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Volgarr The Viking - "Hardcore 16bit action" (Kickstarter - Funded: $39,965)
- Thread starter pa22word
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Ziophaelin
Member
We just made STAFF PICK on KS! WOOT!
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Congratulations! That'll lead you straight to goal fulfillment!
Frostman007
Member
So many great Kickstarter projects going on right now. I'm starting to lose track of all the ones that I have backed. Can't wait to see more of Volgarr, though. I can never say "no" to classic-style games.
Dreamwriter
Member
Yeah, this is the second Kickstarter campaign I've pledged for that ends the day *before* payday, it's really annoying (more in Ouya's case than this one, though). I'd bet pledges would have been higher had they waited one more day before starting it.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Sounds like it could be pretty awesome. I may give some of my hard earned scratch to this...
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Looks really solid. If I had monies to spare, I'd kick in a few bucks.
ChosenPredator
Banned
Yes, keep giving them more monies! lol This is something I would love playing on a stream, if you have a beta copy you should let someone like manvsgame stream it that would probably get people amp up to fund it to or just buy it once its fully released.
Ziophaelin
Member
Whoa! We might hit 50% in just over 1 day of being live!
You guys and gals are seriously bad ass.
You guys and gals are seriously bad ass.
Some of this will depend on testing, but our current tentative plan is to have infinite lives (further removing the need for HUD elements) but death sets you a decent amount back (back to beginning of current "map" most likely).
Length depends on how you look at it - we're aiming to put as much content as possible in there but not to the point of it becoming tedious (its totally possible to make a game like this too long), but in games like this there's a HUGE difference between "how fast is it possible to beat" and "how long will it take you to complete the first time through". In fact that's a lot of the appeal, going from a newbie that takes weeks to get through a game to a master that can speed run the game flawlessly.
Since levels are one of the things we haven't done much of yet (hence the need for funds) can't say for sure how long it will actually take to get through it either way at this point though.
Out of curiosity, how would you prefer it to be?
Ghouls and Ghost system would for the best if the game isn't long. It added a ton of replay value to those games. At least I thought so.
sounds like an easycore game. meh
Ingueferroque
Banned
Sounds like a bad idea considering the market this is aiming to. Infinite lives takes so much tension and reward out of the experience.
Personally I would much prefer a classic arcade setup of limited lives and continues.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
I think you should start with finite lives and the option to disable continues. There are many dedicated arcade gamers who would love to have a new side-scrolling romp like this one, but they'd also love to play through the game 1CC-style, and not have to deal with what are essentially progression mechanics stolen from Super Meat Boy and other games with infinite lives. Even if it was just an option, the game could benefit from having that kind of set-up. It'd be like an actual Japanese arcade game in terms of progression, which is what I assume the project's revolving around.
Ziophaelin
Member
Ah ah reminds me of Act Raiser 2
Love this game.
I find this interesting as many NeoGaffers have slammed Shinobi for its finite lives and continue system beyond Normal Difficulty. A game can be hardcore and have unlimited lives. Out of this World, Flashback and Abes Oddessey are just a very few of them. I would like to hear more of this debate for either side!
The problem is they're advertising this game as a hardcore arcade game while removing the most important aspects of arcade gaming, finite lives and the ability to "one credit play".I find this interesting as many NeoGaffers have slammed Shinobi for its finite lives and continue system beyond Normal Difficulty. A game can be hardcore and have unlimited lives. Out of this World, Flashback and Abes Oddessey are just a very few of them. I would like to hear more of this debate for either side!
I can't comment on the difficulty of Shinobi 3DS as I haven't played it yet.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Not interested. If I want a game that reminds me of "the good 'ol days," I'll play an old game. I'm constantly discovering stuff I never played from back then. But I'm sick of these games that are basically like "Hey, you remember the 90's? SO DO WE! So we made a game that's JUST LIKE THAT!" No. If you're going to make a new game, I want to see you take things a step farther than the classics or put your own spin on it somehow.
But from the little we know about this concept, it sounds like yet another neo-retro game that's content to merely ape better games from an era where developers still had some semblance of creativity when it came to 2D games.
But from the little we know about this concept, it sounds like yet another neo-retro game that's content to merely ape better games from an era where developers still had some semblance of creativity when it came to 2D games.
I find this interesting as many NeoGaffers have slammed Shinobi for its finite lives and continue system beyond Normal Difficulty. A game can be hardcore and have unlimited lives. Out of this World, Flashback and Abes Oddessey are just a very few of them. I would like to hear more of this debate for either side!
Right but those are all essentially puzzle/adventure games. The point of them is to "solve" each screen. This viking game is supposed to be an arcade-inspired action game. There's nothing to solve in these kinds of games, it's entirely leveraged on twitch gameplay. If you remove most of the tension from that I'm not sure it's going to be all that interesting.
Diablohead
Member
Looks like it will be a solid platformer, awesome !
justjustin
Member
The second the game footage started I was glad to see this is shaping up to be a sequel to one of my favorite games, Rastan Saga. It still gets frequent play these days on my Sega Astro City.
Your team is clearly well versed in action games, and picking right up where they left off. I too feel that there's a lot of life left in the arcade action genre, and it fell out of fashion too quickly. So I am glad to see more games of its kind being made.
It sounds like you are open to people's opinions, so I'd like to share with you one main aspect that makes arcade games still fun to me despite all the other videogames competing for my attention these days. In particular, I especially like it when I'm rewarded with more chances for success later on when playing skillfully in the sections I already know. Of course, the fundamental reward for mastering parts of the game is having the foreknowledge to get through them more easily the next time and reaching further points with each play. But for me, this is only minimum motivation. The problem is there's nothing new for me to work on once I've mastered the early sections of the game. If I have infinite lives, how will doing better in the earlier sections benefit my chances of survival later on? I guess it won't really matter since I can try as much as I want, and I'm afraid infinite lives would make the game more of a one-time experience. I should also say, though, that speedrunning games or clearing them with perfection for the sake of doing so does not appeal to me. I like the survival aspect of trying to get as far as possible, and I like it when near-perfection is what's merely required to get through the game at all.
In some arcade games the pattern goes like so: I play the game over and over, each time getting a higher score in parts I already know, which in turn nets me more lives, and since I can stay alive longer I get more powerful weapons for the later stages. The difference will be, for example, my first time at stage 4 I'll be scraping by with 1 life left and the most basic weapon, only to die shortly. Maybe a few weeks later I'll get to the exact same point, but instead be armed to the teeth with 5 lives, ready to tackle a bigger chunk of what's unknown to me. This lets me really see the difference in how far I've come skill-wise, and I'm better prepared for the later sections of the game which serves as further motivation for playing well. With infinite lives it would be difficult to achieve this effect, and mastering sections of the game would not yield any results except self-satisfaction. In other words, with infinite lives I feel that skillful play would not have as large of a mechanical or actual game-related impact. For me, I like it when playing well nets me big rewards and greater opportunities to continue my journey through the game. In my mind, this sort of appeal is practically exclusive to arcade games. Modern games hardly do this so effectively as arcade games.
So, sorry if this turned into a case of why I wouldn't necessarily want to see infinite lives in the game. I would just like to see some way to make the earlier stages fresh each time they're played, that's my main concern-- give the player a little something more to work on if he or she can already breeze through it. Hope this doesn't come across as inconsiderate, I just want to throw in my two cents as an avid player of arcade games.
edit: Oh, and I also want to add that length of the game would depend entirely on if we're given infinite retries or not. 40-45 minutes is preferable if we don't get to continue. It took me about three weeks to beat Rastan, giving it a few tries each days. Another game I love, Truxton (aka Tatsujin, awesome vertical shooter btw), took me three months and the game is less than an hour-- how's that for replay value! So it really depends on how awesome the stages are and how it's all structured in regards to lives/retries. I guess I like shorter more than longer for these kinds of games in general.
Your team is clearly well versed in action games, and picking right up where they left off. I too feel that there's a lot of life left in the arcade action genre, and it fell out of fashion too quickly. So I am glad to see more games of its kind being made.
It sounds like you are open to people's opinions, so I'd like to share with you one main aspect that makes arcade games still fun to me despite all the other videogames competing for my attention these days. In particular, I especially like it when I'm rewarded with more chances for success later on when playing skillfully in the sections I already know. Of course, the fundamental reward for mastering parts of the game is having the foreknowledge to get through them more easily the next time and reaching further points with each play. But for me, this is only minimum motivation. The problem is there's nothing new for me to work on once I've mastered the early sections of the game. If I have infinite lives, how will doing better in the earlier sections benefit my chances of survival later on? I guess it won't really matter since I can try as much as I want, and I'm afraid infinite lives would make the game more of a one-time experience. I should also say, though, that speedrunning games or clearing them with perfection for the sake of doing so does not appeal to me. I like the survival aspect of trying to get as far as possible, and I like it when near-perfection is what's merely required to get through the game at all.
In some arcade games the pattern goes like so: I play the game over and over, each time getting a higher score in parts I already know, which in turn nets me more lives, and since I can stay alive longer I get more powerful weapons for the later stages. The difference will be, for example, my first time at stage 4 I'll be scraping by with 1 life left and the most basic weapon, only to die shortly. Maybe a few weeks later I'll get to the exact same point, but instead be armed to the teeth with 5 lives, ready to tackle a bigger chunk of what's unknown to me. This lets me really see the difference in how far I've come skill-wise, and I'm better prepared for the later sections of the game which serves as further motivation for playing well. With infinite lives it would be difficult to achieve this effect, and mastering sections of the game would not yield any results except self-satisfaction. In other words, with infinite lives I feel that skillful play would not have as large of a mechanical or actual game-related impact. For me, I like it when playing well nets me big rewards and greater opportunities to continue my journey through the game. In my mind, this sort of appeal is practically exclusive to arcade games. Modern games hardly do this so effectively as arcade games.
So, sorry if this turned into a case of why I wouldn't necessarily want to see infinite lives in the game. I would just like to see some way to make the earlier stages fresh each time they're played, that's my main concern-- give the player a little something more to work on if he or she can already breeze through it. Hope this doesn't come across as inconsiderate, I just want to throw in my two cents as an avid player of arcade games.
edit: Oh, and I also want to add that length of the game would depend entirely on if we're given infinite retries or not. 40-45 minutes is preferable if we don't get to continue. It took me about three weeks to beat Rastan, giving it a few tries each days. Another game I love, Truxton (aka Tatsujin, awesome vertical shooter btw), took me three months and the game is less than an hour-- how's that for replay value! So it really depends on how awesome the stages are and how it's all structured in regards to lives/retries. I guess I like shorter more than longer for these kinds of games in general.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
JustJustin just brought justice to our talking points. There are plenty of ways to emulate old arcade games, but the best way to create an homage to the good 'ol days is to provide a highly-polished arcade experience that offers incentives to players willing to play with an arcade-game mentality (aka 1CC play-through). I play arcade games using that method of constantly practicing and building up my skills and memory of the game, up to the point that I can go through the whole game in my head. And, overseas at least, people play arcade games for a 1CC most of the time. This method's just very attractive to the arcade gamer, and it's the foundation of arcade culture. I also think that trying to advance classic arcade game mechanics with a modern update, while still working within an arcade framework, could really help the end product.
Very interesting! We will take these responses under SERIOUS consideration. I expected that people would no longer be willing to put up with that kind of thing these days, even the fans of the older games. I'm glad to see I'm wrong on that point.
The only reason I thought it could work out is our biggest inspiration, Super Ghouls N Ghosts. Super Ghouls N Ghosts has never been seen as an easy game, its often rated as one of the hardest games of all time, and is very much considered an arcade style game though it was never actually in an arcade.
That game did have finite lives and continues.
HOWEVER, it was set up such that it basically didn't matter. Continues did the same thing as lives, and whenever you ran out of lives, you were pretty much guaranteed to have gained just enough points that you had earned an extra continue. Thus, in essence, it had infinite lives. I have never actually run out of lives and continues even when stuck on a level dying dozens of times back when I had not yet mastered the game.
Thus I felt that you could do infinite lives when you consider how that game kills you in 2 hits, with the first hit taking away all your stuff, and when you die you have to start either the entire level or half the level over. The idea of further eliminating any kind of HUD element also appealed to me, in addition to the potential to lower complication (and potential cheating) with any kind of save system we may add. With Volgarr also being set up in a way that you can die very, very easily and go back quite far like in SGnG, I hoped it would still give that same feel.
But, again, we will take this debate under very serious consideration for the end product. Please continue to bring up any further points for or against finite lives!
EDIT: To address justjustin's point (which is excellent, BTW!), one element that adds to that and was in SGnG as well is the gear you have carrying over to the next level. Holding on to your armor through multiple levels was difficult but could also make the later levels MUCH more manageable as you had your magic spell all ready to go with your nice upgraded weapon and so on, and for many players dying (or getting hit at all really) in a later level meant start over, not worth continuing. We also have another gameplay element planned to add to that (the drive to do better in earlier levels to benefit you later) that we are not yet ready to reveal.
The only reason I thought it could work out is our biggest inspiration, Super Ghouls N Ghosts. Super Ghouls N Ghosts has never been seen as an easy game, its often rated as one of the hardest games of all time, and is very much considered an arcade style game though it was never actually in an arcade.
That game did have finite lives and continues.
HOWEVER, it was set up such that it basically didn't matter. Continues did the same thing as lives, and whenever you ran out of lives, you were pretty much guaranteed to have gained just enough points that you had earned an extra continue. Thus, in essence, it had infinite lives. I have never actually run out of lives and continues even when stuck on a level dying dozens of times back when I had not yet mastered the game.
Thus I felt that you could do infinite lives when you consider how that game kills you in 2 hits, with the first hit taking away all your stuff, and when you die you have to start either the entire level or half the level over. The idea of further eliminating any kind of HUD element also appealed to me, in addition to the potential to lower complication (and potential cheating) with any kind of save system we may add. With Volgarr also being set up in a way that you can die very, very easily and go back quite far like in SGnG, I hoped it would still give that same feel.
But, again, we will take this debate under very serious consideration for the end product. Please continue to bring up any further points for or against finite lives!
EDIT: To address justjustin's point (which is excellent, BTW!), one element that adds to that and was in SGnG as well is the gear you have carrying over to the next level. Holding on to your armor through multiple levels was difficult but could also make the later levels MUCH more manageable as you had your magic spell all ready to go with your nice upgraded weapon and so on, and for many players dying (or getting hit at all really) in a later level meant start over, not worth continuing. We also have another gameplay element planned to add to that (the drive to do better in earlier levels to benefit you later) that we are not yet ready to reveal.
If finite lives changes the way a person plays the game, I don't see how it has no place. That is akin to saying people have no business enjoying that dynamic, whether quarters are involved or not.
This may be a bad idea. Consider this very carefully for your final product.
Yeah, I guess it's true that things like difficulty have no place in the modern day gaming ethos.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
I don't fish for quarters, nor do I play arcade games through endless continues.
Perhaps finite lives and infinite lives could be married in a system similar to "grace" 1UPs from games like Mega Man and ActRaiser. Before difficult sections, those games often had a guaranteed 1UP either hidden in plain sight or put in a slightly tricky location that could be acquired with a non-zero, but still relatively low risk of death. You effectively had infinite lives on certain parts of the game, but only if you didn't get sloppy and had played the level enough to know how to acquire the extra.
Your thought process seems sound, as is your comparison to Super Ghouls and Ghosts. Do consider though that even as far as back as when it came out many people thought that the game was too easy compared to its predecessors.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
The only real question to consider here, I think, is whether the game is going to be designed for players who use the 1CC method of practicing and clearing an arcade game, or for players who would rather play a game designed to be more lenient and gradual. I think the best solution, for now, is to simply allow players to choose whether they wish to play with infinite lives and continues, finite lives and no continues, or a mixture of both.
I've seen this in the Classic Mega Man games, too. If that was a regular, albeit uncommon part of the game's level design, then the problem of designing for two different target audiences would be alleviated.
TheSpoiler
Member
Listen here, developers, and listen good.
I need these things:
Cheats. Wacky stuff.
Other modes with dumb little mini-games.
Just other modes in general. Give me other things to do in your adventure.
An option for easy mode/more continues/infinite continues. Sometimes, I just wanna beat the crap out of stuff without worry. Conversely, a hard mode for when I need to be challenged.
I know, this is a lot, but I will buy this game many times over if you buff out the bit formula and give options to all players.
I need these things:
Cheats. Wacky stuff.
Other modes with dumb little mini-games.
Just other modes in general. Give me other things to do in your adventure.
An option for easy mode/more continues/infinite continues. Sometimes, I just wanna beat the crap out of stuff without worry. Conversely, a hard mode for when I need to be challenged.
I know, this is a lot, but I will buy this game many times over if you buff out the bit formula and give options to all players.
Yeah but they don't now, I just saw it pop up in a top 10 hardest games of all time list recently, can't recall where off hand.
Now keep in mind, personally I LOVE hard games, bring it on. I make challenges for myself if the game doesn't give me enough of one - check out my YouTube channel for some examples. And, again personal attitude here, I'm not trying to please everyone. That kind of attitude leads to the mediocre crap you get that's made by focus groups. We are well aware this is a niche here, and I'm just fine with that. I know that targeting a broader group can lead to better sales, but trust me, I could make FAR more money working for one of the game companies that throws me offers every other day, but I'm living off ramen noodles because I want to make certain kinds of games and retire with my integrity intact, and by hell, that's what I'm going to do.
Now all that said, I'm not setting out to make the next "I want to be the guy" here. Yeah I want the challenge, but I want a specific type of challenge. I totally dig the points you guys are making here, its awesome to have such thought provoking arguments to mull over from many like-minded folks.
I've put a lot of thought into every aspect of this game's design to make something that captures the essence of a particular type of game experience I literally can't get anywhere any more, because the games that had that don't work any more - I've already memorized and mastered them through countless replays. Sadly, since I'll be making the game, even this one won't provide it for me much as I'll already know the levels too well, but I have to believe there are others out there like me that also want that same experience, but with new challenges they don't already know how to overcome. And its my goal to provide that.
So I guess the point I'm making here is, I have a target style of play in mind and a target difficulty, and its around the level of Rastan and SGnG and the original Castlevania. Not any harder than those, and certainly not easier. I totally get the point about doing well in the earlier levels, that's an awesome element and I'm going to give serious thought about how to do that beyond what I've already mentioned we have planned. Maybe finite lives is the best solution, but I'm not going to go for the easy answer until I've really thought hard about how exactly they provide the fun experience they do and if they are actually the best way to do it for this game. But I'm not trying to make this the hardest game ever, nor am I going to make it some watered down easysauce game just for "broader appeal." You can get that somewhere else.
Please don't take any of the above to mean I'm not interested in this great feedback and discussion! This debate about infinite lives is exactly the kind of thing I really wanted to get out of founding my own game company. I just wanted to lay it out on the table where I'm coming from in this.
Haunted
Member
Looks pretty excellent.
That said, I don't think either side would have a problem with making it optional, like having a selectable amount of continues in the options menu - 3, 5, ∞.
I Initially just wanted to argue for infinite lives because honestly, finite lives/continues [that erase all of your progress when running out] don't have a place in this day and age, even in throwback titles, especially not if they're supposed to be "reimagined for today".
That said, I don't think either side would have a problem with making it optional, like having a selectable amount of continues in the options menu - 3, 5, ∞.
Ziophaelin
Member
I'm not trying to be too pushy in one direction or not, just pointing out that when it comes to these type of game decisions they can't be taken lightly and have to be considered in the context of what the game is trying to be as a whole. But it seems you already knew that
You could always implement some sort of streamlined finite/infinite life system.
You could have it so that after X number of deaths, a penalty comes into play whether it's sending a player back to an earlier checkpoint or to the beginning of the stage, but without a continue screen. Just some small indication that you're being penalized for dying too many times. You could have some sort of visual indication that their next death will set them back such a different pallete for clothes/armor or something.
It's basically just a finite life system with infinite continues. Infinite lives isn't a bad thing as long as there is some sort of penalty for dying.
You could have it so that after X number of deaths, a penalty comes into play whether it's sending a player back to an earlier checkpoint or to the beginning of the stage, but without a continue screen. Just some small indication that you're being penalized for dying too many times. You could have some sort of visual indication that their next death will set them back such a different pallete for clothes/armor or something.
It's basically just a finite life system with infinite continues. Infinite lives isn't a bad thing as long as there is some sort of penalty for dying.
Dreamwriter
Member
Personally I like the way VVVVVV does it - infinite lives with checkpoints, and the game keeps track of how many times you die. So the first time you beat the game, you could beat it with like 500 deaths. And then you have incentive to get better and lower that amount - it turns deaths into a sort of reverse-score that doesn't need to be constantly displayed on the screen.
I understand that method gets rid of the "1CC" play, because there is no set lives/continues, but personally I've never found that sort of game mastery fun (though I *can* play Castlevania with no continues).
I understand that method gets rid of the "1CC" play, because there is no set lives/continues, but personally I've never found that sort of game mastery fun (though I *can* play Castlevania with no continues).
Reminds me of playing LttP and and then deciding you had to play it again from the start to get 000 on the last screen of the credits - but then cheating and using select to exit early when you are about to die, and regretting it later when you know you didn't really EARN that 000...
I dig the idea of showing you your death count at the end though. Its one of the points brought up in the text on the kickstarter page - the feeling that right after you beat the game, you want to play it again to improve your performance. That is one way of encouraging that.
Personally, the arguments for/against infinite lives hinge on whether or not this is a game that's played for score, or merely one that's made to be beaten. Infinite lives in a score-based game isn't really a big deal, IMO--anyone who's serious about their score isn't gonna tolerate deaths no matter how many lives they have, and anyone who doesn't care about score would just credit-feed anyway.
That being said, I don't want you to segregate different types of players into "behinner/hardcore" modes or whatever--one mode, one ruleset.
That being said, I don't want you to segregate different types of players into "behinner/hardcore" modes or whatever--one mode, one ruleset.
Ziophaelin
Member
^ This, nice observation.
You can hope that vikings are the next zombies and you guys won't be out of work for a long time.
AcceptableGhost
Member
I think we have the worst post that is going to come from this thread right here.
Ziophaelin
Member
That depends I guess on if the trend goes this way...
Or this way...
... dammit... now I have to figure out how to include a raging viking cat. So much awesome.
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