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[mrklaw]

Is it not something that AMD are trying to customize the GPU for with 8 ASE (or was it ACE) and 64 instruction que (iirc) or something to that effect to increase GPU efficiency and eliminate any downtime for any CU be it for GPGPU or rendering related tasks?

I don't think so. I think the ACEs are there more for compute tasks. They should help mask latency there and keep the CUs full with stuff to do, but I don't think they'll do much for pure graphics tasks.

But as previously mentioned, high end PC GPUs seem to manage just fine with GDDR5 and latency

 

[scently]

You mean the guy who has no insider info and is yet another MS cheerleader? You need to be more discerning with who you read and believe. I'm inclined to take the leaked docs at face value and believe 6t (otherwise the would be misusing the name eSRAM).

Oh I see. I don't know why I took him as such. Anyway that is still besides the point anyway.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Lets assume this is primarily there reason for using SRAM, it does not exclude it from being of benefit for other cases, especially when the one example they gave of its benefit has nothing to do with Kinect 2.0:

Durango has no video memory (VRAM) in the traditional sense, but the GPU does contain 32 MB of fast embedded SRAM (ESRAM). ESRAM on Durango is free from many of the restrictions that affect EDRAM on Xbox 360. Durango supports the following scenarios:

Texturing from ESRAM
Rendering to surfaces in main RAM
Read back from render targets without performing a resolve (in certain cases)


The difference in throughput between ESRAM and main RAM is moderate: 102.4 GB/sec versus 68 GB/sec. The advantages of ESRAM are lower latency and lack of contention from other memory clients—for instance the CPU, I/O, and display output. Low latency is particularly important for sustaining peak performance of the color blocks (CBs) and depth blocks (DBs).

That actually sounds a lot like PS2 to me.

 

[Krilekk]

even if durango is weaker on paper, even by an amount that would be noticable in games, I don't see MS panicking. Firstly they are probably happy with their offer overall and how it is balanced. Secondly, I expect they think they can steamroller Sony with marketing. I expect unprecedented amounts of spend on this launch - it'll make kinect look like an ad in your local paper.

Scary thing is it could work well too.

Won't happen. They spent 500 million on Kinect because it was affordable and at a mass market price. Even so all the Kinects shipped so far only add up to a revenue of 3 billion so the marketing money cut deep into profits. And it wasn't even needed because the mainstream press was so into Kinect that they wouldn't have needed all that advertising space. That money is much better spent in timed exclusives like Call of Duty and GTA V. Give Activision and Take 2 150 million each and you have your system sellers.

 

[scently]

That actually sounds a lot like PS2 to me.

So? It still doesn't dispute the point I was making. The fact that it has none of the restrictions on the eDRAM implementation certainly makes it alot more similar to the ps2 in terms of architecture and not memory choice.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

So?

Nothing. Just saying we have already seen this kind of architecture and it's not something new.

 

[longdi]

Kinect2 will be marketed like minority report and casuals will gobble it up!

 

[scently]

Nothing. Just saying we have already seen this kind of architecture and it's not something new.

I updated my post but you are commenting on the other part of that text and not the main one you should be reading. see: the part about low latency specifically.

 

[LukasTaves]

But that's the problem, in your simplified scenario it might make a difference, but in reality we have GDDR5 GPUs in PCs running games are 120fps or above. It doesn't seem like a very big deal, and it feels like certain people are trying to turn it into an issue so Durango doesn't seem so bad. Which is quite sad.

But on these same gpus with teraflops of processing power we seen things like oversimplified hair simulations that don't even take in account the actual model geometry, or even lots of debris flying off the screen taking a much higher toll on framerate that they had any right to take.

In parallel, in the beginning of current generation we had some pretty cool demos regarding fluid dynamics that ended up never coming to fruition (intel bought havok and pretty much killed havok fluids on other platforms to make it available on Larrabee, and Nvidia did the same with physx fluid simulations and their gpus), running on processors with 20-30 times less processing power than current gpus.

A new console gpu is not made to run last generation games, they are made to run newer games, with different workloads. Which is why we are hearing about both Ms and sony customizing their consoles to be able to coupe to what will be the workload a few years from now.

 

[Reiko]

even if durango is weaker on paper, even by an amount that would be noticable in games, I don't see MS panicking. Firstly they are probably happy with their offer overall and how it is balanced. Secondly, I expect they think they can steamroller Sony with marketing. I expect unprecedented amounts of spend on this launch - it'll make kinect look like an ad in your local paper.

Scary thing is it could work well too.

Maybe they should have ignored Epic and stuck with 256MB of RAM.


The exclusives and multiplats that we know today wouldn't have looked the same.

 

[Kleegamefan]

IMO, Kinect 2.0 is the reason MS went with eSRAM. I believe every XB3 will have mandatory Kinect, necessatating the use of low latency embedded memory on die.

If you think about it, next gen decisions will be difficult because all 3 consoles will potentially offer unique experiences.

XB3/Durango is not quite like a PS4..... and neither of those are like a WII U....

This quite unlike this gen where you had thr wii on one side and the hd twins on the other...

Sadly, this fact should induce a bitter fanboy flame war the likes of which have never been seen!

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

You did misunderstand bkillian, he just said what I did, albeit much less clearly.

Thanks.

So that I don't make this mistake again......in percentage terms, how much faster/higher is PS4 to the rumoured Durango specs on the main bullet points?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I updated my post but you are commenting on the other part of that text and not the main one you should be reading. see: the part about low latency specifically.

That was what I was commenting on. The bolded part sounds a lot like PS2. It made up for low system memory bandwidth by increasing peak utilisation. However, back then peak utilisation was a much bigger problem which is why Sony went for that architecture, it gave better bang for buck, now GPU/CPU utilisation isn't so much of a problem because everything is multi-threaded and the bus is wide enough.

The choice of eSRAM was not made to boost peak utilisation, it was made to boost bandwidth and keep the latency low. I've already laid out why they needed this, it doesn't bear repeating. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand and pretend to yourself that Durango is going to have equal performance to PS4 that's fine with me, I really don't care.

 

[Thorgal]

Man people are really getting desperate to the point that all reasoning or common sense is thrown out the window and suddenly they believe nearly every rumor no matter how insane or physically impossible it is just to find some way for the (rumored specs) xbox3 to achieve parity with ps4.


If MS is truly launching the console with these specs and it performs worse than PS4 i expect half of GAF to have a mental breakdown.

 

[kmag]

Low latency for GPUs isn't a big deal, they have been working fine with high latency GDDR based RAM for donkey's years.

I can understand what people are saying, I just don't see how it leads to conclusions like this, "ESRAM+12 CU's~18 CU's" because that's just bollocks. eSRAM is not going to make that much difference, more likely it will allow for better real time calculations for Kinect, that's why Durango looks like a latency monster.

High memory latency isn't that big a deal for GPUs due to the nature of the workload, but Nvidia have been getting more performance from comparatively less flops with small low latency caches in their GPU's so it's not like there's not a conceivable method of closing small theoretical performance gaps via low latency...

...but from what's been leaked that's not what we're dealing with here. It's two awfully similar AMD GPU's one with a fair bit more grunt than the other. I can't see that being closed by the memory subsystem, efficiencies or latency alone.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Thanks.

So that I don't make this mistake again......in percentage terms, how much faster/higher is PS4 to the rumoured Durango specs on the main bullet points?

100% more ROPs
50% more FLOPS
160% more memory bandwidth without eSRAM, ~ the same memory with.

 

[Biggzy]

Man people are really getting desperate to the point that all reasoning or common sense is thrown out the window and suddenly they believe nearly every rumor no matter how insane or physically impossible it is just to find some way for the (rumored specs) xbox3 to achieve parity with ps4.


If MS is truly launching the console with these specs and it performs worse than PS4 i expect half of GAF to have a mental breakdown.

Nah, that would only happen if Durango manages to be in the same 'ballpark' as the PS4.

 

[Reiko]

Man people are really getting desperate to the point that all reasoning or common sense is thrown out the window and suddenly they believe nearly every rumor no matter how insane or physically impossible it is just to find some way for the (rumored specs) xbox3 to achieve parity with ps4.


If MS is truly launching the console with these specs and it performs worse than PS4 i expect half of GAF to have a mental breakdown.

Of course it's bound to happen. MS having 2 consoles previously with 2 powerful GPUs (Compared to the competition at the time) going the weaker route is extremely jarring.

 

[scently]

That was what I was commenting on. The bolded part sounds a lot like PS2. It made up for low system memory bandwidth by increasing peak utilisation. However, back then peak utilisation was a much bigger problem which is why Sony went for that architecture, it gave better bang for buck, now GPU/CPU utilisation isn't so much of a problem because everything is multi-threaded and the bus is wide enough.

The choice of eSRAM was not made to boost peak utilisation, it was made to boost bandwidth and keep the latency low. I've already laid out why they needed this, it doesn't bear repeating. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand and pretend to yourself that Durango is going to have equal performance to PS4 that's fine with me, I really don't care.

Lol, you should probably take your own advice as I have at no point in this conversation said that the eSRAM will make the durango equal to the ps4. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand and pretend to yourself that that is what I am saying that's fine with me, I really don't care. Hehe.

 

[longdi]

well PS2 main ram was 3.2gb/s and its edram was 48gb/s. Xbox have only 6.4gb/s in total. PS2 gpu also had more than twice the fillrate of xbox! Durango gpu/esram looks shitty in comparison to PS4.

 

[Reiko]

well PS2 main ram was 3.2gb/s and its edram was 48gb/s. PS2 gpu also has more than twice the fillrate of xbox! Durango gpu/esram looks shitty in comparison to PS4.

All that fillrate and a small number of titles that ran in 480p. Pathetic. lol

 

[scently]

well PS2 main ram was 3.2gb/s and its edram was 48gb/s. PS2 gpu also has more than twice the fillrate of xbox! Durango gpu/esram looks shitty in comparison to PS4.

Except this isn't about the bandwidth, its about the memory choice (eSRAM) and its implication. At least that's what I am talking about.

 

[Alebrije]

100% more ROPs
50% more FLOPS
160% more memory bandwidth without eSRAM, ~ the same memory with.

Does this difference have an impact on graphics, physics , AI ? something that really can separate PS4 from 720 on power term? and not just a difference similiar to PS3 VS XBOX.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

100% more ROPs
50% more FLOPS
160% more memory bandwidth without eSRAM, ~ the same memory with.

Thanks again. I think I get where/why I was getting confused now.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Does this difference have an impact on graphics, physics , AI ? something that really can separate PS4 from 720 on power term? and not just a difference similiar to PS3 VS XBOX.

For first party it definitely will, for multiplats it really depends on what the developer/publishers allow. They might not want to release an inferior title on the other system.

 

[onQ123]

Thanks.

So that I don't make this mistake again......in percentage terms, how much faster/higher is PS4 to the rumoured Durango specs on the main bullet points?

PS4 GPU has 50% more GFLOPS than the Xbox 3 GPU

Xbox 3 GPU has 33% less GFLOPS than the PS4 GPU

PS4 GPU has 150% of the GFLOPS of Xbox 3 GPU

Xbox 3 GPU has 67% of the GFLOPS of the PS4 GPU

or you can make it easy on yourself & just say PS4 GPU has 610 more GFLOPS than the Xbox 3 GPU.

 

[statham]

this thread needs more %.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Man people are really getting desperate to the point that all reasoning or common sense is thrown out the window and suddenly they believe nearly every rumor no matter how insane or physically impossible it is just to find some way for the (rumored specs) xbox3 to achieve parity with ps4.


If MS is truly launching the console with these specs and it performs worse than PS4 i expect half of GAF to have a mental breakdown.

In a way, it doesn't have to match ps4, performance-wise.....xb3 sounds like it be an entertainment hub (of which, games playing will be just one element) wheras ps4 is a gaming machine, (where entertainment and social connectivity are enhancements, not the core)

And so, on a gaming forum, you can be sure a high-spec gaming console likethe ps4 will be a neogaf darling, but do not underestimate the appeal xb3 will have in the marketplace.

From what it sounds, we have never had an entertainment product quite like it before.

 

[Alebrije]

For first party it definitely will, for multiplats it really depends on what the developer/publishers allow. They might not want to release an inferior title on the other system.

Thats for sure , developers will use the console that has more userbase and then port to other cosoles. At this moment is ot early to know what will happens but if PS4 games (fisrt party) look way beyond 720 ( more than current generation ) will be a plus for Sony , in the other side if the difference is like current generation there si not going to be any adventaje...

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Wow at such a large portion of NeoGAF failing sixth-grade level mathematics.

 

[Can Crusher]

Does this difference have an impact on graphics, physics , AI ? something that really can separate PS4 from 720 on power term? and not just a difference similiar to PS3 VS XBOX.

It's a much larger difference. You see 360 had advantages, Durango doesn't seem to have a single one and it has much less raw power.

There's gonna be a pretty big discrepancy in 1st party offerings as soon as 2 years into the console's life, and multiplat releases really have 0 reason to not perform better on Ps4.

MS is fucking up IMO

 

[Kleegamefan]

100% more ROPs
50% more FLOPS
160% more memory bandwidth without eSRAM, ~[BOLD] the same memory with.[/BOLD]

Xb3. Ddr3 is 68GB/sec and eSRAM is 102GB/sec


You can't add them together and get 170 GB/sec, can you?

And even if you could, eSRAM is a measly 32MB...... not quite an apples/apples comparison to 8 GBs of 176/sec GDDR5, is it?

 

[Biggzy]

Xb3. Ddr3 is 68GB/sec and eSRAM is 102GB/sec


You can't add them together and get 170 GB/sec, can you?

And even if you could, eSRAM is a measly 32MB...... not quite an apples/apples comparison to 8 GBs of 176/sec GDDR5, is it?

The GPU can read in parallel from the DDR3 and ESRAM.

 

[RayMaker]

So the PS4 is like a durango + WiiU duct taped together?

 

[onQ123]

So the PS4 is like a durango + WiiU duct taped together?

+ a 360

 

[Osiris]

The GPU can read in parallel from the DDR3 and ESRAM.

That still doesn't change the fact that the ESRAM is only 32MB.

You can't really make an Apples to Apples comparison, but the advantage does, at this time, seem tipped in the PS4's favor.

Higher Bandwidth UMA architecture vs a slightly less unified solution, More powerful GPU on the same archtecture.

Just how heavily it's tipped in the PS4's favor is open to debate, as is whether or not we'll see any difference in multiplatform titles.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

So the PS4 is like a durango + WiiU duct taped together?

They should've duct taped a PS3 for BC.

 

[Biggzy]

That still doesn't change the fact that the ESRAM is only 32MB.

You can't really make an Apples to Apples comparison, but the advantage does, at this time, seem tipped in the PS4's favor.

Higher Bandwidth UMA architecture vs a slightly less unified solution, More powerful GPU on the same archtecture.

Just how heavily it's tipped in the PS4's favor is open to debate, as is whether or not we'll see any difference in multiplatform titles.

Was I arguing against it? The user asked the question whether you can add the two bandwidths together and I answered it.

 

[RayMaker]

comparing the two vg leaks articles on the durango's and PS4's GPU's.

The both look pretty different, we know the PS4's GPU is based of the 7000 series, but it says the durango's GPU is custom.

Is there anything in this article hinting what the Durango GPU is based on?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-gpu-compute-queues-and-pipelines/

If it is custom couldn't the actual compute units or other critical hardware , be made differently then regular 7000 series/PS4 GPU's compute units, that make the durangos gflops more potent?

 

[Karma]

For first party it definitely will, for multiplats it really depends on what the developer/publishers allow. They might not want to release an inferior title on the other system.

Multiplatform will look the same on both. No different than this gen. It will come down to if you like MS exclusives or PS exclusives, any non gaming functions and price. So, most 360 fans will pick 720 and most PS3 fans will pick PS4.

 

[Kleegamefan]

comparing the two vg leaks articles on the durango's and PS4's GPU's.

The both look pretty different, we know the PS4's GPU is based of the 7000 series, but it says the durango's GPU is custom.

Is there anything in this article hinting what the Durango GPU is based on?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-gpu-compute-queues-and-pipelines/

If it is custom couldn't the actual compute units or other critical have made differently then regular 7000 series/PS4 GPU's compute units, that make the durangos gflops more potent?

The gpu block diagram in your link is pure amd gcn.....it does not look like anything else, really, and that is the main reason posters have so comfortably compared the two, they are similar architecture (gcn) from the same hardware vendor(amd).

Btw, mark cerny mentioned ps4 gpu is a customized chip at playstation meeting 2013 and amd themselves announced they would release an apu *without* the sony _customizations_

Then, of course, you have edge magazine saying they are both gcn, and they have been the most accurate source of all.....more so than even vgleaks

 

[Biggzy]

comparing the two vg leaks articles on the durango's and PS4's GPU's.

The both look pretty different, we know the PS4's GPU is based of the 7000 series, but it says the durango's GPU is custom.

Is there anything in this article hinting what the Durango GPU is based on?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-gpu-compute-queues-and-pipelines/

If it is custom couldn't the actual compute units or other critical hardware , be made differently then regular 7000 series/PS4 GPU's compute units, that make the durangos gflops more potent?

We believe Durango's GPU is based on the 7770. The main difference that I know of is that Durango's has 2 more CU but is clocked lower than the regular 7770.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

comparing the two vg leaks articles on the durango's and PS4's GPU's.

The both look pretty different, we know the PS4's GPU is based of the 7000 series, but it says the durango's GPU is custom.

Is there anything in this article hinting what the Durango GPU is based on?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-gpu-compute-queues-and-pipelines/

If it is custom couldn't the actual compute units or other critical hardware , be made differently then regular 7000 series/PS4 GPU's compute units, that make the durangos gflops more potent?

Recent rumors said that the PS4 GPU could be GCN2, it has additional ACEs which seem to support this rumor.

 

[Oemenia]

comparing the two vg leaks articles on the durango's and PS4's GPU's.

The both look pretty different, we know the PS4's GPU is based of the 7000 series, but it says the durango's GPU is custom.

Is there anything in this article hinting what the Durango GPU is based on?

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/

http://www.vgleaks.com/orbis-gpu-compute-queues-and-pipelines/

If it is custom couldn't the actual compute units or other critical hardware , be made differently then regular 7000 series/PS4 GPU's compute units, that make the durangos gflops more potent?

Wasnt it a similar case with the Xenos and RSX where RSX had the bigger numbers but was clumsily thrown in with the Xenos being an all round performer with the future in mind?

 

[RayMaker]

So this is just standard CGN/Cape verde stuff, no secret sauce or anything

 

[Kleegamefan]

Wasnt it a similar case with the Xenos and RSX where RSX had the bigger numbers but was clumsily thrown in with the Xenos being an all round performer with the future in mind?

Wat?

Xenos is the first ever consumer unified shader gpu designed by amd/ati, while rsx is a totally off the shelf gpu made by nvidia..

Couldn't have found 2 more disimilar gpus if you tried

Contrast that with today, where both xb3/ps4 are using apus with gcn gpus and 8 core x86 jaguar cpus!!!!

Never in the history of consoles have we seen two competitors with more similar architectures!!

They will probably even launch together, the first time ever for the xbox/playstation brands

First time, ps2 went first with nintendo/xbox launching together a year later

2nd time, xbox 360 went first with ps3 and wii a year behind.

Now we have the final combination, nintendo with the "first mover advantage" (luz) and xb3/ps4 launching together

 

[i-Lo]

Recent rumors said that the PS4 GPU could be GCN2, it has additional ACEs which seem to support this rumor.

Do we have an idea as to what exactly GCN2 would entail in terms of efficiency and/or performance in retail cards? I remember someone here saying that PS4 GPU is best described as GCN 1.x

 

[Kleegamefan]

Do we have an idea as to what exactly GCN2 would entail in terms of efficiency and/or performance in retail cards? I remember someone here saying that PS4 GPU is best described as GCN 1.x

No official details of gcn2/tenerife.

We do know ps4 is something more than gcn 1.0, though.......whether its full blown 2.0 or something between cape verde/tenerife is anyone's guess, though -_-

 

[artist]

Wasnt it a similar case with the Xenos and RSX where RSX had the bigger numbers but was clumsily thrown in with the Xenos being an all round performer with the future in mind?

Far from a similar situation. PS4 based on the leaks so far is using far more simpler architecture and with better, more powerful hardware.

Do we have an idea as to what exactly GCN2 would entail in terms of efficiency and/or performance in retail cards? I remember someone here saying that PS4 GPU is best described as GCN 1.x

It's because we dont know GCN2.0 yet, it's probably best to term it GCN+ until then.

 

[soul creator]

this thread is fun to read if you imagine all the references to "GCN" are references to the Gamecube.