.S. troops and left countless Iraqis dead.

"It's hard to see the good in war in general - let alone a war that everyone just now is realizing we shouldn't have done," said Keown, 34, who now works as a photographer in Denver.

But many vets, regardless of whether WMD was found or not, found legitimate reasons for being in Iraq. John Kriesel lost both his legs when a 200-pound bomb went off underneath his Humvee outside the western city of Fallujah. He's written a book called "Still Standing: The Story of SSG John Kriesel" detailing what he went through.

He said he's proud of what he and his unit did in Iraq to make their area safer. He speaks fondly of Iraqi children he encountered and said he'd do it again in a "heartbeat." So many questions, he said, like whether to invade Iraq or not, are easier to answer in hindsight.

The discussion comes at a particularly fraught time for veterans, who have watched Iraq steadily descend into chaos. In recent days, Islamic State militants routed Iraqi government troops to take control of the city of Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, despite American airstrikes designed to help the Iraqi forces.

Many vets blame President Obama — not Bush — for the current state of affairs, saying he was in too much of a hurry to withdraw.

On Friday, Democratic presidential contender Hillary Rodham Clinton said despite the militants' gains, U.S. ground forces should not be sent back to Iraq.

Clinton has previously called her support for the invasion a mistake.

Mike Barbero, a retired general who served three tours in Iraq, said he isn't sure the value of the hypothetical questions being asked of the candidates and would rather they be pressed on their criteria for sending troops into a potential future battle.

"What are your criteria for putting young Americans in harm's way? What lessons learned did you take away from Iraq and Afghanistan? Then you're getting into the mind of a future commander-in-chief," he said.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The war hawks and those that voted for war should own it.

I feel bad for the situation many veterans find themselves in regarding the war. It's hard to think that you that were wounded or your buddy that didn't make it back died over false Intel that war hawks gladly accepted at face value.

I think America needs to have a long look in the mirror regarding foreign policy because it seems what's always good in the short term turns out to be horrible in the long term.

 

[Volimar]

George W. Bush lied to get us into Iraq. That alone should be enough to answer the "knowing what we know now" question. Sorry to vets but you were pawns in a clusterfuck.

 

[Pocks]

ctrl + f "Paul"

no results found

Hopefully Webb gets in on the Democratic side. Where did and where does O'Malley stand?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

George W. Bush lied to get us into Iraq. That alone should be enough to answer the "knowing what we know now" question. Sorry to vets but you were pawns in a clusterfuck.

This is such a two dimensional recalling of recent history. There were many many many people that chose to go into Iraq over dubious (aka false) Intel, we should hold all of them to account come election time. Not just Bush.

 

[Volimar]

This is such a two dimensional recalling of recent history. There were many many many people that chose to go into Iraq over dubious (aka false) Intel, we should hold all of them to account come election time. Not just Bush.

Agreed, but it was his administration. I do blame others, including Powell with his doctored satellite photos.

 

[Aureon]

This is such a two dimensional recalling of recent history. There were many many many people that chose to go into Iraq over dubious (aka false) Intel, we should hold all of them to account come election time. Not just Bush.

The decision ultimately stands with the commander in chief. (Or the intel manipulation...)

There's side responsabilities, but it is Bush's cross to bear.

 

[Furyous]

How is this Obama's fault? We can't stay there forever in the same way we couldn't maintain a presence in other conflicts long-term. It's not Obama's fault he inherited a recession after all.

Now that the postmortem is on, let's talk about the fuckery that was the entire trajectory of the Iraq war:

The listed reasons were bullshit to begin with.

The Bush administration chose to pursue a flawed strategy from the start. Basically accounting for a victory but failing to see the consequences both long and short of that victory.

The cost of waging war is something we deal with today so it's sad to see all of these Presidential candidates distancing themselves from that choice.

Before I take off, contrast that patriotism with this fuckery we have now. You weren't patriotic if you didn't agree with the administration. This is America and we believe in the President!

Now it's cool to disrespect the office of President and show absolute disdain for our President. Police officers don't respect the President ditto for politicians.

All of this is surreal and goes back to the Iraq war.

 

[M1ch04c4n0]

They are angry that they wasted youth and lives in an illegal invasion intended to make a few rich fucks even richer?

Color me surprised!

 

[Rubenov]

Spent a ton of money and lives just to make it a worse place.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I'm over it, two years I'll never get back with baggage to carry forever. The country was stable and under control, then it turned into a shit show and everyone I ever worked with has probably been raped/beheaded by now. Who do I blame? The people in charge on both sides, because there was a solution but it wasn't worth the effort to pursue.

 

[Link]

How is this Obama's fault? We can't stay there forever in the same way we couldn't maintain a presence in other conflicts long-term. It's not Obama's fault he inherited a recession after all.

The same reason Hurricane Katrina and the financial crash is his fault: People can't admit when their own party is to blame.

I'm over it, two years I'll never get back with baggage to carry forever. The country was stable and under control, then it turned into a shit show and everyone I ever worked with has probably been raped/beheaded by now. Who do I blame? The people in charge on both sides, because there was a solution but it wasn't worth the effort to pursue.

Exhibit A.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

The same reason Hurricane Katrina and the financial crash is his fault: People can't admit when their own party is to blame.

Exhibit A.

The fuck? When has anyone blamed Katrina on Obama? He wasn't even on the political radar, and bush was still in power during the crash.

 

[Link]

The fuck? When has anyone blamed Katrina on Obama? He wasn't even on the political radar, and bush was still in power during the crash.

It's actually a thing, sadly. Google it. I'll let you choose which source you want to go with.

 

[bengraven]

 

[Eighty Deuce]

It's actually a thing, sadly. Google it. I'll let you choose which source you want to go with.

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm over it, two years I'll never get back with baggage to carry forever. The country was stable and under control, then it turned into a shit show and everyone I ever worked with has probably been raped/beheaded by now. Who do I blame? The people in charge on both sides, because there was a solution but it wasn't worth the effort to pursue.

Indefinite occupation and shoveling bribe money wasn't a realistic strategy.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Indefinite occupation and shoveling bribe money wasn't a realistic strategy.

Well the current situation gives it credibility. So much so that it changed the afghan exit strategy.

 

[Dude Abides]

Well the current situation gives it credibility. So much so that it changed the afghan exit strategy.

No it doesn't. There was no exit strategy. Throwing good money (and bodies) after bad isn't a strategy. Well, I guess it is a strategy, but not a good one.

 

[Coriolanus]

No it doesn't. There was no exit strategy. Throwing good money (and bodies) after bad isn't a strategy. Well, I guess it is a strategy, but not a good one.

believe they call such scenarios sunk cost fallacies.

Well the current situation gives it credibility. So much so that it changed the afghan exit strategy.

what afghan exit strategy? best they could manage so far is preventing two puppets from going at each other and setting them up as heads of government. Taliban will be right back in charge as soon as the US leaves.

Or did things change?

 

[googleplex]

But many vets, regardless of whether WMD was found or not, found legitimate reasons for being in Iraq. John Kriesel lost both his legs when a 200-pound bomb went off underneath his Humvee outside the western city of Fallujah. He's written a book called "Still Standing: The Story of SSG John Kriesel" detailing what he went through.

He said he's proud of what he and his unit did in Iraq to make their area safer. He speaks fondly of Iraqi children he encountered and said he'd do it again in a "heartbeat." So many questions, he said, like whether to invade Iraq or not, are easier to answer in hindsight.

Oh fuck you guy.

I'm over it, two years I'll never get back with baggage to carry forever. The country was stable and under control, then it turned into a shit show and everyone I ever worked with has probably been raped/beheaded by now. Who do I blame? The people in charge on both sides, because there was a solution but it wasn't worth the effort to pursue.

No. fucking no.