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[M1chl]

Honestly, I think that while it's a good argument for "small" developers, I'm not sure it can be extrapolated to all developers. In context, we are talking about the developers who created this game:

It is not my intention to discredit, but there are developers with more or less experience, greater or lesser budget... it could be that, for example, memory configuration or API management are more difficult on Xbox Series. If you work on the platform optimally and overcome its "difficulties" you can take advantage of the greater bandwidth compared to PS5. These difficulties will affect small developers more. There is something that the developers have already made clear on multiple occasions: PS5 is more developer-friendly. And to this we must add that it is a much better-selling console, the games come out with fewer polishing problems, etc.

I think that experienced developers with PC/Xbox games, like Asobo Studio or Remedy, are probably more capable than the studio that created The Touryst, they have created two of the most visually spectacular games of the generation, and both perform better in Xbox. And above all, Remedy and its Northlight engine require a large amount of VRAM and bandwidth. If PS5 really had any memory/bandwidth advantage, I'm pretty sure Remedy would have used it.

Wasn't also this game ported to PS5 like a year after Xbox one? If so, not fair comparison. Also while good, this game is rather simplistic, for that optimization™ you need to rewrite shaders and a lot of stuff basically, fundamental stuff. So it ain't easy to go PS5 <> DX12

 

[Vergil1992]

99% of those threads end up making console warriors look like that Simpsons meme where two monkeys are about to fight each other and everyone else around them cheers.

There are differences worth discussing such as this one or A Plague Tale or Callisto Protocol but when one consoles has lows of 58fps vs 59fps for the other, it's nothing short of comical to watch system warriors go at it for over 5 pages trying to claim a "win". What is very consistent between both parties however is how if you bring PC into the mix, then suddenly max settings vs medium makes no difference and ray tracing is pointless, as is 120fps that so claimed is a minimal difference over 60fps (not even joking). Oh, and let's not forget that you need a $2000 PC to match consoles.

Yep, hat's more or less what I'm trying to say. There are definitely cases that, beyond technical curiosity, seem absolutely anecdotal to me. As for example the case of the latest COD: MW3. We are talking about that in a specific area of the game PS5 was locked at 60fps while in XSX it dropped to 59fps randomly from time to time. DF also showed that when the performance dropped to 57-58fps on PS5, on Xbox it also dropped to exactly the same figures, so we can deduce that the real performance is approximately the same. If it were a case similar to Alan Wake, XSX would always (or at least on most occasions) be below. Even the previous COD showed more significant performance differences but in favor of Series X (I think about 5fps more).


But the point is that saying something like "well, AW2 is already a past issue, after this game there have already been games that on PS5 surpassed XSX", seems to me to lack the truth and an important bias of the information . Because the two games that he has mentioned are practically the same, it is not a clear victory, it is rather an "academic" curiosity, or for those of us who like these debates. Alan Wake 2 has an obvious performance difference in favor of Xbox Series X. Or the example you give of Callisto Protocol also showed a significant difference in favor of PS5. But I don't think it is correct to equate very different cases. COD MW3 would be a victory by a negligible difference, if there is a winner. But a game where on one system you can run at 60fps while on another it's running at 50fps in every area of the Cauldron Lake forest... I think it's in a different league.

 

[SKYF@ll]

90% of games have the same performance on PS5 and XSX.
There are very few games that we can count that have huge differences.
PS5 and XSX will continue to run games with similar performance in next-gen games.
*720-1200p/60fps, 1080-1440p/30fps up to 4K (FSR)

 

[Bernkastel]

Of course.. I just see more of the green folk doing that.

Ofcourse.. The most dedicated warriors are always the one who convince themselves only the other fanbases are warring. This is how they validate themselves.

 

[Lysandros]

Add to them
plague tale requiem
the quarry
Hitman 3
Crysis games
Bright Memory Infinite
Etc

Ah, John's —'he who hates console wars'— infamous and not at all arbitrary recap from two years ago. Certainly used quite alot by Xbox over enthusiasts to prove XSX's inherent 'hardware superiority' ever since regardless of whole picture based on broader sources telling a rather different story. You know, he is hardly the sole person who is doing comparison analysis in the industry and time by its nature 'flows'... While at it one should ask about Michael's (NXgamer) own take about the matter for example or take a look at DF's own last few comparisons.

 

[adamsapple]

Of course.. I just see more of the green folk doing that.

 

[SKYF@ll]

Alan Wake 2 update 1.2.3 notes — Alan Wake

Latest update notes for Alan Wake 2.

www.alanwake.com

The performance upgrade is most visible in the PlayStation 5 Quality mode, where (incredibly) there are up to 1.8ms improvements.
Improved streaming by removing occasional 10 – 100ms stalls that mostly affected Xbox Series platforms.
We are still working on the audio sync being off for some players on Xbox Series and expect to address this in our next update.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Alan Wake 2 update 1.2.3 notes — Alan Wake

Latest update notes for Alan Wake 2.

www.alanwake.com

The performance upgrade is most visible in the PlayStation 5 Quality mode, where (incredibly) there are up to 1.8ms improvements.
Improved streaming by removing occasional 10 – 100ms stalls that mostly affected Xbox Series platforms.
We are still working on the audio sync being off for some players on Xbox Series and expect to address this in our next update.

Cauldron Lake should be coughing less.

It reminds me Plague tale requiem where only PS5 got massive performance improvements with patches. Like Alan Wake 2 this game was obviously optimized on Xbox for launch.

 

[Darsxx82]

It reminds me Plague tale requiem where only PS5 got massive performance improvements with patches. Like Alan Wake 2 this game was obviously optimized on Xbox for launch.

No. Plague Tale Requiem got improvement performance in XSX versión also. The 40fps mode Is lock on XSX vs PS5.
The difference is that you cannot see how far the performance improvement is because the framerate was locked or practically always reached the goal.

The AW2 patch seems to be full of optimizations for the rest of the platforms as well. For me, the most important thing is that it seems that they have improved/reduced shimmering and artifacts on shiny objects.

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

Or simply Remedy has given it the optimization and polishing time that other Studios do not give to said version....

Between hardware so equal in power and the same architectural base, the optimization and polishing time is surely what tips the balance.
It doesn't help XSX to have 1/3 or less consoles on the market than PS5 and also share optimization time with XSS dont help. Not all Studios have the same capacity to allow such things the launch day. That is why in this generation we are seeing, almost abusively, patches that correct the lack of polish and optimization on all platforms.

Finally, someone who gets it. There is way less incentive to optimise for Xbox-specific features i.e. SFS, VRS2, DirectML or Mesh shaders. As you stated, this is primarily due to the smaller hardware base. This is on Microsoft of course but it's a shame even their own first-party titles haven't utilised DirectML or SFS. I hope the PS5 Pro adopts VRS2 hardware and Mesh Shaders so that we at least get more titles making use of those features.

 

[Hugare]

Alan Wake 2 update 1.2.3 notes — Alan Wake

Latest update notes for Alan Wake 2.

www.alanwake.com

The performance upgrade is most visible in the PlayStation 5 Quality mode, where (incredibly) there are up to 1.8ms improvements.
Improved streaming by removing occasional 10 – 100ms stalls that mostly affected Xbox Series platforms.
We are still working on the audio sync being off for some players on Xbox Series and expect to address this in our next update.

Performance is still quite shitty on the PS5 in Quality mode with the new patch

I've just booted it up to test it on Saga's most "busier" chapter, and it still runs like ass. Didnt notice any performance improvements.

I've enjoyed the game quite a bit, but I have no urge to replay it with this level of performance

 

[Lysandros]

Finally, someone who gets it. There is way less incentive to optimise for Xbox-specific features i.e. SFS, VRS2, DirectML or Mesh shaders. As you stated, this is primarily due to the smaller hardware base. This is on Microsoft of course but it's a shame even their own first-party titles haven't utilised DirectML or SFS. I hope the PS5 Pro adopts VRS2 hardware and Mesh Shaders so that we at least get more titles making use of those features.

It has been explained multiple times, directx 12U mesh shaders is done via the primitive shader hardware in AMD/RDNA2/XSX. PS5 is doing primitive shaders 1:1 natively with this same hardware without conversion. XSX doesn't have a specific 'mesh shaders hardware'. As to hardware VRS its inclusion isn't worth the cuts in ROP hardware, since the same or even superior results can be obtained with a software solution without compromising fill rate throughput.
If XSX had any magic performance improvement to gain from DirectML or SFS, first party studios would be the first ones to use them extensively. XSX isn't performing on par with PS5 became its hardware isn't used properly, it is performing on par because it's an evenly matched system with PS5. We are entering the fourth year into the generation, maybe it's about time to appreciate those systems for what they truly are not what we wish them to be.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

It has been explained multiple times, directx 12U mesh shaders is done via the primitive shader hardware in AMD/RDNA2/XSX. PS5 is doing primitive shaders 1:1 natively with this same hardware without conversation. XSX doesn't have a specific 'mesh shaders hardware'. As to hardware VRS its inclusion isn't worth the cuts in ROP hardware, since the same or even superior results can be obtained with a software solution without compromising fill rate throughput.
If XSX had any magic performance improvement to gain from DirectML or SFS, first partie studios would be the first ones to use them extensively. XSX isn't performing on par with PS5 became its hardware isn't used properly, it is performing on par because it's an evenly system with PS5. We are entering the fourth year into the generation, maybe it's about time to appreciate those systems for what they truly are not what we wish them to be.

 

[adamsapple]

Performance is still quite shitty on the PS5 in Quality mode with the new patch

I've just booted it up to test it on Saga's most "busier" chapter, and it still runs like ass. Didnt notice any performance improvements.

I've enjoyed the game quite a bit, but I have no urge to replay it with this level of performance

Can you do a quick run through Cauldron Lake forest in Performance mode? Does it still feel like it's stretches of 50~ ?

 

[Hugare]

Can you do a quick run through Cauldron Lake forest in Performance mode? Does it still feel like it's stretches of 50~ ?

Dont have a TV that can count frames, but it seems stable. I would say it sticks north of 50 most of the time.

Looks noticeably worse than Quality tho

 

[thatJohann]

I've been playing on PS5 on Performance Mode with VRR and it's been perfectly fine.

I don't think the graphic improvements of Quality mode warrant the sluggishness of 30fps.

I keep wanting to like this game as I play it but I just keep getting frustrated. So many game mechanics that I find confusing and the lack of direction means I never know where to go.

The objectives are so unclear. They're like the technical challenges of Great British Baking Show where Prue or Paul say "Make the cake" with ZERO instructions on how. I get that some gamers like putting in the work, but some of us with limited time to play would appreciate an assisted easy mode with a waypoint telling me where to go cause it's way too obtuse.

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

It has been explained multiple times, directx 12U mesh shaders is done via the primitive shader hardware in AMD/RDNA2/XSX. PS5 is doing primitive shaders 1:1 natively with this same hardware without conversation. XSX doesn't have a specific 'mesh shaders hardware'. As to hardware VRS its inclusion isn't worth the cuts in ROP hardware, since the same or even superior results can be obtained with a software solution without compromising fill rate throughput.
If XSX had any magic performance improvement to gain from DirectML or SFS, first partie studios would be the first ones to use them extensively. XSX isn't performing on par with PS5 became its hardware isn't used properly, it is performing on par because it's an evenly system with PS5. We are entering the fourth year into the generation, maybe it's about time to appreciate those systems for what they truly are not what we wish them to be.

What a vivid imagination.

The entire mesh shader thing has always been a massive cope from team blue. Mesh shaders are an evolution of primitive shaders. If the PS5 supported mesh shaders then Cerny would have said so. Why is it that games stated specifically to include mesh shaders perform way better on Series devices? I.e. AW2, Dead Space etc.

VRS2 in hardware absolutely is worth any minor hardware cost. Current GPU manufactures all currently support VRS2 in hardware. If it wasn’t worth it then why would they include it? The developers behind Doom Eternal sure did think it was a great addition if you wanna check those interviews out.

DirectML allows for new experiences. Advanced AI and other innovative new possibilities. The problem, as stated, is that Xbox is the only device that supports these low level INT4 and INT8 calculations. Any game that wants to implement DirectML as a major feature would struggle to implement it efficiently on PS5 or older PCs. I completely agree that Microsoft has failed to showcase any of the hardware feature advantages that they have over its competitors.

SFS, another feature with the same problem as above. It likely requires considerable effort to implement. Due to the small install base of the Series devices then it isn’t worth it regardless of any improvements. The thing is, as these technologies become central to DirectX12 and there is greater support in the PC space, there will be more of an incentive to implement them.

Lastly, Xbox is performing better in the majority of games. Not all of course but most. This advantage is typically eaten up in higher average variable resolutions which are difficult to notice with game settings typically a match between systems. That shouldn’t even be a controversial take if you have been paying attention but you no doubt will take issue.

 

[twilo99]

90% of games have the same performance on PS5 and XSX.
There are very few games that we can count that have huge differences.
PS5 and XSX will continue to run games with similar performance in next-gen games.
*720-1200p/60fps, 1080-1440p/30fps up to 4K (FSR)

Yes, and 90% of those small differences are down to the developer and not the difference in hardware..

 

[twilo99]

What a vivid imagination.

The entire mesh shader thing has always been a massive cope from team blue. Mesh shaders are an evolution of primitive shaders. If the PS5 supported mesh shaders then Cerny would have said so. Why is it that games stated specifically to include mesh shaders perform way better on Series devices? I.e. AW2, Dead Space etc.

VRS2 in hardware absolutely is worth any minor hardware cost. Current GPU manufactures all currently support VRS2 in hardware. If it wasn’t worth it then why would they include it? The developers behind Doom Eternal sure did think it was a great addition if you wanna check those interviews out.

DirectML allows for new experiences. Advanced AI and other innovative new possibilities. The problem, as stated, is that Xbox is the only device that supports these low level INT4 and INT8 calculations. Any game that wants to implement DirectML as a major feature would struggle to implement it efficiently on PS5 or older PCs. I completely agree that Microsoft has failed to showcase any of the hardware feature advantages that they have over its competitors.

SFS, another feature with the same problem as above. It likely requires considerable effort to implement. Due to the small install base of the Series devices then it isn’t worth it regardless of any improvements. The thing is, as these technologies become central to DirectX12 and there is greater support in the PC space, there will be more of an incentive to implement them.

Lastly, Xbox is performing better in the majority of games. Not all of course but most. This advantage is typically eaten up in higher average variable resolutions which are difficult to notice with game settings typically a match between systems. That shouldn’t even be a controversial take if you have been paying attention but you no doubt will take issue.

The small install base of DX12 hardware is indeed an issue if you expect developers to take full advantage. I think at this point it's safe to assume that there are more developers maximizing the PS5 hardware compared to hardware that supports DX12 and even less xbox specific features..

 

[Vergil1992]

It reminds me Plague tale requiem where only PS5 got massive performance improvements with patches. Like Alan Wake 2 this game was obviously optimized on Xbox for launch.

It isn't true. A Plague Tale Requiem had massive performance improvements on all platforms, especially on PC, the game had a serious CPU bottleneck and a Zen2 was unable to exceed 40-50fps in some parts: cities, areas with lots of rats , etc. That's why there was no performance mode at launch, even now the consoles have moments where they have CPU limitations (the number of rats was also reduced).

On PS5 it seemed that the improvement was greater because the framerate was locked and the framerate drops were less frequent and it had gained a few fps.

The gap between both platforms did not change with the updates. In fact, with the framerate unlocked, the difference was greater. Sometimes it could be sparse (4-5fps) but other times it was very large and consistently so.

My feelings about Alan Wake 2 and A Plague Tale: Requiem are that they simply work better on Xbox because they are competent developers and the machine's capabilities, and also because they are developers familiar with optimizing for PC; Xbox benefits from this, coincidentally the games that run the worst on Xbox are often games with terrible optimization on PC (Callisto Protocol, Hogwarts Legacy are terrible). Maybe in a future analysis they will prove me wrong, but I think that PS5 will at best improve its average framerate in Alan Wake 2, but I doubt that they achieved a 60fps lock in areas where it was running at 50fps. Sometimes cross stuttering in some PC games (like Atomic Heart) affected Xbox Series X. A Plague Tale It is possible that Asobo had a preference for the Xbox version, but... Alan Wake 2 NO.



It was always shown on PS5, users even asked Remedy if something was happening with the Xbox versions, even in the latest patch note they continue to fix bugs that are in the Xbox Series version and not in the PS5 version. I highly doubt that the Series X version is the developer's "preferred",
From the beginning it had more late patches and bugs that had taken longer to correct.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that when we see examples like A Plague Tale: Requiem or Alan Wake 2, where they are generally polished games and without being "broken" on any platform, if Xbox has the advantage on PS5 it is never solved , because it is a difference in power.


However, with several games where there was a much superior version on PS5, there were clear signs that the Xbox Series X version was broken. Examples? Callisto Protocol seems the best to me. DF discovered that when they already had a stable 30fps on PS5, on Xbox it was going at 20-25fps (currently it's a pretty stable 30fps, not sure if it's the same as PS5, but definitely better than at launch), and the updates were improving the game massively on Xbox Series After an update, RT was applied on Series X but with a much lower quality result than on PS5; later, in some unknown update, the RT was almost identical on PS5/XSX.



In A Plague Tale the situation is completely different. There was nothing "broken" about PS5. Simply if in an area on PS5 it dropped to 33fps, on Xbox Series X it was 40fps. After a few patches the performance improved and on PS5 the average was better, but with Xbox and a solid lock, it is impossible to know if these were general optimizations or specific to PS5. Although the fact that it maintains the advantage in performance mode (60fps) and is accentuated with the unlocked framerate should give us a clue.