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[Thorgal]

Multiplatform will look the same on both. No different than this gen. It will come down to if you like MS exclusives or PS exclusives, any non gaming functions and price. So, most 360 fans will pick 720 and most PS3 fans will pick PS4.

sorry but i disagree with this .

There is no reason whatsoever that if the ps4 has more power than xbox 3 devellopers won't make use of it - why limit themselves?

not even ms parity law cant stop that from happening unless they have gone insane

say for example call of duty runs on ps4 at 60 FPS locked at 1080 with more particles and effects then xbox 3 who runs the game at 40- 60 fps at sub full hd with les particles and effects .

because of the difference between the two do you realy expect MS to say they that they refuse to put the game on xbox and therefore make the game ps4/pc only and lose millions of sales and casual marketshare to sony?

If that is the case . ms might as well put the gun to their heads right now .

 

[Krilekk]

If that is the case . ms might as well put the gun to their heads right now .

It happened this gen, will happen next gen.

 

[onQ123]

this thread is fun to read if you imagine all the references to "GCN" are references to the Gamecube.

Gamecubes & Jaguars all up in this bitch.

 

[RoboPlato]

Gamecubes & Jaguars all up in this bitch.

Don't forget the duct tape.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

It happened this gen, will happen next gen.

What happened?

 

[Flatline]

Multiplatform will look the same on both. No different than this gen. It will come down to if you like MS exclusives or PS exclusives, any non gaming functions and price. So, most 360 fans will pick 720 and most PS3 fans will pick PS4.

If the rumored specs are true that would be highly unlikely. Do you really think devs will gimp their games on PS4 for Microsoft's sake?

 

[RoboPlato]

If the rumored specs are true that would be highly unlikely. Do you really think devs will gimp their games on PS4 for Microsoft's sake?

If the RAM amount in Durango winds up eventually being a concern then level design will have to be paired back to keep it running on all platforms but I don't expect that to happen for a few years at least. Given how similar the architectures are I think PS4 will at least have a performance advantage and some effects advantages in most games.

 

[Flatline]

If the RAM amount in Durango winds up eventually being a concern then level design will have to be paired back to keep it running on all platforms but I don't expect that to happen for a few years at least. Given how similar the architectures are I think PS4 will at least have a performance advantage and some effects advantages in most games.

It's not just the RAM specs though, although significant, it's also the GPU. If rumored specs are true they're simply not at the same level, and just like it happens with PC compared to console versions devs will definitely find ways to use that extra power.

 

[Can Crusher]

If the RAM amount in Durango winds up eventually being a concern then level design will have to be paired back to keep it running on all platforms but I don't expect that to happen for a few years at least. Given how similar the architectures are I think PS4 will at least have a performance advantage and some effects advantages in most games.

This makes no sense, ram amount a problem in Durango? Durango has more memory than PS4 from the leaks. (not accounting for OS reserves because we still don't know)

Pretty sure graphical effects will have little bearing on level design.

 

[RoboPlato]

This makes no sense, ram amount a problem in Durango? Durango has more memory than PS4 from the leaks. (not accounting for OS reserves because we still don't know)

Pretty sure graphical effects will have little bearing on level design.

I was referring to if it has a giant OS reserve. Like I said, even if it does happen it won't be for a while.

I also wasn't saying that visual effects have an effect on level design. I was just saying that the lowest common denominator argument doesn't work as well in regards to visuals for next gen. Only in the extreme case where RAM is an issue on Durango will it hold back the PS4 version and not in graphics. Again, I find this an unlikely or far off scenario.

 

[jaypah]

This makes no sense, ram amount a problem in Durango? Durango has more memory than PS4 from the leaks. (not accounting for OS reserves because we still don't know)

Pretty sure graphical effects will have little bearing on level design.

but they both have the same amount of ram, with the PS4 ram being faster. That before we even learn of the OS reserves.

 

[artist]

but they both have the same amount of ram, with the PS4 ram being faster. That before we even learn of the OS reserves.

Durango has more RAM.

Spoiler

32MB more

 

[Syphon Filter]

If the rumored specs are true that would be highly unlikely. Do you really think devs will gimp their games on PS4 for Microsoft's sake?

Well supposedly ps3 was more powerful but 360 got the better versions usually. I can only see ps4 getting games not gimped for 3rd party if it sells reasonably more than the next xbox.

 

[RoboPlato]

Well supposedly ps3 was more powerful but 360 got the better versions usually. I can only see ps4 getting games not gimped for 3rd party if it sells reasonably more than the next xbox.

PS3 was a pain to develop for and had a worse GPU than the 360. Neither of those are problems for PS4.

 

[jaypah]

Durango has more RAM.

Spoiler

32MB more

I was wondering if that's what he meant.

 

[Can Crusher]

I was referring to if it has a giant OS reserve. Like I said, even if it does happen it won't be for a while.

I also wasn't saying that visual effects have an effect on level design. I was just saying that the lowest common denominator argument doesn't work as well in regards to visuals for next gen. Only in the extreme case where RAM is an issue on Durango will it hold back the PS4 version and not in graphics. Again, I find this an unlikely or far off scenario.

Yeah makes sense.

I was wondering if that's what he meant.

Of course, what else would it mean?

 

[artist]

I was wondering if that's what he meant.

List wars taken to a whole new

Spoiler

low

level.

 

[onQ123]

Well supposedly ps3 was more powerful but 360 got the better versions usually. I can only see ps4 getting games not gimped for 3rd party if it sells reasonably more than the next xbox.

because what made the PS3 more powerful was the SPE's & required re-coding the game to take advantage of them with the PS4 having a more powerful GPU it's a different story.

 

[AZ Greg]

Well supposedly ps3 was more powerful but 360 got the better versions usually. I can only see ps4 getting games not gimped for 3rd party if it sells reasonably more than the next xbox.

As others have mentioned, it was an ease of development issue.

The original Xbox had superior versions of 3rd party games despite the PS2 obliterating it in sales.

 

[HokieJoe]

It was either that, or a 'double-pumped' cell platform IMO. They couldn't develop a completely new architecture because they had too much invested in Cell already. So, they had to decide how best to keep their BOM as low as possible while advancing 'next gen'.

All that last gen Cell work thrown in the trash:/




Perhaps he knows something we don't. Maybe he's trolling.

But his past history checks out bigtime.

 

[iceatcs]

I don't think resolution or image filter such as AA take so long time to optimise. Likely going to see the different images from each system.

I'm quite sure we won't see the different levels or higher polygon and texture sizes for each system, it will take more work to do.

 

[Can Crusher]

List wars taken to a whole new

Spoiler

low

level.

lol

Talk about missing the point. Pinning list wars on it...that console war mentality.

 

[artist]

lol

Talk about missing the point. Pinning list wars on it...that console war mentality.

Brush it off with an "lol" but people still saw through your post.

Lawd have mercy if Sony had announced 4GB, you'd be taking victory laps by now.

 

[onQ123]

All that last gen Cell work thrown in the trash:/

Maybe not!

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=23922967#p23922967

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 am

So, a couple of random things I've learned:

-It's not stock x86; there are eight very wide vector engines and some other changes. It's not going to be completely trivial to retarget to it, but it should shut up the morons who were hyperventilating at "OMG! 1.6 JIGGAHURTZ!".

-The memory structure is unified, but weird; it's not like the GPU can just grab arbitrary memory like some people were thinking (rather, it can, but it's slow). They're incorporating another type of shader that can basically read from a ring buffer (supplied in a streaming fashion by the CPU) and write to an output buffer. I don't have all the details, but it seems interesting.

-As near as I'm aware, there's no OpenGL or GLES support on it at all; it's a lower-level library at present. I expect (no proof) this will change because I expect that they'll be trying to make a play for indie games, much as I'm pretty sure Microsoft will be, and trying to get indie developers to go turbo-nerd on low-level GPU programming does not strike me as a winner.

Sounds like they sneaked the SPEs into the PS4.

 

[Can Crusher]

Brush it off with an "lol" but people still saw through your post.

Lawd have mercy if Sony had announced 4GB, you'd be taking victory laps by now.

Jesus Christ man, I don't even know what to tell you. You have issues. The poster I was responding to completely understood what I was saying.

Also don't do the whole "people" thing, you are clearly on your own.

 

[Thorgal]

I don't think resolution or image filter such as AA take so long time to optimise. Likely going to see the different images from each system.

I'm quite sure we won't see the different levels or higher polygon and texture sizes for each system, it will take more work to do.

i agree that they probably won't bother with that
altough they might, who can say at this point ?

however we could see a difference in framerate stability 60 fps locked vs 60 fps with drops during chaotic scenes .

but one true difference could be seen if to keep running at a stable fps effects like SSAO. DOF are turned off .and perhaps later in the gen even stuff like ray tracing ( unless that requirers a special chip or something in the GPU. havent followed that tech close ) .

these are things that even non hardcore gamers ( casuals) can tell whether its there or not .

would they care about it ? i don't know.

 

[artist]

Jesus Christ man, I don't even know what to tell you. You have issues. The poster I was responding to completely understood what I was saying.

Uhh, you take rumors into consideration and yet dont take the OS reserves leaks into consideration. Thats selective picking. Clearly the one who has issues is you because you tend to believe only what strokes your likes.

Also don't do the whole "people" thing, you are clearly on your own.

Am I?;

but they both have the same amount of ram, with the PS4 ram being faster. That before we even learn of the OS reserves.

Nope.

Anyway, this isnt my first interaction with you so I know which side you are coming from.

 

[Can Crusher]

Uhh, you take rumors into consideration and yet dont take the OS reserves leaks into consideration. Thats selective picking. Clearly the one who has issues is you because you tend to believe only what strokes your likes.


Am I?;

Nope.

I was comparing specs. That's what we have, OS reserves can change and until we know final OS reserves we can't compare them.

Yes you are, and it is a fact set in stone that on specs Durango doesn't have less ram, it has more. Which means stuff like level design wouldn't be affected. I also said specifically that I wasn't taking into account OS reserves because we don't know them yet. I also didn't say that those 32 MB of ram will allow for anything better.

I also said in the page previous to this one that there's a big power gap between PS4 and Durango.

Don't drag me into this whole console war bs, you are clearly invested in this shit so I won't bother with you anymore.

 

[artist]

Durango doesn't have less ram, it has more.

Could you please post this more often and in more threads? Thanks.

The RAM amount of the Xbox 3 is also only a rumor at this point. So why should we take this as "confirmed" and not the alleged amounts of reserved RAM? If we use all those values, the PS4 would have 36-50% more RAM available for games (5.0-5.5 GB vs 7.5 GB), which is significant.

Pick and choosing rumors, it's the new choice quoting.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The RAM amount of the Xbox 3 is also only a rumor at this point. So why should we take this as "confirmed" and not the alleged amounts of reserved RAM? If we use all those values for now, the PS4 would have 36-50% more RAM available for games (5.0-5.5 GB vs 7.5 GB), which is significant.

 

[i-Lo]

The RAM amount of the Xbox 3 is also only a rumor at this point. So why should we take this as "confirmed" and not the alleged amounts of reserved RAM? If we use all those values, the PS4 would have 36-50% more RAM available for games (5.0-5.5 GB vs 7.5 GB), which is significant.

Honestly, I do not know if it is safe to assume that Sony will only have 512MB reserved given the overall quantity just doubled. Perhaps, in order to react to what features XB3 will offer, the OS size may double in size as well. The OS is one volatile, highly speculative point of contention atm.

 

[Karma]

sorry but i disagree with this .

There is no reason whatsoever that if the ps4 has more power than xbox 3 devellopers won't make use of it - why limit themselves?

not even ms parity law cant stop that from happening unless they have gone insane

say for example call of duty runs on ps4 at 60 FPS locked at 1080 with more particles and effects then xbox 3 who runs the game at 40- 60 fps at sub full hd with les particles and effects .

because of the difference between the two do you realy expect MS to say they that they refuse to put the game on xbox and therefore make the game ps4/pc only and lose millions of sales and casual marketshare to sony?

If that is the case . ms might as well put the gun to their heads right now .

I am saying the difference will be small enough that it will not matter. Just like how the 360 multiplatform games are superior to PS3. Unless you have them side by side it just doesn't matter.

 

[i-Lo]

I am saying the difference will be small enough that it will not matter. Just like how the 360 multiplatform games are superior to PS3. Unless you have them side by side it just doesn't matter.

That is a lot to assume. Either case is an assumption.

 

[Karma]

That is a lot to assume. Either case is an assumption.

We will know when we see the first multiplatform games. So we will all know soon.

 

[Can Crusher]

The RAM amount of the Xbox 3 is also only a rumor at this point. So why should we take this as "confirmed" and not the alleged amounts of reserved RAM? If we use all those values for now, the PS4 would have 36-50% more RAM available for games (5.0-5.5 GB vs 7.5 GB), which is significant.

I'm not taking OS reserves for either side, it's simple. Sony nor developers talked about OS reserves, and the leaked documents didn't talk about OS reserves did they? If they did then sure, they have more weight than I was giving them.

 

[Brad Grenz]

In pretty much every conceivable use scenario the data in the 32MB pool will be, or will need to be duplicated in main memory. It is like L2 cache in that it doesn't really add capacity, instead it let's you work on a subset of your data more quickly, not different data. It is disingenuous to equate this to a capacity advantage. And even in the most optimistic appraisals that amount would be dwarfed by the difference in system reservations.

 

[ascii42]

Wat?

Xenos is the first ever consumer unified shader gpu designed by amd/ati, while rsx is a totally off the shelf gpu made by nvidia..

Couldn't have found 2 more disimilar gpus if you tried

Contrast that with today, where both xb3/ps4 are using apus with gcn gpus and 8 core x86 jaguar cpus!!!!

Never in the history of consoles have we seen two competitors with more similar architectures!!

They will probably even launch together, the first time ever for the xbox/playstation brands

First time, ps2 went first with nintendo/xbox launching together a year later

2nd time, xbox 360 went first with ps3 and wii a year behind.

Now we have the final combination, nintendo with the "first mover advantage" (luz) and xb3/ps4 launching together

Actually, the Neo Geo was similar to the Genesis, just with more power (and the capability of much bigger game cartridges).

 

[Rolf NB]

People still don't understand what buffers and can and cannot do. I see this regularly even with programmer colleagues. So here's the bullet points:

1)buffers and caches can only accelerate repeat access
2)buffering will slow down your first access, because you're doing main memory read + cache write, two operations, instead of just one main memory read
3)buffers and caches can only accelerate accesses to parts of your working set; parts that must be identified, chosen and managed wisely; using a small cache undiscerningly "for everything" will only slow things down, because the management overhead will always be there, but the gains will tend towards zero ("thrashing")

And the reality check:
If caching could solve any bandwidth problem, why is there still ongoing development to improve DRAM bandwidth?

The framebuffer is the big ticket item here. It is the most worthwhile thing to put in ESRAM, because it will fit there completely, and there will be no moving blocks back and forth within one frame.

OTOH assuming that large-data reads (texture, geometry etc) can somehow operate at greater than main memory bandwidth, when main memory is the source of the data, is total folly.

 

[onQ123]

I am saying the difference will be small enough that it will not matter. Just like how the 360 multiplatform games are superior to PS3. Unless you have them side by side it just doesn't matter.

the Xbox 360 GPU was 240 GFLOPS & the main ram was 22.4 GB/s for this to be the same situation the PS3 GPU would have to had been only 160GFLOPS & the ram would have to be 9 GB/s .



so why are people still trying to act like this is the same thing as the PS3 & Xbox 360 it's not the same.

 

[Y2Kev]

Sony reserving 512MB for the PS4 was when it only had 4GB. Perhaps they could not meet that target and that is one reason why they doubled the overall cache.

I am saying the difference will be small enough that it will not matter. Just like how the 360 multiplatform games are superior to PS3. Unless you have them side by side it just doesn't matter.

This is not meaningful to me. Unless you have Earthworm Jim Genesis and Earthworm Jim SNES side by side, you would be none the wiser that the Genesis version is hideous. The same is true of Splinter Cell Xbox vs. PS2, for example, despite the fact that the PS2 version comparatively looked like crap. The point is, I still sweat the details. What you're saying is true enough that it could be generalized for almost every scenario.

 

[RayMaker]

Some PC enthusiasts may scream at me for this, but when watching this video all settings look piratically the same?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CH_F5a_Qbj0



If PS4 was to run crysis 3 at 1080p, very high, with 4xMSAA

and durango runs crysis 3 at 1080p, high with 2xMSAA

I dont think I will be able to tell the difference.

here is a video of crysis 3 at very high settings with similar powered hardware to the rumored durango specs. With the advantage of having closed box hardware, i'am confident the durango would be able to do the same graphics settings but with at least 30fps, 1080p and better AA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJXibYSSM8

 

[Zen]

Crysis 3 doesn't scale that much between settings, at least the end result doesn't. That's not the case for many games. Crysis 3 is also over-rated visually to begin with. Really held back by having PS3/360 console ports to begin with.

 

[RayMaker]

the Xbox 360 GPU was 240 GFLOPS & the main ram was 22.4 GB/s for this to be the same situation the PS3 GPU would have to had been only 160GFLOPS & the ram would have to be 9 GB/s .



so why are people still trying to act like this is the same thing as the PS3 & Xbox 360 it's not the same.

using todays games as examples what can an extra 600gflops and faster ram really do?

If its going to be like high settings vs very high settings the difference is pretty small?

 

[KidBeta]

No official details of gcn2/tenerife.

We do know ps4 is something more than gcn 1.0, though.......whether its full blown 2.0 or something between cape verde/tenerife is anyone's guess, though -_-

GCN 1.1 + Extra High Priority Graphics Queue (which both have).

using todays games as examples what can an extra 600gflops and faster ram really do?

If its going to be like high settings vs very high settings the difference is pretty small?

It can do anything that requires extra power.

 

[ypo]

So after all these years of pixel counting and countless comparisons we are to believe the differences in multiplatform PS3/360 games don't matter? Awesome!

 

[RayMaker]

GCN 1.1 + Extra High Priority Graphics Queue (which both have).




It can do anything that requires extra power.

So for example, how do you think R* would go about making RDR2 for the PS4 and 720?

Do you think it will simply be a case of the durango version having lower res, worse AA and lower framerate,

or do you think the durango version will have a lower polycount, lower res textures and less effects as well as the sacrifices mentioned above?

 

[onQ123]

Some PC enthusiasts may scream at me for this, but when watching this video all settings look piratically the same?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CH_F5a_Qbj0



If PS4 was to run crysis 3 at 1080p, very high, with 4xMSAA

and durango runs crysis 3 at 1080p, high with 2xMSAA

I dont think I will be able to tell the difference.

here is a video of crysis 3 at very high settings with similar powered hardware to the rumored durango specs. With the advantage of having closed box hardware, i'am confident the durango would be able to do the same graphics settings but with at least 30fps, 1080p and better AA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJXibYSSM8

it's not Black & White the GPU's are GPGPU's now so 600GFLOPS of extra power can be used in all types of ways.

 

[KidBeta]

So for example, how do you think R* would go about making RDR2 for the PS4 and 720?

Do you think it will simply be a case of higher res, Better AA and better framerate,

or do you think the durango version will have a lower polycount, lower res textures and less effects as well as the sacrifices mentioned above?

Its not that simple, but with higher FLOPS and bandwidth/fillrate you will probably get higher reso effects and higher frame rates with the same effects / reso.

 

[RayMaker]

I wish someone could narrow the tech gap in layman terms and say

PS4 will be 1080p with 4xmsaa

and durango will be 1080p with 2xmsaa and few less particles

 

[Petrichor]

I wish someone could narrow the tech gap in layman terms and say

PS4 will be 1080p with 4xmsaa

and durango will be 1080p with 2xmsaa and few less particles

Durango will have longer loading times, lower resolutions, less particles - it's a gap equivalent to the xbox and the PS2 (except inverted, obviously) - assuming the rumors are true.