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What could comic books do to get you into them?

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DaveH

Member
Piracy/Price - When stranded at Border/Barnes & Noble, it's a great time to pick up a graphic novel and play catch up. Online "free" (pirated or legit like Marvel's Dot Comics attempt) comic books make it a no brainer. I'll wager a good majority of manga evangelists in America aren't paying for their stories but instead relying on free "scanlations" or basically manga piracy (if they're investing in imported raw literature... they're FAR from the mainstream). It's certainly easier to get into something with no monetary investment.

Popularity - Let's face it, if something's in then word of mouth will get people into it. I know some of my friends have gotten back into comics because I got back into them. If it's a cultural phenomena where you can talk with people about it, discuss it, etc (ala Japan), then it's easier to get into... vs, some solitary hobby where you get what you get out of it; then maybe some internet conversation on the side, but that's it. Sheer popularity/exposure means you can talk about Spider-Man the movie with you co-workers a helluva lot more than discuss Amazing Spider-Man #209, or what not.
 
Anthologies won't work in the US. And Marvel's already tried them, repeatedly without success.


jiggle said:
And I don't even know what happened to my favorite penciler, Carlos Pacheco, after he finished Avenger Forever.
Among other things, a run on Fantastic Four, the acclaimed JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, recently Superman/Batman, and currently Green Lantern. IIRC he's a DC exclusive artist through 2006.
 

jiggle

Member
Spike Spiegel said:
Among other things, a run on Fantastic Four, the acclaimed JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, recently Superman/Batman, and currently Green Lantern. IIRC he's a DC exclusive artist through 2006.


Oh really? So he returned to F4 after Avengers?
Writing those down now, I actually may track them down. :)
 

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
Stop canceling every fucking book I read cuz its not selling 435435345 every month. I only quit reading a little over 2 years ago and when I checked the latest solicitations thread only two of the 10 or 11 books I read are still around and 1 is being brought back soon. Thats not even counting the 8 or 9 other titles that were canceled during the two years I was reading.

Open a store closer to me. It was always a pain driving 30 miles to buy friggin comic books......ok so comic companys dont have much control over that but its still a reason I got out.

Find some writers and artists with a god damn attention span strong enough to stay with a book for more than 10 or 12.
 

Shig

Strap on your hooker ...
borghe said:
while I can understand this is a "this is what I think they are worth" type of post, comparing them to magazines is ridiculous. first, most typical magazines are more usually in a ballpark of 80-100 pages or so (for $5). Next, combine that with the fact that they are around 60% advertising. 100 pages times 60% advertising is 40 pages left, or less than two typical modern day books. You would be saving a dollar. While this would certainly make for slightly cheaper books, I think in the long run the storytelling would be interrupted by the constant ads throughout.
A) What portion of the magazine rack are you sampling from, gardening & history? 150 pages as an average is conservative, if anything.

B) Comic books already have a lot of ads.

C) A monthly issue of Shonen Jump has something like 250+ B&W pages and 30+ full color pages, and goes for, what, $4.95, $5.95? And that's put out by Viz, not a huge company. You don't think DC, through their parent company Time Warner, could afford to put out something around half the size at a similar price? A lower page count, much more notable and higher-paying sponsors, and bigger circulation would more than offset the cost of colored pages.
As for the comparison to manga, also realize that manga is both smaller and in black and white. Not saying this is bad or isn't something the bug publishers should be thinking about, I'm just saying you can't compare the two forms in their current incarnations. though as we've said, size and color in regards to trades are certainly something people seem willing to give up in exchange for lowered prices.
The Teen Titans TPBs have been coming out at $10 and doing better sales than most. Those Marvel Age books are in full color and only $6. DC and Marvel can obviously afford it, they just need to jump in and see what happens if they attempt to make those kinds of prices the standard, rather than just soaking their pinkies in the pool and only doing it for a couple of books, some of which are frankly very crappy in the first place.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Shig said:
A) What portion of the magazine rack are you sampling from, gardening & history? 150 pages as an average is conservative, if anything.
I would suggest looking again. typical news magazines (like people, time, entertainment weekly) have WAY less than 100 pages. gaming magazines are usually around 100 pages. and the magazines that are 150+ pages are usually more than 60% ad supported.

B) Comic books already have a lot of ads.
comics are typically 20-24 actual comics pages. then you figure maybe like 1-3 house pages (house ads, editorials, letters page, comming up, etc) and at the end of the day a comic only has around 8-10 pages inside for ads (not including the three covers for ads or the occassional center spread which is tacked on to the 32 pages).

C) A monthly issue of Shonen Jump has something like 250+ B&W pages and 30+ full color pages, and goes for, what, $4.95, $5.95? And that's put out by Viz, not a huge company. You don't think DC, through their parent company Time Warner, could afford to put out something around half the size at a similar price? A lower page count, much more notable and higher-paying sponsors, and bigger circulation would more than offset the cost of colored pages.
I am very suspect of that 30 color pages number. will have to check some issues when I get home. I recall it being more like 16 pages tops. also remember that all Viz has to pay for Shonen Jump is the licensing and translating of the material. they require no writers and significantly less art hours per 250 page book than even a 32 page comic. As for notable sponsors, sega, nintendo, candy companies, etc. are all regular ad buyers in comics.

The Teen Titans TPBs have been coming out at $10 and doing better sales than most. Those Marvel Age books are in full color and only $6. DC and Marvel can obviously afford it, they just need to jump in and see what happens if they attempt to make those kinds of prices the standard, rather than just soaking their pinkies in the pool and only doing it for a couple of books, some of which are frankly very crappy in the first place.
I do agree that doing this on niche or kid friendly titles is stupid. I do agree that they need to get digest sized books out for $8 and see what happens. I know I would buy them.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Himuro said:
Check my edit, I put the names of these titles and I highly suggest them. Since we're going with a trade off, suggest me some high quality non Superhero western comics.

Hell, I suggest everyone read the manga Deathnote. It's by far the best manga I have ever read and totally appealing to adults like ourselves.
some of the non-superhero titles I've personally enjoyed are of course the obvious ones like Sin City, Hellboy, Concrete, and Sandman. Recent ones I've come across and loved are True Story Swear to God, the Courtney Crumrin series, Age of Bronze, and Sleeper (the original and season 2). Just off the top of my head.
 

DaveH

Member
borghe said:
also remember that all Viz has to pay for Shonen Jump is the licensing and translating of the material. they require no writers and significantly less art hours per 250 page book than even a 32 page comic.

I'm curious about the reverse. How well do American comics do in foreign markets? Is it handled by Viz-like groups or does Marvel/DC/etc. have their own international branches that take care of it? It's clear that the Japanese have at least some exposure to American comics... but how successful/prevelant is it?
 

Shig

Strap on your hooker ...
borghe said:
I would suggest looking again. typical news magazines (like people, time, entertainment weekly) have WAY less than 100 pages. gaming magazines are usually around 100 pages. and the magazines that are 150+ pages are usually more than 60% ad supported.
Guess I should have specified monthly, not weekly, magazines. I don't know about some of those numbers, I mean, Game Informer is one of the thinner magazines on the stand and it has around 120 or so an issue, IIRC.
I am very suspect of that 30 color pages number. will have to check some issues when I get home. I recall it being more like 16 pages tops. also remember that all Viz has to pay for Shonen Jump is the licensing and translating of the material. they require no writers and significantly less art hours per 250 page book than even a 32 page comic. As for notable sponsors, sega, nintendo, candy companies, etc. are all regular ad buyers in comics.
Well, that color page number was just a guesstimate. Maybe I saw an issue that had more than usual. But the point was that if Viz can afford to put out something a big as that at such a low price, I'm absolutely certain Time Warner can put out something somewhat along the same lines.
I do agree that doing this on niche or kid friendly titles is stupid. I do agree that they need to get digest sized books out for $8 and see what happens. I know I would buy them.
Yep, I'd easily buy 3 or so of those for every $12+ one I do now.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
DaveH said:
I'm curious about the reverse. How well do American comics do in foreign markets? Is it handled by Viz-like groups or does Marvel/DC/etc. have their own international branches that take care of it? It's clear that the Japanese have at least some exposure to American comics... but how successful/prevelant is it?
across the pond (aka europe) you see more of it. I believe it is all handled by local branches of Marvel DC, etc.

in japan, Western comics are virtually non-existent (much like manga 20+ years agoover here). They have no need for it and in many cases are even slightly oblivious to it.
 

DaveH

Member
Google sez:

http://www.viz.com/about/faq/#14
Is there a market for American comics in Japan?
Some, but it is very small. In America, most fans discover anime before they discover comics. In the same way, most Japanese fans see a comic-based Hollywood movie and later are surprised to discover that it was a comic to begin with. With access to so many great Japanese-made comics, it's no wonder the Japanese don't see a need to look to other cultures for their comics. After all, most Americans don't look to Japan for blockbuster action/adventure movies.

and...

http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1020
American and European fans and many more have all accepted the culture and traditions of the Japanese as far as anime and manga go. But why is it so hard for an American publisher of a comic or a publisher of another country to get popularity in Japan? Does this mean Japanese readers are uptight and close minded enough not to give other countries a chance?
Before trying to address your question with my personal theories, I want to stress that there is some difference between foreign works being published in Japan and foreign artists working in Japan. There are few foreign artists working in Japan partially due to the fact that the Japanese governmental customs agency rarely approves long term residency or employment visas for foreigners seeking jobs in Japan's entertainment industries. Japan is a country roughly the size of California with nearly four times the population. Japan doesn't want lots of foreigners moving into the country because the country is already crowded enough with its own native population. And since Japan is an island, resources are even more difficult to procure than they are in a landlocked country of equal size.

So while there are very practical reasons why few foreign artists live and work in Japan, these reasons have little relation to the reasons why the work of foreign artists isn't always widely accepted in Japan. Before looking at Japanese culture, I'd like to point out our own Western, and particularly American culture. There's no doubt that Japanese comics and animation have become popular and successful in America, but I'm hesitant to say that manga and anime have become "accepted" in America. The culture and traditions of anime and manga have been partially embraced by American fans, but imported Japanese pop art has not yet become a genuine mainstream American success relative to domestic American comic books. Within just the past few years there have been numerous successful American motion pictures based on American comics: X-Men, Hulk, Spiderman, Daredevil, Punisher, Elektra, Blade. Yet how many equally mainstream anime hits have there been? The Yu-Gi-Oh movie was critically cited as worst film of 2004. And it's arguably not even purely authentic anime since it was produced specifically for American release and therefore wasn't made with the same traditional production goals that characterize authentic anime. Although their sales are often superceded by imported manga, domestic comics are still more mainstream, more recognized, and more accepted in America than Japanese comics and animation. So although we say that Japan is narrow minded in its refusal to recognize foreign art, American society is likewise guilty.

Japan has a different culture from America. Japanese natives have different perceptions, tastes, and opinions than Americans and Europeans. Furthermore, as I've been heard to say before, there's no such thing as a perfect country. One who criticizes Japan's reluctance to adopt foreign entertainment styles too harshly may be just comparing Japanese culture to impossibly high expectations. Japanese society has always been characterized by a sense of ethnic solidity and cultural isolationism. Even today the overwhelming majority of people living in Japan are native Japanese, and Japanese racism and sexism are well documented sociological facts. But I don't think that racism explains why foreign comics and animation aren't massively popular in Japan. It's natural human instinct to be attracted to forms of entertainment that seem familiar and comfortable. Manga and anime are created by Japanese natives for Japanese natives, and are imbued with the traditions, sensibilities and perceptions of native Japanese culture. Western comics and animation are designed for Westerners and may simply be more accessible and appealing to Westerners than Asians. The fact that Japanese manga and anime seem appealing and accessible to Americans doesn't mean that American comics and animation seem appealing or accessible to Japanese. Although similar in fundamental construction, Japanese manga and anime are not interchangeable with American comics and cartoons, so, likewise, reactions to each will vary.

Typical American comics and animation emphasize a sense of unreality. Heroes are extroverted, individualistic superhumans. Cartoons feature talking animals and unrealistic settings. These elements reflect the principles of American culture: independence, individuality, autonomy, strength, and clear distinctions- especially between reality and fantasy and between youth and adulthood. Typical Japanese comics and animation emphasize exactly the opposite- a sense of reality: heroes are believable people; events occur in settings that resemble real life; no matter how fantastic, the story always remains one that readers and viewers can personally relate to and believe. These elements reflect the principles of Japanese culture: homogeneity, introspection, responsibility to society and self sacrifice. Westerners may be more able to comprehend the principles of Japanese society evident in manga and anime than are Japanese able to relate to the philosophy inherent in American comics and animation. Certainly there are instances of European and American comics and animation that are humble and low key, but what reason is there for an average Japanese consumer to adopt something foreign like that when a similar native piece of artwork is just as effective?

To make a final point, I need to refer to the fact that Japan is roughly the size of California. To Americans, it seems as though imported Japanese pop culture is widespread and steam rolling over domestic American popular culture when, in fact, imported Japanese art accounts for only a small percentage of America's entertainment industry. Likewise, American pop culture fantasy like Spiderman, X-Men, The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Simpsons, and Peanuts have captured a small portion of Japan's entertainment market. Considering the difference in size and population between American and Japan, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the degree of infiltration of foreign pop culture art in America and Japan is similar by ratio. It may seem as though imported art is big in America because America is a big country just as it may seem as though imported art is small in Japan because Japan is a relatively small country.

The fact that foreign art isn't apparently in high demand in Japan shouldn't be considered a fault. Japan has no obligation to approve of, accept, or enjoy foreign pop culture art. The American anime invasion is not a bilateral trade. It's not a two lane highway; it's a highway from Japan into America beside a narrow sidewalk from American into Japan. And there's really no reason why Westerners should expect or demand circumstances to be otherwise. Originally manga and anime were never intended to be seen outside of Japan. Even today, Japanese natives are surprised that foreigners are interested in their forms of entertainment art. If we insist that Japan acknowledge and accept our art as we've embraced theirs, we are egotistically imposing our own sensibilities onto a culture that is not our own. Presumably Western comic and animation art isn't very popular in Japan because average Japanese natives just don't like it, have difficulty relating to it, or don't find it as appealing as their own native art. We Westerners have no right to blame Japanese culture for not being like us and not thinking like us and not liking the same things we like.
 
Himuro said:
Check my edit, I put the names of these titles and I highly suggest them. Since we're going with a trade off, suggest me some high quality non Superhero western comics.
Sin City, Hellboy/BRPD, Conan, Concrete, Sandman, 100 Bullets, Y: the Last Man, Usagi Yojimbo, Fables, etc etc...

Hell, just track down a copy of Previews, or go visit a site that sells comics online. I'm almost willing to guarantee that, outside of the sections devoted to DC and Marvel, you aren't going to see much "spandex and capes" in the 400+ pages they devote to comics solicitations each month. Indies are almost never about that stuff.
 

DaveH

Member
One odd/surprising thing I read from my search was that Spawn, of all comics, was one of the few American comic success stories in Japan. Another quote:

"I think younger readers in general don't think American comics are cool. They see them as something perhaps for big brother or dad," Boyd said. "But more importantly, American comics are very, very male-oriented. Even Japanese comics that were aimed at boys in Japan, like 'Love Hina,' are more girl-friendly than virtually anything published by Marvel, DC, Dark Horse or Image — with a few exceptions.
 
manga..... *pffft* come talk to me about manga being better when they produce something as good as watchmen or dark knight returns or red son or..... you get the picture.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
I do agree that as far as mainstream books go, virtually nothing outside of vertigo is even remotely interesting to most girls, and even inside of vertigo I would probably say less than half would probably be interesting to girls.

I definitely think it would be in the best interest of the industry for marvel and DC to "swallow" up some of the smaller studios and creators. by that I mean publish the studio/creator's books, and sure it might still not sell as many copies as Ultimate Spider-Man or even Daredevil, but I'm sure marvel can make a profit off of 7000 copies and get the book into a trade and on Barnes and Nobles' shelves. This is why Image was great in concept (to do that exact thing) but bad in execution (eventually turning out to be the "independent" marvel).

evil solrac v3.0 said:
manga..... *pffft* come talk to me about manga being better when they produce something as good as watchmen or dark knight returns or red son or..... you get the picture.
I don't think anyone is saying the overall quality of manga is better, just some aspects of it (the contained stories, finite runs, cheaper prices, wider variety, etc).
 

8bit

Knows the Score
Lone Wolf & Cub is easily as good as Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen, if not better.

However, that's about it.
 

Lyte Edge

All I got for the Vernal Equinox was this stupid tag
Spike Spiegel said:
Anthologies won't work in the US. And Marvel's already tried them, repeatedly without success.

A manga-style anthology? With NEW stories (as in scrap the comics alltogether and put them all in the anthology)? So for example, you have an X-Men anthology book that's monthly and contains Uncanny, Astonishing, New X-Men, Wolverine, etc. in one book? This is what would be printed on cheap-o paper and in B/W, and put in bookstores, grocery stores, etc. They could still do the regular comics, colorized, for the specialty shops.

I realize that they stand to make more money just selling all the titles separately for $3 each, which is why a $5-$10 anthology would never happen. :)
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
8bit said:
Lone Wolf & Cub is easily as good as Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen, if not better.

However, that's about it.
well, don't forget about stuff like Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind or Akira, among others.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I recently (like in the last 2 months) got back into comics after not touching an issue for 10+ years from when Spawn came out and the whole Image fiasco disgused me enough to make me quit cold turkey. The main thing that got me back in was seeing succesful writers that I knew I liked from other, more mainstream genres like movies and TV start writing comics.

However, I still can't quite get over my disgust at Marvel for the 90s. I'm going to pretty much be a TPB-only Marvel guy and spend most of my time and money on DC. What strikes me when I go into a B&N or other chain is the huge shelves taken up with manga. That was just completely incomprehensible when I was a comic reading kid in the early 90s.
 
Lyte Edge said:
A manga-style anthology? With NEW stories (as in scrap the comics alltogether and put them all in the anthology)? So for example, you have an X-Men anthology book that's monthly and contains Uncanny, Astonishing, New X-Men, Wolverine, etc. in one book? This is what would be printed on cheap-o paper and in B/W, and put in bookstores, grocery stores, etc. They could still do the regular comics, colorized, for the specialty shops.

I realize that they stand to make more money just selling all the titles separately for $3 each, which is why a $5-$10 anthology would never happen. :)
It's not really a matter of them wanting to "make more money," Lyte. It's a matter of making enough money to keep the business running while still earning a profit. The anthology thing just won't work here.

Cheap paper is not attractive to mainstream consumers, especially with such a visual medium; comics already have a hard enough time avoiding the stigma of being "for kids," so how's it going to look to the skeptical Average Joe when they're being printed on the same quality paper as the Sunday funnies?

Going exclusively B/W puts an industry of colorists and digital artists out of business, and you're losing a distinguishing characteristic of American comics -- color.

Collecting all of those X-books (or Spider-books, or Bat-books, or whatever) together in a single anthology as you suggested means sacrificing a large number of potential sales and MONEY, as the readership on those books often overlaps, and that's bad for an industry still struggling after the dark 90s.

Writers and artists will be asked to produce the same workload for less money and no royalties, because $5 anthologies aren't making enough to cover their old salaries and, unlike their Japanese counterparts, they don't own the characters they're working on.

Anthologies mean smaller, less popular titles get squeezed out, and that also puts writers/artists out of business. Sure, the readers will get behind the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Batman, but how many anthologies is the market willing to support? What happens to the lesser known stuff? Retailers aren't gonna stock a book where the headliner is Doctor Strange, and readers are gonna vote out the small stuff in favor of more Spider-Man or whatever.

And despite what Shonen Jump claims, anthologies aren't a proven success in the US. They're just like magazines in that retail chains order massive quantities for their shelves, and at the end of the month what doesn't sell gets shipped back. IIRC Shonen Jump's paid circulation rate is only 175k each month; that's not much more than the top-selling American comics, and if you combined the top 5 you'd end up with better figures than Shonen Jump. They'd still end up having to rely on subscriptions and advertising to make up the difference, just like everyone else.

Marvel has experimented with anthology -style books, in specialty shops and large chain retailers. Mighty Marvel Must-Haves, the Ultimates magazines, the flip-books, all collecting 3-4 issues for around $4. They didn't sell.

Look, you want cheaper comics? Get more people to read them, get more people to buy TPBs.
 

siege

Banned
I stopped collecting/reading comics when I was in the 6th grade. Quite simply, I just don't have much interest in them anymore. Wasn't a big reader even back then - I was a fan of the art more than anything. However, I still enjoy the Batman trade paperbacks and graphic novels from time to time.

I'd just prefer to watch the movies/play the videogames to get my superhero fix.
 

Future Trunks

lemme tell you something son, this guy is SO FARKING HUGE HE'LL FLEX AND DESTROY THE SUN no shit
Where would you get info on the comic book market? Like general industry numbers (globally, national, regional). I remember Wizard's little pie chart breakdowns towards the back of the issues, but would that be comprehensive enough? Also, I've been meaning to do some research of the history of Marvel/DC/Image and few smaller ones like CrossGen (what happened to them?). I wanna find out how they operated from a business standpoint - what they did right or wrong. With comics being such a fickle market, I'd wonder what they did to stay afloat or get started at all (except in Marvel and DC's case)....

For me, I seem to be having a decent time discovering the comics I missed after quitting (see Jiggle's explanation with the disappearance of certain pencilers). I don't think I'll ever be INTO comics like I once was, but I'm more into good adventures. Nothing deep and necessarily thought provoking, but something, when I'm done, that makes me say "That was cool! And action packed! I kind wish it were animated or a movie..." Y'know? Just a good adventure...entertainment, that paints a world I want to know more about. For me, it's not about reading elite books, just something that can act as a very good diversion.
 

GDGF

Soothsayer
My interest in comics decreased as my interest in breaking into the comics industry decreased, actually.

But that's a personal problem, I guess.

Still, I'd read em again if they cost two bucks at the most, as I still read over my old back issues.
 
Here are some things to consider:

- Comics in Japan spawn the cartoons, games, and movies. It's not the case of the US market where Corporations that have misappropriated creators properties through the years are trying to resuscitate the comic medium through movies, cartoons, and games.

- Comics in the United States in the 1930-40's IIRC, were extremely popular. The model was similar to the Japanese market format, with comics running in the newspapers, and being collected into periodicals and sold as collections. Comics used to sell like hotcakes back in these days. Read up on your comic history! (edit: Now with a handy on-line link since you can't have my bookshelf!)

Then along came Frederick Wertham and declared that comics would surely turn the children of America into deviants. In an act of self preservation, and underhanded means of killing the competition, comic publishers adopted a self imposed censorship set of standards. The Comics Code Authority.

This effectively killed any growth comics in the United States could have experienced in the womb.

This is what would have happened to video games if Senator Lieberman successfully convinced parents and politicians that video games would turn us all into trained killers. In which case, I'm certain Nintendo would have been perfectly fine.

At least Marvel and DC are finally realizing these are properties, and should be treated as such. TV shows, cartoons, movies, etc.

Bullshit.

Marvel and DC swindled a bunch of rubes out of Their Creations and is desperately attempting to keep those aging misappropriated properties relevant in today's society, and to today's children.

House of Ideas my ass.

Does the world need a new Excalibur and Alpha Flight comic?

Say what you will about the Japanese Market, but Akira Toriyama owns Dragonball, and the whole issue of Creator's Rights is not shat upon by the controlling corporate interests.

I commend DC for letting Vertigo fly. Marvel has promised a creator owned line, but so far all they've managed to do is make a total house nigger out of Bendis and keep his personal books under wraps. So far as I recall, they were supposed to take up publishing Powers from Image. To my knowledge this hasn't happened.

Regardless, this doesn't excuse what Marvel and DC do in the comics business. Which is creative strip mining.

A part of the problem with the American comic market is that the controlling interests with the ability to reach the widest audience are lazy and corrupt. There are good creator owned books out there, but the owners struggle to keep them afloat, and they don't have a fraction of the bankroll Marvel / DC does.

I commend TokyoPop for starting the "Rising Stars of Manga" contest. Why in the fuck didn't Marvel and DC attempt this? Get fresh blood, with new characters, and ideas? The answer is obvious - because they don't control these creations.

The American comic market can point the accusing finger at Marvel and DC. There are small guys out there trying to make it, but they'll be lucky if they do. I have to tip my hat to Guillermo del Toro and Robert Rodriguez for being drawn to Mike Mignola and Frank Miller, and giving the creator owned comics a shot at the big time.

Tuvoc: So to answer your question, it's girls, girls with guns and new good comics that will get me into them.

Check out Fred Perry's Gold Digger. He's no Scott Campbell when it comes to drawing talent, but he makes up for it by getting his book out on time and having gobs of buxom babes in wacky adventures. It's a fun book. Oh, I don't know if you're sensitive about it; but some of the characters fall into the "furry" category. :p

Hell dude, you're in Cleveland. I got some issues I picked up, but got no need to keep. I'll just give them to you if you're interested.
 

GDGF

Soothsayer
Is Gold Digger still around? I was under the impression that Antarctic Press went under a while back.

I used to love that book.

If I can find it, I'll probably start reading it again, actually.


(you got me back into comics. it was that easy)
 
It's still around. Now it's in full color.

Just to spite the rest of these comic wankers, Perry writes, draws, and colors the book. One of the hardest working unappreciated guys in comics today. No doubt.
 

Timo

Member
i pretty much just buy trades. i can never keep up with a comic because i can't go to the comic shop every month. and usually you get a little extra with tpb, like art and creator thoughts. and it doesn't have all the ad's in it.
 
TToB: There's something I've always wondered about with the Japanese manga industry...

If the various manga properties weren't creator-owned, or if more creators allowed others to continue on with their creations after they themselves had retired, lost interest, or became too busy (like Go Nagai has, for example), do you think there would be nearly as much trash on the market? Because the industry is just sooooo freakin' huge, and there's a lot of great work being put out there... but unfortunately, it looks like there's a lot of crap that's remarkably similar to other, more popular manga both past and present.
 

Asbel

Member
Deathnote is about a high school Japanese student
You know, I wanted to stop reading right there. It's just silly for a highschooler to be matching wits with an investigator, which tells me they want to market this book towards highschoolers. Of course, I could be wrong since I haven't read the book and to be fair, DKR was more flash than substance but still highly regarded anyway.
 
If the various manga properties weren't creator-owned, or if more creators allowed others to continue on with their creations after they themselves had retired, lost interest, or became too busy (like Go Nagai has, for example), do you think there would be nearly as much trash on the market? Because the industry is just sooooo freakin' huge, and there's a lot of great work being put out there... but unfortunately, it looks like there's a lot of crap that's remarkably similar to other, more popular manga both past and present.

Y'know what - I'll take a pile of shit Erik Larsen owns, over a pile of shit that's a publicly traded commodity.

Any way you look at it Spike, I can't see anything particularly bad about the Japanese comic market. There is a respect for the actual creators, and there are constantly new ideas.

Who really cares if Dragonball Z is Yu Yu Hakusho is Naruto is whatever is next for colored fireball shooting martial artists, the point is - it's still better than having to start Spiderman over from square one every so many years to keep interest in the title.

Don't construe my hate for Corporate Comics as hate for The Icons they drag down. I love Superman, Captain America, Ghost Rider, and Swamp Thing to name a few. But their creators have died, or moved on in anger, their time as characters has passed. There's no place for them in today's world.

So yeah, you could say that every shonen manga title is the same at the end of the day; but at least it's in new trappings. More importantly, the Japanese comic market didn't limit itself to just boys power fantasy comics. Read Dreamland Japan and Manga! Manga! (You get bonus points if you can track down a copy of The Storm Front Journal - Doujinshi, the Alternative Publishing Medium of Japan) I'm not baselessly fellating the collective Japanese dong. There's a reason why I know their comic market is great, and creator ownership is just part of it.

I'd also like to learn more about the European comic market, which I hear is just as diverse and thriving. Unfortunately there is not a wealth of information available on it, so my hand is forced to using Japan as the proper business model.

Having said all that - that doesn't stop new Japanese creators from trying their hands at Cutey Honey or Lupin with the creators approval. So in a way, Japan still has legacy "issues" with certain characters. The good news is, if these new stories tank - the market doesn't suffer for it.
 

Wendo

Vasectomember
The reason I stopped buying comics was because Costco stopped carrying them. My parents used to go there every month, and I'd always run over to the book section. They'd have these "comic packs" that were like 20 comics for $10, and they were basically just a compilation of all of the books that DC or Marvel was putting out that month. So you'd get Batman, Detective Comics, Catwoman, Robin, Justice League America, Justice League International, Guy Gardner, Flash, Green Lantern, Showcase '94, and a bunch of other ones.

I absolutely loved those things. You could sit down and read comics for like four hours straight. And it was easy to stay on top of things too- I just bought the "comic pack" every month, and I had all of the comics I needed to stay on top of storylines.

I tried to buy seperate comics for a little while, but it was just way too much of a hassle, and too damn expensive.

Another thing that was cool about the early 90's was that all of my friends were into comics too. You could talk about them, and you could trade/borrow them too. But then they all got into Magic and Dungeons and Dragons and crap (no offense to D&D folk) and kind of phased out of it.

Since then, I've been reading graphic novels that I can get from the library (which aren't very many). I have to say that although Knightfall was kind of clunky, it was a massive, epic storyline that really beat the crap out of No Man's Land and Hush.
 

Spike

Member
Okay, here's the main problem with comic books:

Casuals don't want a "comic" book, but they won't mind having a book in "comic" format.

A comic book, as is its history, is the same thing over and over. There's a filler issue that sets up a storyline. The action begins. Hero and Villan square off. Sets up the next story arc. Rinse and repeat.

This is the standard setup for superhero comics. But you know what? Casuals think of comics as superhero books.

Honestly, how can you blame them? What's pushed down your throat? Superheroes, because that is the bread and butter of these companies. Independants are too small to consistently produce something to match the level of the superhero fluff. How can these indy pubs push the title over the big marketing dollars that the superhero stuff gets?

I haven't bought a comic in a long time. Actually, the last series I collected was Bone. I want whimsical, not standard fluff that there's way too much of nowadays.
 
Ttob hasn't been reading The Ultimates.

Fuck you.

I paid money for that stupid shit, and regret it to this day.

Hey, know how I mentioned these corporations were misrepresenting the original creators intent with these characters? Look no further than the Ultimates.

If you want that sort of Superheroes All Growed Up story - go read Watchmen. It did it first. It did it better.

Christ Ultimates was fucking awful.

One of my quips about it is how completely ridiculous it was that the writer tried passing off Banner as a mild mannered nerd; when you all know what's going to inevitably happen - so I could give a flying fuck when he finally went off and started fucking their shit up. Way to make a whole bunch of Icons nearly unrecognizable and unlikeable.

Oh yeah - Kingdom Come is another book I suggest you read. It fires on all cylinders, is one of those rare seminal works, and doesn't betray the origins of the characters.
 

nomoment

Member
1. I want each issue to be 99 cents each, or less. Or, 750 page digests for $1.50. Toilet paper quality.
2. More issues about school girls, depravity, and perversion.
3. BIG fucking eyes, tiny, pointy noses.
4. No dialogue whatsoever. Just big fucking splash panels and a lot of speed lines. If there is dialogue, it must be minimal, and very inane.
5. Swords and ninjas. BIG FUCKING SWORDS.
6. Nudity!
7. Uh... more stories about school girls?
8. It must become a disposal medium, because lord knows, literature is only good when it's disposable.
9. More realism. Adult stories. Characters must have large exclaimation points on top of heads whenever surprised.
10. Talking pandas.
 
TToB, you just shat all over Ultimates even though...

The Take Out Bandit said:
If you want that sort of *BLANK* story - go read *BLANK*. It did it first. It did it better.
...could also apply to over half of the manga/anime industry. :lol

"There are no new ideas," right? Just fresh takes on old ones, on both sides of the pond. And you can scream all you want about the lack of diversity in the American comics industry, but you can't sell something without a market that's willing to buy it. And this is a business we're talking about here; until market research tells Marvel/DC that girls' comics, or historical dramas, or romantic comedies, or whatever are in high demand and can make them money, they're not going to take a risk and make it happen.
 
TToB, you just shat all over Ultimates even though......could also apply to over half of the manga/anime industry.

You're missing the point Spike.

Naruto may well be Dragonball Z with the names changed, but it's not Dragonball Z retrofitted to be Naruto. Meaning Goku suddenly isn't a ninja student.

What Marvel did with the Ultimates was just a disgrace to the legacy of those characters. That's not how Captain America behaves. That's not how the Hulk acts. So on and so forth. If you want to do the Ultimates, make youself some new fucking characters.

Yeah, sure there are no "new" stories - but there are a shitload of ideas corporate comics are missing out on. I'm not the most well read fellow on the planet, but y'know - I've yet to run into the same dull shit corporate comics foists off on it's illiterate readers in literature.

You're inadvertantly angling this into a manga vs. Americomi dispute with what I'm about to quote:

And this is a business we're talking about here; until market research tells Marvel/DC that girls' comics, or historical dramas, or romantic comedies, or whatever are in high demand and can make them money, they're not going to take a risk and make it happen.

That's quite alright. Tokyopop has proven there's a market for it and is filling the demand for it.

You can see Marvel making half assed attempts at this with stuff like Mary Jane. Hey girls! Don't like Spiderman? Well - we can't make anything original that caters to you, but here's a book about his bitch; and hopefully it will dupe you into just reading Spiderman anyway. :lol
 

DaveH

Member
TTOB has some good points but he's got too much semi-political fervency mixed in there for me to take it seriously... like a vegan telling me steak and hamburgers taste bad unless made of beans.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Unfortunately, while trying to make some valid points, TToB mixes in his stupidity with his rants. It's cute.

It's pretty simple why people don't read comics. DC and Marvel, arguably the ones that matter, spend too much time marketing and producing superhero books instead of focusing on other titles. For those that don't bother to look at anything on the New Release rack that doesn't end in "MAN", that's your loss. There's tons of mature, non-superhero shit out there.
 
Spike said:
Okay, here's the main problem with comic books:

Casuals don't want a "comic" book, but they won't mind having a book in "comic" format.

A comic book, as is its history, is the same thing over and over. There's a filler issue that sets up a storyline. The action begins. Hero and Villan square off. Sets up the next story arc. Rinse and repeat.

This is the standard setup for superhero comics. But you know what? Casuals think of comics as superhero books.

Honestly, how can you blame them? What's pushed down your throat? Superheroes, because that is the bread and butter of these companies. Independants are too small to consistently produce something to match the level of the superhero fluff. How can these indy pubs push the title over the big marketing dollars that the superhero stuff gets?

I haven't bought a comic in a long time. Actually, the last series I collected was Bone. I want whimsical, not standard fluff that there's way too much of nowadays.

Casual thinks of manga as DBZ and Pokemon books. Casual are always wrong.
 
I've been pretty much out for around a year and I really miss it. I'll probably go back to it eventually but that noise costs too much. Right now I'm only doing Berserk and Fable GNs (so need the Whedon Xmens) and its so hard sticking to it, I used to blow like $30 a week lol. Man, I miss Titans and Flash and Bendis and SiP but maybe I'll have hella fun in the back issue bins someday.

So ya lower the price or something, cancelled books make me sad(Captain Marvel, Supergirl, Black Panther(which I had no problem with the 3bucks because it was that fucking good) and assholes in the shop scoffing at the shit I buy fuck off with your bullshit because your taste sucks too!

I think me losing Supergirl, Transmetro, and Black Panther all in like what seemed the same year didnt help, they were three of my favorite. Shit now I want to head to the shop. :lol
 
TTOB has some good points but he's got too much semi-political fervency mixed in there for me to take it seriously... like a vegan telling me steak and hamburgers taste bad unless made of beans.

You'll pardon me as I'm approaching this from an angle that isn't limited to "Consumer".

I've also had some stuff published, and if I get off my lazy ass; I'd like to do more stuff.

Problem is - if you want to make a living at this, you have to work for Marvel / DC. That's where the money is. It's a very fucked up market.

What's worse, is that even ignoring the money aspect of it - not being a Marvel / DC book means retailers will be less likely to order your product. Regardless of quality, or potential audience. Reduced issue orders = less profits = your company goes under before your book can be collected into TPB.

Which is why I always get a chuckle out of the comic nerds that assert folks go to a comic shop. Nine times out of ten, that comic shop is going to be run by a fan of Marvel or DC, and will stock the books that guy grew up with, and the related titles. If you're lucky - there will be a small section for indie comics, and even then that won't be indicative of what the medium has to offer, as the indies tend to be the safe bets. :/

What this boils down to is a case of a gaming forum where people shit their pants at the prospect of EA taking over the software end of the industry, then going on to defend the EA of comic books like a bunch of little DarienA's.

Yeah, there are "no new ideas" so let's all read Spiderman and play Madden, eh?
 
borghe said:
I am hearing range (non-superhero), but really think that is covered.

But the only people that would know that are already reading comic books. How many people really know that there is such a thing as a comic book that doesn't feature superheroes? Most people's perception of comic books is that they contain juvenile stories, overly-muscled men wearing spandex, and ridiculously-proportioned fantasy women. If Marvel and DC have offerings that appeal to a wider base, they have to let the people know that. When have you ever seen comic books advertised on television? It seems that the comic industry(as well as yourself) expect the people to come to them, to go into the comic book store and see what they have to offer. That's the wrong approach, the whole problem is getting people into the comic book store in the first place. An aggressive advertising strategy is needed to increase awareness of books that may appeal to those who don't give a flying fuck about superheroes.

In response to the thread subject: I read comics from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. I'm not entirely sure what made me lose interest... it wasn't a sudden thing, I just slowly phased out of it. Thinking back, perhaps it was because my interest in fantasy novels had picked up, and they had stories that comic books just couldn't match. Not to mention that those novels were free at the library, and I could read them in one shot, no waiting for the next issue. Seriously, after I started reading real books, how could I see Spider-Man and X-Men as anything but mindless fluff?

This doesn't mean that I hate comic books now, I like the art a lot. But I really don't feel compelled to read the stories. What would it take for me to start reading comics again? I'm not sure. I am interested in that Bone collection for a couple reasons. One being that thread a while back about it got me interested(hey, advertising!), and the other is that the whole story is in one book. I suppose I'd be interested in titles that aren't connected to any comic universe so I get the whole story in one series... a series that has a beginning and end. Though people have already said this.
 

NotMSRP

Member
To sum it all up, comic books need to be more friendly to receive a more mainstream acceptance. Manga is more friendly to an average person than a comic book.

I think the industry would need an iTunes model to help itself out.
 

Asbel

Member
Himuro said:
Uhh....no. It's very mature, dark, and mind-fuck like.

He starts out as a high schooler but graduates, goes to college, and goes on with his life. In other words, the characters grow. And the reason his wits are up there with an investigator is becaues his father is a detective, so he's learned a few tricks. Not to mention the fact he's pretty much a genius.

And no, I would not say it is geared towards high school students.

I probably shouldn't have made that sound negative as being geared towards young readers isn't a bad thing. It's just so damn overused in manga to star a young protagonist simply to appeal to that market. So I wonder, why did the main character start off so young, why not an adult? It could be a simple reason like Miyazaki's, who sees adults as corrupt and thinks only children are pure and innocent enough to save the world.
 
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