Unless we see actual products it is sort of pointless to speculate since it will only lead to more bickering. Suffice it to say that XB3 would be the baseline and PS4 may get additional fluff. Given both XB3 and PS4 are not as complicated to program for as PS3 or have fractured/split memory pool, the XB3 version will perhaps never suffer any of the problems PS3 suffered with some multiplat games compared to 360.
VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
Unless we see actual products it is sort of pointless to speculate since it will only lead to more bickering. Suffice it to say that XB3 would be the baseline and PS4 may get additional fluff. Given both XB3 and PS4 are not as complicated to program for as PS3 or have fractured/split memory pool, the XB3 version will perhaps never suffer any of the problems PS3 suffered with some multiplat games compared to 360.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Can you post what the specs are you think are set in stone, just post them. There is some confusion going on between posters.
Dat Xtra 32MB empirically proves his point mang.
A lot the GPU isn't just a GPU it's a GPGPU so visual effects that use compute can be added with the extra 600GFLOPS how about games on Xbox 3 without the same Physics & things like TressFX that people will notice.
RSX had bigger numbers but was a far less efficient design. From its basic architecture (separate vertex and pixel shaders vs Xenos much more efficient unified shaders) to its memory subsystem. In this case we're dealing with two very similar GPU designs. The memory design is still different, but this time PS4 makes up for that with a bit more of a sheer bandwidth advantage than before (though not to the degree a lot of people here think).
I can see it now
back of ps4 box ''real next gen hair physics exclusive to PS4''
if devs do it, and durango specs are what they seem consider me sold on a PS4
It wouldn't have longer load times. There are no rumours of slower BD or HDD read speeds as far as I know. Both systems have 8GB of RAM and the same CPU.
The gap would be about the same as we see in the 360 version of Crysis 3 over the lower res PS3 version. Something like a ~30% higher resolution/performance or otherwise better image quality in multiplatform titles if the rumours are true. Smaller than the PS2/Xbox gap. The Xbox was like 6 times faster than the PS2 right? I know it had twice as much RAM.
Gemüsepizza
Member
The differences between the Xbox 360 and PS3 version of Crysis 3 are imo the result of poor optimization, because both consoles are very similar power-wise. You would at least have this kind of difference by default with the PS4 and X3 - and that's when both versions are properly optimized. Now imagine how big the gap will be when the X3 version is not properly optimized.
I think we all should be look out for physics, collision detection, animation, mitigation in LoD pop-ins and other big and small factors that add to immersion to improve. While it may be unreasonable to expect all these things right out of the gate, like the current gen, those ancillary factors would have to increase to commensurate with the upgraded visuals much to truly bring us to next generation.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Your example there of Crysis 3 is a poor one.
The PS360 versions are nigh on identical unless you have a keen eye or can capture stills of the game, blow them up on a screen and zoom in on certain textures on PS3 that are slightly lower quality. The 360 version also has more tearing.
I would bet the difference this time would be a lot bigger. All common sense would suggest that.
We really are in Phase 2...
shinra-bansho
Member
Durango has more RAM now?
I thought the resultant outcome of Durango's RAM set-up was essentially a 32MB pool within the 8GB, capable of bandwidth of 170GB/s.
Are there actually instances where a multiplatform developer is going to want to use the 8GB@68GB/s and 32MB@102GB/s separately for a cumulative total of 8224MB; when they'll have 8GB@176GB/s on the PS4?*
*Ignoring any OS overhead for either.
I thought the resultant outcome of Durango's RAM set-up was essentially a 32MB pool within the 8GB, capable of bandwidth of 170GB/s.
Are there actually instances where a multiplatform developer is going to want to use the 8GB@68GB/s and 32MB@102GB/s separately for a cumulative total of 8224MB; when they'll have 8GB@176GB/s on the PS4?*
*Ignoring any OS overhead for either.
You can't just add those two memory pools together to make the number closer to the PS4 number. It doesn't work that way.
Exactly, for one to even move data to the eSRAM requires you to use the DDR3 taking bandwidth away from whatever else was using it in the first place (although it probably won't eat up a great deal of bandwidth) and even then the eSRAM is only 32MB, anything outside of the 32MB in your eSRAM is limited to a max of 68GB/s - CPU bandwidth - Move Engine Stuff.
Brad Grenz
Member
No. As I mentioned before, basically anything stored in the ESRAM is a copy of something from main memory (IE: textures, geometry), or something that has to be copied to main memory to be used (IE: the frame-buffer).
I hope CanCrusher posts that (Durango having more memory) in more threads.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
This common misconception that 68Gbs + 102Gbs somehow equals 170Gbs bandwidth overall may be some of the dumbest shit I've read on GAF since "angular graphics" and "25fps = cinematic".
shinra-bansho
Member
Yes, I get that part (I think) - I think Rolf_NB outlined it above. It will take bandwidth to first move data into ESRAM; in order to later access the same data simultaneously from both main RAM and ESRAM?
But I don't see how anyone could spin it as a quantity advantage?
As long as you agree that 23.976fps = cinematic.
Angelus Errare
Banned
You're crazy man, low FPS is totally cinematic, I wish NG2 ran at the staircase framerate the entire game!
so you mean that assassins creed 3 running at 20-25 fps on console makes them the better version compared to pc version running at 60fps because the console version is more"cinematic"?
the things you learn.
googleplex
Member
Truth.
This post should be at the top of every page in this thread from this point own. I
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
lol at durango having more ram. Let's say for argument's sake that it has a unified pool with the 32 mb of ram. I highly doubt sony will use the same ram reservation for the OS so as far as I'm concerned, Durango has less ram that is also slower...
Tears For Fears
Banned
GAF is going to shit itself when both consoles produce the same graphics.The specs and rumored specs on both, is plain disappointing(8gb gddr5 is nice, but the rest isn't). How anyone can argue about which one is better, is beyond me. Console warriors are out in full force.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
32MB out of 8GB is in the noise.
Actually it pretty much does in most cases, as with the 360s eDRAM and that worked out well enough. If you're using all of that sram bandwidth, you'll probably be using the equivalent on the PS4 the achieve the same results. Thats why it's a viable solution. Other bandwidth requirements are predictable and relatively small.
ChosenPredator
Banned
they will somehow blow up every picture and look at every crevice, examine the most miniscule pixel and write 150 pages on why one is better then the other...Thankfully I can't see anything those people see because gaming must suck if you just noticed every small graphical detail, lol.
Now when you say "produce the same graphics" I assume you're talking about multiplatform games correct? The ones that go for parity and cater to the bottom line, correct?
First party titles are where I'll be judging the strength and graphic fidelity of the given console because they're the ones that will be optimizing the most and try to squeeze every ounce of juice from the specific console they develop for.
Well it really depends, sure it works out fine when everything fits in the eSRAM. But if you start hitting 2-4xMSAA at 1080P. then you can only suddenly fit 2/1 1920x1080P 4 bytes per pixel buffer in the eSRAM and a lot of swapping is going to occur.
Brad Grenz
Member
Obviously it works to a certain extent, but the overhead involved in copying data between the two pools makes the Durango's memory performance significantly worse compared to the PS4's than is evident by simply comparing aggregate bandwidth totals. So PS4 is faster in absolute terms, and doesn't suffer any "waste" bandwidth involved in actually using a second pool of embedded memory. This extends the advantage even further in practice.
In addition, a truly unified memory architecture is more flexible in that to make the most of the ESRAM bandwidth the Durango basically has to use it completely for the framebuffer. If it's being used for that you can't press any potential latency advantage the ESRAM might provide for GPU compute. If you do want the low latency advantage you have to do almost everything out of the slow DDR3 memory, including the costly framebuffer writes.
It's a similar percentage difference to that suggested by the PS4 specs and Durango rumours. About a third if you consider frame rate and resolution. Think GTA4 also. The FF13 360 port was a still bigger percentage difference the other way.
It woud be noticeable, but probaby not a concern for most as far as multiplatform titles go, given that the systems are otherwise very similar.
Dat avatar.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Whatif you require more than 32mb at a time?
shinra-bansho
Member
The thing is, both of the HD twins had strengths and weaknesses and their architectures were markedly different. They ended up something of a wash. Developers would have to make compromises accordingly; and as a generality the lead platform SKU would be the better one.
If the rumors are true, essentially everything about the PS4 is better spec-wise and their architectures are pretty similar so far as can be told. If a developer uses Durango as a lead SKU, it would be to be a triviality to get better performance, image quality etc. from the PS4 SKU. Conversely, if a developer uses the PS4 as the lead, it would presumably compromises across the board in the Durango SKU.
I imagine it won't be a major problem, at least initially, as developers will create their multiplatform games with (if the rumors are true) the Durango's lower specs in mind. Although, I wonder if it will become more of a barrier as the next generation progresses.
Can Crusher
Banned
It's incredibly annoying that so many insecure posters are taking what I said and interpreting that somehow I'm saying Durango has some sort of advantage. Oh noes what have I done, it snowballed like stupid.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49564704&postcount=2812
That's it in a nutshell. Robo was saying that level design could be compromised because of Ram amount, and I told them you see that such scenario right now didn't make sense because not only does Durango have the same 8 GB of main memory, but it also has an additional 32 MB of Esram, so I didn't see how Durango would have less RAM and thus make an impact in level design restrictions in multiplatform games. To me it seems common sense would dictate that level design isn't the issue, but graphics where I've said that there should be a pretty big gap between them. I also said I wasn't taking OS reserve into account because we have to wait and see for that.
So I took a pretty rational no bs approach, but apparently unless I'm here saying Durango is a tetris machine, even though I've repeatedly said MS has dropped the ball and the PS4 is where its at spec wise, I'm a sinner.
It's a bit of a sad state of affairs, it's way too personal in here unfortunately, rational discussion has seen an incredible decline and paved way for boys and their sticks, playing war games.
I was just talking about Ram vs Level design. Nobody seems to care about that though. (Aside from Robo himself lol)
Brad Grenz
Member
Whether you are willing to personally accept the widely reported disparity in available RAM to games is immaterial to the discussion the rest of us are having. We've accepted it as probable and are exploring the ramifications. If you want to play epistemic games may I refer you to an intro to philosophy class? You'll be alarmed how little we know we know.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Thanks for the irrational rant, I was just wondering why you said what you did. They have the same amount of system RAM (ignoring what is dedicated to non-gaming), the eSRAM is not more ram, it is a cache for particular uses. No one is adding the other component L1/L2/L3 caches to the system RAM so what you said was strange. The amount dedicated for non-gaming is going to be orders of magnitude larger than 32MB.
Yeah, I knew what you meant. I also just wanted to clarify my statement with that I think it's an unlikely/late gen scenario if it's something like 5gb RAM in Durango and 7.5gb in PS4. I do not think the difference will be that large. I was just responding to the people saying PS4 versions will be gimped because of the least common denominator thing and I was giving the only example I could think of where it would be an issue. Visually it'll be east to add a bit of AA and some higher quality effects on the PS4 version since the architectures are so similar.
If we trust the Guerilla leak, hasn't it been 512MB since the system RAM was 2GB?
If it does expand, a number in between 512MB and 1GB makes more sense to me. 64-128MB of the current rumor is probably devoted to video recording, and that wouldn't need to be increased.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
no it doesn't, the memexport function can act directly on memory blocks to combine it with other tasks.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Even the rumor is true,it won't be PS2-Xbox level gap,maybe GC-Xbox level
Maybe because you just said something non-negative about Durango,you know,about 90% thread in here is bashing MS/Xbox now
Also Unreal Engine 4 Elemental demo is said to be doing most of it's rendering in Compute so that 600GFLOPS of extra compute power is going to come in handy in some UE4 games.
Epic Reveals Stunning Elemental Demo, & Tim Sweeney On Unreal Engine 4
also thanks to the success of Minecraft you can bet there will be lots of games using Voxels
Atomontage Engine - Voxelized Geometry
so software based rendering might be a big thing Next Gen.
phosphor112
Banned
That atomotage youtube link isn't working. =[
fixed it
Devs aren't going to do something like this unless they've been paid off by Sony to do so. It's not worth the effort to implement two different forms of technology that require different models, etc. For things like TressFX at least it's more likely you'll see it implemented across both platforms or not implemented at all.
memexport?, what is this, the 360?.
Gemüsepizza
Member
And how do you explain TressFX then? It's exclusive to one platform (an open platform even) and also usable with nvidia graphic cards. And with nextgen, they could make such an effect usable on two platforms, PS4 and PC. If there is power, devs will use it to sell more games.
phosphor112
Banned
Interesting. It needs smoothing and also high levels of LOD's. Zooming in and seeing "jaggies" on models that aren't rendering artifacts is just bad. Also, it's all completely stiff. Everything looked great from far away, but what about the foliage? In the future maybe, but not now.
Gemüsepizza;49615542 said:
TressFX was heavily promoted by (and co-developed by) AMD, who have a DirectCompute advantage over Nvidia. Considering the rest of Tomb Raider on the PC seems like it barely looks better than the console editions I think it's fairly unlikely Crystal Dynamics would've implemented it without AMD's support.
NemesisPrime
Banned
Gemüsepizza;49615542 said:
No they won't.
Basically if the Durango sells more than the PS4 (or the other way around) expect that version to get the most attention. Nobody is going to bother with the lesser selling console to add in extra fluff.