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[JustenP88]

He obviously should have just had one kid and then this wouldn't be an issue. I don't see why people struggle to see how the additional taxes could be a burden on many. There are net benefits for many as well. Demonizing people that would be adversely impacted, like unable to afford their mortgage, by the greater taxes is unfair though

The costs of having a family and a mortgage and whatnot would be, to an extent, offset by the programs these taxes are intended to fund. This isn't a situation where you look at that chart and extrapolate that you'll be whatever number you see in the hole.

Also, I'd hope that wages would start increasing soon, given the inevitable raise to the minimum and the fact that employers are no longer doing us the great service of providing relatively affordable health insurance as a benefit. I would hope that people these days aren't too shy to argue that the complete disappearance of the employer-to-employee compensation of health insurance should be made up through some other means (ideally through wages).

 

[dragonelite]

Looks like on average $90/month for a employer that is single.
If i'm not mistaken children are covered by the parent insurance here in
the Netherlands.

Does bernies plan also use the employer part to finance uhc?

 

[SlimySnake]

You make it seem like going to college is a right everyone has (which sounds a lot like bernie...)

Wow. Who said anything about it being a right? The guy worked his ass off to be able to afford sending his kids to college. he isnt asking for handouts. He pays his fair share of taxes while supporting a family of five, paying mortgage and sending his kids to college.

What you are saying is that he should pay MORE TAXES at the expense of his mortgage, cars for kids just so bernie can give his college base free college education.

 

[NotBacon]

ITT: People looking at tax increases and having a knee jerk reaction, without realizing many people will actually be saving money.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Your number includes out of pocket spending. The number Kaiser has (which is lower but from 2012) says, "Health expenditure includes the provision of health services, family planning activities, nutrition activities and emergency aid designated for heath, but excludes the provision of water and sanitation."

Oh yeah thanks for reminding me I spent about $1000 on prescription drugs last year.

 

[SeanR1221]

ITT: People looking at tax increases and immediately responding, without even looking at the savings in healthcare costs.....

Not me. I have amazing insurance that's super cheap.

 

[Lothar]

So basically what we learned in this thread was that the republicans were right all along.

 

[God Dayumm]

For who? You? not for the vast majority of the population. There is a handy dandy graph earlier on which confirms my point up to the top quintile.

You mean this one?

It confirms my point. Individual tax increase is close to the premiums in that graph. I know you think the employer will pass their theoretical savings on the employee. But they will not because whatever money they save in healthcare costs they will pay even more in the form of tax on their revenues

 

[Marty Chinn]

Guess what these taxes pay for (college and healthcare). Also living outside of your means is not a good excuse.

Eh? He has three kids in college now. Those taxes, if they went into affect while his kids are in college are very unlikely to pay for college immediately. So he'd be paying the taxes without any of the benefit as far as school is concerned. So he'd still be on the hook for college and his taxes would go up. He was likely living within his means at the time but the sudden hike in taxes now burdens him way beyond what he had before. You can't say that suddenly dropping him with an extra $1200 a month bill is suddenly his fault for not living within his means.

 

[ElfArmy177]

Ummm fuck you Bernie. I like how the article says middle fifth of Americans. WTF does that mean? 20% of americans?

Exactly I fall in this category. Fuck you Bernie and your fucking ignorant tax plan.

 

[besada]

So my taxes would go up $9000/year when I currently pay $4654/year for Medical with no copays.

This is will hurt my family a lot.

I think I just hopped off the Bernie train if this is true. My family income (family of 3) is ~$110,000.

And your kids would go to college free. Do the math. Last I checked, average tuition for four years was $90,000 -- and that assumes full payment, not what actually happens, which is a heavy interest bearing loan. So you're looking at $270,000 assuming college tuitions don't go up (and they will).

In addition, when you or a spouse loses your job at some point (and you will) your rates won't double via COBRA, and you'll still have complete medical care for your children.

And, in your old age, your kids won't have to drain themselves paying for your medical bills, and you won't have to choose between prescriptions or food if you didn't plan your finances successfully.

And your children will never know the fear of losing their health insurance if they lose a job, or the horror of medical bankruptcy because someone they love gets cancer and they try to keep them alive.

Personally, that's the kind of world -- one that already exists for the vast majority of industrialized nations -- that I'd like to live in, rather than the one we have, where you can't leave a job if you have health issues, people who need mental health care can't afford it and run around shooting people in the streets, and a significant part of the population simply can't afford to educate themselves into a better life.

I honestly don't care if anyone votes for Bernie. I'm reasonably certain he can't win, and if he did none of this would ever pass. But at some point, we as Americans are going to have to decide whether what we have is good enough for ourselves and our children, and make changes, even if it involves temporary pain.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Yikes, this is too much. I lean to the left, but not the point where half of my paycheck vanishes.

 

[Mael]

The costs of having a family and a mortgage and whatnot would be, to an extent, offset by the programs these taxes are intended to fund. This isn't a situation where you look at that chart and extrapolate that you'll be whatever number you see in the hole.

Also, I'd hope that wages would start increasing soon, given the inevitable raise to the minimum and the fact that employers are no longer doing us the great service of providing relatively affordable health insurance as a benefit. I would hope that people these days aren't too shy to argue that the complete disappearance of the employer-to-employee compensation of health insurance should be made up through some other means (ideally through wages).

Minimum wages may be too low in the US so I can't comment on how much you would have to raise it for it to be at the right amount (the stuffs I've seen would mean that people would have to get more than 1job which is all kinds of BS, one of my neighbors was having 2 jobs and that's not near healthy or even doable on the long term).
However increase to the minimum wage past a certain point have adverse effects and don't do anything but to put more people in the barrier of minimum wage.
Again from what I've seen the minimum wage seems criminally low in the US.

 

[ElfArmy177]

Is NOONE understanding this? What about the Americans who ALREADY went to school and have a ton of student loans?????? Now we have student loans AND crippling taxes on top of it???

 

[Walpurgis]

Increasing income taxes that much on those who make $40k and under is very stupid. Those people should pay nothing as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't want their broke ass money.

However, the tax plan for people who make $10 million seems much more reasonable than Clinton's.

 

[Dice]

Looks beautiful. What a great man.

 

[ATF487]

It confirms my point. Individual tax increase is close to the premiums in that graph. I know you think the employer will pass their theoretical savings on the employee. But they will not because whatever money they save in healthcare costs they will pay even more in the form of tax on their revenues

You don't think they'd rather spend that money on employees to reduce their taxable earnings?

 

[DragonSworne]

What stops our taxes from continuing to raise as the cost of healthcare raises? Premiums increase ~%5 a year. Can we expect to get the same increase in our taxes?

Premiums are going up for a reason and that isn't going to stop just because we start paying for premiums using our taxes instead.

 

[JustenP88]

Minimum wages may be too low in the US so I can't comment on how much you would have to raise it for it to be at the right amount (the stuffs I've seen would mean that people would have to get more than 1job which is all kinds of BS, one of my neighbors was having 2 jobs and that's not near healthy or even doable on the long term).
However increase to the minimum wage past a certain point have adverse effects and don't do anything but to put more people in the barrier of minimum wage.
Again from what I've seen the minimum wage seems criminally low in the US.

I'm not advocating for an insane raise to the minimum wage. I'm saying that a rise to the minimum, plus the fact that employers are no longer paying for your healthcare as part of your compensation, should provide enough bargaining power to justify a decent increase in wages for people in the middle class.

People keep scoffing at the idea of employers passing a portion of the health insurance savings they'll realize onto their employees. Employers who want to stay competitive are going to sweeten the deal by making up for the dip in benefits with some other type of compensation. Employers who don't will struggle to compete for quality employees.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

This is why I am voting Clinton. I like Bernie as a person he has great ideas but those ideas will never pass congress and he will be eatten alive in the General.

 

[Officerrob]

ITT: People looking at tax increases and having a knee jerk reaction, without realizing many people will actually be saving money.

Something that needs further explanation doesn't get a second chance with most Americans

 

[Kickz]

Is there not enough wealth in the top 1% to cover all of the taxes for people making less than 60k?

 

[Lothar]

I love the rich people in this thread with thousands of dollars laying around going "Sounds good to me" and then talking about the selfishness of others.

 

[HK-47]

And this is why Americans can't have nice things and why social democratic policies wouldnt work.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Is NOONE understanding this? What about the Americans who ALREADY went to school and have a ton of student loans?????? Now we have student loans AND crippling taxes on top of it???

In a perfect world, you'd be able to get a rebate to apply to your student loan. Realistically, some people are going to have to get burned in the short term for improvement over the long term. It sucks on an individual level, but I think some people are going to have to be hit if we're going to move forward at all.

 

[JohnsonUT]

And your kids would go to college free. Do the math. Last I checked, average tuition for four years was $90,000 -- and that assumes full payment, not what actually happens, which is a heavy interest bearing loan. So you're looking at $270,000 assuming college tuitions don't go up (and they will).

In addition, when you or a spouse loses your job at some point (and you will) your rates won't double via COBRA, and you'll still have complete medical care for your children.

And, in your old age, your kids won't have to drain themselves paying for your medical bills, and you won't have to choose between prescriptions or food if you didn't plan your finances successfully.

And your children will never know the fear of losing their health insurance if they lose a job, or the horror of medical bankruptcy because someone they love gets cancer and they try to keep them alive.

Personally, that's the kind of world -- one that already exists for the vast majority of industrialized nations -- that I'd like to live in, rather than the one we have, where you can't leave a job if you have health issues, people who need mental health care can't afford it and run around shooting people in the streets, and a significant part of the population simply can't afford to educate themselves into a better life.

I honestly don't care if anyone votes for Bernie. I'm reasonably certain he can't win, and if he did none of this would ever pass. But at some point, we as Americans are going to have to decide whether what we have is good enough for ourselves and our children, and make changes, even if it involves temporary pain.

Beautiful.

 

[DragonSworne]

In a perfect world, you'd be able to get a rebate to apply to your student loan. Realistically, some people are going to have to get burned in the short term for improvement over the long term. It sucks on an individual level, but I think some people are going to have to be hit if we're going to move forward at all.

Or Bernie can not be an asshole and forgive our loans.

 

[Meier]

My wife and I owed money this year since we got bumped into the next bracket up this year compared to last. Kind of sad to go from a $2,000 return to owing $400. I can't imagine paying that much more in tax -- we would get hit pretty hard by this since our health insurance is already covered by our employer (valued at around $600 a month each which seems totally insane by the way) so there would be no corresponding benefit. I pay about $60-70 a month for dental and vision plus some life insurance, etc.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I love the rich people in this thread with thousands of dollars laying around going "Sounds good to me" and then talking about the selfishness of others.

Maybe I am reading it from a different perspective but it seems like the people making 100k+ are the ones complaining.

 

[besada]

What stops our taxes from continuing to raise as the cost of healthcare raises? Premiums increase ~%5 a year. Can we expect to get the same increase in our taxes?

Premiums are going up for a reason and that isn't going to stop just because we start paying for premiums using our taxes instead.

Premiums will always go up when you have a for-profit health care system. Capitalist markets charge what the market will bear.

More to the point, UHCs are generally (as in every single country in which they exist) significantly cheaper than the U.S. health system, which spends more than twice as much than any other industrialized nation per capita for health care.

 

[Damaniel]

I'm actually tentatively supportive of this, even though his chart shows my tax burden going up by $10k per year. That said, I'd be personally be screwed over in a couple ways:

- My employer provided insurance cost me $800 last year, and even with 2 emergency room visits, an ambulance trip, surgery, 10 physical therapy sessions and a year of anti-seizure meds, my total non-premium outlay was just over $700. Convincing people with good employer provided insurance to give that up and pay higher taxes to get the same thing will be a hard sell in conservative America, even among Democrats.

- If my employer is freed of the need to pay insurance premiums, that doesn't magically mean they're going to pass those savings onto me. They absolutely won't, and anyone who thinks they will has never worked for a company big enough to actually offer health insurance (or is plain naive).

The decoupling of insurance from employment alone makes this idea worth considering to me. I don't want to feel obligated to work for a company I dislike just to ensure I'm always covered by insurance. That said, selling this will be really hard - telling people they'll be worse off financially after the plan is implemented will drown out any observation that the net benefit to society would be increased. If you thought Mondale got whipped by Reagan, Bernie running on that platform would result in a Trump win by margins that make the 1984 election results look close. My otherwise very progressive co-worker saw this story while he was at lunch and outright said that he could no longer support Bernie as long as he held to this level of taxation.

This kind of stuff needs to be incremental - gradual implementation of Medicare for all wouldn't require such drastic tax hikes all at once, which would be much more palatable to the general electorate.

 

[Euphoria14]

And your kids would go to college free. Do the math. Last I checked, average tuition for four years was $90,000 -- and that assumes full payment, not what actually happens, which is a heavy interest bearing loan. So you're looking at $270,000 assuming college tuitions don't go up (and they will).

In addition, when you or a spouse loses your job at some point (and you will) your rates won't double via COBRA, and you'll still have complete medical care for your children.

And, in your old age, your kids won't have to drain themselves paying for your medical bills, and you won't have to choose between prescriptions or food if you didn't plan your finances successfully.

And your children will never know the fear of losing their health insurance if they lose a job, or the horror of medical bankruptcy because someone they love gets cancer and they try to keep them alive.

Personally, that's the kind of world -- one that already exists for the vast majority of industrialized nations -- that I'd like to live in, rather than the one we have, where you can't leave a job if you have health issues, people who need mental health care can't afford it and run around shooting people in the streets, and a significant part of the population simply can't afford to educate themselves into a better life.

I honestly don't care if anyone votes for Bernie. I'm reasonably certain he can't win, and if he did none of this would ever pass. But at some point, we as Americans are going to have to decide whether what we have is good enough for ourselves and our children, and make changes, even if it involves temporary pain.

I currently can save around $5,000-$6,000/year. That would basically go right out the window. I also have 2 cars that are 2001 models with over 150,000 miles of them, so throw new car out the window since I couldn't save.

The money I can save today would already cover my daughters college, which is at least 12 years away. So $4,500 hike for 12 years. Public college is $50,000?

For 4 years I wouldn't even pay that to go to StonyBrook.

So after breaking my ass to go from a stock room position to a production planner and my wife to break her ass to go from a Petco employee to a LPN who is working on her RN so we can buy a home and provide our child with stability, we should risk our current mortgage, ability to buy new cars which we will soon need and my child's after school programs because I somehow owe it to someone else instead?

 

[ugaboga232]

You mean this one?



It confirms my point. Individual tax increase is close to the premiums in that graph. I know you think the employer will pass their theoretical savings on the employee. But they will not because whatever money they save in healthcare costs they will pay even more in the form of tax on their revenues

There is a ton more to healthcare spending than premiums, per-capita cost is 9500 and given the plan premiums adds up to around 7000 thats a lot more in deductibles/drugs/etc. They will save more money.

Wow. Who said anything about it being a right? The guy worked his ass off to be able to afford sending his kids to college. he isnt asking for handouts. He pays his fair share of taxes while supporting a family of five, paying mortgage and sending his kids to college.

What you are saying is that he should pay MORE TAXES at the expense of his mortgage, cars for kids just so bernie can give his college base free college education.

His fair share? We can argue about that but its probably higher than what it is now. And his college base has to be absolutely stupid to think the free college benefits themselves

Eh? He has three kids in college now. Those taxes, if they went into affect while his kids are in college are very unlikely to pay for college immediately. So he'd be paying the taxes without any of the benefit as far as school is concerned. So he'd still be on the hook for college and his taxes would go up. He was likely living within his means at the time but the sudden hike in taxes now burdens him way beyond what he had before. You can't say that suddenly dropping him with an extra $1200 a month bill is suddenly his fault for not living within his means.

True, I was being overly harsh but the fact is that he makes a lot of money, sometimes people have to sell a car or rent instead of owning a house.

 

[God Dayumm]

You don't think they'd rather spend that money on employees to reduce their taxable earnings?

The point is that under Bernie business owners will be taking home less even if they don't have to pay for their employees' healthcare anymore. There are no savings to be reimbursed to the employee

 

[GameAddict411]

First of all, I don't think everyone should get free college tuition. I have seen plenty of spoiled brats that come in class the first couple of weeks and get the financial aid money and then drop the classes. I have also seen people get worthless degrees and paid tons of money for them, but to be later be shelved. I won't be paying taxes for these idiots.

Second of all, Sanders is delusional to say the least. His plans are as realistic as boogeyman under your bed when you sleep. It's not fucking happening considering how much resistance Obama had with his butchered health plan. Hell, Hillary's plan is unrealistic in this political climate.

Third of all, these hiked tax rates don't guarantee free health and free education for all. Some people here are already taking it for granted and are running an unofficial PR for Sanders lol.

 

[Crosseyes]

This is why America will need another type of financial catastrophe before more change can be made. It took the great depression with a lot of lives being destroyed or lost for people to want to look out for their neighbor because so many finally found themselves there.

It will happen again, and hopefully America can finally make the right change.

 

[Lothar]

Maybe I am reading it from a different perspective but it seems like the people making 100k+ are the ones complaining.

Even if that was true, do you really think most people who make 34k to 64k can afford a additional $5,000 bill? (If I'm reading that chart correctly) That seems like a selfishly crazy idea to believe.

 

[Meier]

It seems odd that as a percentage of income, it's only until you get to the top 1% that there is a major difference in the tax increase. You would think someone (or a couple) making $35k a year would get hit with a smaller increase percentage wise than someone making $500k.

 

[ugaboga232]

Even if that was true, do you really think most people who make 34k to 64k can afford a additional $5,000 bill? (If I'm reading that chart correctly) That seems like a selfishly crazy idea to believe.

You save more on healthcare, these tax increases aren't for a giant space puppy.

 

[silvermember]

I am a fairly intelligent person. Those numbers will never fly with the general public. This is like heading the conservatives a free November victory.

The general public likes easy thing, they don't like to be explained stuff and republicans can easily spin this to make it look horrible. This goes back to my issue with Bernie, his plan requires too much cooperation to be viable in this political climate.

At this stage, I am looking for a gamekeeper not a revolutionary.

 

[Lothar]

You save more on healthcare, these tax increases aren't for a giant space puppy.

I pay $60 a month on health care. That doesn't add up to $5,000.

 

[fester]

I love the rich people in this thread with thousands of dollars laying around going "Sounds good to me" and then talking about the selfishness of others.

Rich people willing to pay more so that their fellow Americans can have a better shot at healthcare and education? You'd have to contort reality in a ridiculous way to reach your conclusion.

And yeah, you can lump me in with those "rich bastards" who say they'd be willing to pay more taxes to ensure their kids don't have to worry about corporate-sponsored healthcare anymore.

 

[ugaboga232]

I am a fairly intelligent person. Those numbers will never fly with the general public. This is like heading the conservatives a free November victory.

The general public likes easy thing, they don't like to be explained stuff and republicans can easily spin this to make it look horrible. This goes back to my issue with Bernie, his plan requires too much cooperation to be viable in this political climate.

At this stage, I am looking for a gamekeeper not a revolutionary.

Well yea hes not even gonna get the nomination and the political atmosphere is a whole other ball game which i 100% agree with you.

 

[pgtl_10]

I notice Vox hates Bernie with a passion. All they do is present one hit piece after another.

 

[Meier]

You save more on healthcare, these tax increases aren't for a giant space puppy.

I don't get your analogy, but I'd imagine the very large majority of people (men especially), do not go to the doctor at all or have any health care costs in most years. Certainly nothing approaching that cost. I've been to the doctor twice in the last 5 years and it was just for a check up and to get a consult on a wrist injury that I later had an x-ray on. Most families without children probably have very little to no healthcare costs during most years.

Even at my old job where I paid a lot more than my employer provided health care, I was spending something like $150 a month on my base health insurance which would be $1,800 per year out of my check. There are very few scenarios where a healthy person could approach anything resembling a benefit from this. It's a hard sell even for Democrats.

 

[God Dayumm]

First of all, I don't think everyone should get free college tuition. I have seen plenty of spoiled brats that come in class the first couple of weeks and get the financial aid money and then drop the classes. I have also seen people get worthless degrees and paid tons of money for them, but to be later be shelved. I won't be paying taxes for these idiots.
.

I just want to go a little off-topic here. But if admission and scholarship requirements become more strict then you won't have the first problem. And the second problem is solved if the schools limit the budgets of those departments so that they will be forced to limit the numbers of students that can enroll. Basically budget rules all and this can be regulated.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

An extra 9 grand a year gone from people making 100k a year?

I don't think I like that. 100k a year isn't a ton of money in a household of 4.

But supposing a universal healthcare system, you wouldn't be paying for insurance any more.

 

[boiled goose]

People have debt and mortgages to pay, and families to feed. $4000-9000 is significant. It means not being able to make a house payment.

I can see tens of millions of people having to default on current mortgages just from tax hikes alone.

If you have a family you are paying around that much in healthcare already...

 

[besada]

I currently can save around $5,000-$6,000/year. That would basically go right out the window. I also have 2 cars that are 2001 models with over 150,000 miles of them, so throw new car out the window since I couldn't save.

The money I can save today would already cover my daughters college, which is at least 12 years away. So $4,500 hike for 12 years. Public college is $50,000?

For 4 years I wouldn't even pay that to go to StonyBrook.

If all your kids are going to in-state public schools, it's probably not a benefit to you, assuming you overlook the rest of the posts content.

And again, for people like you, who make twice the median household income, it's more of a trade-off than a benefit. It's a huge benefit to the half of the country that isn't as well off.

 

[ugaboga232]

I pay $60 a month on health care. That doesn't add up to $5,000.

You have an absurdly good healthcare plan that costs your employer a ton. You may get hosed if your employer doesn't pass on any of the savings and instead passes on their payroll taxes which is where the 5000 comes from.