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[Hari Seldon]

I got knocked out once playing High School Soccer and once playing High School Lacrosse. Should they be banned? Are they any safer? Or is football just the boogeyman focused on today?

Well US and Canadian Hockey doesn't allow checking before age 13 and US Soccer recommends no heading balls before certain ages, I know my local community league bans heading balls for kids. Football at a minimum should ban tackling prior to HS. But honestly it is probably worse in HS due to the mass of the players being so much larger but the brain being about the same size.

 

[chuckddd]

What were the dangerous things you did?

Drive, drive recklessly, drive drunk, drink, smoke weed, rock climb, rock climb while drinking, unprotected sex, boating, wakeboarding, wakeboarding while drinking and smoking weed, snowboarding, snowboarding while drinking and smoking weed, etc.

 

[mr2xxx]

What data are we using to ban HS football? I understand it's an issue for pro athletes who spent a decade or two playing, from kids to pros. Is there a line to draw somewhere or is any type of head injury or repeated trauma no matter the age considered pretty serious now? And if it's any serious head injury how does that apply to other sports where they happen but with less frequency?

 

[TemplaerDude]

Drive, drive recklessly, drive drunk, drink, smoke weed, rock climb, rock climb while drinking, unprotected sex, boating, wakeboarding, wakeboarding while drinking and smoking weed, snowboarding, snowboarding while drinking and smoking weed, etc.

Those are not school activities, last time I checked.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I got knocked out once playing High School Soccer and once playing High School Lacrosse. Should they be banned? Are they any safer? Or is football just the boogeyman focused on today?

They are finding more and more that the danger in football is not in getting knocked out, or in the big highlight reel hits (though those are pretty bad) but rather in the accumulation of contact. Guys on the offensive and defensive lines who you don't associate with big hits or knock outs banging against each other's heads, necks and chests 50 times a game is simply not healthy, and I don't think there is any way to make it so without completely and fundamentally changing the entire sport.

 

[akileese]

Well US and Canadian Hockey doesn't allow checking before age 13 and US Soccer recommends no heading balls before certain ages, I know my local community league bans heading balls for kids. Football at a minimum should ban tackling prior to HS. But honestly it is probably worse in HS due to the mass of the players being so much larger but the brain being about the same size.

US Soccer actually has regulations on no heading before age 13. I definitely suffered more than a few concussions playing youth soccer so I'm not going to sit here and say it's the safest sport on the planet. I personally feel Rugby League is significantly safer than pro football while being more exciting to boot. That said, I can't find any actual medical statistics to back this up so if anyone wants to has those stats feel free to call me a moron.

 

[jackal27]

I think that the biggest thing no one really likes to talk about is the injuries.

I work with teenagers and have seen at least 3 in the last 5 years have their lives SERIOUSLY altered due to football injuries. Baseball has its share and so does soccer, but in my experience, no other sport I watch injures kids like football does.

 

[Nikodemos]

I think that the biggest thing no one really likes to talk about is the injuries.

I work with teenagers and have seen at least 3 in the last 5 years have their lives SERIOUSLY altered due to football injuries. Baseball has its share and so does soccer, but in my experience, no other sport I watch injures kids like football does.

That's because injuries in American Football (unlike many other team games) are not a bug, but a feature.

 

[Mohonky]

Just lose the stupid pads and helmets.

There are plenty of contact sports that do without that and as a result you learn to tackle in a different way.

Put someone in a full body suit and of course they are going to just launch into other. Take it off them and they have to actually learn to tackle someone without destroying themselves.

 

[Rumblebones]

Push kids into superior sports like soccer (aka real football), baseball or basketball.

 

[Mohonky]

Push kids into superior sports like baseball or basketball.

Meh.

I dont understand American sports. Its like you guys and girls have an allergy to any sport that isnt constantly stopping.

 

[The Lamp]

So what do you do for upper level play such as college or professional? With this logic you'd have to ban football as a whole.

But there are major ethical considerations with parents getting minors involved in a sport as risky as football.

 

[Nikodemos]

Meh.

I dont understand American sports. Its like you guys and girls have an allergy to any sport that isnt constantly stopping.

It's not the public that has an allergy. It's the advertisers.

 

[AkumaNiko]

OHHHHHH, what a GREAT idea. SURE, football is totally too dangerous.

Exactly my thoughts. NCAA and NFL would destroy the opposition anyway

 

[mrhyderager]

Nah keep the sport. I played it in HS and loved it. Wish I had played my senior year but quit to get a job.

Rugby doesn't get half the grief American Football does and it's crazy violent. Lots of fun to watch and play, too, imo.

High School students shouldn't be pressured into playing so perhaps that needs checked, but when we talk about professionals and their injuries it's hard for me to be too sympathetic to people making millions to play a game well into their young adulthood.

 

[grumble]

Should obviously not be funded due to brain damage risk. Government isn't supposed to fund brain damage. Don't ban it, but don't fund it and make sure people are aware.

 

[AnAnole]

Encouraging kids to play football is just as bad as if schools encoraged kids to smoke or take up drinking. Ban it.

 

[Morts]

My girlfriend is a teacher and regularly sees kids who take hits in practice or games and definitely seem out of it in class for days. Some who never seem quite the same. We've already decided we won't let our kids play.

 

[DrSlek]

i don't give a fuck if some idiot parents want to let their children give each other permanent brain damage but it shouldn't be publicly funded

especially since it's so fucking expensive

It's publicly funded?

 

[Morts]

It's publicly funded?

High school football? Yes.

 

[Kill3r7]

It's publicly funded?

Public schools are subsidized by local taxpayer money.

 

[Apt101]

I got knocked out once playing High School Soccer and once playing High School Lacrosse. Should they be banned? Are they any safer? Or is football just the boogeyman focused on today?

I highly doubt they are as traumatic considering the amount and force of contact comparatively. I don't know of any studies regarding brain trauma and those sports you mentioned on a high school level. Do you think they should be banned or limited?

I mean, we can take a moment to think about and then discuss these things like adults, or just pop off like snarky teenagers in the comment section of a YouTube video.

 

[TheSeks]

That's never going to happen.

It's already happening. Health Risks have made some parents reconsider putting their kids in the sport. It's generally the kids decision, but even in that case some parents put their footdown.

I'm all for abolishing it in the case of safety. Most other sports may have injuries, but generally not as severe.

 

[entremet]

It's not "all the players". European football has plenty of concussion issues as well. Should we ban that too?

It's really the sub concussive hits that do a number regarding CTE.

Those aren't as prevalent in soccer.

 

[Nickle]

But if soccer takes over, then the audience would be the ones receiving the brain damage.

 

[ElFly]

Why would lawsuits force shutdown? Why wouldn't it just make schools create waivers for parents to sign?

I'd be more for making it non-tackle football up until Junior year. That way they at least get two years of contact football to prepare for college, and you don't have Junior High kids playing football at 13.

I dunno how valid the waivers are gonna be in court; obvs gonna depend on the state but minors cannot have all their rights renounced by their caretakers, waiver or not

 

[NastyBook]

But if soccer takes over, then the audience would be the ones receiving the brain damage.

Savage.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

having played flag: i'm not sure why this is such a go-to suggestion; it's obviously different for the QB & receivers, but virtually nothing changes on the line, where (correct me if i'm wrong) a lot of these injuries occur

My understanding is that flag football typically doesn't have offensive or defensive linemen. After all, the entire point of flag football is that it's usually non-contact, and linemen are 100% contact. If blitzing is allowed in the non-contact form, it's usually something like "a defensive player may not cross the line of scrimmage until X seconds after the snap".

It seems like there is a contact variant that does have linemen, but there, contact is still restricted to only being able to use their hands to block the defensive linemen on their chest, which prevents a lot of the clashing of heads.

 

[LionPride]

Presumably adults can consent to the risk, like boxing.

And we're gonna act as if at this point high schoolers don't know the risk we're taking on playing a sport such as football?

But there are major ethical considerations with parents getting minors involved in a sport as risky as football.

But not soccer, a sport that has shown to also have concussion risks admittedly not as much as football, but risks all the same?

 

[Skellig Gra]

It's really the sub concussive hits that do a number regarding CTE.

Those aren't as prevalent in soccer.

True but it's still an issue that is being addressed. They don't let kids do headers anymore around here for example.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

And we're gonna act as if at this point high schoolers don't know the risk we're taking on playing a sport such as football?



But not soccer, a sport that has shown to also have concussion risks admittedly not as much as football, but risks all the same?

so we are cool with changing how we view minor consent laws as a whole? High schoolers know the risk of smoking and sex and drinking so fuck it.

Also soccer doesn't have anywhere near the risk of football. Football is inherently dangerous. There is no way to remove the "one strong, fast man crashing into another strong, fast man" element from the game that occurs on every play, 50-60 times a game.

 

[LionPride]

so we are cool with changing how we view minor consent laws as a whole? High schoolers know the risk of smoking and sex and drinking so fuck it.

Also soccer doesn't have anywhere near the risk of football. Football is inherently dangerous. There is no way to remove the "one strong, fast man crashing into another strong, fast man" element from the game that occurs on every play, 50-60 times a game.

At the age of 14-18, you know the risks involved. Straight up. Especially now. If not for their parents, then the fake attempts by the NFL. We know what we are getting into. You can educate all you want, but if someone wants to do something they will.

Studies have shown that soccer carries concussion issues, especially if they play from a young age. Headers from the age of 4 on up can mess up someone.

 

[MGrant]

It would never happen in Texas/the South. High school football is big, big money there. Not just the tickets to the games themselves, but all of the cheerleading, marching band, stadium construction, and other companies that have millions of dollars invested in the fact that half the school year will be spent on a football field somewhere. Not to mention whole cities like Southlake, Texas that are built upon having an elite, college-feeding football program.

I'm all for doing sports like we do here across the ocean, where competitive sports in school are limited to fitness activities like swimming and track, whereas most contact and team sports must be taken after school hours or off campus. But it won't happen.

 

[op_ivy]

Let's start with removing it from a part of school and into separate community leagues a la little league. All sports.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Guy's got balls. My high school sunk an unbelievable amount of money in football while our ancient textbooks were falling apart at the seams and the tile ceilings were caving in due to water leaks. First time I got a good look at just how cult-ish the environment around the sport had become over the past few decades.

 

[Vermillion]

That's never going to happen.

Right. And an article titled like that will convince no one.

 

[Mushroomer25]

The case is sound, but the fact is time will do the job for us. Sports are cultural institutions, stuff we grow up with. More kids are being kept away from tackle football by parents who have heard the horror stories. Less kids in the football ecosystem means less teen players. Combine that with a shift towards non-tackle sports, and the game dies a natural death.

The best we can do now is inform these players, and their families. Show them the research. Make education about the risks a mandatory part of the training curriculum. Leave the decisions to them. Trying to kill it now only incites anger, and defense.

 

[LionPride]

Let's start with removing it from a part of school and into separate community leagues a la little league. All sports.

Kinda hard to do. I know from personal experience that if it wasn't for the fact a school did a sport, that kid wouldn't play because they have no means of transportation. Especially if you have practices during the week and a parent who works.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

At the age of 14-18, you know the risks involved. Straight up. Especially now. If not for their parents, then the fake attempts by the NFL. We know what we are getting into. You can educate all you want, but if someone wants to do something they will.

Studies have shown that soccer carries concussion issues, especially if they play from a young age. Headers from the age of 4 on up can mess up someone.

Soccer carries concussion issues via headers mostly, or errant collisions, but it is something that can be (and has been) remedied, especially at the youth level. How exactly do you remedy this with tackle football? How do you remove the violent collisoins that are much more an inherent part of the game than in any other sport. I"m not talking just about linebackers getting trucked or receivers getting speared, I'm talking in the trenches, the lineman crashing into each other. That shit is just as bad for the human brain and body.

Also again, claiming that 14-18 year olds "know the risks" and can make reasonable decisions for themselves is simply ridiculous. We don't leave teenagers to their own devices in any other walk of life. We don't let them drink or smoke or even vote because society has deemed they aren't mature enough, but we are going to act like they can make informed and reasonable decisions on something that is going to potentially effect the qualify of their life 20-30 years down the road?

Personally, just to clarify, I am not on the side that the government needs to step in and "abolish" or ban football, but I do believe that over time, within the next couple of decades, several factors are going to lead to the decline of football in American society. It will be a domino effect. If these concussion and health issues continue, it's going to become riskier and costlier for schools to fund football programs. Sure you are going to have the diehards in places like Texas and Florida and Ohio where football is life, but that is going to severely gimp the talent pool. Great athletes will be funneled into other sports instead of automatically taking up football. The decrease in talent is going to be felt at the college and eventually pro level, to the point where the product will suffer in quality, and if this season has taught us anything, it's that the NFL isn't bulletproof. If the quality declines, people tune out.

 

[old manatee]

The science has spoken. It is wrong to let kids play tackle football. Even more wrong in places where adult are making money off of it.

 

[LionPride]

Soccer carries concussion issues via headers mostly, or errant collisions, but it is something that can be (and has been) remedied, especially at the youth level. How exactly do you remedy this with tackle football? How do you remove the violent collisoins that are much more an inherent part of the game than in any other sport. I"m not talking just about linebackers getting trucked or receivers getting speared, I'm talking in the trenches, the lineman crashing into each other. That shit is just as bad for the human brain and body.

Also again, claiming that 14-18 year olds "know the risks" and can make reasonable decisions for themselves is simply ridiculous. We don't leave teenagers to their own devices in any other walk of life. We don't let them drink or smoke or even vote because society has deemed they aren't mature enough, but we are going to act like they can make informed and reasonable decisions on something that is going to potentially effect the qualify of their life 20-30 years down the road?

When it comes to playing a sport that people know is debilitating? People as a whole will do things even if they know the risks. Regardless of age. I will maintain that by high school if a person wants to play football, let them.

 

[Morts]

When it comes to playing a sport that people know is debilitating? People as a whole will do things even if they know the risks. Regardless of age. I will maintain that by high school if a person wants to play football, let them.

Cool. But should the taxpayers subsidize it?

 

[M0nochromatic]

The science has spoken. It is wrong to let kids play tackle football. Even more wrong in places where adult are making money off of it.

Unfortunately, that matters to very few people. It's sort of like beating children. Adults who were beaten or in this case suffered injuries, grow up and think that there's no problem because they perceive themselves to be healthy and mentally stable, so there's no problem at all, anywhere, for anybody.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

When it comes to playing a sport that people know is debilitating? People as a whole will do things even if they know the risks. Regardless of age. I will maintain that by high school if a person wants to play football, let them.

Let them do it on their own time then, same if they want to box or cliff dive. There are a lot of things that are inherently dangerous that, especially for minors, the law or some kind of authority steps in and regulates and in a lot of cases, saves people from their own foolishness.

I'm sure plenty of 14-18 year olds think they know the risks, and have a real grasp on them, but they probably also think they know the risks when they drive recklessly, or text and drive, or get blackout drunk, or any other number of stupid things teenagers do because they think they are invincible, but I think any reasonable adult would tell you that you are foolish if you really believe that.

 

[LionPride]

Cool. But should the taxpayers subsidize it?

I have an answer to this, but what does it have to do with what I said?

Spoiler

My answer is no btw.

 

[iPorygon]

I think the major problem with football is how players are taught to tackle and the fact that the padding makes them feel incivincible leading to more dangerous decisions (which is even more highlighted in high school when their mind is still developing). Speaking anecdotally, the furtherest extent I was taught to tackle in junior high football was being put in a drill 1-on-1 against a ball carrier and being told to get him down, which in that situation I'm not really focused on avoiding head collisions.

As much as rugby union is given the rap of being violent (which granted it can be) I bet it's safer concussion-wise than Football due to less dangerous tackles, because they teach you how to tackle properly to avoid any head collisions and not having any padding takes out any thoughts of doing anything stupid like a headbutt.

I doubt Football will ever be fully banned in schools, it's too ingrained in the culture and for many towns it's the only part of civic pride. Unless Rugby somehow becomes a mainstream alternative to football, it's probably going to stay.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

I have an answer to this, but what does it have to do with what I said?

Spoiler

My answer is no btw.

Because this is a thread about stopping the public subsidy of playing football that exists from it being a program in public schools.

 

[LionPride]

I think the major problem with football is how players are taught to tackle and the fact that the padding makes them feel incivincible leading to more dangerous decisions (which is even more highlighted in high school when their mind is still developing). Speaking anecdotally, the furtherest extent I was taught to tackle in junior high football was being put in a drill 1-on-1 against a ball carrier and being told to get him down, which in that situation I'm not really focused on avoiding head collisions.

As much as rugby union is given the rap of being violent (which granted it can be) I bet it's safer concussion-wise than Football due to less dangerous tackles, because they teach you how to tackle properly to avoid any head collisions and not having any padding takes out any thoughts of doing anything stupid like a headbutt.

I doubt Football will ever be fully banned in schools, it's too ingrained in the culture and for many towns it's the only part of civic pride. Unless Rugby somehow becomes a mainstream alternative to football, it's probably going to stay.

Funny thing about this, I played rugby for a year and I saw Forwards get concussions in scrums because big ass dudes end up hitting each other in the head, or someone tries to truck someone and down they go. But tackling someone? Not a whole lotta concussions, because you don't tackle as if you are invincible. That whole no pad thing works in your favor. People don't have a false sense of security.

 

[Zoe]

Let's start with removing it from a part of school and into separate community leagues a la little league. All sports.

So poor kids won't be able to play sports anymore?

 

[IrishNinja]

My understanding is that flag football typically doesn't have offensive or defensive linemen. After all, the entire point of flag football is that it's usually non-contact, and linemen are 100% contact. If blitzing is allowed in the non-contact form, it's usually something like "a defensive player may not cross the line of scrimmage until X seconds after the snap".

It seems like there is a contact variant that does have linemen, but there, contact is still restricted to only being able to use their hands to block the defensive linemen on their chest, which prevents a lot of the clashing of heads.

huh, guess that's why. maybe it was just my old school back then that allowed full offense/defensive linemen to act like any other football game, that really stuck with me & totally warped how it's normally played, apparently!