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[borghe]

This is a question I've been pondering for a while. It's not meant for those posters on the board who read or even occassionally read comics. This is meant for those who read comics when they were kids but haven't touched one for 10-20 years or more. Or people who have never touched a comic book in their life. Even someone who stopped reading just 5 years ago but at that point never had any interest in coming back.

Is it the stories? The price? The premise? Are there just too many more distractions today with movies, videogames, TV?

Curious to hear from posters who just happened to wander in here and have no real interest in comics. is there anything that if you saw at a bookstore or supermarket that would grab you and say "Hmm.. what the hell, I'll pick this up."?

 

[shuri]

I just kind of moved on to other things like videogames and playing outside. It just happened. I wasnt a very regular reader tho, I would buy those big compilations that we had here in Quebec that featured a bunch of translated comics. Each book had like two issues Spiderman, Gi Joe and X-men. They were fun to read.

 

[lordmrw]

I'm interested in seeing the responses to this myself. Alot of the time whenever i leave the comic shop, most people who see my comics act as if comics are the devil himself.

 

[ToxicAdam]

By returning me back to a pre-pubscent stage.


Seriously, once I hit puberty, that was it for comic books.


Edit: That time also coincided with the rise of Secret Wars II and other cross-over storylines. Even at that age, I saw it as a desperate attempt to milk fans of thier money. I was pretty insulted when I was reading X-men, and then had to buy 4 issues of New Mutants just to follow a crappy storyline. Fuck that shit.

Later, I tried to get back into it (around 1995), and was put off by the rediculously high prices for nice art and no storyline. Some, of the comics even were "Double sided". Which was a stupid idea also. Why do I have to buy a Spider Man book and another comic book? I just want spiderman.

 

[karasu]

Tell Superman stories that don't revolve around him lamenting his powers, or around people calling him alien, or a threat, or any of that BS that focuses on power and origin instead of substance.

 

[pnjtony]

I picked up my first comic book a couple weeks ago. I'm 27. It was a Star Wars comic because the guy that I share my "pod" at work with is completely obsessed. Anyways, I thought the pics looked cool and all, it was just difficult to read. I'm not illiterate or anything, it was just hard to figure out which bubble and which panel was next. Another thing that was tough was that while I was reading it, my attention kept getting drawn to the illustrations which was making me lose my place.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

...

*opens MS Word*

Hey! I thought this thread looked familiar. :lol

[quote="So You Don't Read Comics" by me, back in 2003](NOTE: Important parts are in bold, for people not wanting to read my ramblings.)


The comic book industry is in a slump. Has been for years. There was a time when top-selling books in the industry experienced sales of close to 1 million copies each month; now, however, a best-selling series is lucky to muster sales of 150k copies each month. And for many comic books published today, sales of even 50k per month is an impossible dream. You've got to admit, that's one heck of a drop-off. People just aren't reading comics like they used to, and the theories about why they aren't reading them are as varied as the comics themselves.

Some folks still blame the slump on the bursting of the speculator bubble back in the early 1990s, an event that nearly killed the industry. Collectors were buying record numbers of comics in the hopes of getting rich, greedy publishers were printing record numbers of comics to get rich, and it all fell apart when collectors realized their investments weren't worth sh*t. The industry really hasn't recovered since, and the aftereffects of that tragedy are indeed still being felt.

Others cite the growing presence of other forms of entertainment - movies, television, video games, and the internet - as a reason for the continued shrinkage of the market. Children and teenagers are plopping down in front of their TVs or computers to be entertained, rather than turn the pages of a comic book, and it seems parents are all-too happy to let them.

Still other industry analysts reference the continued lack of respect that comic books get from the mainstream media and the general public. Comic books as a whole are still viewed as juvenile or deviant wastes of time; wrongfully seen as the stuff of children and the socially inept, only rarely have comics received the praise attributed to "grown-up" literary works and art.

Some of you reading this might protest that last point, arguing that the recent explosion of film adaptations like X2, Spider-Man, and Hulk demonstrates that the public is willing to embrace the comic book medium. But the fact remains that the success of those films and similar endeavors has not translated into increased sales for the industry.

Whatever the reasons for the slump are, the end result is still the same - people aren't reading comics like they used to, and that's put the future of the industry in dire straits. What I want to know is... why? Why aren't people reading comics anymore? I've seen a lot of people in the industry -- creators, publishers, and fanboys alike -- try to answer that question, but the one thing they almost never do is the one thing they should... and that's ask someone who doesn't read comics.

So that's why I'm addressing YOU, the people on this board who don't read comics. Maybe you used to read them, but stopped years ago for some reason; you were a collector that got burned, or you grew up and thought they were childish, or the cool kids laughed at you when you were reading one. Maybe you're one of those people who just never got into comics at all; you wanted to be different from your comic-reading friends so you didn't read them, or your parents forbid you from buying them, or you were traumatized by some overweight fanboy geek when you tried to buy a comic at his store as a child.

Whatever your motives for not reading them, what I'd like to hear from you now is:

1. Why don't you read comic books?

AND

2. What could the comic book industry do to get you to read them?

Also: older folks with young'uns, in addition to the above questions I'd like to know if you do (or would) allow your children to read comics, and why or why not.

This is a serious topic, so I'd like some serious, thought-out responses. It's not a discussion, and it's not a debate; just open up and tell me why you, as someone who currently does not read comic books, chooses not to do so. We'll save the discussion for later, once as many people as possible have responded.

And please, PLEASE - don't post right away. The quicker you post, the more obvious it is that you put little or no thought into your response, the more obvious it is to me that you don't care about the subject, the more depressed I get.

Just... think about these questions whenever you have the time, carefully plan your response, and post a well thought-out explanation. I'll bump this topic from time to time, as many times as it takes to get enough responses, so don't worry about missing your opportunity to respond.

Thank you.
[/quote] IIRC, I think the general response I got was "nothing; I'm an adult now, and comics just aren't interesting anymore." Maybe people's minds have changed since then, so who knows.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

Have a good, regular TPB program. I stopped collecting comics on a monthly basis a few years ago because of their way-too-high prices, and because they were too annoying to store and not as practical to re-read as TPBs. I still buy TPBs and display them on my bookshelf for easy access, and I still get stuff like Powers because they release a new collected trade every six months or so. I wish DC were more regular with Batman.

My dream would be to see just one monthly Batman book and one regular monthly Superman book, with collected trades every six months or so. I would definitely keep up with those comics then. I mean come on, what's wrong with DC? Gotham Central has been out for a while now but we only have a year's worth of issues collected in two volumes, and the second one just came out.

 

[Zaptruder]

Have a start, have an end, be available for down...

nevermind that last one.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I grew disenfrachised with comic books a long time ago.

The gritting teeth.

The badly-proportioned, always posing, muscle-heads.

Corny Superheroes(Let's face it, once you get past Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, it just gets lamer.)

All women have large, pumpkin breasts. No, really, big perfect pumpkins attatched to their chests. Break out an anatomy book, fellas.

Rob Leifeld. Have they banned this guy from the biz yet?

Length. I can breeze through a single comic in about 3 minutes. Back in the 80's(here I go again...), it took me at LEAST 10 minutes to read through an issue of Teen Titans or Uncanny X-Men!

Cost. 3 bucks for a comic ain't cuttin' it.(Or are they 3.50 now? 4.00?)

Spawn and the rest of the anti-heroes. Back when Wolverine was doin' it in the late 70s to early 80's, it was cool. Now that everybody does it...it ain't so cool no more.

The plots. I like stories. A good story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most comic books don't have any of these.

The bad art. (Except for you, Adam Hughes, and a few others.)


Of course, I haven't picked up a comic in like, 7 years. So they might have gotten better by now.

 

[Canadian Psycho]

I'm only into one comic: "Peep Show". Sadly, series creator Joe Matt releases an issue every three years. If he were more productive, I'd read more comics.

 

[gblues]

What's a TPB?

For me, the problem with comics is an extremely poor ROI. I spend a couple bucks and get a slim mag that takes all of 5-10 minutes to read. After that 10-minutes is up:

* The storyline is not resolved; I have to wait for the next issue, or buy it (if I'm reading an old issue)
* Very little of the story is exposed. It's like a soap opera where the characters stay frozen in the same moment for a week, then fast-forward (or change venues before returning to the original storyline).

The whole thing becomes a time/money sink. It's like Magic:The Gathering without the game.

If I was going to get into comics, I'd want the entire story arc to be included in the book. No tie-ins, no buy-this-other-comic-line-to-get-the-RRRRRRREST-of-the-story. You know, like actual books do?

Also, ditch the serial format. Create a character, make a fantastic story. Maybe do a trilogy, but then STOP. The reason more people read LOTR than Spider-Man is because JRR Tolkien didn't put Frodo/Gandalf/et al into a new, bizarre situation every month.

The bottom line is that for a few dollars more, I can buy a paperback and let my mind do the drawings. I think most adults actually prefer that--there is definitely the stigma of comics being for kids.

Nathan

 

[Littleberu]

The first comic book I read to really get into them is Spider-Man Blue. It's one of my favorite ever, because it's really like a movie, it's fast, and it's a retelling of some sort.

Also, ditch the serial format. Create a character, make a fantastic story. Maybe do a trilogy, but then STOP. The reason more people read LOTR than Spider-Man is because JRR Tolkien didn't put Frodo/Gandalf/et al into a new, bizarre situation every month.

That's why TPB are for (Tradepaper back, people also use "the comic was collected"). It's 6 or 7 comics book in one big book.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

TPB stands for "trade paperback", or what some people prefer to call a "graphic novel". It's what you see at Barnes and Noble.

 

[borghe]

I think the trade programs are definitely one of the biggest things. When I was in japan for example, I would definitely say a lot (though not most) of what I saw was people reading trades. and of course you could buy trades anywhere. 7 eleven (or whatever that other convenience store was by our hotel), train stations, where ever comics were sold it seemed trades were sold also. and like many are wanting here, it would seem trades would come out relatively quickly after the last chapters of the trade was published in the weekly.

I definitely think about price also. Again to use japan as an example, a new issue of Shonen Jump is around 230Y (roughly $2). That is like 12-16 comics for $2, literally. Trades were usually around $4-6 for 200 pages. They were digest sized, but still, 3/4 the size for on average what seems like 1/4 the price. a pretty damn fair trade.

I also don't buy the puberty argument. Did you stop watching movies at puberty? Did you stop watching TV or reading books at puberty? Did you stop playing video games? I'm not saying that you didn't stop reading them at puberty, but I don't think puberty was the reason.

Lastly, I can't stress trades enough again. When you plop down $3 to read a book for 10-20 minutes, that is a pretty empty feeling you are left with, even if you enjoyed it. However when you plop down $10 for like an hour and a half of reading, well hey, you are right up there with DVDs. And sure the periodicals might only cost a couple dollars more, but as others have pointed out, there is the problem of storing them (something I am facing now), and then when you want to go back and read the story, pulling out the relevant books, and heaven forbid its a crossover through multiple titles (even though those usually aren't worth the paper they're printed on anyway).

But anyway, the responses so far have been why you left. While there are some good responses along those lines, what I am more curious to is if there is anything the publishers can do to get you back, or pick them up for the first time? So you have never had an interest in comics. That's fine, but then what is the one thing (obviously expecting some silly responses) that publishers could do that wOULD get you interested in them?

 

[fennec fox]

Ditch superheroes. I think they're all idiotic and comics are never going to not be "for kids" if they're still around.

Lower prices. There are a couple series I'd like to read, but it's way too much to buy all of 'em and then I get distracted with other forms of entertainment. Plus, after all these years of reading manga, these wafer-thin monthly issues that cost $3 or whatever seem like a total ripoff.

From what I read, one problem the US comic industry is having is that monthly issues' sales are being cannibalized by TPBs because everyone knows the TPBs will be coming anyway, and they'll be cheaper and printed on better paper. So just screw those monthly issues already. If this bankrupts every comic book store in America, then all the better -- I've never entered one and not felt intimidated.

I love how some comic book fans resent manga for becoming popular in the US. They've become popular because they're doing all the things you should've done years ago -- be cheap, engaging, and non-threatening to beginners.

 

[Lyte Edge]

TPB stands for "trade paperback", or what some people prefer to call a "graphic novel". It's what you see at Barnes and Noble.

...And this is the direction that comics need to go in. More TPBs, perhaps mimicking manga ( make them the same size and price; I know Marvel has tried this), and maybe even try doing monthly anthology comics. Take Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, JLA, etc., and print them on cheap paper in B/W in large "phone book" volumes monthly, just like the anthologies in Japan. Make them $5-$10 and put them in bookstores, supermarkets, etc.

I still buy comics, so I know, I know, TEH QUESTION ISN'T DIRECTED TOWARDS ME!!!1111, but how about getting the writers to start treating comics as COMICS again and less like wannabe movie scripts. Stop killing off minor characters and then hyping it up like it's a big deal. (It was big when Superman died. No one gives a shit about Blue Beetle or Hawkeye) I don't always need a ton of seriousness and more "realistic" looks for the characters. These are comic books. Fantasy. It doesn't have to be real in any way.

The big companies like DC and Marvel could also try to get some more comics that aren't just superheroes. There's plenty of other stuff that could become successful. I'm not saying the American industry should just emulate Japan completely, but look at their comics. You have manga for just about ANYTHING. Why can't we have that kind of variety here?

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

What could comic books do to get you into them?

Nothing.

 

[borghe]

Length. I can breeze through a single comic in about 3 minutes. Back in the 80's(here I go again...), it took me at LEAST 10 minutes to read through an issue of Teen Titans or Uncanny X-Men!

The plots. I like stories. A good story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most comic books don't have any of these.

The bad art. (Except for you, Adam Hughes, and a few others.)

lol!!! boy have things changed. the problem most people have today is that it takes like 20 minutes to get through your typical Bendis comic, and at least 10-15 minutes to gt through your typical Brubaker/Rucka issue.. lol. and all of it is plots that just go on and on and on. lol.. just kind of humours.

as for art, there is still the "image" style, and unfortunately some of that style (actually the founders and early artists) seem to be making somewhat of a comeback, but many of todays most prominent artists are getting back to anatomy. Bagley, Copiel, Land, Hitch, Cassady all have amazing detail to form as well as scenery... very excellent art.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Good point in bringing up Japan.

Also, japanese comics have many themes, settings, moods, etc. AND they appeal to all age groups. Young, old, male, female. You get the idea. American comics only appeal to the male demographic. And the typically nerdy one at that.

 

[borghe]

Ditch superheroes. I think they're all idiotic and comics are never going to not be "for kids" if they're still around.

this is what I don't get about you manga guys P), how come you can have DBZ, Naruto, and Yugi Oh (and the like) but manga is still for everyone, yet comics have some superheroes and they are perceived as "for kids"? It seems hypocritical. And even more so, in many of the larger comic stores and definitely the book stores, while superheros obviously have a presence, in many cases I wouldn't even say they have a majority presence and in most cases they don't even have a vastly overwhelming presence (i.e. there are other types of books and trades available).

So why is it ok for manga to have its stupid male powertrip fantasy books but not ok for US comics?

 

[jetpacks was yes]

...And this is the direction that comics need to go in. More TPBs, perhaps mimicking manga ( make them the same size and price; I know Marvel has tried this), and maybe even try doing monthly anthology comics. Take Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, JLA, etc., and print them on cheap paper in B/W in large "phone book" volumes monthly, just like the anthologies in Japan. Make them $5-$10 and put them in bookstores, supermarkets, etc.

Totally agree with you there. Make them small, b&w if needed, and on cheap paper.

 

[borghe]

I think you guys are underestimating the value of today's non-computer colored art. it works for essentials, back when the colorists painted color onto finished artwork. but today with computer inking and computer coloring and toning, I don't know how much "art" would be left for a black and white version.

not that I disagree with you, and obviously this only applies mainly to the big two's comics.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Nah, I wouldn't make 'em in black and white. I've got some TPBs of some old Marvel comics that are in black and white, and they're very difficult to read without color. I think it's because of the sheer amount of detail in the artwork.

 

[Lyte Edge]

this is what I don't get about you manga guys P), how come you can have DBZ, Naruto, and Yugi Oh (and the like) but manga is still for everyone, yet comics have some superheroes and they are perceived as "for kids"?

Hey, uh...I know the internet nerds may make it seem otherwise, but I got news for you: DBZ, Naruto, and Yu-Gi-Oh! ARE FOR KIDS.

So why is it ok for manga to have its stupid male powertrip fantasy books but not ok for US comics?

Because as we've already said, manga has different genres and basically something for everyone. I see plenty of manga for girls, hell Viz is even making a Shoujo anthology in the U.S. now. There are plenty of American comics that aren't full of superheroes, but you won't find them anywhere except speciaty stores, and even then they account for a very small part of their stock.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Nah, I wouldn't make 'em in black and white. I've got some TPBs of some old Marvel comics that are in black and white, and they're very difficult to read without color. I think it's because of the sheer amount of detail in the artwork.

It would likely cost far too much if a manga-style anotholgy was released featuring hundreds of pages of full color comics though. The Marvel books you're talking about use the cheap paper and do exactly what I'm suggesting, but they're taking art that was already in color and making it B/W. If you draw the comic to be in B/W in the first place, it wouldn't be hard to read at all.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

I think you guys are underestimating the value of today's non-computer colored art. it works for essentials, back when the colorists painted color onto finished artwork. but today with computer inking and computer coloring and toning, I don't know how much "art" would be left for a black and white version.

not that I disagree with you, and obviously this only applies mainly to the big two's comics.

Well obviously, it would have to be art that was meant to be in black and white. Like Bone, or Batman B&W.

BTW, that One Volume Bone collection is just about the most amazing deal I've seen in a very long time. The entire, 1300-page series in one volume for like $25 at Amazon. Yowza.

 

[FortNinety]

When I was talking on a panel with Peter David a few years back, he mentioned how everyone is blaming the death of comics on video games and the internet, and he said that was total bullshit, and I have to agree. Like he said, if something is good, no matter what it is, people will flock to it.

Course there are good comic out there, but no one is reading them. Why? It might have to do with the two reasons why I just can't get into a regular super hero book:

1. Price. Comics are just too fucking expensive these days. I buy mostly independent comics, not just because of the quality, but they often don't come out at often, which means less of a financial commitment. The stupid part is that Marvel and DC know this, but they still rely on buying issues of a series that one doesn't normally read for a story started in just one. Granted, its not as bad as before, but it still happens, and that's totally asanine.

Hence why I stick with trades as well. Also, indie comics don't go on and on for three hundred issues, so there is that type of commitment as well.

2. But my biggest beef is the constant confusion. Its almost impossible to keep track of all the different spin-offs and story tangents, making it all completely unaccessible. It's all done on purpose to make you taste (and buy) many different titles, but again... look at number 1.

Also, I just want to state that I'm absolutely sick of people constantly comparing the American comics market to the Japanese ones cuz they're so completely and utterly different. Why are comics so huge there? It's mostly a commuter based country; comics just became the perfect entertainment while on the train, which still is a great deal of the workforce and public in general. And because of many different people commute, there had to be some variety.

Hence why people who dream of the US ever getting up to the Japanese scale of things (also, people seem to forget that its a very small country) is just kidding themselves. Sorry, I wish it wasn't that way, but its true.

 

[Tuvoc]

To this day I've really only read one comic in my entire life. And that was Danger Girl #1. I ended up reading it like 20 times in one day. I loved it. It had guns and chicks. But they took so long to release the rest of the series that I just fell out of it.


I like the idea of comic books that focus on one superhero. The only part that sucks is the fact that all the cool ones are on like book #434234 and I have no idea whats going on in the story, so I dont buy them.

But pretty soon I'll be moving in to a condo with my friend who has 1,000s of comic books. So I'll probably start reading them.


So to answer your question, it's girls, girls with guns and new good comics that will get me into them.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

I agree with both of your points, FortNinety. It especially got ridiculous when there was some big "earth-shattering event!" like No Man's Land where if you wanted to keep up with the story, you had to buy around five different titles every week.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

That reminds me of two of my all-time favorite American comic series.

Untold Tales of Spider-Man and The Batman Adventures. Nice, self-contained stories with good, but not overly-complicated artwork and great characterization. If you haven't read any of these, you should. You can probably find a bunch in your local comic store's discount bin.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Also, I just want to state that I'm absolutely sick of people constantly comparing the American comics market to the Japanese ones cuz they're so completely and utterly different. Why are comics so huge there? It's mostly a commuter based country; comics just became the perfect entertainment while on the train, which still is a great deal of the workforce and public in general. And because of many different people commute, there had to be some variety.

You think it's only people on the trains? I've been there...there are times (morning and evening rush hour) where it's so crowded you wouldn't even be able to read a small book, let alone a magazine. There's also a large number of shops selling anime/manga, used manga shops, etc. The comic book collections (what we get over here in graphic novel form) sell quite well too.

Hence why people who dream of the US ever getting up to the Japanese scale of things (also, people seem to forget that its a very small country) is just kidding themselves. Sorry, I wish it wasn't that way, but its true.

The fact that Japan is such a small country, yet their comic industry is huge, and growing in popularity all over the world, should say something about what they put out. The fact that bookstores are expanding their manga selections should say something about what they put out.

Manga also being self-contained stories not related to 30 other titles out there, with 20+ years of backstory, and countless crossovers taking place across 20 titles also makes them far more accessable to anyone that picks up a book. The American comic book industry, depsite attempts at "rebooting" and starting over, still can't seem to get away from so much backstory and crossovers with other books. For the fans, it's great, but it makes it very hard for new readers to jump on.

But all of this is going off of the main point. No one is saying that they want American comics to turn into Japanese comics. People ARE saying that the answer to getting more people reading books is more content variety, more self-contained stories, and that a cheap monthly anthology filled with stories could possibly work very well. That's it.

 

[Drensch]

My local store closed in 1997 or so, and I haven't really purchased since then. I'd say pricing keeps me away. 3$ for a comic is way too much.

 

[D2M15]

Maybe you used to read them, but stopped years ago for some reason; you were a collector that got burned...

Something like that. For me, everything's diminishing returns on how fucking amazing the scene was in the Eighties and early Nineties, and so every attempt I've made to get back into comics has been in the shadow of when it was all brave and new.

I don't think there is anything they can do to recover from the crash - there's never going to be another mass injection of ideas and talent like when Vertigo poached the 2000AD vanguard, and if DC and Dark Horse weren't willing to support their cult markets back in '97 or so when it was arguably still there, if failing, they certainly won't risk it again now.

I've bought a couple of series in the past five years, but generally I end up standing in front of the racks for hours then leaving empty-handed: I expect my local Forbidden Planet think I'm a care in the community outpatient. The worst thing is knowing that my father's been vindicated: years ago in my university hovel when he saw where thousands of dollars of my student loan had gone, he prophecised "You'll lose interest in them eventually, you know," to which I said of course I won't you don't understand they're patently the greatest form of literature in the universe ever OH GOD THEY'VE CANCELLED VERMILLION.

And thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject, Spiegel. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

 

[borghe]

the comparisons to the japanese market I don't think occur because people want the american market to be like the japanese market, at least I don't. What I am curious to know though is if there is anything that occurs in the japanese market that DOESN'T happen in america that could help the situation.

and I don't mean to spell doom and gloom. Three years ago there were only 3 titles over 100K, only 14 over 50K, and 97 over 20K. Now there are 7 titles over 100K, 30 over 50K, and over a hundred usually over 20K. 4 years ago it was newsworthy when ultimate x-men #5 had actually topped 100K and less than 90 titles were selling 20K. So the industry is definitely growing (I don't want to use the term recovering). ICV2 only goes back to March 2001, but I'm sure if we had sales data for even further back than that it would only show yet more constant growth since the 90's crash.

I also think the industry is doing a better job of getting licensed material out there, and not just Marvel and DC. I think there needs to be even more of it (quality of course, though even average quality will do), and I think they really need to keep it in the people's mind that "You are watching a story that was originally published in a comic. Go to your comic or book retailer and go buy it."

I think this is another difference in japan. Comics aren't just comics in japan. Most anime seems derived from manga, and with DVDs, manga, and movies being huge over there, along with other things like collectible figures, models, etc.. It is just so integrated into your typical teenager/young adults life. Over here, as other have mentioned, aside from the occassional movie, you are left with a partial row in Barnes and Noble and the dank corners of comic shops.

At least Marvel and DC are finally realizing these are properties, and should be treated as such. TV shows, cartoons, movies, etc.

anyway, to not stray too much, I think some of what I'm hearing here is price (no duh..), format (more TPBs and more timely releases), availability (more than just comic shops and book stores for the non-superhero titles). I am hearing range (non-superhero), but really think that is covered. I think the real complaint about range is (at least for me) even the largest comic shops only carry a relatively small amount of small publisher stuff, and the book stores carry almost nothing that isn't manga, DC, Marvel, Image, or Dark Horse.

I really appreciate you guys who are participating. This has turned out to be an interesting thread. I only hope more people who maybe have never read comics or stopped when they got older stop on in and comment as to if there was ever a possibility that they though they might give comics a chance, and what would need to occur for that to happen.

 

[Justin Bailey]

I'm not really interested in the whole "superhero" thing. After I saw Sin City I really want to grab some of those, however. I almost got one the other day, but it was like $20.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

So do you work in the industry, borghe?

 

[borghe]

I'm not really interested in the whole "superhero" thing. After I saw Sin City I really want to grab some of those, however. I almost got one the other day, but it was like $20.

Most of the dark horse books are pretty ridiculous. this falls under value. your typical Hellboy or Sin City series is 4 issues or so and costs $18-20 in TPB. It is actually cheaper to buy them in periodical form.

So do you work in the industry, borghe?

not at all and this will probably never see people who matter's eyes. What I am however is someone who started reading in 1986 and worked in a comic shop between 1991 and 1992 and pretty much saw the modern boom of the industry first hand (though left before the collapse).

 

[Justin Bailey]

Most of the dark horse books are pretty ridiculous. this falls under value. your typical Hellboy or Sin City series is 4 issues or so and costs $18-20 in TPB. It is actually cheaper to buy them in periodical form.

I assume by that you mean "good-ol', regular, floppy comic" form? Sorry I don't know shit about comcs really. So where can I find these in periodical form instead (and how much would they run apiece)?

BTW I was actually at a fairly large comic book store and I didn't see anything but the TPBs.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I think for me it's just a division of time and resources toward what gives me my greatest leisure time enjoyment. I followed them fairly closely about 15 years ago.

If there is some sort of enjoyment/expense equation, I would say that comics score lower than games, books, dvds or cds for me. I like the art styles and I recognize that the narratives are much wider and mature in scope than most people give them credit for but at the same time the combination of the two isn't as enjoyable for me as a good book. I'm not saying that they are trying to accomplish the exact same goal, or that comics don't have attributes that allow totally different goals from literature, but it's rarely as compelling in the same way to me.

I realize that the medium of comics is pretty old at this point, but as far as modern comics with mature themes go, they still seem somewhat young. By that I simply mean that....take game narratives....they are at a youthful stage still. Comics are further along and more complex. And novels are yet even further (by several miles). There are exceptions to all, but it's a sort of the exception proves the rule kind of thing.

I also think that besides a few cultural high points that comics have failed to lose a lot of the stigma that surrounds them. Even more so than games.

 

[TheOMan]

I'm not really interested in the whole "superhero" thing. After I saw Sin City I really want to grab some of those, however. I almost got one the other day, but it was like $20.

I'm gonna second the whole "I'd like to pick up a comic but don't know what's going on because I'm joining late and now I can't get caught up" comment earlier. I can't count the number of times a comic has caught my eye, I pick it up to check it out and put it back on the rack because numerous references to earlier issues are made, like it's a big secret. If back issues were more accessible, that would make jumping in midstream easier. Hence I wait for graphic novels, but by then, my interest has waned. Meh.

 

[borghe]

I assume by that you mean "good-ol', regular, floppy comic" form? Sorry I don't know shit about comcs really. So where can I find these in periodical form instead (and how much would they run apiece)?

BTW I was actually at a fairly large comic book store and I didn't see anything but the TPBs.

well, sin city at this moment is kind of a bad example (because it's hot) but if you give it a bit to cool down again, a year or two ago most shops in the area were selling the books at around $3.00 each. so a 5 issue series would only be like $15.

and don't forget about amazon. I hate to dump on the smaller local shops like that, but being able to pick up graphic novels for $13 or less on Amazon (in sin city's case) is a pretty big deal.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...e=books/ref=xs_ap_l_xgl14/002-7202840-9807247

 

[Shig]

It would likely cost far too much if a manga-style anotholgy was released featuring hundreds of pages of full color comics though.

Most magazines are full-color on glossy paper, 150+ pages, and retail under $5.

I totally agree that the anthology format is where comics need to go. Individual 22-page comics at $3 a pop is a rip, total rip. A $5 anthology featuring the equivalent of 5 or more comics, however, would be very hard to pass up.

TPB prices need to come down, too. $15-20 is too much, especially with manga only being $8-10. I'd say $10-12 should be the standard.

I love how some comic book fans resent manga for becoming popular in the US. They've become popular because they're doing all the things you should've done years ago -- be cheap, engaging, and non-threatening to beginners.

I am in total agreeance with this.

 

[Vandiger]

I think the last comic book I bought was Sandman Graphic Novels. Great stuff, the mythology and some background about the Endless was excellent.

 

[D2M15]

all the things you should've done years ago -- be cheap, engaging, and non-threatening to beginners.

Well, I'm cheap. One out of three ain't bad.

 

[Teddman]

They got too expensive. I remember when "prestige format" issues were like $2.95, then all of a sudden they were $7 or more in the span of a couple years, and standard comic issues were $1.50 or $2.00, up from 75 cents.

Just print on pulp paper and charge a dollar at most and I might start reading a few comics again.

 

[borghe]

I love manga because unlike western comics, the stories are varied and it covers a whole slew of genres (from underground drag racing to cooking to blood pumping mystery stories and even stories about boys joining a band and trying to make it as a band, touring around the world). Not to mention the art is considerably better. Western comics...I forgot why I like them. Some can be good like X-men, Spiderman;etc. because they manage to have a good balance with morals, sense of value, and so forth, but the whole super hero thing gets really tired.

Manga > *

This is why Sin City compells me,it's a Western comic not about a bunch of rag tag teenagers trying to save the world from mutants.

you really need to get to a comic shop. comics are way more than superheroes. sin city is just the tip of the iceberg, though I will concede that western comics still aren't as varied as japanese ones (no racing or cooking comics that I can think of).

Most magazines are full-color on glossy paper, 150+ pages, and retail under $5.

I totally agree that the anthology format is where comics need to go. Individual 22-page comics at $3 a pop is a rip, total rip. A $5 anthology featuring the equivalent of 5 or more comics, however, would be very hard to pass up.

TPB prices need to come down, too. $15-20 is too much, especially with manga only being $8-10. I'd say $10-12 should be the standard.

I am in total agreeance with this.

while I can understand this is a "this is what I think they are worth" type of post, comparing them to magazines is ridiculous. first, most typical magazines are more usually in a ballpark of 80-100 pages or so (for $5). Next, combine that with the fact that they are around 60% advertising. 100 pages times 60% advertising is 40 pages left, or less than two typical modern day books. You would be saving a dollar. While this would certainly make for slightly cheaper books, I think in the long run the storytelling would be interrupted by the constant ads throughout.

As for the comparison to manga, also realize that manga is both smaller and in black and white. Not saying this is bad or isn't something the bug publishers should be thinking about, I'm just saying you can't compare the two forms in their current incarnations. though as we've said, size and color in regards to trades are certainly something people seem willing to give up in exchange for lowered prices.

They got too expensive. I remember when "prestige format" issues were like $2.95, then all of a sudden they were $7 or more in the span of a couple years, and standard comic issues were $1.50 or $2.00, up from 75 cents.

Just print on pulp paper and charge a dollar at most and I might start reading a few comics again.

to be fair, it wasn't a "couple of years". Prestige Format books haven't been $2.95 since 1986. The first $7 prestige format book I believe was around 2001 or so.. that is 15 years.

 

[Justin Bailey]

From what I read, one problem the US comic industry is having is that monthly issues' sales are being cannibalized by TPBs because everyone knows the TPBs will be coming anyway, and they'll be cheaper and printed on better paper. So just screw those monthly issues already. If this bankrupts every comic book store in America, then all the better -- I've never entered one and not felt intimidated.

Oh yeah, almost every store I've been in felt like the PIT OF DISPAIR or something. Store owners should spice up the place a bit and try to hire more customer-service oriented people rather than the guy that knows everything about comics.

 

[jiggle]

What drove me away were all the superstar pencilers. I bought comics mainly for the artworks. Then Jim Lee stopped drawing, Silvestri would start a book off for a few issues and leave it to someone else. And then those Cliffhanger books, nicely drawn but constantly late. Same thing with Travis Charest. And that greedy Michael Turner launched Fathom with 3 varients interiors??? WTF! And I don't even know what happened to my favorite penciler, Carlos Pacheco, after he finished Avenger Forever.

Besides the X-titles, I went to the stores for the purpose of getting their books, and would pick up others that might be good reads. So my interest dwindled since I was making less and less trips to the store. I ended up picking up 3 or 4 months worth of Xmen books at a time, and eventually decided I can live without them also.

 

[Teddman]

to be fair, it wasn't a "couple of years". Prestige Format books haven't been $2.95 since 1986. The first $7 prestige format book I believe was around 2001 or so.. that is 15 years.

I remember prestige format hitting $6.95 in the early '90's.

EDIT: I don't know if it was the official DC "prestige format" or some of the smaller label stuff. But when $5.95 and up was the norm for those books, and standard comics crept towards $2.00, it was just too much money to keep up with all the books I wanted to read.