They both have it but not in the way you think.
VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
They both have it but not in the way you think.
MS can adjust their strategy, but first-party takes years to pay off, buying western exclusives is a lose/lose game of series no one cares about or completely unjustifiable expenses, and power is locked down now.
It's the same conundrum that gave the PS3 so much trouble: what made 360 games the better port even with PS3's superior paper specs? PC devs leveraging their experience. What makes PS4's added power at all useful? PC devs leveraging their assets. What sells consoles? Netplay and buzz. What decides netplay versions? Who has the better port.
MS can and probably will do a lot to make PC/720 development even easier. On the other hand, the Linux ecosystem Valve will be pushing could have similar benefits for PS4.
What?
The PS4 is as much HSA as the next Xbox. AMD are almost there with their APUs (which the PS4 definitely has, and the Xbox is rumoured to have). Their current APUs have some HSA features, but aren't true HSA (as defined by the HSA Foundation, of which AMD are part of).
True HSA will only be realised by AMD when them implement GPU context switching. AMD are targeting 2014.
LukasTaves
Member
Which can come out as very handy when decompressing data from the blu ray disk / hdd, shortening loading times without dedicating resources of the cpu for the task.
LukasTaves
Member
Actually the depth camera is 4 times that resolution (1280x960), but that is just an IR image, the algorithm used to convert that to depth reduces the output to 640*480 (and in the case of 360, the depth data gets a further reduction to 320*240 due usb 2.0 not being up to the task of the entire data streams at full resolution).
The vga camera is quite HD too, but i don't remember the exact resolution.
A 32mb memory pool with latency that can almost match an L2 cache sounds eerily useful for implementing something as context switching
Indeed, but its a common block in consoles, so its nothing really special useful still.
Also 200MB/s is a bit slow for it :/ but i guess we will see.
statham
Member
good info, your a programmer right?
Yeah but ill make it clear I dont make games, i mess in graphics a little but no professional game dev.
statham
Member
LukasTaves
Member
Is it really that common? AFAIK both PS3 and 360 dedicated non trivial amount of cpu processing cycles to compressing decompressing data.
I also found a research paper about LZ compression using the cell processor, and 200MB/s is not bad at all comparatively to what is shown here, specially keeping in mind it's done on a dedicated hardware that frees the cpu of that task: http://research.ihost.com/waha2009/finalPapers/Beltran waha paper 02.pdf
As I said its useful, but 200mb/s is still a very small amount of the total bandwidth, and when i said common i meant for next gen as both of the consoles have the block, (if not the same block even).
IMO it would be more useful if it was faster and not attached to one of the DMA units.
There isn't, at least nothing like the JPEG decoder. And I am sure of that.
Stop trivializing it. The 200mb/s you keep quoting is the fastest jpeg decode available, and it is balanced to provide it without consuming all the bandwidth. The last console to have one was the ps2 and it was arond 50% slower and was unnecessarily fast as running it at full speed would consume more bandwidth than is available. Attaching it to the DMEs is not some mistake. And no, the ps4 does not have the jpeg decode. It only has the zlib decoder which is similar to the LZ encoder/decoder.
shinra-bansho
Member
Various TechFest stuff was posted on Microsoft Research's youtube page. Probably none of it that relevant to Durango, but still perhaps interesting nonetheless.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MicrosoftResearch
http://www.youtube.com/user/MicrosoftResearch
For Sony it's usually planning ahead it seems.
The Kinect stuff probably will be.
Actually the fastest jpeg decode is 4 1080p images / frame max
It could be a lot better it was clearly made to help alleviate bandwidth issues
I wonder how many different things the sauce has been now?
Esram, ColorBlock, DME, Audio Chip, Jpeg decoder etc.
You know you're scratching the bottom of the barrel when you start touting lossy compression decoders
Wow. Whoever said anything about any secret sauce? I am simply discussing what is available in the system, simple as that. It is another fixed function hardware, some of which are in both systems, designed to eliminate the cpu/gpu resource that would have been spent doing them. The more of them they have the better.
Yes, not to forget if Sony doubled their RAM, Microsoft can double their geebees, change memory to God Damn Durango Ram 5! Beef up their GPU, CPU, fit BC chips, heck fit dual APUs in there ..
Anything will do!
I'm surprised that modern desktop GPUs don't have this since it must take up such a large amount of resources
And this decodes two 2 1080p images at 373mb/s. You do not want to starve other components of bandwidth, so it was the fastest they could implement with regards to there setup.
JPEG decoding is usually handled by the cpu, but give that its a compute job it can also be handled by a gpu by throwing alus at it. That is putting it in simple terms.
They do in amd apu I believe.
Deuterium
Member
I don't know about you guys, but I think this Kinect 2 demo (it must be Kinect 2, right?) is pretty amazing. I am not convinced it has a place in action/FPS games...but the technology is scary cool. This truly is Minority Report -- and this is even without wearing special gloves (which they did in the movie)!!
Edit: For those who aren't interested in Kinect (like me), this demo is showing the new features of Kinect 2 (I presume) in distinguishing hand states (open versus closed). With this leap in gesture resolution, there are some amazing possibilities, which are hinted at in this short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWMaY0WO7c&feature=player_embedded#!
Edit: For those who aren't interested in Kinect (like me), this demo is showing the new features of Kinect 2 (I presume) in distinguishing hand states (open versus closed). With this leap in gesture resolution, there are some amazing possibilities, which are hinted at in this short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWMaY0WO7c&feature=player_embedded#!
what are they using jpeg for... kinect?
Textures, which you undoubtedly would know if you have been following the conversation, or just read a few post in this page, that is assuming you actally care about what is been said.
This is what the OG Kinect should have been.
Deuterium
Member
Well, better late than never, I suppose.
Anyways, color me impressed (very) by this demo. I am beginning to understand the possibilities with this technology...and when I think more about it, I can see it being utilized to good effect, in a hard "core" game.
lastflowers
Banned
Kinect 1
DXTCn is far far better for textures then JPEG, a shame that it wont decode into it.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I asked about this a long time ago. Its never been specifically stated that Durango is using a SoC or APU set up like PS4. All the leaks specifically mentioned this with regards to PS4. A lot of people have just assumed it would use one. These diagrams say otherwise. I guess we wont wont know for sure tell an official release.
So this goes back to the dual APU rumor. How could there be two APU's if there isn't one in the first place? LOL. Guy was such a fraud, but I think most of us knew that already.
Deuterium
Member
Huh?????????????????
Did you watch more than the first 10 seconds??
The presenter showed how the original Kinect (Kinect 1) could only recognize a hand as a single point on the skeleton. He then demonstrates what I believe is Kinect 2. You didn't watch the video.
LukasTaves
Member
It's really fast, for something faster than that you are probably looking at decompression hardware that's a few thousands dollars by themselves. Also, 200mb/s is an order of a magnitude faster than direct access of the rumored 6x blu ray drive, so yeah, that should be a nice improvement. The DMEs can also gather data directly from other devices like kinect, which is also another area area loss less compression can come as very handy. Network transfers should be a nice candidate too, specially with all the streaming/uploading these consoles are going to have.
And it's not attached to a DMA unit, it's attached to a DME unit, the DME also has a dma and untile hardware, but they are blocks with dedicated logic, that can perform operations completely in parallel to the cpu.
Have you see this patent? http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7089391.html
I'm still not sure that this is indeed the same DMEs durango has, but if they are, they are quite a lot more than a simple renamed DMA
LukasTaves
Member
That whole video is using kinect 1
Ms added hand states to the windows SDK, but the 360 sdk had them fow a while.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
I noticed Arthur stopped posting in these threads since the PS4 was revealed.
His secret sauce constantly shifted.
Doubt he even believes his own BS anymore. Was he really the only "insider" that tried to claim Durango was more powerful? Is that where this entire discussion stems from?
His secret sauce constantly shifted.
Doubt he even believes his own BS anymore. Was he really the only "insider" that tried to claim Durango was more powerful? Is that where this entire discussion stems from?
Im saying its not fast enough to make a decent impact on the bandwidth, not that its not fast for what it does. DME is _DMA_ when will people understand this? just because it can tile/untile (hi GCN DMA blocks) doesn't make it special
Deuterium
Member
That whole video is using kinect 1
Ms added hand states to the windows SDK, but the 360 sdk had them fow a while.
Well shit. If they are accomplishing that with the original Kinect sensor, I can't wait to see what they are going to be able to do with the improved Kinect 2 sensor and it's dedicated hardware implementation in the NextBox.
Or he's simply in the dark like the rest of us.
The last piece of info he was holding to before the Vgleaks blowout was that old Durango conference PDF.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
He probably clung to that "100% efficient" GPU line in his reasoning
Which now, funny enough, is also the same for PS4's GPU
i have been trying to follow it, looked for past 3 pages... so jpeg... 373 MBs?
Modern GPUs dont have texture compression support?
Please bear with me, I am trying to learn.
Should have been? It is OG kinect. Hand tracking was one of the things that actually worked as long as your movements weren't (too) fast or frantic
LukasTaves
Member
They are not special because then can tile/untile. Look at the patent, if they describe the same DMEs that durango has they are more than just regulars dma (they do have dma funcionality, but it's not only that).
Deuterium
Member
Can the original Kinect distinguish between an open hand, and a closed fist?
I have read some of the patent and everything I have a come across so far has been DMA + Compression, there was nothing other then regular DMA + Compression mentioned by vgleaks so why expect something else?.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
I wonder the same.
MaulerX
Member
What's even more impressive is that they're using a regular Kinect for Windows in that demo.
Another cool recent demo is 3D object scanning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJ-j3S-fSE
Now imagine putting exact 3D replicas of yourself into games etc...