VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed

lherre said:
Sorry I can't talk about that, in fact, this is my last comment in one of this threads (i mean consolewars, specs, etc, I will participate in gaf in the rest of the forums).
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ahh I understand. See you in other threads then!

Apophis2036 said:
Bgassassin was laughed of the forum for saying that almost a year ago...
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Good thing bg is my hero. Wish he would come back.

Reiko said:
Fuck... NDA.

Oh well. Thanks anyway.




My bad.
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Lol I wasn't serious
 
zomgbbqftw said:
Until we have them in hand no cost comparison can be done. I am postulating based on specs and availability of hardware that Sony will have a cost advantage, assuming they use 8x 4Gb GDDR5 chips rather than 16x 2Gb ones. MS will be using 16x 4Gbit DDR3 chips initially which will increase motherboard complexity and cooling requirements.

At the very least, it means MS will not have a cost advantage as is currently assumed given the lesser power. Having 4Gb chips from the off halves the cost of the most expensive component in Orbis and MS are giving away their GPU savings for ESRAM on the APU.

Cape Verde is 123mm^2, with the extra CUs that pushes it to ~ 150mm^2, the ESRAM adds a further 40mm^2 and adds complexity which will depress yields.

Pitcarin is 212mm^2 but Sony haven't got all 20CUs, whether that is down to yields or they have removed them altogether is not known. The difference is not significant (and if Sony have removed the extra 2 CUs then it's non existent), and given the lesser complexity of Sony's APU, it will have higher yields.

So there you have it. Numbers.
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I hope somebody comments on this.
 
lherre said:
Sorry I can't talk about that, in fact, this is my last comment in one of this threads (i mean consolewars, specs, etc, I will participate in gaf in the rest of the forums).
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you can say durango is a more powerfull(in the past with no problem),now you are keeping silent?
ok
 
Kaijima said:
Can't help but feel the fact that some comments are already calling this an "underpowered" machine just highlights how the power wars are subjective and increasingly pointless.
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Reminds me of 8 years ago when Sony fans lovingly referred to the 360 as Xbox 1.5.
 
Even if MS's focus was the amount of features of its new box... We still have to consider if these perks are behind the dreaded paywall... If they do decide to abolish that paywall for most of its features... Then they will have to retrofit that to the 360... Which they can prolly use as a marketing dealy to attract more sales.

But then again... MS might pull on the 360 what they did to the original XBOX and abandon it completely in favor of the new console...
 
lherre said:
Sorry I can't talk about that, in fact, this is my last comment in one of this threads (i mean consolewars, specs, etc, I will participate in gaf in the rest of the forums).
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Well there you have it.

MS can't have devs running around saying their console is weaker. Dat NDA

Imo the whole "wash" thing folks, comes down to the same game being able to exist in both consoles without having to be "redesigned".

I'm guessing that in order for it to not be a wash, the difference would have to be Wii -> Ps3.

Proelite said:
Highly unlikely.
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What happened to all that stuff about GCN2 and Durango being more powerful?

The time for truth always comes.
 
Shadow of the BEAST said:
I dont understand why they are wasting so much energy on dvr crap?

the people who are going to buy the first 10-20 million of these console hardly watch tv as it is.
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1. You greatly overestimate the size and enthusiasm of the hardcore crowd.
2. It's the non-enthusiast audience they're aiming for. Microsoft is banking on Joe Casual being more interested in the Durango's lower MSRP, DVR and media center functionality, and pack-in Kinect for the kids than about the Orbis having a faster GPU and better memory bandwidth.
 
Can Crusher said:
Well there you have it.

MS can't have devs running around saying their console is weaker. Dat NDA

Imo the whole "wash" thing folks, comes down to the same game being able to exist in both consoles without having to be "redesigned".

I'm guessing that in order for it to not be a wash, the difference would have to be Wii -> Ps3.
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But we have a dev telling Edge PS4 is slightly stronger. Funny how that works. lol
 
DopeyFish said:
I think people just look at some numbers and go omg its less powerful11!

These are specs and theoretical maximums, not real world performance- just like to remind everyone of that.
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but the same is true for both platforms, and both are using similar GPU and CPU architectures, so comparisons are valid I think.
 
Felix Lighter said:
The thing is going from 30 fps to say 40 fps, is pointless, because it would actually look stuttery and less smooth than a locked 30 fps on 60Hz displays but if they are able to achieve 60 fps, it will look and feel much better. So if they can't double the framerate (assuming Durango will be targeting 30 fps) the extra power would be better utilized for IQ or something other than framerate.
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Fair enough.

On the flip side if Orbis is the lead dev platform and 60fps is targeted Durango could revert to 30fps. I seem to recall some sports games (Madden etc) hitting 60fps on 360 while only managing 30fps on PS3 early in the consoles life.
 
I'm honestly really surprised at this info. I thought that once we saw the customizations that Microsoft did to the GPU we would clearly be able to see how they were going to close the performance gap but this makes the GPU seem even weaker than we previously thought.
 
lherre said:
Sorry I can't talk about that, in fact, this is my last comment in one of this threads (i mean consolewars, specs, etc, I will participate in gaf in the rest of the forums).
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You can't talk specifics about each platform, NDA doesn't cover commenting on difference in power as long as you don't mention specifics. Or, if you got paid not to say anything.
 
lherre said:
Because the specs didn't change. Simply as that.

Alpha kits -> Beta kits -> Final kits

Beta kits are more or less final kits (final silicon).
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Then are we missing part of the picture with Durango's specs? I don't understand any of the claims about these systems being a "wash" with what we know so far. Edit: I now see you're not commenting on these systems here anymore, so nevermind on my question. =p

mrklaw said:
if they are trying to disrupt (eg to try and grab the living room before Apple comes in and does it), then arguably the core gamer demographic may overlap the 'integrated tech living room home automation early adopter' demographic too. So there might be a market for a games console that also turns your heating down to stop your palms sweating.

I think its a stretch, especially against a sea of $99 streaming boxes all offering free access to almost all existing services. But I'll certainly be interested to see them try.

I'd also like to see global reactions if MS push something that is very US focused with cable company partnerships etc. If they are reserving memory for things that 2/3 of the world won't benefit from, thats not good.
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That's another thing, they are going to have to make some major changes to Live if they wish to compete with these other streaming boxes.

Being more expensive, just to play games, and on top of that locking many of these features behind a paywall is just asking for failure.
 
Orayn said:
1. You greatly overestimate the size and enthusiasm of the hardcore crowd.
2. It's the non-enthusiast audience they're aiming for. Microsoft is banking on Joe Casual being more interested in the Durango's lower MSRP, DVR and media center functionality, and pack-in Kinect for the kids than about the Orbis having a faster GPU and better memory bandwidth.
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I really think people are actually underestimating Sony's ability to come out with great services for PS4 though. Yes the PS3 wasn't all that great in comparison to 360, but I doubt Sony are going to not overhaul their OS and services with PS4. And even if Durango offer even more stuff, how much of that matter. What if Sony offer multitasking, netflix and other video streaming services as well as social features like sharing videos and expansion of Livearea feature. Let's say Durango offers all that and more. will people care about anything more than that or will all that PS4 offers is enough.
 
The first thing I that jumped out at me in the block diagram were these "CB" and "DB" blocks. Referenced here:

The advantages of ESRAM are lower latency and lack of contention from other memory clients—for instance the CPU, I/O, and display output. Low latency is particularly important for sustaining peak performance of the color blocks (CBs) and depth blocks (DBs).
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Then in more details here:

The GPU contains four physical instances of both the CB and the DB. Each is capable of handling one quad per clock cycle for a total throughput of 16 pixels per clock cycle, or 12.8 Gpixel/sec. The CB is optimized for 64-bit-per-pixel types, so there is no local performance advantage in using smaller color formats, although there may still be a substantial bandwidth savings.

Because alpha-blending requires both a read and a write, it potentially consumes twice the bandwidth of opaque rendering, and for some color formats, it also runs at half rate computationally. Likewise, because depth testing involves a read from the depth buffer, and depth update involves a write to the depth buffer, enabling either state can reduce overall performance.
Depth and Stencil
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I wonder how to read this info. I hope someone at B3D with some knowledge comments on this.
 
nib95 said:
Any update on your opinion of Orbis vs Durango in terms of power/graphical potency?
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These questions don't make sense at all.

Guy says specs haven't changed since in like a year, posts a comment 2 months ago and people think he has something new to say just because we got a new leak?

He knew all of this when he made his comment.
 
lherre said:
Sorry I can't talk about that, in fact, this is my last comment in one of this threads (i mean consolewars, specs, etc, I will participate in gaf in the rest of the forums).
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Is there a time (I'm not asking when) where you won't be under NDA or won't endanger the job of friends/colleagues and when you will be able to openly discuss this?

After the reveal, after they are out, whenever really.

We have no idea how vague MS or Sony will be about what's in their consoles (could be as bad as nintendo reveal and release i.e saying pretty much nothing)
I'd sure like to know what I'm buying, rather than trust that the 'magic mistery box' will deliver what is promised by PR.
 
Orayn said:
1. You greatly overestimate the size and enthusiasm of the hardcore crowd.
2. It's the non-enthusiast audience they're aiming for. Microsoft is banking on Joe Casual being more interested in the Durango's lower MSRP, DVR and media center functionality, and pack-in Kinect for the kids than about the Orbis having a faster GPU and better memory bandwidth.
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joe casual buys console once it goes below 250 or so. not at 300 dollar plus.

The first 10-20m console goes to gaming and tech enthusiast males.

who probably dont watch that much broadcast tv anymore.
 
Reiko said:
But we have a dev telling Edge PS4 is slightly stronger. Funny how that works. lol
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Yes. A mysterious 'dev source'.

On the other hand, We have Lherre who is a dev on gaf and he said that the machines are basically a wash. I know who I believe.
 
aegies said:
I would be more interested to see developers explain the "it's a wash" comments, since they're the ones making them. I never said "secret sauce." I said additional hardware to help performance, which is in the diagram. Also, numerous comments and hints I made were validated by the diagram. I've never said the GPU put out more flops than Orbis's solution. I haven't even said Durango was more powerful for quite a while (which disappeared once I got flop numbers for both and the "they aren't representative" talk).

I've said repeatedly there's hardware to get around the memory bandwidth limitations, that it targets efficiency, and that developers seem to like it. None of that is disproven or declared "bullshit" by this. I feel like I've tried pretty hard not to get into the power-pissing contest. I've only gone on record as saying the systems aren't far apart (which I continue to hear), and that Durango isn't "weak" by any definition. I understand that there's a desire to lump everything every person who has had something positive to say about the system together into one meta-poster, but that's not the case.

And yeah, the diagram and specs are accurate as of last February, though it isn't the exact diagram I've seen. I don't know if VGLeaks made it themselves based on their own conjecture or not.

Edit: also, they're still not talking about the hardware display planes (there are three, one is reserved for the OS, and each can render at a different resolution), which are definitely a thing, and the move engines, which are also a thing.
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Here is my thing Aegies. You have clearly showed yourself to have a 'leaning' in this particular race between the two consoles.

I remember not to long ago you were telling all of us you were hearing Durango was clearly superior this being a sentiment not echoed by everyone on the board but one I took more seriously from you since I would assume you to have superior connections in the industry.

It appears though that you were completely wrong. Of our 'insiders' on here you have proved you don't really have a solid basis for anything you tell us especially when compared to Proelite and Thueway)

Now that's fine but you go to great efforts to spin things to Durango's favor in some way.

What were hearing from Gaming Media is:

-Orbis is more powerful(how big the gap is depends on the site)
-Devs love Orbis: Sony has taken a much more active roll in providing a friendly system.

What you tell us:

-Orbis's advantages will be nullified with components not revealed on Durango.
-Devs don't like Orbis and if anything are much more excited for Durango!

Maybe this bothers me because I wanted to believe you were right cause I love my 360 and I am really excited about Microsofts next console but you are definitely not my source for legitimate information anymore.
 
Do it have real "wash" standard?

I assume everyone have different standard. Aka for me, 720p@27fps 10% screen tear vs 720p@30fps no tear with little better texture/filter, is not "wash" to me. Maybe I'm more into PC. Little thing is big deal for me.
 
cyberheater said:
Yes. A mysterious 'dev source'.

On the other hand, We have Lherre who is a dev on gaf and he said that the machines are basically a wash. I know who I believe.
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Being "a wash" doesn't mean that one isn't slightly more powerful than the other. And being a dev doesn't make you competent at what you do or have all knowledge/comprehension of the hardware/architecture.
 
KAL2006 said:
I really think people are actually underestimating Sony's ability to come out with great services for PS4 though. Yes the PS3 wasn't all that great in comparison to 360, but I doubt Sony are going to not overhaul their OS and services with PS4. And even if Durango offer even more stuff, how much of that matter. What if Sony offer multitasking, netflix and other video streaming services as well as social features like sharing videos and expansion of Livearea feature. Let's say Durango offers all that and more. will people care about anything more than that or will all that PS4 offers is enough.
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Totally agree with the bolded. I've been saying for some time in terms of corporate strategy there is very little difference between MS and Sony.

Sony is certainly capable of delivering multimedia effectively and that's a priority for them. That's no difference than MS.
 
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