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[Brakum]

I love hardcore modes but to me they have a problem. Outside of the obvious roguelikes, games just aren't designed with permadeath in mind and instead just put it as a game mode that isn't any different from the main experience except that when you die you die.

My problem is that i don't really want to replay games. I want to jump straight in to hardcore. But you'll just die very easily if you don't know the game yet, like you're expected to die to bossfights usually. So making your first playthrough on hardcore is no good. I'm okay with dying don't get me wrong, but i'd like a hardcore game to just be focused on you being always prepared and never let your guard down, instead of you already having to know the enemies. I guess i like the realism in those types of games.

I just started to play kingdom come, i really wanted to explore that world, it was the main appeal to me, i didn't really want to actually play the game to be honest. I ended up refunding it but when i started it i saw it had a hardcore mode and i thought cool i think i'm gonna play this, i don't care if i finish the game, just see how far i can get, and occasionally i'd just come back to try again. I would enjoy this immensely. But i googled if the game had bossfights and yes it does so it just wasn't worth it when i was most likely by default just gonna have my run ended at every boss, possibly multiple times because i could die fast and not even see everything the boss does.

I understand that most people don't want this but is anyone out there that would like to play games like that?

 

[LordOcidax]

If you only care about the game being HARDCORE and don't have any problem with the graphics, you have almost 50 years of catalog to choose. I recommend you to start with NES games for a real HARDCORE experience.

 

[SJRB]

I just started to play kingdom come, i really wanted to explore that world, it was the main appeal to me, i didn't really want to actually play the game to be honest. I ended up refunding it but when i started it i saw it had a hardcore mode and i thought cool i think i'm gonna play this, i don't care if i finish the game, just see how far i can get, and occasionally i'd just come back to try again. I would enjoy this immensely. But i googled if the game had bossfights and yes it does so it just wasn't worth it when i was most likely by default just gonna have my run ended at every boss, possibly multiple times because i could die fast and not even see everything the boss does.

So you want hardcore but not that hardcore?

Kingdom Come offers exactly what you want, permadeath and everything. You could've at least tried it before refunding. What's the problem?

 

[RoboFu]

Sounds like you want to play this...

 

[Killjoy-NL]

So, you want the risk of permadeath without any risk of dying?

 

[Brakum]

So you want hardcore but not that hardcore?

Kingdom Come offers exactly what you want, permadeath and everything. You could've at least tried it before refunding. What's the problem?

i dont want hardcore in the strict sense of the word. Just in what it refers to as a game mode which is just synonymous with permadeath. Some are easy, some are hard. I think both are fine, but i dont like it hard in the way that it often is hard, because more often than not it's not even hard, it can be easy but it expects you to know the game already and that's what i dont like.

 

[T8SC]

Embrace it.

 

[Brakum]

So, you want the risk of permadeath without any risk of dying?

No. I want the risk of dying. I don't want the guarantee of dying unless i already know the game in and out. like the kingdom come example i gave, i would have played hardcore if it didn't have bosses. and im sure everyone playing the game has died outside of bosses, multiple times. And i would expect to die there too, but i would die and probably know okay i died because i was too greedy or i didnt pay attention or things like that. Unlike in a bossfight where i would just die and the only way for me to not have died wouldn't realistically have been to have done something different, but i just would have to know the boss in advance.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I think you should have said "ironman modes" instead of "hardcore modes".

Check out stuff like XCOM or Mount & Blade, or just google ironman mode.

 

[BlackTron]

I first read it as "we need true hardcore gamers" and my palms got sweaty for a second. I thought I was actually needed for something important for a change!

 

[Brakum]

I think you should have said "ironman modes" instead of "hardcore modes".

Check out stuff like XCOM or Mount & Blade, or just google ironman mode.

I know what ironman mode is. It's essentially the same thing. Ironman mode is used more in strategy games where it disables your ability to save scum. Other games usually just call it hardcore.

 

[BlackTron]

Game difficulty is like an art and science. Most of the time, it isn't that serious. They don't have to pay that careful attention to it. It was a bigger deal in the past, when we wanted to be sure a game could be completed using all of the resources it gave you without necessarily being a savant, but not your first playthrough either. Now that we have saves, you can just fail and get 3 lives at your last save again. Mario Wonder was made the same way as World -individual levels of ideas pasted together, not as a cohesive game that needed to be beatable in one sitting, like 3.

So I find it kind of eye-rolling to make games harder or easier, just by changing lives, tacking on iron man challenge, adjusting damage stats, it's a superficial way to make it "hardcore". They certainly can make sense, but it starts with how difficult the core game design is. Some games designed to be easily beaten with infinite saves/start overs would be utterly brutal with Iron Man. Others designed without a save feature offer a healthy challenge with everything the game gives you to complete it, like SMB3, no handicaps needed.

 

[Hypereides]

Of modern games, I recently played "Steel assault" which comes packed with a ballbusting arcade mode. Seems like that may fit the description. The bosses have static and predictable patterns.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

I love hardcore modes but to me they have a problem. Outside of the obvious roguelikes, games just aren't designed with permadeath in mind and instead just put it as a game mode that isn't any different from the main experience except that when you die you die.

My problem is that i don't really want to replay games. I want to jump straight in to hardcore. But you'll just die very easily if you don't know the game yet, like you're expected to die to bossfights usually. So making your first playthrough on hardcore is no good. I'm okay with dying don't get me wrong, but i'd like a hardcore game to just be focused on you being always prepared and never let your guard down, instead of you already having to know the enemies. I guess i like the realism in those types of games.

I just started to play kingdom come, i really wanted to explore that world, it was the main appeal to me, i didn't really want to actually play the game to be honest. I ended up refunding it but when i started it i saw it had a hardcore mode and i thought cool i think i'm gonna play this, i don't care if i finish the game, just see how far i can get, and occasionally i'd just come back to try again. I would enjoy this immensely. But i googled if the game had bossfights and yes it does so it just wasn't worth it when i was most likely by default just gonna have my run ended at every boss, possibly multiple times because i could die fast and not even see everything the boss does.

I understand that most people don't want this but is anyone out there that would like to play games like that?

You sound like you don't know what you want

 

[Brakum]

You sound like you don't know what you want

elaborate

 

[HRK69]

The funny thing is, you can make any game as hardcore as you want just by setting your own rules. That's exactly how no death and no hit runs in Souls games came about

 

[Felessan]

No. I want the risk of dying. I don't want the guarantee of dying unless i already know the game in and out.

Basically you want a very easy and mentally non-demandiing game but with the risk of dying.
Go back to 80-90' catalogue, there are plenty.

 

[Nonehxc]

If you only care about the game being HARDCORE and don't have any problem with the graphics, you have almost 50 years of catalog to choose. I recommend you to start with NES games for a real HARDCORE experience.

This man speaks truth.

I guess all the Git Gud crowd didn't experience the massive punishment that was playing 80s games. And it shows.

I filed my teeth through countless platformers in the 80s , so I'll be excused if I don't find HARDCORE games nowadays all that hardcore and appealing, when I just want to have a good time and not be challenged to madness.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

elaborate

Because you want to combine contradictory features to make a game tailor made to your needs, and want those features to turn on or off only when it will give you the most fun, but you don't seem to know exactly when and how you'll get the most fun because what you want doesn't exist in the first place because it wasn't tailored to your needs...

 

[Brakum]

This man speaks truth.

I guess all the Git Gud crowd didn't experience the massive punishment that was playing 80s games. And it shows.

I filed my teeth through countless platformers in the 80s , so I'll be excused if I don't find HARDCORE games nowadays all that hardcore and appealing, when I just want to have a good time and not be challenged to madness.

i played those games. Not really what im looking for. Just because i like hardcore modes doesn't mean the genre doesn't matter. I like in in combination with exploration, like open worlds, crafted or randomly generated. Don't care about it in linear campaigns.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Embrace it.

That's ptsd inducing!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Consequences are the next great area to explore in gaming.

The market desperately craves them.

 

[Brakum]

Because you want to combine contradictory features to make a game tailor made to your needs, and want those features to turn on or off only when it will give you the most fun, but you don't seem to know exactly when and how you'll get the most fun because what you want doesn't exist in the first place because it wasn't tailored to your needs...

i dont want the features to turn on or off. I just want pure hardcore games and i guarantee you if someone made one that i would work exactly how i'm describing it. You wouldn't have bossfights in the middle of the game that you're just expected to know in advance, otherwise you die. The problem is those games im talking about are not games that were made to be purely hardcore games. They were made as softcore games and had a hardcore mode slapped on top of it. Being expected to die multiple times at bossfights works in roguelikes because the runs are 30min to 1h.

And im saying i would want a game like that, im not saying kingdom come should change it's hardcore mode to remove the bosses or anything.

 

[BlackTron]

Consequence are the next great area to explore in gaming.

The market desperately craves them.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

i dont want the features to turn on or off. I just want pure hardcore games and i guarantee you if someone made one that i would work exactly how i'm describing it. You wouldn't have bossfights in the middle of the game that you're just expected to know in advance, otherwise you die. The problem is those games im talking about are not games that were made to be purely hardcore games. They were made as softcore games and had a hardcore mode slapped on top of it. Being expected to die multiple times at bossfights works in roguelikes because the runs are 30min to 1h.

And im saying i would want a game like that, im not saying kingdom come should change it's hardcore mode to remove the bosses or anything.

It seems to me you want a PvP survival open world type game but want the PvP to be PvE. Because thats the only way videogames enforce punishment on death and you have to be constantly on your toes without respite and without bossfights because of the human danger element.

 

[MrKainobi]

I just started to play kingdom come [..] But i googled if the game had bossfights and yes it does so it just wasn't worth it when i was most likely by default just gonna have my run ended at every boss, possibly multiple times because i could die fast and not even see everything the boss does.

KCD has no real boss fights in the traditional sense. They're special from a story perspective but use the same fighting mechanics as anyone else in the world. The game is pretty much what you're asking for. A sandbox with all mechanics and rules laid out from the start that every actor in the world is bound by. There are no surprises or custom patterns to memorize.

 

[Radical_3d]

If you only care about the game being HARDCORE and don't have any problem with the graphics, you have almost 50 years of catalog to choose. I recommend you to start with NES games for a real HARDCORE experience.

You don't know what hardcore is until you've tried that Gremlins II game.

Splitting men from daisies since 1991.​

 

[ozz ex machina]

This might be one of the dumbest posts I've ever read.

 

[IAmRei]

If you only care about the game being HARDCORE and don't have any problem with the graphics, you have almost 50 years of catalog to choose. I recommend you to start with NES games for a real HARDCORE experience.

i found one in sega, even by using emulator save state, still hard...
.

gynoug sega megadrive, ugh...

 

[MrRibeye]

How to achieve OP's request:

1. Start off with the numbers-based dynamic difficulty system from Resident Evil 4 to modify enemy aggression, damage/health numbers, and resource availability based on the player's performance.

2. Add the enemy equipment adaption system from Metal Gear Solid 5 to force players into using new strategies. (Enemies start wearing helmets if you do too many headshots etc).

3. Use the AI Director from Left 4 Dead to create moments that bring the player to the brink of death by relying on composition of enemies and level choke points, rather than bosses that require prior knowledge.

This way you can craft a singleplayer experience that feels hardcore to players of varying skill levels. Now please somebody do this, as it hasn't been done before. Thanks.

 

[AJUMP23]

I want more easy games that respect a man with kids and a family with a full time job.

 

[StereoVsn]

I think you should have said "ironman modes" instead of "hardcore modes".

Check out stuff like XCOM or Mount & Blade, or just google ironman mode.

Europa Universalis IV in Ironman should fit OP's requirements! Don't worry OP, you will only lose terribly for the first couple hundred hours.

 

[Cakeboxer]

I want more easy games that respect a man with kids and a family with a full time job.

90% of the games are already on normal beyond easy and this is coming from a guy who is absolute trash in Souls games. They better don't fill games with hours of brainless dialogues and cutscenes.

 

[Griffon]

OP just wants a roguelike. There's plenty on Steam, in every genre.

Permadeath in normal games is dumb and quickly loses its luster after you died once.
While it's funny to watch streamers play wow with permadeath, doing it yourself instantly gets tedious and dumb.

At best, you do a permadeath run on a game you've already beaten normally before. Not on a first run.
Or, you know, just play a roguelike, a game that's actually designed around the concept.

 

[Deerock71]

It would be funny if you died the game bricked your PC/console. HARDCORE!

 

[cireza]

A hardcore game where you never lose.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Chill edgelord! For real though play any old console. NES, Turbo Grafx, Neo Geo, etc.

 

[Humdinger]

No, I really dislike rouge-likes or games that have permadeath. I feel like I'm wasting my time.

It's interesting how different people play games for different experiences. Some people play for the challenge. That's never been me. I like a little challenge - if it's too easy, it's boring. But I don't intentionally seek out challenging or difficult experiences in videogames. I have enough of them in real life, thank you. I play videogames for story, immersion, fun, exploration, and interesting (but not overly difficult/complex) combat. I don't want to devote too much mental energy to videogames. They are a leisure pursuit to me, not a challenge to overcome.

But different strokes, though.

 

[p_xavier]

Embrace it.

And it was all due to bad programming.




I generally hate difficult games with a passion. I play games for lore and story, not for a challenge.

 

[Brakum]

OP just wants a roguelike. There's plenty on Steam, in every genre.

Permadeath in normal games is dumb and quickly loses its luster after you died once.
While it's funny to watch streamers play wow with permadeath, doing it yourself instantly gets tedious and dumb.

At best, you do a permadeath run on a game you've already beaten normally before. Not on a first run.
Or, you know, just play a roguelike, a game that's actually designed around the concept.

I do play a lot of roguelikes. But i want hardcore games with a world to explore. Valheim was great on hardcore but again it's a game you have to know already, but hardcore wasnt a thing when it launched so i knew it. Hardcore wow was even better than vanilla wow for me which i thought was impossible. Those dont quite fit the bill of what i'm asking but i want a loooooong game that is hardcore and has exploration, not just quick runs

No, I really dislike rouge-likes or games that have permadeath. I feel like I'm wasting my time.

It's interesting how different people play games for different experiences. Some people play for the challenge. That's never been me. I like a little challenge - if it's too easy, it's boring. But I don't intentionally seek out challenging or difficult experiences in videogames. I have enough of them in real life, thank you. I play videogames for story, immersion, fun, exploration, and interesting (but not overly difficult/complex) combat. I don't want to devote too much mental energy to videogames. They are a leisure pursuit to me, not a challenge to overcome.

But different strokes, though.

I dont feel like i'm wasting my time if i'm enjoying the game. My enjoyment doesn't come from simply finishing games. If i die in a game after 50h and my progress is reset, if i had fun those 50 hours then i don't feel like it was wasted. And i would have a lot more fun in those 50 hours in hardcore than i would otherwise. I enjoy being focused on a game and non hardcore modes dont really require it. Even games like dark souls, sure i'll pause the video on my second monitor during boss fights but outside of that it's not that engaging that i need to focus on the game 100%

Also and this is just a fact, you might not mind and that's fine, it's personal preference, but it is a fact. It's that hardcore modes are usually the only way you're playing the game how it's intended. Like i'm sure most people completely ignore game mechanics until they are needed. Why do all the vendors exist in rpgs? Just for you to sell stuff? Ideally not, but you're never gonna spend gold until the late game because dying is meaningless. Are you ever gonna waste gold and mats upgrading low level gear? Unlikely because dying is meaningless and you don't really need to do it. But when the threat of dying is real, you will engage with all the games mechanics from the start. The entire game starts at level 1 in hardcore, it doesn't in softcore.

 

[rofif]

We need less. Games seem so tryhard difficult nowadays. Just because no life streamers play everything on hard doesn't mean it's good game design.
Looks to me like games are made for streamers which so no represent real audience.

Dark souls was considered difficult boom for gaming. But it was also very fair and well designed. Not every game can be or should be dark souls

 

[_Ex_]

i'd like a hardcore game to just be focused on you being always prepared and never let your guard down

Three that come to mind that are unlikely older than you are:

Multimedia | Brandish: The Dark Revenant

Brandish: The Dark Revenant is an action dungeon crawler for the Sony PSP and Vita. From Falcom and Xseed games.

www.brandishpsp.com

I enjoyed beating all of those, they fit your criteria.

 

[Kasane89]

lol at thinking that roguelikes and rpgs in general are hardcore

 

[Brakum]

Three that come to mind that are unlikely older than you are:

Multimedia | Brandish: The Dark Revenant

Brandish: The Dark Revenant is an action dungeon crawler for the Sony PSP and Vita. From Falcom and Xseed games.

www.brandishpsp.com

I enjoyed beating all of those, they fit your criteria.

hardcore mode means when you die your save game get's deleted. Dark souls is not that.

 

[Brakum]

lol at thinking that roguelikes and rpgs in general are hardcore

i didnt say rpgs were, i said i would like one that is, some have hardcore modes, diablo has it, kingdom come has it etc. And since obviously you aren't aware of the naming, hardcore mode means perma death so yes every roguelike is that.

 

[_Ex_]

hardcore mode means when you die your save game get's deleted. Dark souls is not that.

I thought the OP said he wanted the threat of that but not actually that. I don't know, his post was word salad to me man.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I think MrRibeye nailed what OP is looking for.

Sounds like OP wants a full-length (i.e., not roguelike) game that has permadeath, but is easy enough to not die, but also challenging enough not to get boring. That is razor-thin margin to ride, and would realistically require the sort of on-the-fly algorithmic player-tailored experience Ribeye listed.

 

[Humdinger]

I dont feel like i'm wasting my time if i'm enjoying the game. My enjoyment doesn't come from simply finishing games. If i die in a game after 50h and my progress is reset, if i had fun those 50 hours then i don't feel like it was wasted. And i would have a lot more fun in those 50 hours in hardcore than i would otherwise. I enjoy being focused on a game and non hardcore modes dont really require it. Even games like dark souls, sure i'll pause the video on my second monitor during boss fights but outside of that it's not that engaging that i need to focus on the game 100%

That makes sense. As long as you're enjoying the game, it's not a waste of time. To clarify, it's not (for me) about wanting to finish games. It's more about the repetition involved and the sense that I'm not moving the story forward, just repeating levels I've already played. I want to feel like I am making progress and moving the story forward, not having to retread the same terrain over and over. For me, that would feel like reading several chapters of a novel, then going back and rereading those chapters before moving forward. I might appreciate some things on the second pass that I didn't on the first, and I might absorb the material better, get "better" at reading it somehow, but I'm not going to do that.

Just my preference. It's good that you enjoy rouge-likes, permadeath, and the like. Everyone has different tastes, and those games certainly have their audience.

Also and this is just a fact, you might not mind and that's fine, it's personal preference, but it is a fact. It's that hardcore modes are usually the only way you're playing the game how it's intended. Like i'm sure most people completely ignore game mechanics until they are needed. Why do all the vendors exist in rpgs? Just for you to sell stuff? Ideally not, but you're never gonna spend gold until the late game because dying is meaningless. Are you ever gonna waste gold and mats upgrading low level gear? Unlikely because dying is meaningless and you don't really need to do it. But when the threat of dying is real, you will engage with all the games mechanics from the start. The entire game starts at level 1 in hardcore, it doesn't in softcore.

I agree that you have to understand and utilize more of the game mechanics in hardcore mode - because you have to, in order to survive. I could see how, from your perspective, that is how you get the most out of a game - the "optimal" way to play, from that perspective.

However, I don't agree that it's a "fact" that this is the way the game is "intended" to be played - unless we're talking about intentionally hardcore, permadeath rouge-likes. With "normal" games, if developers' intention was for the game to be played in hardcore mode, that is what they would make the default or perhaps the only choice. But instead, they offer a range of difficulty options, with normal being default and easy or hardcore being options, so that gamers with different tastes and priorities can experience the game the way they want to, rather than be constrained by what others consider an optimal experience. People want different things out of gaming, after all, like I mentioned before, and not everyone considers the experience you describe to be optimal. Optimal for you, maybe, but not optimal for others.

 

[John Bilbo]

SHMUPS

 

[Brakum]

That makes sense. As long as you're enjoying the game, it's not a waste of time. To clarify, it's not (for me) about wanting to finish games. It's more about the repetition involved and the sense that I'm not moving the story forward, just repeating levels I've already played. I want to feel like I am making progress and moving the story forward, not having to retread the same terrain over and over. For me, that would feel like reading several chapters of a novel, then going back and rereading those chapters before moving forward. I might appreciate some things on the second pass that I didn't on the first, and I might absorb the material better, get "better" at reading it somehow, but I'm not going to do that.

Just my preference. It's good that you enjoy rouge-likes, permadeath, and the like. Everyone has different tastes, and those games certainly have their audience.



I agree that you have to understand and utilize more of the game mechanics in hardcore mode - because you have to, in order to survive. I could see how, from your perspective, that is how you get the most out of a game - the "optimal" way to play, from that perspective.

However, I don't agree that it's a "fact" that this is the way the game is "intended" to be played - unless we're talking about intentionally hardcore, permadeath rouge-likes. With "normal" games, if developers' intention was for the game to be played in hardcore mode, that is what they would make the default or perhaps the only choice. But instead, they offer a range of difficulty options, with normal being default and easy or hardcore being options, so that gamers with different tastes and priorities can experience the game the way they want to, rather than be constrained by what others consider an optimal experience. People want different things out of gaming, after all, like I mentioned before, and not everyone considers the experience you describe to be optimal. Optimal for you, maybe, but not optimal for others.

Well i didn't mean the fact part as it being the intended way to play. I meant it more as in it was a fact that in hardcore you have to engage with all the games systems from the start, which to me is a good thing. It might not be necessarily intended. It might not be the intended way to play because devs know that players wont engage with it because they dont need to. They could just leave merchant inventories empty in the early game, but that would seem unprofessional so some guys need to design and model some items for nothing basically. I think that devs would prefer if the players engaged with the game early on.