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[Gemüsepizza]

What more features?You know PS4 OS already have a lot of features,even streaming games.

I don't know. But Microsoft must be doing something with those 2.5-3GB RAM allegedly reserved for the OS.

No, Sony won't want to have the same problems next gen again. They hadn't enough RAM for the system this gen so they should reserve more to implement new features later.
1GB is minimum, 1.5-2GB would be better.

512MB probably wasn't enough and was also one of the reasons why they increased the RAM, else they'd have had only 2.5-3GB for games.

Later they still can give more RAM to devs again, when they think there won't be any new important features in the future they would have to add.

You know that the Xbox 360 OS reserves 32 MB while the PS3 OS reserves 50 MB? The problems of the PS3 are the split RAM configuration and too much reserved RAM. Not less reserved RAM...

Can't wait for the forum meltdown when Sony announces the network requirements for PS4's features.

How mature. About which features are you even talking?

 

[onQ123]

Can't see that happen
Or what features you talking about?


Unless it have own chip,if not it still means Kinect2 will use 720 gaming resources,even this time they already put resources to Kinect2 from the start

Global Unichip lands sensor chip orders for Microsoft Xbox 720, says paper
EDN, March 7; Steve Shen, DIGITIMES [Thursday 7 March 2013]
IC design service company Global Unichip reportedly has entered, for the first time, the supply chain of Microsoft and will design and ship its ASIC solutions for the Kinect sensors of Microsoft's Xbox 720 gaming machines, according to a Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN) report.

Global Unichip has begun trial production of ASIC chips at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) with volume production to begin in the second half of 2013, EDN said.

Meanwhile, Global Unipchip has announced consolidated revenues of NT$312 million (US$10.52 million) for February, down 22% sequentially and 44% on year. For the first two months of 2013, revenues amounted to NT$714 million, decreasing 29% from a year earlier.


But I'm not sure if this is a chip for inside of the Kinect 2 or if it will be inside of the Xbox 3

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I don't know. But Microsoft must something do with those 2.5-3GB RAM allegedly reserved for the OS.

They're not like nintendo need half of RAM to the OS,if PS4 OS can deal with 512MB,i can't see MS can't deal with ~1.5GB.

Global Unichip lands sensor chip orders for Microsoft Xbox 720, says paper
EDN, March 7; Steve Shen, DIGITIMES [Thursday 7 March 2013]
IC design service company Global Unichip reportedly has entered, for the first time, the supply chain of Microsoft and will design and ship its ASIC solutions for the Kinect sensors of Microsoft's Xbox 720 gaming machines, according to a Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN) report.

Global Unichip has begun trial production of ASIC chips at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) with volume production to begin in the second half of 2013, EDN said.

Meanwhile, Global Unipchip has announced consolidated revenues of NT$312 million (US$10.52 million) for February, down 22% sequentially and 44% on year. For the first two months of 2013, revenues amounted to NT$714 million, decreasing 29% from a year earlier.


But I'm not sure if this is a chip for inside of the Kinect 2 or if it will be inside of the Xbox 3

It's fine even it will be inside of the Xbox 3-if it's not main CPU

 

[Gemüsepizza]

They're not like nintendo need half of RAM to the OS,if PS4 OS can deal with 512MB,i can't see MS can't deal with ~1.5GB.

So you know what features the Xbox 3 will have? Oh no, you don't. The only information we have are several rumors which indicate that the Xbox 3 has 2.5-3 GB reserved for the OS. I don't see any connection to the RAM amount of the PS4, the Xbox 3 could have totally different features. So your argumentation, that Microsoft will have 1.5 GB reserved because the PS4 probably has 512 MB reserved makes no sense.

 

[Toxa]

How mature. About which features are you even talking?

just another troll ...

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

What more features?You know PS4 OS already have a lot of features,even streaming games.



And?Btw that's old

People are not just coming to this 3GB memory reserved conclusion on their own.

Eurogamer said 'two sources we spoke two suggest 3GB memory reserved for the OS'. They are a very reliable source.

 

[Codeblew]

So if I am playing a non Kinect game those 2 cores will be doing nothing?

The connect sensors will be watching your every move and reporting data back to Redmond. Microsoft will know everything about you, including what your favorite time to masterbate is.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

just another troll ...

He may indeed be right. The language used by Sony suggests they have features they don't want to talk about yet as it would result in negative press/feedback.

 

[DragonNC]

how can you believe that xbox 3 will use 2.5 GB of ram whn win 7 is using 1.5GB ram on PC
.....PURE BULLSHIT.

 

[Brad Grenz]

People are not just coming to this 3GB memory reserved conclusion on their own.

Eurogamer said 'two sources we spoke two suggest 3GB memory reserved for the OS'. They are a very reliable source.

Yup. Basically everyone with a source or who is an actual leaker is saying close to 3GB. The only people saying less than that are the forum nitwits with no actual knowledge of the system who say, "it can't possibly need that much".

 

[Alx]

Yup. Basically everyone with a source or who is an actual leaker is saying close to 3GB. The only people saying less than that are the forum nitwits with no actual knowledge of the system who say, "it can't possibly need that much".

The real question would be "what will they use all that RAM for ?", considering all you can do with half as much on a PC OS. If they really intend to reserve 3GB for non gaming features, they should have something new and possibly huge running in the background.

 

[shinra-bansho]

He may indeed be right. The language used by Sony suggests they have features they don't want to talk about yet as it would result in negative press/feedback.

They already announced features or lack thereof that resulted in negative feedback - a lack of backwards compatibility with PS3 games.

The real question would be "what will they use all that RAM for ?", considering all you can do with half as much on a PC OS. If they really intend to reserve 3GB for non gaming features, they should have something new and possibly huge running in the background.

Well for one thing...

 

[szaromir]

Yup. Basically everyone with a source or who is an actual leaker is saying close to 3GB. The only people saying less than that are the forum nitwits with no actual knowledge of the system who say, "it can't possibly need that much".

What I don't understand is why people assume 3GB for OS purposes will not give the user some cool functions or value.

 

[KidBeta]

The real question would be "what will they use all that RAM for ?", considering all you can do with half as much on a PC OS. If they really intend to reserve 3GB for non gaming features, they should have something new and possibly huge running in the background.

Some people are saying it may have to do with libraries that they keep in memory to assist with Kinect tracking and what not.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

So you know what features the Xbox 3 will have? Oh no, you don't. The only information we have are several rumors which indicate that the Xbox 3 has 2.5-3 GB reserved for the OS. I don't see any connection to the RAM amount of the PS4, the Xbox 3 could have totally different features. So your argumentation, that Microsoft will have 1.5 GB reserved because the PS4 probably has 512 MB reserved makes no sense.

And you know what?What "different features" to make it need 2.5-3GB RAM?
Btw when Kinect for console need 2GB RAM?Even Kinect1 have own RAM.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

What I don't understand is why people assume 3GB for OS purposes will not give the user some cool functions or value.

Because that is a lot of lost memory for games?

 

[mrklaw]

What I don't understand is why people assume 3GB for OS purposes will not give the user some cool functions or value.

In terms of this forum, I think we are interested in what gaming value it adds, and we are a little confused there. It's not like we haven't tried to think how they could use that much memory.

 

[Thorgal]

What I don't understand is why people assume 3GB for OS purposes will not give the user some cool functions or value.

while i don't doubt that they could do some amazing cool stuf with 3 GB for OS.

people are more worried what price game performance had to pay in order to make said "cool"stuff part of the system .

 

[Alx]

Some people are saying it may have to do with libraries that they keep in memory to assist with Kinect tracking and what not.

Kinect currently runs on a small fraction of the 512M total of the 360... let's guess 1/4th of the RAM max (safe estimation, I doubt it is more than that), that's 128M.
Dedicating, say, 2G to that would be a 16x increase. That's huge, considering neither the resolution nor the number of joints increased dramatically.
The only part that could require much bigger resources could be all the language processing stuff (and it does look like a lot of the hardware is dedicated to sound processing indeed), provided it's done locally and not in the cloud like most other speech recognition systems.

But that still doesn't answer the question : what will all of that allow to do ?

 

[Krisprolls]

But that still doesn't answer the question : what will all of that allow to do ?

Running Windows 8 ?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Kotaku posted an article detailing some features of the NeXBOX.

It listed things like game-juggling, and that Kinect 2.0 will always be on.

Of course, the source is SuperDAE, and I really don't know how reliable his information can be considered.

 

[szaromir]

In terms of this forum, I think we are interested in what gaming value it adds, and we are a little confused there. It's not like we haven't tried to think how they could use that much memory.

Even making sure the OS overlay is supersnappy would be a huge benefit. So far majority of the overlays have been very slow, including ones on PC like Steam. Plus all the extra stuff they could provide. We'll see. Personally I'm not worried about eating too much into the system's resources, 5GB is already plenty of memory for a video game.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Yup. Basically everyone with a source or who is an actual leaker is saying close to 3GB. The only people saying less than that are the forum nitwits with no actual knowledge of the system who say, "it can't possibly need that much".

So Karak become nitwit now?

 

[itsgreen]

Kotaku posted an article detailing some features of the NeXBOX.

It listed things like game-juggling, and that Kinect 2.0 will always be on.

Of course, the source is SuperDAE, and I really don't know how reliable his information can be considered.

In the mean time he has been considered quite reliable...

 

[shinra-bansho]

So Karak become nitwit now?

I forget, but what exactly did that poster provide?

In the mean time he has been considered quite reliable...

In terms of knowing the devkit specs, perhaps. We now know he managed to source devkits by getting into Microsoft's developer network, iirc.

That doesn't necessarily mean he would know all the intended features and functionality of the eventual system as far as I'm aware. And iirc, Kotaku's write up about him implied they weren't always sure whether information they were getting from him was valid or hyperbole/made-up.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

They already announced features or lack thereof that resulted in negative feedback - a lack of backwards compatibility with PS3 games.

Announcing the lack of BC was done very quietly with a lot of people still unaware of its lack of BC. Announcing something like no used games unless you pay an activation fee, as has been suggested by the language used, would result in a far more significant backlash through negative press.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I forget, but what exactly did that poster provide?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46598949&postcount=270
Not saying he is very reliable though

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Can't see that happen
Or what features you talking about?

Well, from what I recall, most of PS4's geniounly great features were associated with an internet connection. Thing like streaming games, partially downloading games, instant demos, interactivity between two players on the same game etc. If you want those to work properly, I imagine you'd need an above average internet connection for that. Gaikai's recommended requirement is 5mbit. Most households here are at 20 mbit average so that won't be a problem. But the system as a whole, I don't think 5-10 mbit would cut it.

How mature. About which features are you even talking?

What do you mean "how mature"? The PS4's features that I stated above are taken for granted here, but most people either forget that there are requirements to utilise those features properly or simly don't want to remember that.

Anywho this is offtopic.

 

[shinra-bansho]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46598949&postcount=270
Not saying he is very reliable though

I meant, what exactly has he provided that's been corroborated by anyone else or any gaming news site.

 

[RoboPlato]

If they were aiming for 512, then 1GB should be plenty. People are scratching their heads wondering what o earth MS needs 3Gb for - suggesting Sony suddenly goes from 512MB to 2Gb is just as head scratching

Yeah, I think it's very likely that Sony will up the OS reserve at first in case they decide to add features later on. Even if 1gb is overkill since they were planning on 512mb it won't be an issue for a while because no one is going to hit 7gb of RAM needed right off the bat. I imagine Durango will end up with about 6gb for games. A 3gb OS reserve just seems insane to me.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I meant, what exactly has he provided that's been corroborated by anyone else or any gaming news site.

Why we need gaming news site to prove it fake or real when they sometimes even quote neogaf to release some news.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Why we need gaming news site to prove it fake or real when they sometimes even quote neogaf to release some news.

Information should either be corroborated by multiple sources; or at the very least come from a source that has some sort of history of reliability...

 

[Appollowexx]

Why we need gaming news site to prove it fake or real when they sometimes even quote neogaf to release some news.

Maybe because sites like Edge and Eurogamer have actual inside sources that share information with them, so they have no need in those instances, to quote a gaming forum.
Edge was dead on about most of its spec rumours to date.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Information should either be corroborated by multiple sources; or at the very least come from a source that has some sort of history of reliability...

That's why i am asking since i'm lazy to check Karak's info
I know i just said something sounds not negative for Durango since this is MS/Xbox bashing thread #32767,but i'm just asking,not saying he is 100% trustful

Maybe because sites like Edge and Eurogamer have actual inside sources that share information with them, so they have no need in those instances, to quote a gaming forum.
Edge was dead on about most of its spec rumours to date.

Edge likely,but about Eurogamer,i remember they said PS4 no chance bump to 8GB or something.

 

[i-Lo]

it is not faster it had more bandwidth but higher latency.

Yet again the latency argument for GDDR5 in an unknown & customized APU environment. For a guy calling out others for drawing conclusions based on rumours, this trope of an argument is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Like I said before nVidia & AMD must be full of imbeciles to not implement lower latency DDR3 in their mid to high end GPUs given the chip density until very recently was double of GDDR5.

 

[dragonelite]

That's why i am asking since i'm lazy to check Karak's info
I know i just said something sounds not negative for Durango since this is MS/Xbox bashing thread #32767,but i'm just asking,not saying he is 100% trustful


Edge likely,but about Eurogamer,i remember they said PS4 no chance bump to 8GB or something.

Sony is probably not run that strict like Microsoft considering the next gen consoles.

 

[Donnie]

Yet again the latency argument for GDDR5 in an unknown & customized APU environment. For a guy calling out others for drawing conclusions based on rumours, this trope of an argument is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Like I said before nVidia & AMD must be full of imbeciles to not implement lower latency DDR3 in their mid to high end GPUs given the chip density until very recently was double of GDDR5.

You both have a point, of course very high bandwidth GDDR5 is excellent for most graphics intensive tasks. While its also fair to say that it isn't really right to talk about bandwidth all the time and ignore latency differences.

 

[c0de]

Yet again the latency argument for GDDR5 in an unknown & customized APU environment. For a guy calling out others for drawing conclusions based on rumours, this trope of an argument is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

So what I said is not true? GDDR5 does not have higher latency than DDR3? That is all I said. No conclusion, nothing. Talking of speed is always the question how it is measured. As you can see the feature vector is not 1-dimensional.

 

[mrklaw]

You both have a point, of course GDDR5 is good for most graphics intensive tasks. While its also fair to say that it isn't really right to talk about bandwidth all the time and ignore latency differences.

The esram isn't there to improve latency, its there to mitigate lower external ram bandwidth. A side effect is improved latency but I doubt anyone would spend that silicon budget just for that reason.

Latency on both DDR3 and GDDR5 is good enough

 

[Donnie]

The esram isn't there to improve latency, its there to mitigate lower external ram bandwidth. A side effect is improved latency but I doubt anyone would spend that silicon budget just for that reason.

Latency on both DDR3 and GDDR5 is good enough

Its their to give the GPU access to a high bandwidth low latency memory pool, both attributes are an important reason to use this kind of technology.

Just about any RAM latency can be considered good enough, but that doesn't mean one having better latency than the other shouldn't be taken into account when talking about performance.

 

[i-Lo]

You both have a point, of course GDDR5 is good for most graphics intensive tasks (though in this case it has to also handle more latency dependent stuff as well). But isn't really right to talk about bandwidth all the time and ignore latency differences.

Except if the latency was an issue of the same magnitude as DDR3's bandwidth in comparison then GDDR5 would have never existed in the first place. People trying to highlight it is as some sort of Achilles heel are only successful at presenting a non sequitur argument.

And as aforementioned, we have not seen GDDR5 in such a customized APU before. Plus, if the developers had issues with the latency, Sony would have never opted for the more expensive GDDR5 in the first place (during planning stages) let alone later double it.

 

[Donnie]

Except if the latency was an issue of the same magnitude as DDR3's bandwidth in comparison then GDDR5 would have never existed in the first place. People trying to highlight it is as some sort of Achilles heel are only successful at presenting a non sequitur argument.

And as aforementioned, we have not seen GDDR5 in such a customized APU before. Plus, if the developers had issues with the latency, Sony would have never opted for the more expensive GDDR5 in the first place (during planning stages) let alone later double it.

GDDR5 exists because its advantages to most graphics intensive tasks far outweigh its disadvantages, I didn't say otherwise. Just that its also fair to say that its wrong to ignore latency differences while instead purely comparing bandwidth.

Its safe to say that PS4's main memory bandwidth is so much higher then XBox3's that its going to outweigh the latency difference and be the significantly higher performing memory in the majority of situations (ignoring XBox3's embedded memory for a moment and simply comparing main RAM). However its still true to point out that 68GB/s vs 172GB/s (or whatever it is) doesn't tells the whole story of the two memory pools.

 

[Reiko]

Information should either be corroborated by multiple sources; or at the very least come from a source that has some sort of history of reliability...

The huge BF4 leak wasn't even quoted from multiple sources. But what you are saying is true though.

 

[i-Lo]

GDDR5 exists because its advantages to most graphics intensive tasks far outweigh its disadvantages, I didn't say otherwise. Just that its also fair to say that its wrong to ignore latency differences while instead purely comparing bandwidth.

Its safe to say that PS4's main memory bandwidth is so much higher then XBox3's that its going to outweigh the latency difference and be the significantly higher performing memory in the majority of situations (ignoring XBox3's embedded memory for a moment and simply comparing main RAM). However its still true to point out that 68GB/s vs 172GB/s (or whatever it is) doesn't tells the whole story of the two memory pools.

It's 176GB/sec

And I completely agree with the last part. Sony's is a straight forward approach whereas MS (according to rumours) are really creative (within the budget limitation). So, PS4's RAM capabilities are not in question as much as my genuine excitement to see how MS would be using ESRAM and Data Move engines to address the difference. While I do not think they will come neck and neck with PS4's solution, the difference in end may end up being non-factor for third party development.

 

[Rolf NB]

GDDR5 exists because its advantages to most graphics intensive tasks far outweigh its disadvantages, I didn't say otherwise. Just that its also fair to say that its wrong to ignore latency differences while instead purely comparing bandwidth.

Its safe to say that PS4's main memory bandwidth is so much higher then XBox3's that its going to outweigh the latency difference and be the significantly higher performing memory in the majority of situations (ignoring XBox3's embedded memory for a moment and simply comparing main RAM). However its still true to point out that 68GB/s vs 172GB/s (or whatever it is) doesn't tells the whole story of the two memory pools.

Go ahead and tell us the latencies of modern GDDR3 and GDDR5 chips.

 

[artist]

I hate to squash the dreams of some here but Lawd SuperDAE said this in response to the "dual-APU" BClifford guy;

fake as f*

RIP Dual APU rumor.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Does anyone think Dual-APU rumor can be real at first?

Go ahead and tell us the latencies of modern GDDR3 and GDDR5 chips.

Well,GDDR3 and DDR3 have pretty big difference

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I hate to squash the dreams of some here but Lawd SuperDAE said this in response to the "dual-APU" BClifford guy;

fake as f*

RIP Dual APU rumor.

It's been a while since I've seen someone so invested in the console wars. Even changing your avatar, that's dedication man. I'm in awe.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Come on MS, just release the info so this thread can be stopped!

 

[artist]

Does anyone think Dual-APU rumor can be real at first?


Well,GDDR3 and DDR3 have pretty big difference

Yes ...

Whoa... This is very big if true.

Your post and this:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1715919&postcount=1675

The thing going around is "double" of what we know.




Durango hardware (Specs we know) should target 4K movies as well.

what's batshit crazy? The dual apu? That's not batshit crazy because we know at least one Microsoft team was working on a dual apu hardware configuration(Yukon) and if Paul Thurrot is right, that was not dropped until last year.

Why dismiss the idea that another team came up with a similar config? Or that things from the Yukon was rolled over into another design.

We are talking about a multi-billion dollar company. They have back up plans for their back up plans. Not to mention the fact that there was that article a few weeks back about Microsoft being on lock down with people with in departments working on projects their supervisors don't even known about.

and I would put money that even if they have chosen a configuration, there are variations of that configuration also.

A product is not complete until it goes into manufacturing.

Now if people think the 8 jaguar core 1.2tf is the next box, that's fine. very logical conclusion. But don't try to impose your logic on to somebody else. Let Reiko think what he thinks. If he wrong, he is wrong.

It's been a while since I've seen someone so invested in the console wars. Even changing your avatar, that's dedication man. I'm in awe.

I'm assuming you dont find that funny. But why so bitter? (It's a simple 1 min paint job and I dont care for avatars tbh)