Support NeoGAF

[RoboFu]

Yes, sir.

 

[f~N_CH_1:3:3:3_SushiBoat]

I think the add on is the best way to go at this point. The people who want them can get them.

Whats old, is new.

 

[GoldenEye98]

I mean isn't this expected...?

Neither Sony or Microsoft are moving away from AMD so I don't really see why it wouldn't be the case...

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

No reason to believe MS makes another console in the traditional sense.
That ship has sailed.


I am on team "I'll believe it when I see it"

 

[ZehDon]

The 360 did not use nvidia hardware. It used the Ati/Xenos GPU. The PS3 and original Xbox did use nvidia.

I stand corrected. Sorry, had it filed away in my mind that it was the 360 that used Nvidia for some reason.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

I still think an open xboxpc hybrid works. As steam consumers are price sensitive, therefore gamepass plus whatever msft software working with an npu could work. Nextbox could just offer pc prices in its own area (unless it's tied to gfw environment ). Next gen could get worse for developers without big pockets.

 

[KeplerL2]

But yeah, if I have BC and Windows access I'm sold.

You can't have both.

 

[Punished Miku]

You can't have both.

A closed console has no chance for Xbox. Open store is their only play really. If they're even considering a closed console after all their Play Anywhere talk, open store talk, forward compatibility talk, windows Xbox UI update, and the ROG presentation, then I dont even know what lol. You'd be better off getting a ROG and a Series S for your BC. That would be dead on arrival even for a niche audience. It really doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[mayham2199]

I don't think anyone is expecting a massive seller but I'd imagine 25m plus is a more realistic target that they can reach.

35million Gamepass subscribers currently tells us Xbox still has a decent market share and as for exclusives I think it's fair to assume timed console exclusives are still very much on the agenda.

Yea I do think 20-25m is more a long the lines of what Xbox is looking at for next gen.

A closed console has no chance for Xbox. Open store is their only play really. If they're even considering a closed console after all their Play Anywhere talk, open store talk, forward compatibility talk, windows Xbox UI update, and the ROG presentation, then I dont even know what lol. You'd be better off getting a ROG and a Series S for your BC. That would be dead on arrival even for a niche audience. It really doesn't make any sense to me.

I think MS is just content with keeping the console base they have. Phil also said they aren't trying to out console Sony and Nintendo so with that in mind it makes perfect sense. It's a console that will sell to the loyal core and they are fine with that while they transition to full 3rd party and growing elsewhere.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yea I do think 20-25m is more a long the lines of what Xbox is looking at for next gen.

I think MS is just content with keeping the console base they have. Phil also said they aren't trying to out console Sony and Nintendo so with that in mind it makes perfect sense. It's a console that will sell to the loyal core and they are fine with that while they transition to full 3rd party and growing elsewhere.

Well that would be a total let down. Guess we'll see.

 

[bitbydeath]

I still think an open xboxpc hybrid works. As steam consumers are price sensitive, therefore gamepass plus whatever msft software working with an npu could work. Nextbox could just offer pc prices in its own area (unless it's tied to gfw environment ). Next gen could get worse for developers without big pockets.

What are you envisioning here when you say the word "hybrid"?

For example, let's say they make a "hybrid", two operating systems, asked to pick one on launch.

One is guaranteed to stay around and offer multiple stores with cheaper prices, and the other is Xbox.

Outside of BC why would anyone ever buy anything from Xbox?

And in that same vein, why would MS provide continuous support for an OS nobody uses?

There's a lot of holes in this "hybrid" theory.
Emulation would be the only worthwhile thing to salvage from Xbox.

 

[AREYOUOKAY?]

the meltdowns were coming form Xbox people. they were concerned about not being able to play their game library.

I purchased a Series X to play disc games and they completely abandoned making them just about. It doesn't give us much faith in future systems with their store presence being reduced to nothing.

 

[nashman]

To steam or not to steam? That is the question. With all First party on PS5 and 6 they kinda have to but then that hurts Xbox marketplace, so damn if they do damned if they dont. The answer? tying access to steam to to being a gamepass member is my guess.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Non backwards compatible consoles is the new normal, Sony led the charge for this the moment the ps4 couldn't play ps3 games. Microsoft has to figure out how to have a backwards compatible console without raising the price too high.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

What are you envisioning here when you say the word "hybrid"?

For example, let's say they make a "hybrid", two operating systems, asked to pick one on launch.

One is guaranteed to stay around and offer multiple stores with cheaper prices, and the other is Xbox.

Outside of BC why would anyone ever buy anything from Xbox?

And in that same vein, why would MS provide continuous support for an OS nobody uses?

There's a lot of holes in this "hybrid" theory.
Emulation would be the only worthwhile thing to salvage from Xbox.

If they have enough content in theory they could sell keys. Price all of their games at 80 and sell from their store for 50-60. However they are not there yet in content.

 

[bitbydeath]

If they have enough content in theory they could sell keys. Price all of their games at 80 and sell from their store for 50-60. However they are not there yet in content.

I'm not sure what you mean in terms of how a "hybrid" would work?

 

[adamsapple]

Non backwards compatible consoles is the new normal, Sony led the charge for this the moment the ps4 couldn't play ps3 games. Microsoft has to figure out how to have a backwards compatible console without raising the price too high.

You realize Sony rolled that back for PS5, which has full PS4 backwards compatibility, right my AI friend?

 

[KeplerL2]

A closed console has no chance for Xbox.

The alternative is a >$1000 console because they can't sell at a loss.

 

[Deerock71]

I don't believe shit.

 

[Darsxx82]

You lost me right there. if tje option for Steam exists, then gamers will migrate towards Steam.

The Windows store is absolute crap for PC Gaming. The games on there have issues, virtually no modability and they generally aren't as stable as the Steam/GOG versions.

That stuff matters to PC gamers. The only people who might be inclined to stick to Xbox Store on PC are those who are already there.

Maybe you should have given the rest a chance to understand...

I respect that some people might disagree, but we're not talking about a PC environment, nor the Windows Store VS Steam.

We're talking about competing with a console environment and users adapted to that environment, where they have the game catalog already acquired, where there are features with a lot of engagement, and where the Xbox store works great. Add to all this the fact that it should be the place where games run best on that hardware vs. the unoptimized PC version.

And I emphasize, of course, that there would be users who would go to Steam, but I think the majority of users would stay in the simpler, more familiar place where the best-optimized games are.

We'll see.

 

[Negotiator101]

Yea I do think 20-25m is more a long the lines of what Xbox is looking at for next gen.

I think MS is just content with keeping the console base they have. Phil also said they aren't trying to out console Sony and Nintendo so with that in mind it makes perfect sense. It's a console that will sell to the loyal core and they are fine with that while they transition to full 3rd party and growing elsewhere.

Completely agree, it's the smart move actually expanding on what devices can house Gamepass instead of concentrating on a console that can't complete globally with PS.

A high-end console produced for the hardcore is needed, while other ways to play on Gamepass with as many devices as possible for the mainstream market will continue to grow that lucrative Gamepass revenue stream.

As of now as we saw at the recent showcase not every game had the PS logo so I'd say timed exclusives are still on the table for certain games.

 

[Daniel_Mallorca1985]

 

[jm89]

But yeah, if I have BC and Windows access I'm sold.

You can't have both.

 

[Baemono]

Good that backwards compatibility is ensured for next gen, otherwise Xbox player won't be able to play Redfall, the (probably) only console exclusive that will remain exclusive

 

[Astray]

Good that backwards compatibility is ensured for next gen, otherwise Xbox player won't be able to play Redfall, the (probably) only console exclusive that will remain exclusive

In 2 years we will get 3 hour YouTube videos telling us how it was such an overlooked gem.

 

[Kvally]

 

[Punished Miku]

Pretty much

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

I'm not sure what you mean in terms of how a "hybrid" would work?

I'm more concerned about the business side of it. Either way works for me pc or console.
As I still have my hardware to finish games from older gen's.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

To steam or not to steam? That is the question. With all First party on PS5 and 6 they kinda have to but then that hurts Xbox marketplace, so damn if they do damned if they dont. The answer? tying access to steam to to being a gamepass member is my guess.

That would be a major lawsuit. MS is stupid enough to try it.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Completely agree, it's the smart move actually expanding on what devices can house Gamepass instead of concentrating on a console that can't complete globally with PS.

A high-end console produced for the hardcore is needed, while other ways to play on Gamepass with as many devices as possible for the mainstream market will continue to grow that lucrative Gamepass revenue stream.

As of now as we saw at the recent showcase not every game had the PS logo so I'd say timed exclusives are still on the table for certain games.

These always crack me up, because they have been doing this non-stop for years now and it what has it gotten them?

Two things:

Spoiler

Jack and Shit. And Jack already left town

 

[Negotiator101]

These always crack me up, because they have been doing this non-stop for years now and it what has it gotten them?

Two things:

Spoiler

Jack and Shit. And Jack already left town

35 million subs is not jack shit as you put it, it's hard to have meaningful debates on here with clowns posting nonsense all the time.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

35 million subs is not jack shit as you put it, it's hard to have meaningful debates on here with clowns posting nonsense all the time.

Its even harder having who rational conversations with people who have ignored years of data, non-existent console sales and non-significant growth in a service, but pretend that somehow despite all of that, it will lead to anything significant.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I think you're overestimating Steam's traction in an environment where the simplest, most accessible, and most convenient option for users is to stay within the ecosystem they've been tied to for years or decades, where there are advantages and features they're comfortable with... and where the best version of a given game is available.

If we're talking about closed, customized hardware where MS makes DevKit and tools available to developers and studios... there's little doubt that this version of the Xbox Store will be preferable to the typical unoptimized PC version, which isn't the typical plug-and-play version.

From here, time will tell. First, we'd need to know the method and difficulty with which MS would provide access to Steam or other stores.

Well, one thing I'll admit is that the probability of Steam OS overtaking Windows for PC gaming outright, is like 5%. If we're speaking to the totality of PC gaming, then it was never a realistic bet. Steam OS itself is a derivative of Linux, which last I checked had between 2.5% - 5% of the total PC OS market. Considering that, Steam OS probably has at best 1% of the total PC OS market, but that depends a lot on if Linux is at 5%.

However, and I think this is the real reason Microsoft are pushing for the initiative now, it's not actually so much about what Steam OS can do in chipping away Windows market share in general. It's probably not even so much about what it can do in terms of bringing over more PC gamers, at least not directly. I think it's more down to what Steam OS can do for both larger Linux adoption for gaming and weening PC devs away from middleware, SDKs, and APIs that Microsoft own and control in the PC OS space.

Because even if Linux isn't the immediate benefactor of that per se, if more devs start treating Vulkan as a viable API alternative for game support and optimization, then that puts a risk at more PC gamers leveraging open aspects of that platform to self-install Vulkan APIs for use in their PC games. If more games open up to non-MS middleware, APIs and SDKs, then that potentially makes them more receptive to, say, Apple's middleware, APIs and SDKs for game dev & compatibility on MacOS.

And if there's a company that can go toe-to-toe with Microsoft in money and pushing a mass-market general devices ecosystem, it's Apple. In fact, considering iPhones & iOS, Apple have an advantage in the consumer arena. I think MS's main concerns are that, if they don't do anything to make Windows a genuinely good-enough option for PC gaming that people choose as a desired choice (instead of out of legacy obligation or because there's no other realistic alternative), then things like Steam Deck & Steam OS can kick off a chain of effects that eventually benefit much bigger players outside of Windows, who COULD get the support & put in the effort to make their own stuff a viable alternative, and get it out to market at mass scale matching or exceeding Microsoft's capabilities.

I think Microsoft's real concern here is Apple; Valve is more a convenient excuse to get the ball rolling on an initiative for Windows PC gaming. Though, they could also be (rightfully) worried that Valve could turn into another Sony for them, i.e a company Microsoft in theory has resources many times over to topple in a given space, but hubris & bad decisions led to them losing to the perceived smaller threat long-term. Unlike console gaming though, Microsoft does actually have some sort of home court advantage with PC gaming, with DOS and Windows. And while Valve have Steam, Steam's largest install base segment are on Windows machines.

In any case it's going to be really interesting to see how all of this develops.

 

[Punished Miku]

You can't have both.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Well, one thing I'll admit is that the probability of Steam OS overtaking Windows for PC gaming outright, is like 5%. If we're speaking to the totality of PC gaming, then it was never a realistic bet. Steam OS itself is a derivative of Linux, which last I checked had between 2.5% - 5% of the total PC OS market. Considering that, Steam OS probably has at best 1% of the total PC OS market, but that depends a lot on if Linux is at 5%.

However, and I think this is the real reason Microsoft are pushing for the initiative now, it's not actually so much about what Steam OS can do in chipping away Windows market share in general. It's probably not even so much about what it can do in terms of bringing over more PC gamers, at least not directly. I think it's more down to what Steam OS can do for both larger Linux adoption for gaming and weening PC devs away from middleware, SDKs, and APIs that Microsoft own and control in the PC OS space.

Because even if Linux isn't the immediate benefactor of that per se, if more devs start treating Vulkan as a viable API alternative for game support and optimization, then that puts a risk at more PC gamers leveraging open aspects of that platform to self-install Vulkan APIs for use in their PC games. If more games open up to non-MS middleware, APIs and SDKs, then that potentially makes them more receptive to, say, Apple's middleware, APIs and SDKs for game dev & compatibility on MacOS.

And if there's a company that can go toe-to-toe with Microsoft in money and pushing a mass-market general devices ecosystem, it's Apple. In fact, considering iPhones & iOS, Apple have an advantage in the consumer arena. I think MS's main concerns are that, if they don't do anything to make Windows a genuinely good-enough option for PC gaming that people choose as a desired choice (instead of out of legacy obligation or because there's no other realistic alternative), then things like Steam Deck & Steam OS can kick off a chain of effects that eventually benefit much bigger players outside of Windows, who COULD get the support & put in the effort to make their own stuff a viable alternative, and get it out to market at mass scale matching or exceeding Microsoft's capabilities.

I think Microsoft's real concern here is Apple; Valve is more a convenient excuse to get the ball rolling on an initiative for Windows PC gaming. Though, they could also be (rightfully) worried that Valve could turn into another Sony for them, i.e a company Microsoft in theory has resources many times over to topple in a given space, but hubris & bad decisions led to them losing to the perceived smaller threat long-term. Unlike console gaming though, Microsoft does actually have some sort of home court advantage with PC gaming, with DOS and Windows. And while Valve have Steam, Steam's largest install base segment are on Windows machines.

In any case it's going to be really interesting to see how all of this develops.

Right now, I'd say it's far less than that. The reason is the lack of nvidia support. If nvidia got behind Linux gaming and started delivering drivers that can rival Windows performance, at that point I'd argue you will start seeing some movement. At the moment, nvidia drivers are arguably the best they have ever been in Linux, but there is still a performance penalty.

Nvidia is the one group that could influence the move to Linux.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Right now, I'd say it's far less than that. The reason is the lack of nvidia support. If nvidia got behind Linux gaming and started delivering drivers that can rival Windows performance, at that point I'd argue you will start seeing some movement. At the moment, nvidia drivers are arguably the best they have ever been in Linux, but there is still a performance penalty.

Nvidia is the one group that could influence the move to Linux.

Interesting. Are there technical reasons why Nvidia doesn't provide decent drivers for Linux on par with Windows, or is it financial?

If it's financial, hopefully it's not because they're being "compensated" for ignoring driver optimizations for Linux platforms.

 

[Topher]

So are we going to see Asus, Lenovo and HP branded "Xbox" consoles?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So are we going to see Asus, Lenovo and HP branded "Xbox" consoles?

Better question do we see different levels of performance in said "consoles" from those manufacturers?

 

[Topher]

Better question do we see different levels of performance in said "consoles" from those manufacturers?

Wait wait wait.....are we saying the Asus "Xbox" could have different configurations than the Lenovo "Xbox" beyond just a Series S vs a Series X? Different RAM size/speed and storage configurations?

 

[IntentionalPun]

I really don't think calling PC"s "Xbox" works alongside an actual console.

But MS is fucking terrible at naming/marketing so who knows WTF they are going to do?

In the end I always thought they'd do another traditional XBox though. Even if they only sell ~30-40 million or something it's still a worthwhile.

Converting Xbox gamers to PC gamers playing PC's branded "Xbox" is going to lose them a ton of revenue as people will quickly find Steam is superior and that paying for online access is not something you need to do on PC.

Like what is the point of GaemPasss "Ultimate" their costly SKU if they get rid of the home console in their lineup and it's all just PCs?

 

[KeplerL2]

Eh, it's not really Windows still. We have to see how far this 3rd party store integration goes.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Interesting. Are there technical reasons why Nvidia doesn't provide decent drivers for Linux on par with Windows, or is it financial?

If it's financial, hopefully it's not because they're being "compensated" for ignoring driver optimizations for Linux platforms.

Its a chicken and egg thing. There aren't enough Linux users to justify the extra effort.

AMD gets around this by making their drivers open source. Something nvidia won't do.

 

[Moriarty1889]

If this is true then does it also mean it will have a disc drive to support BC games at a 'Hardware Level'? All gens compatible as it looks like they are saying?

 

[adamsapple]

If this is true then does it also mean it will have a disc drive to support BC games at a 'Hardware Level'? All gens compatible as it looks like they are saying?

One can hope. An add-on solution could also be viable.