XtremeXpider
Member
I guess nVidia is the issue...
VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
I guess nVidia is the issue...
Well theres a difference in performance if the API does not expose something, also not going through the API does let you get rid of a bit of the cruft that it adds but its not like its a giant difference but it is still there.
They both go through an api layer (DirectX for Xbox, LibGCM for PS), but this layer is as thin as can be (low level) and they expose all the features of the system and you can also go "direct to metal" but it is generally not necessary unless you want to really fine tune performance. These console api are really light and low level that you can do whatever you want to do in that environment. Xbox 360 has a DirectX 9+ api layer in that it is similar to the one on pc but without the OS, drivers, system overhead, and all the features on the system was exposed. The DirectX 11.x layer on the durango is also similar to the one on PC but I would expect minimal overheads and it exposes all the custom features of the system.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Can someone give a fast recap what is going on here? Thread exploded and apparently there are some crazy rumors about dual APU or somethin?
PS3 API was lower level but it's not a advantage all the time
With libgcm you were practically if not actually writing commands directly into the command buffers
oldergamer
Member
ms has always exposed additional functionality in dx on both revisions of xbox. they also allow for coding close to the metal further in the life cycle of each console. EXACTLY what sony does.
Again like i said it's a non issue.
Wouldn't they be able to use assembly wherever? Ala: http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/15971/Using-Inline-Assembly-in-C-C
oldergamer
Member
Nonsense. you know this how exactly?
This is the same my dick is bigger then your with the OS rumor taking up 3 gigs on durango. windows desktop os doesn't take that much and ms managed to do more with 32 MB on the 360 then sony did with 64 MB on the ps3. it wouldn't surprise me at all if ms used less memory then sony again and did more.
lastflowers
Banned
Well for one the entire PS3 3.4 (or something) SDK is out this has entire technical documentation on RSX and also libgcm. So thats how we know.
So I guess that makes it less 'nonsense' and more 'you don't understand'.
Perfect reply lol
Slow News:
Durango will have Skype voice calling integration
http://www.inquisitr.com/562362/xbox-720-to-reportedly-have-skype-voice-calling-integration/
Durango will have Skype voice calling integration
http://www.inquisitr.com/562362/xbox-720-to-reportedly-have-skype-voice-calling-integration/
Nice since I'm an active Skype user but slow news indeed....
oldergamer
Member
So you are trying to tell us how well sony's API's perform, better then the competition based on "documentation"? You clearly don't have any knowledge how well the xbox API's perform. Is that a logical position to take when you know nothing official about the competing platform?
like i said before, you pretty much have an MO in these threads. Being a nay sayer or having compelling arguments is one thing, making comments to make ps4/sony or whatever look best in every way you can imagine possible (when you clearly don't know) is another. It's becoming rather annoying when it's clear your opinion has biased your judgement with statements like the above.
Yup I escalated it.
It's a pretty well known fact that it exposes more (albeit not by a great deal) then DX and what's on the 360 and I am right , goto tpb and you can download it yourself. The low level libgcm API gave them accesses to bits of the hardware usually not exposed and also allowed them to reuse some data among other things this allowed them to squeeze more power out of the rsx.
For those of you downplaying the 50% more computing power of the PS4 GPU I have a question:
What if the Xbox 3 specs changed & now it's GPU is 50% more powerful than the PS4 GPU?
PS4 1.84TFLOPS vs Xbox 3 2.76TFLOPS
are you telling me that you would only see this as a slight advantage?
What if the Xbox 3 specs changed & now it's GPU is 50% more powerful than the PS4 GPU?
PS4 1.84TFLOPS vs Xbox 3 2.76TFLOPS
are you telling me that you would only see this as a slight advantage?
I don't know what would happen... But GAF would 404 and meltdown.
oldergamer
Member
TFLOPS don't matter man! It literally tells you zip about how capable a system is. The only people throwing around TFLOPS as a measuring mark are Sony and peeps that don't know one way or the other.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Yes, even ignoring the market significance, theoretical peak GPU performance only matters so much when the underlying architectures of the systems are basically different, despite the similarities in some components.
We will wait and see, it's better that MS keeps the specs secret until it's unveiling that way it will be more surprising than these rumored leaks.
Wrong. I think you should read the thread on xbox 360 api and coding to the metal on B3D. Sebbbi actually referenced the ability to write directly into the command buffers.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
you'd get about maybe a 10-15% usable yield precentage boost.
oldergamer
Member
Actually it's not a well known "fact" I like how you try to firm up what you are saying by throwing in the word "fact". Documents saying you have "X" functionality isn't an indication of how well something performs! DX on the 360 does EXACTLY the same thing. It exposes functionality specific to that hardware that wouldn't typically be exposed on the PC.
Link me, also coding to the metal and a low level API are not related
Can you stop using these terms if you don't understand them
You can search for it yourself. And I do understand them. You, on the other hand, should stop saying what you don't know.
oldergamer
Member
Kidbeta its actually clear you don't understand those terms. Coding to the metal is a term used when there's no api/abstraction layer between you and the hardware. With consoles that is often when an API provides direct access to specific hardware.
Btw, it's really disingenuous to ask him to provide a link when you had done nothing of the sort so support your "opinion" while throwing around words like "fact".
Well you haven't provided any evidence for your facts either.
And BTW coding to the metal still uses plenty of API's. You cannot get much or anything done without a API. The only difference is that your coding in something which doesn't get translated to machine code, you generally either code in something that has a 1 to 1 relation to machine code or something near that.
To even reserve memory on a closed system requires a API.
No you clearly don't.
What is all this API-talking now? Really, Microsoft builds APIs and compilers (I even remember their own assembler masm I used aeons ago). DirectX was once inferior to OpenGL but nowadays DirectX (and 3d, of course) is what is used nowadays - even the demoscene uses it to make their impressive demos. MS also delivers Visual Studio which is also used widely. They know what they are doing when it comes to APIs and Dev-kits, of course also documentation. Look at all the gorgios looking games like Halo 4, Forza Horizon, Gears of War:Judgment and all the games which look better on 360 than on PS3 ans tell me that there is API-Overhead which in any means affetcs 360s performance. And this is on PPC-platform, with X86-64 they know way better what to do and what not.
Also keep in mind that TressFX AMD did is based on DirectCompute and, surprise, it is an API Microsoft developed.
Also keep in mind that TressFX AMD did is based on DirectCompute and, surprise, it is an API Microsoft developed.
Naa I most certainly do. My previous post says as much:
I am not a developer and I have never claimed to be one but I do read and learn. Developers working on both machines have talked about their apis and coding for them. I believe these developers more than I will ever believe you dude. The sooner you get off your high horse the better for you.
He already said that he is not a games-programmer so so I don't know how he ever got on a high horse.
But the DX API on the 360 is not as thin as libgcm, sure you can go down further if you want but it is not as thin in itself.
You can choose not to believe this if you really want, but its the truth.
I written a game before, its just not my profession.
oldergamer
Member
I already said coding to the metal means there's little to NO api between the coder and the hardware. If there's an API between you and the hardware at all times, then you cannot code to the metal. Again, you're arguments carry no weight at all. There's no way to tell that API's sony uses is any more low level then what MS is using unless you have seen both, right? you certainly can't tell performance by reading sdk docs, I don't need evidence to prove that. it's simply common sense.
oh brother... good response.
No, it isn't. You can choose not to believe this if you really want, but its the truth.
Very good argumentation, well done.
So did I. That doesn't neccessarily mean anything in terms of competence and knowledge.
Coding to the metal just means in assembly pretty much. So yeah its possible with plenty of API's. Its hard to find info on the net about the xbox360 api but you would have to trust me i guess thats too hard to believe because right?.
It does actually, clearly you know more then 90% of the people in this thread.
Lol. Believe what you want, but for the benefit of those that you might be misleading here is the link to the thread: http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62049. If you want to read it to then knock yourself out. Maybe you might learn a thing or two there.
oldergamer
Member
yeah I do choose not to believe bullshit. that's the truth.
somehow i doubt that.
If you're written a game before you would understand that your original statement about looking at SDK docs is no way to tell how "thin" or the "performance" of an API, specifically when you haven't read sdk docs for both platforms.
Interesting I was wrong
wow guys on gaf can be dicks, especially the hardcore fans :/. I doubt you even know a thing about programming but whatever.
I never said anything about the performance of the API just how thin it was.
What are you talking about? Intrinsics? And just because you don't find any (relevant?) info about the 360 api let's you guess about a superior api ps3 has? REALLY? Like I said how are the mentioned games on 360 possible without an appropriate API and an efficient way to swap every bit to save cycles?
Superior or thiner?, can't you read?.
oldergamer
Member
There's a number of developers (actual console developers) in that thread that are telling it like it is. No fanboy talk, just the facts. kidbeta you are wrong and you really should stop arguing about it.
Who are they and which companies do they work for.
I think 50% more computing power is going to mean a lot this Gen because the GPU isn't just a GPU anymore it's a GPGPU & devs will be using the computing power in different ways. plus this generation will be the 2nd generation of HD consoles at 720P & 1080P so it's at that point where they will be just throwing more at their games since they have had time to get used to HD gaming, kinda like the SNES/Sega Genesis of the 2D SD era or the PS2/GC/Xbox of the 3D SD era, the ground work was laid out the generation before so the devs will have more freedom to & time to figure out how to get even more out of the systems so they will find plenty to do with 50% more GPU power especial with computing.
So what is the benefit of "thinner"?
Less steps of translation between what you write and what happens on the hardware, doesn't necessarily make it better or better performance.
oldergamer
Member
I've been developing games for 20 years. I've come to know a little
...and why would you try to say one console api is thinner then the next? What was the point you were trying to get at, other then one API is better (which is either performance related to overhead, or easy of use) then the other. In both cases I think the DX on 360 beats the API's sony was using.
Oh so now you are in fact wrong eh? And reading the comments you just made, you are still arguing about this? wow
Sebastian Aaltonen AKA Sebbbi works for RedLynx.
Specifically he worked on Trials Evolution.
I know who the people at B3D are and who they work for, I meant in this thread here.