but the speed limit is 60FPS & the Wii U is going around a 720P track with a lighter load.
VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
but the speed limit is 60FPS & the Wii U is going around a 720P track with a lighter load.
XtremeXpider
Member
You're comparing apples to pears. you cant compare two architectures counting (only) the flops.
Wii U: Triple core PowerPC based CPU (not modern)
Durango: 8 cores x86 based CPU (modern)
Wii U: 2GB (1GB for games) ram
Durango: 8GB (5GB for games) faster ram
Wii U: ~400GFlops DX10-like GPU
Durango 1.2TFlops DX11+ GPU
Wii U: CPU+GPU SoC
Durango: APU with GNC architecture.
How convenient you forgot the Over a Year head start again, we can sit here and argue all you want but you and I both know why the PS3 cost that much, did they make a mistake of course they did, they learn form their mistake? the PS4 is your answer. and you keep bringing up the Vita in a PS4 discussion I could bring up the Zune, Window 8, Surface, Windows Phone, Kin and all the other crap both company have failed in over the years.
But to sit there and look at the PS4 Specs and all the devs saying it's the opposite of the PS3 and say Sony haven't learned? that's just pure ignorance.
I apologize for getting off topic.
oldergamer
Member
Kinda noticed that you've been in this thread for a while being a nay sayer on pretty much every point people can speculate on, while constantly bridging with PS4 is more powerful over and over. We get it, you like PS4 more then what little you really know about 720.
BruiserBear
Banned
Richard Ledbetter of the Digital Foundry is making that "proclamation" based on the rumored specs. He has stated he sees no reasons to doubt those specs. This is a guy who makes a living discussing this stuff. I have no reason to doubt him.
Sorry DMA and 200MBs compression
Really. Ignoring everything else it does, please do tell me what rate of texture compression/decompression is good enough and why the one here is not?
What. That compression is LZ and not texture compression.
Tell me what else it does other then move data and compress it.
Thats right you can't because it doesnt do anything else.
Thats probably because lots of people are either being wildly unrealistic (dual APU's :/) or flat out wrong, do not shoot the messenger.
He's not arguing it's not good enough, he's arguing that they're basically standard features across Durango/PS4/PC video cards and thus don't make very good special sauce.
JPEG textures. It decodes JPEG which is a format textures are coded.
Look, the durango is clearly not as powerful as the ps4 but writing off any addition it has as a non-issue is just wrong and silly. Just as it would be wrong to write of the extra ACEs in the ps4 by saying that pc gpus also have ACEs.
They are not standard across pc/ps4/durango, certainly not in the configuration, capability and amount. BTW I never claim it to be a special sauce or whatever. These things are there to perform a certain function, that's all.
All video cards decode JPEG textures? it also doesn't decode them to DXTC which is a bummer. That would have been more useful. Sure its useful but its not as useful as everyone seems to think
Also the PS4 extra ACE's could probably be written partially after all they are coming to video cards just not GCN1 (they are a GCN1.1 feature).
BruiserBear
Banned
All of the above. Developers can use that extra power many different ways.
The Durango GPU has 12 compute units. The PS4 GPU has 18.
In car terms that's like saying one car has 200 horsepower and the other has 300. In the car world that's a pretty big difference.
XtremeXpider
Member
It is not. Is Wii U HSA? the GPU is GPGPU but I guess it is not HSA, not as Durango and PS4.
Is this a thread about PS4 vs Durango? why are you tending to "fight" both consoles? PS4 is more powerful than Durango, it is clear.
Baconsammy
Banned
I don't consider the year head start to matter. If time was a factor, Sony wouldnt have waited. Sony owned the prior two gens. They knew it, and they knew that waiting a year to release wouldnt hurt them. Whoops. You can bring up Zune, Kin, Windows phone all you want. Guess what they have in common? They got lumped in with the same division as Xbox and the division still made money. Sony can't say the same with the the PS brand anymore. You want to keep making excuses for the PS brands failures, but they all come back to one thing and one thing only: Sony. I'll start having faith in them again when they earn it.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
One thing aside from games, price, launch date etc that people seem to overlook with the 360's success is the money MSFT pumped into it - specifically the money pumped into marketing the machine.
There's no way Sony can compete with that, there's only a handful of companies that could even come close to MSFT's marketing budget.
All personal innuendo here but I remember a few years ago the Xbox receiving almost blanket advertising on the TV specifically and online. There weren't an ad break without the green X flashing up on the box.
All of their big titles receive a huge amount of advertising too, and all this doesn't come cheap of course, especially as there is a lot of peak-time coverage with these adverts.
Of course Sony is no slouch in marketing, but it just couldn't compete, and it's the same to this day. A lot of their exclusives don't get the marketing they deserve. What can you do if you ain't got the coin for it, hey.
All gpus can decode JPEG textures but they would have to run a shader instruction, which will consume some alu time, to decode them. On the durango, you don't have to as it has a fixed function hardware that will do that. And btw, a lot of texture data are stored as JPEG, which are then decoded and converted to whatever texture format a developer/engine/gpu supports
And so long as other gpus don't have it yet, you can't just write it off. Besides we are here to discuss the technical aspects and merits of these systems. If we are to start writing off everything they do then we might as well not discuss any of them as there are much more powerful GPUs out there.
Sure we could use the car terms but you also have to consider the drivers and the tracks you're driving on.
I know no machine is 100% efficient so what are the performance hit we can expect on these console? I'm just curious in how things will pan out in real world performance all specs look great for both on paper so far.
I think the way these two consoles are shaping up the next Xbox will be the weaker of the two. If you want the best non PC version of a multi platform game, get it on PS4. However, I don't expect the next Xbox will be trash. It'll be in the same ball park as the PS4. 3rd parties will still need the next Xbox sales to survive.
It depends where MS sets their focus. My gut feeling is next generation Kinect is more important to them than having a raw power advantage. But we should not completely disregard a "core" focus either. Hypothetically, if Destiny ends up looking better, running better, and have more options (if that DLC deal is bigger than we think), then I think this is enough to see people start to switch allegiances. We end up with a trickle down effect where other games start getting more sales on PS4 because people buy a PS4 to play Destiny.
It depends where MS sets their focus. My gut feeling is next generation Kinect is more important to them than having a raw power advantage. But we should not completely disregard a "core" focus either. Hypothetically, if Destiny ends up looking better, running better, and have more options (if that DLC deal is bigger than we think), then I think this is enough to see people start to switch allegiances. We end up with a trickle down effect where other games start getting more sales on PS4 because people buy a PS4 to play Destiny.
It's not his fault that people refuse to believe the leaks from the same people who ACCURATELY leaked the PS4 specs - information that was verified as correct by the sources of multiple high profile game websites. It's not his fault that people are ignoring the added cost of having Kinect 2.0 in every box, and how that impacts the budget for the rest of the system. And it's not his fault that people don't realize how the architecture of these systems work, and that changing the GPU is not the same as adding more RAM.
You don't have to prefer a system to have enough common sense to realize that the leaked specs are most likely true and will not change (certainly a lot more likely than a frickin' dual APU... wtf). People seem to have a really hard time accepting the probability that Microsoft's focus has changed a lot since the 360 came out.
specialguy
Banned
Once again, look at my last post. Better to look at proportions than raw numbers.
Again, by your logic a 21 million man army is more likely to defeat a 20m man army, than a 1 million man army is to defeat a single man army, because one has a difference of one million troops (lol) and the other only 999,999.
I'm not convinced the Wii U GPU is 352 Gflops, but even if it is, as my numbers showed, the Durango GPU is much closer to PS4 than Wii U is to Durango, and you can go on down the architecture, it gets worse for RAM etc.
Plus as pointed out the Durango GPU being more modern, having the exact same CPU as PS4 rather than a piddling CPU, etc.
specialguy
Banned
Do you know vgleaks, who you just called accurate, also said PS4 will ship with a dual camera system of some sort?
Funny how everybody ignores that...
I dont think the Kinect cost is anywhere near the GDDR5 cost difference in PS4. I saw Kinect on the shelf at Wal Mart the other day for $89. I bet the raw cost is like $20, maybeeee $40.
MS will have tons of room to undercut PS4 on price if the rumors are accurate. Whether and how soon they take advantage of it is another story. My guess is they will try to be greedy at first, and only price cut if it's clear the PS4's allegedly superior power forces them too to maintain sales.
Sure we could use the car terms but you also have to consider the drivers and the tracks you're driving on.
I know no machine is 100% efficient so what are the performance hit we can expect on these console? I'm just curious in how things will pan out in real world performance all specs look great for both on paper so far.
The drivers are the developers. If we're talking about third party devs, the analogy would be something like the Stig setting a lap time in a 200 hp car, and then setting a laptime in the same car but with 100 more hp. The architecture of the new systems is extremely similar, so any "efficiency" benefits of one is also present in the other. The PS4 GDDR5 may actually make it more efficient depending on how devs utilize it. A GPU in the 720 of similar performance to that of the PS4 would likely be bandwidth starved, if it isn't already to some degree.
How sure are you that there isn't hardware decoding/encoding of various texture formats in video cards, cause I'm pretty sure that there is.
For PS4 and Xbox3?
This was covered a few pages back, using metrics from identical PCs, only one has a Cape Verde GPU (very similar in specs to the Durango, rated at ~1.2TF) and the other a Pitcairn (very similar to the PS4, again rated a similar ~1.8TF).
The Pitcairn saw a minimum of 30% boost in frame rate in actual games, but this boost went as high as 100% increase. So the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Another way to look at it was the Pitcairn could handle Ultra settings and manage 30fps, where as the Cape Verde would have to scale back / turn off effects (AA, resolution and the like) to hit 30fps.
I agree with this. While Sony didn't put the focus on the camera, my spider senses are telling me it will be included in every box. E3 will be the mainstream blowout for the PS4. My entertainment center weeps. I'm not going to be happy if I have to switch cameras out every time I want to boot up a different system.
If one of them decides not to include the camera they could undercut the other on price.
Edit: I re-read this post and it sounds like I know something. I have no idea, only using the expression of spider senses. Just piecing it together based on the information we know.
Yes I'm aware of what vgleaks said about the camera. I'm also aware that sony announced a new, dual camera PS EYE at their event. I'm guessing you missed that part... Regardless, a detail like that (whether or not it will ship with the system) is something that can be decided right up to the very last minute. A change to the architecture or a major CPU or GPU change or switch in memory type is NOT something that can be changed at the last minute. Hence why pretty much everything from the documents that could not be changed this late in the game were accurate. Why would it be any different with the 720?
You're also overestimating the cost of that much GDDR5. The module sizes changed at the last minute, so it's not like Sony even has to add more chips. They're probably just using higher density chips. Do you really think that would cost as much as a brand new Kinect sensor? A device that was originally $150 when it came out?
XtremeXpider
Member
The camera in PS4 will depend on the Sony plans for the camera uses.
Why Sony show the camera in the last PS4 event?
Why Sony show the camera in the last PS4 event?
The next Xbox is the base line. If the PS4 has more power, developers will use it. If anything, using a consoles extra power will be more easy this generation than in any other past generation due to similar architectures. There will be no wacky porting and optimization to be done. I'm simplifying things, but developers can basically optimize one version of a game, unlike the past. Look at the PC, PS3, and 360:
PC - X86
360 - Power PC
PS3 - Cell
While the 360 and PC are close, they aren't alike. The upcoming generation goes like this:
PC - X86
Next Xbox - X86
PS4 - X86
Lots of development headaches in optimizing between platforms should go away and games should be more optimized than ever.
Gemüsepizza;49360302 said:
Since there are millions of core gamers that do like MS first party then there will be millions of friends that want to also buy a 720. Also, if the specs are true then the 720 will be cheaper than PS4 and that will be the biggest factor for many next gen buyers.
Actually, if you are using Destiny as an example then what you are going to see is a game that strengthens the mass of the MS core base heading to the Nextbox.
More gamers will probably end up initially buying Destiny on the Xbox 360 than any of the next gen systems. As we see, the game will supposedly take you character through a 10 year game. If this is true there is no DLC in the world that's going to sway the masses who have invested hours on their character to not only leave Xbox Live, but to start their Destiny character all over.
People keep forgetting why MS is as successful as they are right this very moment.
Again, no matter how many people on GAF argue the details of rumored stats, if MS makes the case for an improved Xbox Live + compelling content, amazing looking games whether first party or third, an improved Kinect, and functionality that matters, that core 360 install base isnt going anywhere.
I also say if MS somehow comes out of the box with Backwards capability at least for the top 20 games that are staples on Xbox Live then it's checkmate, the Next box will then enjoy a siginificant amount of success even beyond launch.
The last BOM numbers we have for 4GB extra GDDR5 and for Kinect both peg them at around $50, and Sony's decision to add it in was driven by the raw materials involved suddenly halving--that is, the inputs necessary to make 8GB now are the same as were necessary for 4GB a few months ago.
That still leaves PSEye, but the cameras in that are far cheaper than Kinect's and it seems to lack a lot of the processing support. These decisions make it worse at tracking people in a 3D space and seem to be a bet that devs will go for the "good enough" solution, just like few Wii titles took advantage of Motion+.
GPU pricing seems to be somewhat of a wash, as 32MB ESRAM is apparently about the same size as 6 extra CUs.
You're basically saying "I think MS will win because I think MS will win" here. And that some progression won't be stored serverside like other consoles have done and like EA and Activision have both made noise about doing for other titles already.
XtremeXpider
Member
How do you know that?
This is going to be a very interesting generation.
from the article:
"There's just one problem. Cramming 8GB of the fastest memory into a console box simply isn't logistically possible"
isn't that what ps4 is doing now?
By the way where does it say that Durango has an APU?
At time of writing, or from what was known in public at the time it probably was, but the high density GDDR5 became available for mass production and Sony took advantage of that.
There was an improvement in GDDR5 densities that wasn't commonly publicized. Sony jumped on the opportunity.
Gemüsepizza
Member
You don't need extensive processing power to track 2 glowing balls.
Unlike some soccer moms, most gamers won't care about a price difference of $50 or even $100. Especially early adoptors.
Vgleaks specs the new PSEye as two standard 720p webcams duct-taped together. The Kinect 1.0 uses a higher-resolution visual camera than this plus a complex and exotic infrared depth-sensing apparatus, and presumably the 2.0 is going to be an upgrade over that.
XtremeXpider
Member
You are right, it is not an APU, it is a SoC, but it is HSA as PS4 SoC. And the jaguar supports SSE4.2 and AVX, what about the floating point performance of Wii U CPU?