Support NeoGAF

[FuturusX]

No always online would be worse than no used games.who cares about used games,online only is worse easily. there will be a time when used games are no more anyways.

You will need to validate a code before install - requiring an internet connection. No Internet connection, no install, no install, no play. Beyond that 'always on' has no significance to offline play.

If that's the concern, I think we can all calm down. Any other model is unnecessary burden on resources. A more draconian approach would be to require a heartbeat style check-in. More secure yes, but in a closed system like a console, absolute overkill. You can always add additional piracy checks during actual online games and live updates. I'll be shocked if there is any other method to doing this.

Used games are big deal. It's a big market, you don't get to shut down a trade and not hear about it.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

No always online would be worse than no used games.who cares about used games,online only is worse easily. there will be a time when used games are no more anyways.

Why does it matter which is worse? Why argue about that?

Why compromise and accept either? Even if you believe that eventually we will lose used games, why would you speed it up by accepting it?

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

You will need to validate a code before install - requiring an internet connection. No Internet connection, no install, no install, no

And that's why you won't see this,no even profitable for business

 

[Syphon Filter]

Why does it matter which is worse? Why argue about that?

Why compromise and accept either? Even if you believe that eventually we will lose used games, why would you speed it up by accepting it?

Not accepting it,i just don't care about used games.

 

[DesertFox]

No always online would be worse than no used games.who cares about used games,online only is worse easily. there will be a time when used games are no more anyways.

I don't think that always online necessarily means DRM. Remember your cable box is also always on, always online. Microsoft has expressed interest in providing television services - that's what immediately popped into my mind.

 

[shinra-bansho]

-we were discussing it a few pages back and I am pretty sure that's what was being implied.

-that patent would be bad ass ..I am firmly in the -I bought it, let me play it at the push of a button and don't make me see the disc after first install ever again- camp.

Well, I would say people suggesting the console will need to be always online are wrong. But I think this information in conjunction with EDGE's info, strongly suggests that they'll utilize their network for some sort of DRM.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I don't think that always online necessarily means DRM. Remember your cable box is also always on, always online. Microsoft has expressed interest in providing television services - that's what immediately popped into my mind.

... so if they want to provide the same services as a cable box, and it'll be by making the box always online...

... how is it not always online?

 

[Klocker]

Well, I would say people suggesting the console will need to be always online are wrong. But I think this information in conjunction with EDGE's info, strongly suggests that they'll utilize their network for some sort of DRM.

agreed

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Well, I would say people suggesting the console will need to be always online are wrong. But I think this information in conjunction with EDGE's info, strongly suggests that they'll utilize their network for some sort of DRM.

Ban hammer,just like 360

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Well, I would say people suggesting the console will need to be always online are wrong. But I think this information in conjunction with EDGE's info, strongly suggests that they'll utilize their network for some sort of DRM.

So does that mean you won't be able to just buy the console and play games on it without ever connecting it to the internet?

How many people would that rule out?

 

[Cth]

Any chance that Kinect could be used to secure discs to a user?

As in, face the sensor to "unlock" the disc for play (one time only)? That way you can still go to friends houses to play the game once you face verify.

That way discs become "unusable" by anyone except for the original owner, unless they pay a fee to re-associate a new face with the disc, while still making allowances for sharing games/taking them on the road.

If they went that route, it'd be interesting if they sold a season pass like thing that would allow you to unlock a limited number of discs per month to allow for a used game/rental market.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

This is GAF. We'll defend to the death the right of multi billion dollar corporations to take away basic consumer rights in the name of corporate profits!

I understand as I mentioned,,,, huge trade in- whore but I often buy new with my trades.


Instead of looking at it like there is no advantage for consumers, we need to look at it for what it really is.

We have been spoiled by getting someone's intellectual property for years in slightly discounted used games without paying the owner because there was no way to stop us. Now we should not be mad that they figured out a way to lock up their property to sell.

I really really hope if they do this that they realize a DD DRM game system would require lower prices and more discounted sales as I may not buy as much new as I do now if I can not subsidize with a trade

Game.set.match. heh

 

[Klocker]

So does that mean you won't be able to just buy the console and play games on it without ever connecting it to the internet?

How many people would that rule out?

when we hear their actual plan... It will all make sense and we will discover that they would not reduce the number of people that could buy and use the console.

Any chance that Kinect could be used to secure discs to a user?

As in, face the sensor to "unlock" the disc for play (one time only)? That way you can still go to friends houses to play the game once you face verify.

That way discs become "unusable" by anyone except for the original owner, unless they pay a fee to re-associate a new face with the disc, while still making allowances for sharing games/taking them on the road.

If they went that route, it'd be interesting if they sold a season pass like thing that would allow you to unlock a limited number of discs per month to allow for a used game/rental market.

that is pretty clever actually

 

[neptunes]

So does that mean you won't be able to just buy the console and play games on it without ever connecting it to the internet?

How many people would that rule out?

Subtract the number of unique 360s connected to the net(gold or silver) by the total number of them sold.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Another thing to note (not sure if it's been touched upon already) the required inclusion of an HDD by either next-gen system may hamstring future cost-reduction. That every PS3 needed an HDD until recently hindered it getting to a reasonable price and getting down to sub-$200 levels.

So does that mean you won't be able to just buy the console and play games on it without ever connecting it to the internet?

How many people would that rule out?

I'm not sure. Perhaps Microsoft is assuming that most of the people who are buying a console will have some form of internet - I don't think that's actually an unreasonable assumption. I don't think that even necessitates the console itself being networked; as presumably activation could be done from any networked smartphone, tablet, laptop or PC. It is all rumor, albeit from a source which has proven correct before.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Any chance that Kinect could be used to secure discs to a user?

As in, face the sensor to "unlock" the disc for play (one time only)? That way you can still go to friends houses to play the game once you face verify.

That way discs become "unusable" by anyone except for the original owner, unless they pay a fee to re-associate a new face with the disc, while still making allowances for sharing games/taking them on the road.

If they went that route, it'd be interesting if they sold a season pass like thing that would allow you to unlock a limited number of discs per month to allow for a used game/rental market.

That would wreak havoc on multiple members of the same family wanting to play a game. I can see Microsoft selling a family plan, $10 per family member.

Oh god, I hope shit crashes soon so we can get back to basics.

 

[DesertFox]

... so if they want to provide the same services as a cable box, and it'll be by making the box always online...

... how is it not always online?

.... You didn't read my post very clearly did you? I never said it wasn't going to be always online. I was giving an example of how always online isn't mutually exclusive with DRM - which everyone agrees is bad.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

So does that mean you won't be able to just buy the console and play games on it without ever connecting it to the internet?

How many people would that rule out?

No one said you can't make double check,especially online play means you may play with other players,not only pirates,they also need to check is their any cheaters.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

No one said you can't make double check,especially online play means you may play with other players,not only pirates,they also need to check is their any cheaters.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about?

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I have no idea what you are talking about?

I mean i think you can play the game offline,even you never connect your console to the internet,i don't think 720 itself can't do any verification when it's offline.
But when you online,the system will verification the console one more time,just like 360,and i think it's enough to ban pirates&cheaters.

The "always on,always connected" more like a new feature for the marketing,even it's not that new.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I mean i think you can play the game offline,even you never connect your console to the internet,i don't think 720 itself can't do any verification when it's offline.
But when you online,the system will verification the console one more time,just like 360,and i think it's enough to ban pirates&cheaters.

The "always on,always connected" more like a new feature for the marketing,even it's not that new.

Well, when I think about offline activation (as another poster mentioned above) I think about the Windows model. Even offline the system knows you haven't activated and it will nag you until you do. After 30 days, it stops working. I would imagine they wouldn't give you a 30 day window for games though, 10 days maybe.

You can activate Windows offline by calling Microsoft. With my copy of XP, after a few years I could no longer activate it online and I had call Microsoft each time. That was annoying but imagine having to do that with every game you buy?

Now that I mentioned it, I was so annoyed at having to call Microsoft to ask permission to use my OS that when I was ready to upgrade, I bought a new PC pre-installed with Windows 7 to avoid that and then upgraded that PC to my liking.

 

[Zeppelin]

Don't mind always online since I live in a first world country and having to install all games will most likely only lead to shorter load times. But I'll never hook up a fucking Kinect.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Well, when I think about offline activation (as another poster mentioned above) I think about the Windows model. Even offline the system knows you haven't activated and it will nag you until you do. After 30 days, it stops working. I would imagine they wouldn't give you a 30 day window for games though, 10 days maybe.

You can activate Windows offline by calling Microsoft. With my copy of XP, after a few years I could no longer activate it online and I had call Microsoft each time. That was annoying but imagine having to do that with every game you buy?

Now that I mentioned it, I was so annoyed at having to call Microsoft to ask permission to use my OS that when I was ready to upgrade, I bought a new PC pre-installed with Windows 7 to avoid that and then upgraded that PC to my liking.

Then why people still think require online to play games is possible?annoying for player,annoying for them,not good for marketing,not good for business.

They're greed but they're not stupid.
I bet most games will come with OS update(if the game need update to play,just like 360) btw.

 

[Piggus]

We have been spoiled by getting someone's intellectual property for years in slightly discounted used games without paying the owner because there was no way to stop us. Now we should not be mad that they figured out a way to lock up their property to sell.

We haven't been spoiled. A physical game is like any other product you buy. You own it, and you should have thr right to sell it. Do car makers throw a little hissy fit about the used car industry? A publisher does not necessarily deserve more money just because someone bought their game second-hand. That would be like Ford getting a cut of a used car sale. It's ridiculous and nothing more than anti-consumer greed from a company that already shows you ads for fucking McDonald's even after you've given them $60 to unlock functionality that's free on other platforms. I know that this hasn't been fully confirmed, but why anyone would support such an anti-consumer company is beyond me.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Then why people still think require online to play games is possible?annoying for player,annoying for them,not good for marketing,not good for business.

They're greed but they're not stupid.
I bet most games will come with OS update(if the game need update to play,just like 360) btw.

Well, I won't question that Microsoft is greedy but sometimes I think they are stupid. As much as I like Windows 8, they obviously didn't care about keeping their customers happy. In the same way, they may have the same attitude towards customers with the 720.

Remember how arrogant Sony was about the PS3. You can see that arrogance in Microsoft in regards to Windows 8 (it's not selling at $40 and they still jack the price up 500%). Will they have that arrogance with the 720, we'll see.

 

[nib95]

We haven't been spoiled. A physical game is like any other product you buy. You own it, and you should have thr right to sell it. Do car makers throw a little hissy fit about the used car industry? A publisher does not necessarily deserve more money just because someone bought their game second-hand. That would be like Ford getting a cut of a used car sale. It's ridiculous and nothing more than anti-consumer greed from a company that already shows you ads for fucking McDonald's even after you've given them $60 to unlock functionality that's free on other platforms. I know that this hasn't been fully confirmed, but why anyone would support such an anti-consumer company is beyond me.

Agreed. I laugh at those who actually defend the anti used game notion. Boo fucking hoo to the publishers. I'll stick to my consumer rights thank you very much. If I bought it, I should be able to sell it too. Like every other product that is a multi use item.

 

[Fuzzy]

Always on, Always connected
Kinect is required to be plugged in

Why does MS want to spy on people?

 

[beast786]

Agreed. I laugh at those who actually defend the anti used game notion. Boo fucking hoo to the publishers. I'll stick to my consumer rights thank you very much. If I bought it, I should be able to sell it too. Like every other product that is a multi use item.

isn't the whole argument is you actually don't own the software ? But license or something. not that I disagree with your point

 

[Klocker]

We haven't been spoiled. A physical game is like any other product you buy. You own it, and you should have thr right to sell it. Do car makers throw a little hissy fit about the used car industry? A publisher does not necessarily deserve more money just because someone bought their game second-hand. That would be like Ford getting a cut of a used car sale. It's ridiculous and nothing more than anti-consumer greed from a company that already shows you ads for fucking McDonald's even after you've given them $60 to unlock functionality that's free on other platforms. I know that this hasn't been fully confirmed, but why anyone would support such an anti-consumer company is beyond me.

You are forgetting that a used car degrades and has less value. A used game is good as new. In most cases due to reduced VALUE of a used car it does not cannibalize new car sales as people who buy a used car typically could or would not invest in new. Used games clearly cannibalize new especially since most used games for quite a time are only $5 less then new. You can often do better with new on sale these days. Oh and used cars sales is a model that works for their own dealers and keep them coming in for service sales so it is more complicated than that.

And if you think Sony won't do the same thing in the long run if possible you are mistaken. Or any other company that gets into this industry. As noted it's about what the publishers want and both Sony and MS work with the same publishers/devs.

oh and as mentioned I am a used game-trading whore! but I am switching to digital only, done with discs... so I guess I don't care anymore, if that's how it goes. I'm not defending anyone

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Well, I won't question that Microsoft is greedy but sometimes I think they are stupid. As much as I like Windows 8, they obviously didn't care about keeping their customers happy. In the same way, they may have the same attitude towards customers with the 720.

Remember how arrogant Sony was about the PS3. You can see that arrogance in Microsoft in regards to Windows 8 (it's not selling at $40 and they still jack the price up 500%). Will they have that arrogance with the 720, we'll see.

I'm not sure where you live but in my country Win8&7 launch price almost same(normal price,not any upgrade/OEM etc)

 

[Klocker]

isn't the whole argument is you actually don't own the software ? But license or something. not that I disagree with your point

yes

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

We haven't been spoiled. A physical game is like any other product you buy. You own it, and you should have thr right to sell it. Do car makers throw a little hissy fit about the used car industry? A publisher does not necessarily deserve more money just because someone bought their game second-hand. That would be like Ford getting a cut of a used car sale. It's ridiculous and nothing more than anti-consumer greed from a company that already shows you ads for fucking McDonald's even after you've given them $60 to unlock functionality that's free on other platforms. I know that this hasn't been fully confirmed, but why anyone would support such an anti-consumer company is beyond me.

technically, you don't own the game. You own the disk the game is on.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

isn't the whole argument is you actually don't own the software ? But license or something. not that I disagree with your point

That argument only becomes true once publishers/distributors control the product post-sale. For example, Steam still controls every game you bought from them and should they ever shut down, your games will likely become unavailable. On the other hand, look at your current gen games on disc, they are yours and will be for as long as you own the disc.

People talk about that license crap for game discs because they have already given up their consumer rights and want to convince you to do the same.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I'm not sure where you live but in my country Win8&7 launch price almost same(normal price,not any upgrade/OEM etc)

Oh sorry, let me explain.

Windows 8 launched at $40 for the upgrade to Win 8 Pro. That was a 3 month sale price and you could upgrade from XP, Vista or 7. At the end of the 3 months it was clear that Windows 8 wasn't selling very well but instead of leaving the price low, they jacked it up to $200 for Windows 8 Pro Upgrade.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Meh, I see no issue in essentially implementing a form of artificial depreciation on a digital product that otherwise is indistinct between new or used.

I don't think it should go so far as blocking the game as a whole; but with things like online passes. Meh.

 

[nib95]

isn't the whole argument is you actually don't own the software ? But license or something. not that I disagree with your point

I'm not sure about the intricacies of it, but this is another reason why I dislike many aspects of digital downloads and all the potentially anti consumer shit they can bring with it. The vast majority of the time I buy physical games, and I'll reserve my right to sell or give away what I've purchased. If a company or publisher takes that option away from me, they can kiss my sale goodbye.

Don't mind so much with music sales and download games as the costs are so cheap from the off set, and content so short or limited. Thankfully brilliant services like PSN Plus take the anti consumer edge off the digital side of things by offering brilliant value for money that works towards countering the negatives involved in the lack of re sale.

 

[synce]

I suppose the one thing MS can brag about is the 720 having much faster load times than PS4...assuming Sony doesn't suddenly go this route...but I have a feeling they will...Hey how's about that WiiU guys?

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Oh sorry, let me explain.

Windows 8 launched at $40 for the upgrade to Win 8 Pro. That was a 3 month sale price and you could upgrade from XP, Vista or 7. At the end of the 3 months it was clear that Windows 8 wasn't selling very well but instead of leaving the price low, they jacked it up to $200 for Windows 8 Pro Upgrade.

Not sure why this means arrogance,yeah it's expensive,but that just mean they think the sales is fine so decide to not delay the end day of $40 upgrade(they should already planned the end day since it's promotion)

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

You are forgetting that a used car degrades and has less value. A used game is good as new. In most cases due to reduced VALUE of a used car it does not cannibalize new car sales as people who buy a used car typically could or would not invest in new. Used games clearly cannibalize new especially since most used games for quite a time are only $5 less then new. You can often do better with new on sale these days. Oh and used cars sales is a model that works for their own dealers and keep them coming in for service sales so it is more complicated than that.

And if you think Sony won't do the same thing in the long run if possible you are mistaken. Or any other company that gets into this industry. As noted it's about what the publishers want and both Sony and MS work with the same publishers/devs.

oh and as mentioned I am a used game-trading whore! but I am switching to digital only, done with discs... so I guess I don't care anymore, if that's how it goes. I'm not defending anyone

You may as well be saying "Video games are different because cars have rubber tires and video games don't" because that would be just as relevant.

You see, the First Sale Doctrine doesn't make exceptions for your examples. Further, a used video game may not be in perfect condition. You could get a scratched disc, a ripped or missing manual or a damaged or marked up case or sleeve (this is important to collectors and no, collectors can't always buy new).

I think Sony is going to do exactly the same thing in the long run. They are likely designing it into the PS4 for publisher to use at their discretion. Naturally, if the next COD game blocks used games on the 720, the same publisher will block used games on the PS4.

Not sure why this means arrogance,yeah it's expensive,but that just mean they think the sales is fine so decide to not delay the end day of $40 upgrade(they should already planned the end day since it's promotion)

I just think of it like the famous Sony line about people getting two jobs to pay for the PS3. Either way, I don't want to argue about whether Microsoft is arrogant or not.

 

[Klocker]

Meh, I see no issue in essentially implementing a form of artificial depreciation on a digital product that otherwise is indistinct between new or used.

I don't think it should go so far as blocking the game as a whole; but with things like online passes. Meh.

yea in a perfect world, one of the ideas floated here about sharing and selling or limited but extended usage after first owner would be cool. I personally like the pay flat fee and play a certain number of games or even a digital rental system through the console.

 

[Klocker]

You may as well be saying "Video games are different because cars have rubber tires and video games don't" because that would be just as relevant.

You see, the First Sale Doctrine doesn't make exceptions for your examples. Further, a used video game may not be in perfect condition. You could get a scratched disc, a ripped or missing manual or a damaged or marked up case or sleeve (this is important to collectors and no, collectors can't always buy new).

I think Sony is going to do exactly the same thing in the long run. They are likely designing it into the PS4 for publisher to use at their discretion. Naturally, if the next COD game blocks used games on the 720, the same publisher will block used games on the PS4.

intellectual property is different than tires.

the next 20 years the courts will pretty much sew up any discrepancies we have and then we will know. Do you really think they would do it and not think they would win in court against class actions and or GameStop? Hey if the publishers or Sony/MS are wrong then they will be reversed simple as that.

Spoiler

IF they even do it :lol

I'm not an IP lawyer but maybe someone here who is can shed some light on actual case law.

 

[BlastProcessing]

You are forgetting that a used car degrades and has less value. A used game is good as new. In most cases due to reduced VALUE of a used car it does not cannibalize new car sales as people who buy a used car typically could or would not invest in new. Used games clearly cannibalize new especially since most used games for quite a time are only $5 less then new. You can often do better with new on sale these days. Oh and used cars sales is a model that works for their own dealers and keep them coming in for service sales so it is more complicated than that.

And if you think Sony won't do the same thing in the long run if possible you are mistaken. Or any other company that gets into this industry. As noted it's about what the publishers want and both Sony and MS work with the same publishers/devs.

oh and as mentioned I am a used game-trading whore! but I am switching to digital only, done with discs... so I guess I don't care anymore, if that's how it goes. I'm not defending anyone

I think a better metaphor might be used books. Which have been allowed to be sold on the secondary market since Gutenberg with no industry destroying effects.

If they can get around the legal ramifications, especially in Europe, then Sony and Microsoft are free to try knee-capping the secondary market. But I don't think it will work out for them. As powerful as these multinational corporations seem, they often have a hard time forcing consumers to change their behavior.

There are so many challenges that console will face going forward; wasting customer goodwill on this seems down right suicidal to me.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I just think of it like the famous Sony line about people getting two jobs to pay for the PS3. Either way, I don't want to argue about whether Microsoft is arrogant or not.

I think the difference is Windows division is pretty easy to earn money(right now at least),but not easy for IEB(especially Windows Phone also in IEB),so they will not that "stupid".

 

[Klocker]

I think a better metaphor might be used books. Which have been allowed to be sold on the secondary market since Gutenberg with no industry destroying effects.

If they can get around the legal ramifications, especially in Europe, then Sony and Microsoft are free to try knee-capping the secondary market. But I don't think it will work out for them. As powerful as these multinational corporations seem, they often have a hard time forcing consumers to change their behavior.

There are so many challenges that console will face going forward; wasting customer goodwill on this seems down right suicidal to me.

yes books is better.

Still a completely different dynamic but it addresses intellectual property.

it is the Digital IP where the challenges will come from and based on digital music cases it appears as if the courts favor the IP developer and the consumer has limited license.

and agree, not sure they will go down this road...maybe Next next gen?

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

intellectual property is different than tires.

the next 20 years the courts will pretty much sew up any discrepancies we have and then we will know. Do you really think they would do it and not think they would win in court against class actions and or GameStop? Hey if the publishers or Sony/MS are wrong then they will be reversed simple as that.

Spoiler

IF they even do it :lol

I'm not an IP lawyer but maybe someone here who is can shed some light on actual case law.

It's possible that in the next 20 years the corporations will buy off the courts but it's also possible that they won't despite their efforts. Of course, if gamers just roll over and abandon their consumer rights...

Yes, I do think they would try to do this. Maybe they believe that gamers won't fight them over it....just look at Steam. I assure that that Sony and Microsoft are.

 

[TryHardShounen]

I'm really hoping there is a feature that plays ads while my game is being installed...

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I sure hope the people saying always online is a bad thing don't own a smart phone or owned a wii and what not.

most smart products are always online....

actually wouldn't be surprised if the 360/ps3 have some form of always online as is.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I'm really hoping there is a feature that plays ads while my game is being installed...

LOL and to continue the fun...

...and also during loading screens. Oh and you know how TV stations always have their logo or some ad (sometimes animated) at the bottom corner of the screen? I want that too.

I am really hoping the ads are much louder than the game too, that way I can hear them when I go to the kitchen. Also, I hope the new dashboard is packed full of ads, the more animated the better.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I sure hope the people saying always online is a bad thing don't own a smart phone or owned a wii and what not.

most smart products are always online....

Except equating smart phone functionality to a home console is absurd.

 

[flippedb]

Going the WU/PC route. Wasn't really interested on Microsoft's offering, anyway.