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Video of clerk denying same-sex marriage

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Amir0x

Banned
Love isn't a synonym for endorsement.

If you do not fully accept something as vital as who a person chooses to love, provided it's amongst consenting adults, you're simply gross and that's not "love."

You can't label it something it's not because you read it in the Bible. The Bible has lied to you and it's actually just hate disguised as something else. That's the problem with the Bible: it allows people to shut off their goddamn brains and make completely fucking obscene choices.
 

CREMSteve

Member
The idiots filming them with their cellphones were the worst part of this for me. How these fellas can just stand there like it's no big deal, major props to them for it.

Then you have the idiots behind the counter... I hope I live to see the day when gay marriage is looked at in the same manner as racial segregation.

In other words, they're just people and they're not harming anyone, get over it.
 
I imagine they'll be afraid to get sued

They can fire her on Saturday, July 25, 2015.

If my math is correct that is when the federal transition processing period expires and lawsuits may commence against active dissenters of the Federal Marriage Equality ruling.

I think every state has 29 days to 'prepare' (aka ignore) SCOTUS' ruling before the US Attorney General will start rounding up the bigot holdouts.

I look forward to SCOTUS shooting down people using "Freedom of Religion" to justify their bigotry in ignorance of the Federal decree. I'm sure Alito, Roberts, Thomas & Scalia will stand by the bigots though. Good thing they are in the minority.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
If you do not fully accept something as vital as who a person chooses to love, provided it's amongst consenting adults, you're simply gross and that's not "love."

You can't label it something it's not because you read it in the Bible. The Bible has lied to you and it's actually just hate disguised as something else. That's the problem with the Bible: it allows people to shut off their goddamn brains and make completely fucking obscene choices.

Love does not entail such acceptance. "Hatred" is not an antonym of "agreement." Did Jesus not love the adulteress He saved from those prepared to stone her, notwithstanding His rejection of her love for a married man? Or was His rejection of who she chose to love proof of His hatred for her?
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Love isn't a synonym for endorsement.

I think you'll find that love is as much in the eye of the one being loved as the one doing the loving, which is the same reason a battered spouse might argue that their "totally won't do it again" abusive spouse doesn't love them despite his or her profession of love. I think you would also find that very few people would respond to "Love isn't a synonym for endorsement" by saying they feel loved.

But as you bring it up, I would argue that one of the reason adherents to various religions get called intolerant is in part because religion speaks rather than listens; this entire story is the story of gay people asking to be listened to and instead being talked at. And that's precisely why those on the receiving end of "love the sinner, hate the sin" to be so empty.

Love does not entail such acceptance. "Hatred" is not an antonym of "agreement." Did Jesus not love the adulteress He saved from those prepared to stone her, notwithstanding his rejection of her love for a married man? Or was his rejection of who she chose to love proof of his hatred for her?

it's difficult to say given that the Bible has a third person limited narrator and doesn't specify if the adulteress felt loved or not (or indeed whether this is a real story, or a contrived characterization designed to say something to the world).
 
It's really astounding. Separation of Church and State, except for when it concerns their opinion of God. It is so arrogant how they think they can decide if God approves their marriage or not. They should just do their job.

This kind of thing is why I stopped going to church. No one has ever provided a solid argument of why a loving God condemns 2 people loving each other who happen to be the "wrong" gender.
 

slit

Member
Okay, can someone give me an estimate on how long it's going to take to boot her to the curb?

This is getting ridiculous.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Love does not entail such acceptance. "Hatred" is not an antonym of "agreement." Did Jesus not love the adulteress He saved from those prepared to stone her, notwithstanding His rejection of her love for a married man? Or was His rejection of who she chose to love proof of His hatred for her?

It's one thing to not accept the person someone chooses to be with: say they're a hardened criminal or a abuser or treats the individual like shit. It's another thing to literally reject an entire component of a person's being, something they are born with. It's saying "the act of existing is a sin for you but I still love you anyway!"

It's hollow, callous bullshit by unthinking and insulting goons who read screeds of two thousand year old goat herders and believe it has something relevant to say on human sexuality. If you do not accept the idea of someone being gay, you're still homophobic and hateful. Saying otherwise because the Bible told you so doesn't change that fact.

You know, in between the passages where it tells you how to treat your sex slaves.
 
If she is fired, crazies will put up a gofundme and she'll get an absolute fuckload of money out of it. Probably many years worth of salary. Makes sense to ride it out.

Edit: Looks like two other people beat me to the answer.. for good reason!

So, are there enough people willing to support every single fired clerk or fined business? After a certain point, there are diminishing returns on the gofundme investment.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I think you'll find that love is as much in the eye of the one being loved as the one doing the loving, which is the same reason a battered spouse might argue that their "totally won't do it again" abusive spouse doesn't love them despite his or her profession of love. I think you would also find that very few people would respond to "Love isn't a synonym for endorsement" by saying they feel loved.

I doubt I would so find it. To the extent you're saying that love must be expressed to be love, I mostly agree. Otherwise, against your battered-spouse's-bruises-subjectively-perceived-to-be-love, I'd readily set Paul's objective description of love in 1 Corinthians any day. At least I can explain why violent behavior is not love, despite the spouse's contrary beliefs. Any parent can tell you how poorly loving direction can be taken by the person being loved, and I see no good reason to accept such a subjective conception as yours. And at the end of the day, "I reject most everything about you, but I'm going to die so you can live" is the core of Christianity for every sinner-saved-by-grace, notwithstanding how much we may love ourselves and the way we are.

But as you bring it up, I would argue that one of the reason adherents to various religions get called intolerant is in part because religion speaks rather than listens; this entire story is the story of gay people asking to be listened to and instead being talked at. And that's precisely why those on the receiving end of "love the sinner, hate the sin" to be so empty.

I'd argue that most everyone would do well to shut up and listen to those they disagree with or even dislike every now and again. I won't argue that there are not many Christians who do a poor job at loving the sinner despite hating a sin. There are, and they should do better at loving and listening.

it's difficult to say given that the Bible has a third person limited narrator and doesn't specify if the adulteress felt loved or not (or indeed whether this is a real story, or a contrived characterization designed to say something to the world).

Again, I reject your argument that we have to know how the loving conduct--which, I remind you, involved saving her life--was perceived by its recipient to know whether it was love. Likewise, I see no purpose to questioning whether the events actually transpired or are fables meant to provide moral instruction; we can discuss the events and their significance regardless (so long as you accept that some acts--like preventing a woman from being stoned to death--objectively exhibit love, and others--like beating a woman--do not). There's nothing unique about the Bible that would keep us from discussing it as we discuss all literature in the event it turned out to be a fabrication.

EDIT:

It's saying "the act of existing is a sin for you but I still love you anyway!"

Any Christian who treats the fact of being gay as a sin is wrong. Only actions, not people or characteristics, can be sinful.

As for the rest of your post, whether the teachings of Christianity are true is beyond the scope of this topic. What we're discussing is whether Christianity teaches Christians to love; and it does that, or not, regardless of whether Christianity is correct about God, the universe, or anything.
 
Wait till she finds out she doesn't have qualified immunity and is personally liable to the couple. Holy shit is that going to be a shitstorm.
 

Cyan

Banned
I love and respect Christians, I just think they should stop being Christian since it's kind of gross and wrong.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Any Christian who treats the fact of being gay as a sin is wrong. Only actions, not people or characteristics, can be sinful.

Yeah, tell a straight person that if they engage in one of the deepest human connections by having sex they are sinning and you can keep lying to yourself that you're not being a hateful shit.

You hate gay people. You hide behind the Bible to pretend you don't but you do. It's time to deal with that fact. If you're going to utilize the Bible to push abhorrent agendas, you might as well go all in. It's far more attractive then grinning in a person's face whilst you tell them to abstain in the most unnatural of ways from being who they are in perfectly healthy relationships with good people.

As for the rest of your post, whether the teachings of Christianity are true is beyond the scope of this topic. What we're discussing is whether Christianity teaches Christians to love; and it does that, or not, regardless of whether Christianity is correct about God, the universe, or anything.

No, what I'm saying has nothing to do with whether Christianity is false. Of course it's nonsense, but that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that the Bible is bullshitting to you that you can love someone whilst hating an essential part of who they are. And if you think telling them to psychologically torture themselves in order to be right with God is an expression of love, you've shut your brain completely off and you're a nasty, hateful person. And you're homophobic to boot.

I believe in not sugarcoating reality. Many religious folk want to go around saying this grotesque garbage so they can pat themselves on the back that they're not one of the "bad" Christians who advocate killing them or ousting them or whatever. But all you do is practice a more deeply troubling form of passive aggressive hatred that allows you to more easily convince yourself that you're not a terrible person. It allows this hate to live on that much longer, because it's a ledge for these homophobes to hang onto while they wink at each other.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I love and respect Christians, I just think they should stop being Christian since it's kind of gross and wrong.

Though your suggestion is facetious, this is a good analogy. Let's say that a person believes that going to church is immoral, since (the person believes) churches instill ignorance and morality is defined as what is best for conscious life, and a correct conception of the world is best for conscious life. Could that person nevertheless love the churchgoing Christian, despite opposing his or her immoral conduct? What if the person provides for the churchgoing Christian in a time of need? Would that be a sign of love? Or would we be forced to discount that act given the person's opposition to going to church?

If it matters for you in thinking about the analogy, consider the same scenario where our loving person believes that holding the beliefs prescribed by Christianity (i.e., being a Christian) is immoral, since they're false &c.
 
I love you! I just hate one of the defining, core-traits that makes you, you.

That's how fucking stupid 'love the sinner, hate the sin' sounds to me.

Morehead Kentucky is a shithole anyway, they'd do well to move to Louisville or somewhere a bit more progressive.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Though your suggestion is facetious, this is a good analogy. Let's say that a person believes that going to church is immoral, since (the person believes) churches instill ignorance and morality is defined as what is best for conscious life, and a correct conception of the world is best for conscious life. Could that person nevertheless love the churchgoing Christian, despite opposing his or her immoral conduct? What if the person provides for the churchgoing Christian in a time of need? Would that be a sign of love? Or would we be forced to discount that act given the person's opposition to going to church?

If it matters for you in thinking about the analogy, consider the same scenario where our loving person believes that holding the beliefs prescribed by Christianity (i.e., being a Christian) is immoral, since they're false &c.

Cyan's point is that the definition of love that allows for someone who is openly contemptuous of a core part of your identity on an active and ongoing basis to say they "love you" has no value at all. I don't care if someone "loves" me in that way if they're not treating me with basic dignity and respect on an ongoing basis, and although I'm not gay I feel pretty comfortable speaking for all gay people when I say they don't care about that either. Instead, why not reserve the definition of love as something that has actual... content?
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Yeah, tell a straight person that if they engage in one of the deepest human connections by having sex they are sinning and you can keep lying to yourself that you're not being a hateful shit.

You hate gay people. You hide behind the Bible to pretend you don't but you do. It's time to deal with that fact. If you're going to utilize the Bible to push abhorrent agendas, you might as well go all in. It's far more attractive then grinning in a person's face whilst you tell them to abstain in the most unnatural of ways from being who they are in perfectly healthy relationships with good people.

No, what I'm saying has nothing to do with whether Christianity is false. Of course it's nonsense, but that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that if the Bible is bullshitting to you that you can love someone whilst hating an essential part of who they are. And telling them to psychologically torture themselves in order to be right with God and you actually believe that is an expression of love, you've shut your brain completely off and you're a nasty, hateful person. And you're homophobic to boot.

I believe in not sugarcoating reality. Many religious folk want to go around saying this grotesque garbage so they can pat themselves on the back that they're not one of the "bad" Christians who advocate killing them or ousting them or whatever. But all you do is practice a more deeply troubling form of passive aggressive hatred that allows you to more easily convince yourself that you're not a terrible person. It allows this hate to live on that much longer, because it's a ledge for these homophobes to hang onto while they wink at each other.

Clarify something for me, would you? When you say "you" in the above post, do you mean, "you, Metaphoreus" or "you, abstract person to whom this comment applies"? I mean, in either event, it's clear which way the hatred flows here, but I just want to make sure I understand you.

Again, I think that your argument depends on conflating "love" with other concepts--endorsement, acceptance, agreement, whatever. In doing so, you beg the question of whether one can love another while failing-to-endorse, rejecting, or disagreeing with the other on some subject (regardless how central that subject is to the other's self-conception).

Cyan's point is that the definition of love that allows for someone who is openly contemptuous of a core part of your identity on an active and ongoing basis to say they "love you" has no value at all. I don't care if someone "loves" me in that way if they're not treating me with basic dignity and respect on an ongoing basis, and although I'm not gay I feel pretty comfortable speaking for all gay people when I say they don't care about that either. Instead, why not reserve the definition of love as something that has actual... content?

I've already agreed that, generally, love must be expressed to be love. That expression--providing for someone's essentials, providing a shoulder to cry on, sacrificing your own comfort to help make them comfortable, or similar acts (I don't mean merely saying "I love you," since talk is cheap and easily falsified)--does not depend on adopting the loved person's beliefs about the world or endorsing, accepting, or agreeing with a person's sexual orientation. So, I think you're making the same mistake as Amir0x does by begging the question of whether there is a distinction between those concepts.
 

slit

Member
Clarify something for me, would you? When you say "you" in the above post, do you mean, "you, Metaphoreus" or "you, abstract person to whom this comment applies"? I mean, in either event, it's clear which way the hatred flows here, but I just want to make sure I understand you.

Again, I think that your argument depends on conflating "love" with other concepts--endorsement, acceptance, agreement, whatever. In doing so, you beg the question of whether one can love another while failing-to-endorse, rejecting, or disagreeing with the other on some subject (regardless how central that subject is to the other's self-conception).

No you can't when it's this central to the person.

See that was easy.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Clarify something for me, would you? When you say "you" in the above post, do you mean, "you, Metaphoreus" or "you, abstract person to whom this comment applies"? I mean, in either event, it's clear which way the hatred flows here, but I just want to make sure I understand you.

I am stating an explicit hypothetical. If you, Metaphoreus, are claiming that you love a gay person despite saying that if they have gay sex they are sinning and that the best way to be right with God is to psychologically torture oneself by abstaining from perfectly natural sex between consenting adults, you're a hateful homophobe. That's a fact. There's no part of love that entails hating a central part of who someone is, unless that "central part" is something that involves hurting other people: i.e. "I enjoy killing people" or "I enjoy molesting kids."

Again, I think that your argument depends on conflating "love" with other concepts--endorsement, acceptance, agreement, whatever. In doing so, you beg the question of whether one can love another while failing-to-endorse, rejecting, or disagreeing with the other on some subject (regardless how central that subject is to the other's self-conception).

I'm not conflating anything. What you discuss is indisputably not love. It's hate disguised between colorful language meant to distract the ignorant from how gross it actually makes the person saying it.

I'm now understanding you exactly Metaphoreus. You're a homophobe, and I'll make sure to make note of that during your next discourse on same sex marriage or court rulings involving it. Just sick. Such hatred means you're not fit to discuss the subject matter in any meaningful sense.
 

Skyzard

Banned
I thought the cop did well, he gave them a chance to be seen and not kept in line, walked right up to the lady and then gave them space instantly by turning to the side.

And people can't help who they love, they probably should do something about it if there are issues but that's just being smart and not everyone is in that position and may be more dependent or crazy hooked.
 
I know my Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is employing bronze age religious tenets to deny civil rights in the United States of America in 2015.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I'm now understanding you exactly Metaphoreus. You're a homophobe, and I'll make sure to make note of that during your next discourse on same sex marriage or court rulings involving it. Just sick. Such hatred means you're not fit to discuss the subject matter in any meaningful sense.

Thank you for the clarification.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I know my Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is employing bronze age religious tenets to deny civil rights in the United States of America in 2015.

Hm, let's see here.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:27

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Corinthians 6:9

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

I don't know the Bible pretty much says deny them their lives if they sleep with other men, so that sorta seems like a civil right violation to me!
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I know my Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is employing bronze age religious tenets to deny civil rights in the United States of America in 2015.

Aha, you see--the Bible doesn't include the last bit (which I know you know). That's one of my points: Christianity doesn't really teach anything about politics or good government.

Dude, when I was spouting homophobic shit on IGN ten years ago, I would never have simply accepted the label of homophobe. I was standing up for Truth with capital T.

I only spell truth with a capital "T" when it begins a sentence. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. And I don't agree that I'm "spouting homophobic shit," but that semantic debate would take us far afield from the present topic.
 

Gradon

Member
"I love you but I want you to have less rights than me."
"I love you, but who you are as a person over something you can't control is a sin and I wish you wouldn't do it."

I've heard "hate the sin, love the sinner" a few times on GAF in LGBT related threads and I am mind blown and absolutely boggled how anyone can think that telling someone who is gay they love them after condemning who they are is "loving them".

Listen you 'loving' Christians: First of all, homosexuality, isn't a choice. Psychological torture to homosexual children and people, causes suicides. How can one live when they're told the core of themselves is wrong or that they're sinful for living their life the only way they can, >being homosexual< because that's what they are.

Do you guys just expect gay people to shut up, sit down and never pursue relationships or have sex?
 

Amir0x

Banned
"Well-ahuh hold on right there, sir! I am not a racist, no sir! I disagree with the very notion! I just wonder why so many black folk are criminals and if they can't perhaps abstain from being quite so black when they're around me!"
 
I am mind blown and absolutely boggled how anyone can think that telling someone who is gay they love them after condemning who they are is "loving them".
It is cognitive dissonance that results from being told over and over, especially when you're young that if you disagree with "God's word" you'll go to Hell.

That's what it is for many people, fear of Hell. My mother was the most loving woman I've ever met, but the fear instilled in her of God's judgment made her final months sheer agony. It is truly horrible.
 
"I love you but I want you to have less rights than me."
"I love you, but who you are as a person over something you can't control is a sin and I wish you wouldn't do it."

I've heard "hate the sin, love the sinner" a few times on GAF in LGBT related threads and I am mind blown and absolutely boggled how anyone can think that telling someone who is gay they love them after condemning who they are is "loving them".

Listen you 'loving' Christians: First of all, homosexuality, isn't a choice. Psychological torture to homosexual children and people, causes suicides. How can one live when they're told the core of themselves is wrong or that they're sinful for living their life the only way they can, >being homosexual< because that's what they are.

Do you guys just expect gay people to shut up, sit down and never pursue relationships or have sex?
Their religious belief doesn't facilitate empathy. They literally believe their internal thought process is communion with the creator of the universe. It's psychotic vanity.
 

Plasmid

Member
We had this shit going on in Mississippi for the first 5 days after the ruling, our attorney general stated that people who deny licenses can be sued in a class action lawsuit PERSONALLY, not the district, city, or clerks office, the clerk specifically. As soon as that was published we've been issuing licenses. People like this are acting like children, just sign the damn thing and move on with your life.

e:

Just read that she is being sued by the ACLU, GOOD. People like this need to be shown that your personal beliefs are not above the law.
 

jb1234

Member
Do you guys just expect gay people to shut up, sit down and never pursue relationships or have sex?

As someone who is gay and was stupidly Mormon for a while (long story), yes, that's exactly what conservative religions expect.
 

Amir0x

Banned
One of the things I love about Christianity is that we don't get to judge other people because we all fail some judgement. Judging itself is fails judgement.

That's awesome, then all Christians need to shut the everloving fuck up about their hateful ideology on gay marriage. I don't want to hear another piece of shit Christian say "hate the sin, love the sinner" a-goddamned-gain.
 

Gradon

Member
It is cognitive dissonance that results from being told over and over, especially when you're young that if you disagree with "God's word" you'll go to Hell.

That's what it is for many people, fear of Hell.

I am so glad I do not know anyone who is religious. It really sounds awful to be held down by the shackles of religions fear of Hell. Fair enough to religious freedom but if people think they can force their belief system and fear onto others via hatred then get the hell away from me.

Their religious belief doesn't facilitate empathy. They literally believe their internal thought process is communion with the creator of the universe. It's psychotic vanity.

Sigh.

As someone who is gay and was stupidly Mormon for a while (long story), yes, that's exactly what conservative religions expect.

SIGH.
I'm so sorry for you.

I am personally very happy that I don't have a relationship with a God that would condemn me to Hell for being myself.
 

jb1234

Member
SIGH.
I'm so sorry for you.

I am personally very happy that I don't have a relationship with a God that would condemn me to Hell for being myself.

Oh, it's all good. I got my revenge later on when I left the church (via a note as they continue to harass you unless it's made official) and told the homophobic preacher that I had only joined because I was in love with my Mormon friend at the time and wanted to bone him.

(It's worth noting this friend also left the church at a later date.)
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
One of the things I love about Christianity is that we don't get to judge other people because we all fail some judgement. Judging itself is fails judgement.

One of my favorite parts about Romans 1 (partially quoted by Amir0x above) is that it's quickly followed by Romans 2. You can imagine the early Christians--or, for that matter, modern Christians--nodding along as Paul lists off all the ways "they" (i.e., other people) have turned against God, silently condemning "them" with each sin listed. Then, without warning, Paul turns to the reader:

Romans 2:1-4 said:
You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?

I imagine the reader responding in shock, "Who? Me?!"
 

Amir0x

Banned
man it is some sick twisted shit that you think that scripture is some improvement. There, you tell people to believe in God so that his everlasting hatefulness can sit in judgment against perfectly normal human conditions. The implication being of course that the creator of all things even thinks you're sinning (a condition that he condemned them all to by the even more abhorrent ideology of paying for the sins of your father), and will kill you (read: torture you for eternity) lest you turn from that sin. Some sick shit to believe in this monster of a deity.
 

Darksol

Member
She'll get fired. Bigots will give her a lot of money.

This will repeat many times until people get sick of donating for the legal defence of every single bigot taken to court.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car

y'know, I've always enjoyed your posts. Well most of them, and you've never struck me as the paint with a broad brush kind of dude. In fact, you usually argue against that sort of thing, and I usually agree. Nearly always.

But here you are, talking like, well, a conservative Christian from Kentucky. I realize that, perhaps, you are being baited, but you know how to internet.

OT, of course they should fire her. She'll be a hero, or maybe not. Some clerks here in Arkansas talked about balking, and that blew over like a little popcorn fart.
 
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