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[codhand]

Who is moving the goalposts? My #1 "goalpost" has been about votes and money. On the former, Romney is by all accounts very close to Obama nationally. On the latter, Romney and the Republican Super PACs have out-raised and out-spent the Democrats by a wide margin.

C'mon Charlie, I know you've seen what the electoral college looks like right now. 347 all day.

 

[ggnoobIGN]

You really believe this is close?

SPOILER:

Spoiler

It isn't

If you get your political news from GAF, sure.

 

[Karma Kramer]

It's amazing to see people who support the underlying message of OWS claim it was completely ineffective, yet here they are debating about it on an internet forum. Seems like if it accomplished nothing than it wouldn't be a narrative in the first place. Not to mention the lack of appreciation for those who took the time and effort to get the ball rolling to the point of it being on national/global news.

 

[teruterubozu]

Manos' notoriety.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Which doesn't seem to matter given that national polling data shows these two at a statistical dead heat. He may be unfavorable, but that doesn't mean many folks won't pinch their nose and punch the ticket for Romney and Ryan in November.

A) It's a long game, and one that doesn't really start until tonight
B) Actually, the polling in Ohio, Florida, and Pennsylvania ticked 2 or 3 points for Obama, as did Virginia and North Carolina. National polls are useless.

 

[CharlieDigital]

You guys are getting way too cocky about an Obama victory.

It is indeed, a long game and we're still in the first quarter and you already think that our team is going to win?

Check the data: http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/ec_graph-2012.html

In particular, look at the data from 2008. You could arguably state that the financial meltdown was the single turning point that changed the course of the election because the Dems were trending downward up until that point. Now look at the data excluding states where they're statistically tied.

One event. One bad jobs report. One mistake and the tide could be turned. Easily. Way too early to call the win.

 

[Flatline]

1) They got everyone's attention
2) Introduced "The 1%" into the lexicon
3) Did absolutely nothing else
4) Let the protesters become the story instead of the protest.

Overall it was a waste of good potential

Not the fault of the protesters. That's what the media does all over the world to discredit protests and purposely ignore their message.

 

[dave is ok]

One event. One bad jobs report. One mistake and the tide could be turned. Easily. Way too early to call the win.

Maybe. But that's like praying for a Hail Mary touchdown at the end of a football game. I also don't like Mitt's chances in a debate.

 

[kittens]

Occupy has radicalized and politicized entire generations of people. That's huge.

 

[beastmode]

I thought it was pretty cool how people were just coming together as a natural community in today's world of living by yourself and keeping everything to yourself.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Occupy has radicalized and politicized entire generations of people. That's huge.

Radicalized? Yeah, right. The whole movement was entirely pedestrian. If you call that radical, then it makes sense why the Tea Party keeps grabbing the headlines.

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

 

[codhand]

Radicalized? Yeah, right. The whole movement was entirely pedestrian. If you call that radical, then it makes sense why the Tea Party keeps grabbing the headlines.

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

Joe the Plumber ran for office, therefore Tea Party = success, Occupy = failure? You don't even believe that.

Also, it's not cocky to look at state-by-state polling to suggest Obama will win.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Radicalized? Yeah, right. The whole movement was entirely pedestrian. If you call that radical, then it makes sense why the Tea Party keeps grabbing the headlines.

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

Thats not a sign that the Tea Party had an effective message though. It's just a more blatant sign of how money influences politics in todays climate. So to disregard OWS because they weren't able to sway corrupted institutions such as mainstream media is a bit absurd. It's hard to measure exactly how effective OWS has been because its supporters are primarily heard via the internet/social media.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Joe the Plumber ran for office, therefore Tea Party = success, Occupy = failure? You don't even believe that.

See the context.

Yes. Because ultimately -- even if the clown loses -- it means that he put his chips on the table and put himself in a position to win public office whereby his decisions could actually affect change.

Thats not a sign that the Tea Party had an effective message though. It's just a more blatant sign of how money influences politics in todays climate. So to disregard OWS because they weren't able to sway corrupted institutions such as mainstream media is a bit absurd. It's hard to measure exactly how effective OWS has been because its supporters are primarily heard via the internet/social media.

You don't get it, man. It all goes back to playing to win the game, man. You can be as loud as you want, but if it doesn't correlate to votes and money, fact is, your voice means jack shit. They can blow up the twittersphere as much as they want, but if those folks don't vote or donate, it means nothing. KONY 2012 is a perfect example of how "useful" or "powerful" (and stupid) social media hype can be.

Play to win the game.

 

[Eidan]

Radicalized? Yeah, right. The whole movement was entirely pedestrian. If you call that radical, then it makes sense why the Tea Party keeps grabbing the headlines.

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

I think that says more about the state of the Republican Party than it does about the Tea Party.

 

[Karma Kramer]

See the context.

Yes. Because ultimately -- even if the clown loses -- it means that he put his chips on the table and put himself in a position to win public office whereby his decisions could actually affect change.

Well then Jill Stein could be akin to that. So your point still doesn't make sense.

 

[RDreamer]

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

Here in Wisconsin a guy named Arthur Kohl-Riggs ran for office during the Walker recall. He was an activist that filmed some wrongdoings (one of the Republicans voting for absent members if I remember correctly) and was a large part of the movement here. Now, granted the movement in Wisconsin is not necessarily OWS at all, but I think the two movements fed off each other in integral ways.

 

[(._.)]

Not much at all really. I think their major downfall was that they were never 100% clear on what they were trying to accomplish. I agreed with their motives but they didn't have a solution or any direction.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I think that says more about the state of the Republican Party than it does about the Tea Party.

It says more about the success of a relatively small minority of people being able to affect a national platform and message through high voter turnout and cold hard cash. You can criticize the Republicans and the Tea Party all you want, but within their madness is a formula and a strategy for turning the conversation further to the left.

That Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are even a threat and that the Democrats cannot get a majority in both Houses of Congress would seem to be a joke given our population dynamics, but the fact of the matter is that the only people that matter are the ones willing to put their own skins in the game ($) and the ones that actually turn out at the polls.

 

[Flatline]

The fact that some people are trying to make connections between OWS and Obama is sad. Occupy made it clear that it didn't want to have anything to do with the Democrats because they're almost as corrupt as the republicans.

The reason why everyone from the media to politicians hated that movement is because they didn't manage to shoehorn it to their corporate agenda and the illusion of choice that exists in the political system.

 

[Meier]

Not as much as they'd hoped but I think it did do a good job of getting the inequality of wealth message out.

 

[Eidan]

It says more about the success of a relatively small minority of people being able to affect a national platform and message through high voter turnout and cold hard cash.

If by "relatively small minority" you mean the wealthy elite, then yes, I agree, and would go on to say that the Tea Party movement is thus politics as usual in the U.S.

 

[codhand]

The fact that some people are trying to make connections between OWS and Obama is sad. Occupy made it clear that it didn't want to have anything to do with the Democrats because they're almost as corrupt as the republicans.

The reason why everyone from the media to politicians hated that movement is because they didn't manage to shoehorn it to their corporate agenda and the illusion of choice that exists in the political system.

I agree with the sentiment, but the choice for 2012 could not be more clear.

 

[RDreamer]

Not much at all really. I think their major downfall was that they were never 100% clear on what they were trying to accomplish. I agreed with their motives but they didn't have a solution or any direction.

I think they were pretty clear on what they were trying to accomplish. They were trying to bring awareness to the fact that our political system is bought and inequality is getting greater and greater. The problem is that I'm not sure anyone at all knows how to solve these things. What I mean by that is I'm sure a few people know policies that would solve them, but getting those policies into place when the system is rigged is nearly impossible. The only way to change these sorts of problems is through awareness. And so that's what they did.

 

[Something Wicked]

I suppose OWS did teach me a few things:

1) A real microphone is far more efficient and far less annoying than a "human microphone."

2) Whenever another big lefty protest is planned, I need to purchase stock in the company that manufactures those stupid Guy Fawkes masks.

3. Even among the crazies, Ron Paul is not very popular.

4. "Lastly, we, the 99%, all need to come together- united- in order to defeat the oppressive capitalist masters... except for those damn homeless people, who smell even worse than we do and steal our pizza and drugs. Get outta here, you poor, homeless scum!"

Watching the idiots protest the '1%' outside the Amsterdam stock exchange, where socialprograms and fucking high taxrates to ensure quality of life for the majority already exist, was maddening.

Yeah, as for New York, without Wall Street and the big banks, Manhattan would become some soulless, empty downtown surrounded by very impoverished, high-crime neighborhoods... ...so basically, it would become Los Angeles, but with shittier weather... ...so basically Philadelphia.

 

[Flatline]

It says more about the success of a relatively small minority of people being able to affect a national platform and message through high voter turnout and cold hard cash.

That Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are even a threat would seem to be a joke given our population dynamics, but the fact of the matter is that the only people that matter are the ones willing to put their own skins in the game ($) and the ones that actually turn out at the polls.

It says more about how easy it is nowadays for the biggest "news" channel with the help of the Koch brothers and other rich benefactors to take a group of idiots and turn it into a political force using money and propaganda.

 

[elongation]

Politicized? How many candidates have aligned themselves with the OWS movement? How many have grown from it in a grass roots manner? Even fucking idiots like Joe the Plumber actually got himself out there and ran for public office and every Republican more or less embraces the Tea Party and appeases all of their bullshit.

If your criteria for political discourse is running for candidacy in a capitalist system, of course you're not going to see OWS (with its largely anti-capitalist narrative) embodied in their policies. Of course, this is a rather narrow view on what constitutes politics.

 

[Flatline]

I agree with the sentiment, but the choice for 2012 could not be more clear.

Republican vs republican lite?

 

[Karma Kramer]

It says more about the success of a relatively small minority of people being able to affect a national platform and message through high voter turnout and cold hard cash. You can criticize the Republicans and the Tea Party all you want, but within their madness is a formula and a strategy for turning the conversation further to the left.

That Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are even a threat and that the Democrats cannot get a majority in both Houses of Congress would seem to be a joke given our population dynamics, but the fact of the matter is that the only people that matter are the ones willing to put their own skins in the game ($) and the ones that actually turn out at the polls.

That strategy is using institutions already designed to spread fear and divide people. You keep making the equivocation that the Tea Party was under the same circumstance as OWS and accomplished more. Do you not understand how marketing support from the elite and mainstream news coverage/support from Fox News/AM Radio and even CNN/MSNBC etc (by giving their absurd claims of Obama being a muslim/anti-America intense coverage) and an unhappy conservative voting block is what translated into candidates/votes. Also how can you make such claims when there hasn't been any national election since OWS began. At least wait until this November because you write things off, but I would say that you should be even more patient because its clear the only true form of revolution will come from the internet, not TV news or the financial elite.

 

[CharlieDigital]

It says more about how easy it is nowadays for the biggest "news" channel with the help of the Koch brothers and other rich benefactors to take a group of idiots and turn it into a political force using money and propaganda.

Look, you can be all high on your pedestal and shit-talk the Republican base and their methods. However, you cannot deny that they've been extremely successful. The Tea Party movement has been a huge success in driving the country further to the right of the spectrum.

I don't care to criticize; I care about results. And, if in this movement, we can learn a lesson and apply to a movement that shifts the conversation, then we've won.

Mocking the birthers, Tea Party idiots, and the Republican politicians that bend to their will accomplishes nothing.

If your criteria for political discourse is running for candidacy in a capitalist system, of course you're not going to see OWS (with its largely anti-capitalist narrative) embodied in their policies. Of course, this is a rather narrow view on what constitutes politics.

LMAO. Keep on playing to lose.

 

[saltinekracka]

I had the misfortune of walking by Occupy DC while visiting the city. What a total mess that was. Dirty hippies living in tents and shouting obscenities about the government as people passed by. Also one was carrying around a mallet and a bottle of wine. Still wonder what he was up to.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

That strategy is using institutions already designed to spread fear and divide people. You keep making the equivocation that the Tea Party was under the same circumstance as OWS and accomplished more. Do you not understand how marketing support from the elite and mainstream news coverage/support from Fox News/AM Radio and even CNN/MSNBC etc (by giving their absurd claims of Obama being a muslim/anti-America intense coverage) and an unhappy conservative voting block is what translated into candidates/votes. Also how can you make such claims when there hasn't been any national election since OWS began. At least wait until this November because you write things off, but I would say that you should be even more patient because its clear the only true form of revolution will come from the internet, not TV news or the financial elite.

The election that the OWS should have affected already happened in the Spring, it's called the Democratic Primary.

 

[Monroeski]

I think that says more about the state of the Republican Party than it does about the Tea Party.

That strategy is using institutions already designed to spread fear and divide people. You keep making the equivocation that the Tea Party was under the same circumstance as OWS and accomplished more. Do you not understand how marketing support from the elite and mainstream news coverage/support from Fox News/AM Radio and even CNN/MSNBC etc (by giving their absurd claims of Obama being a muslim/anti-America intense coverage) and an unhappy conservative voting block is what translated into candidates/votes. Also how can you make such claims when there hasn't been any national election since OWS began. At least wait until this November because you write things off, but I would say that you should be even more patient because its clear the only true form of revolution will come from the internet, not TV news or the financial elite.

Excuse it all you want but the fact is that years later the Tea Party is still winning elections and OWS has disappeared completely from the national discourse.

 

[ReBurn]

It says more about how easy it is nowadays for the biggest "news" channel with the help of the Koch brothers and other rich benefactors to take a group of idiots and turn it into a political force using money and propaganda.

Change the benefactor and you can describe the rise of lots of politicians and political movements, really.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Excuse it all you want but the fact is that years later the Tea Party is still winning elections and OWS has disappeared completely from the national discourse.

BINGO.

 

[codhand]

Republican vs republican lite?

No.

Rape, vs "Rape"

Excuse it all you want but the fact is that years later the Tea Party is still winning elections

and all it cost them was minorities and women.

 

[Jackpot]

I'm not going to continue to try and say the same thing over and over again but I'll try again. The Occupy group has some grand idea that they are going to change the world and we are going to live in some Utopia where a wealth gap doesn't exist and everyone is going to be happy because we all live on the same plane of existence when it comes to wealth.

Prove to me a time in history when the people with the money did not have the power, and the people without the money changed anything? Never.

Sure we have had revolutions and and wars and tyrants get removed and replaced but guess what, who are they replaced with? People with the money. Money is power, and the people with the money are never going to give any of that power to the people without.

I ultimately was replying saying that OWS accomplished nothing, because that is exactly what it did. Nothing. Well I guess it got some hot chick with great eyes on the cover of time magazine and coined the term 99% but that is about it. But hey, you let me know when your paycheck magically goes up because the people on wall street feel sorry for you because they have all the money and you don't.



I just accept the world for what it is, nothing more or less. I do my best with what I have and don't worry about anything else.

Keep moving dem goalposts. Either way it won't change the fact that you claimed nothing had changed from 3000 years ago and you got your ass handed to you.

 

[Karma Kramer]

So what are you doing CharlieDigital to win?

 

[akira28]

Exactly. For a movement to succeed in its goals, the participants must take actions that have an impact on the outcome and not just pout like a little kid.

The Tea Party movement, for example, has been extremely successful because its constituents vote at a higher rate than the average citizen and it seems that they are better at enticing donations for their political candidates and causes.

This movement didn't have apparent leadership, no one to spearhead these offshoot programs that could have granted it movility. There were defacto leaders behind the scenes, people who others were listening to, following their lead, but no one took the baton on a medium to large scale, and I think that's probably necessary.

So leaders need to be elected next time, even if its just organizational for practical reasons.

 

[Sobriquet]

If you get your political news from the news, sure.

fixed

 

[.GqueB.]

So you are basing the whole movement off of some random nut? Cmon now.

You can't base the entire movement off of that one nut BUT that one nut was the voice of the movement in that instance. If you have no central voice then EVERYONE is your voice. With so many people talking over each other it becomes difficult to decipher just what it is you're trying to say.

 

[Flatline]

Look, you can be all high on your pedestal and shit-talk the Republican base and their methods. However, you cannot deny that they've been extremely successful. The Tea Party movement has been a huge success in driving the country further to the right of the spectrum.

I don't care to criticize; I care about results. And, if in this movement, we can learn a lesson and apply to a movement that shifts the conversation, then we've won.

Mocking the birthers, Tea Party idiots, and the Republican politicians that bend to their will accomplishes nothing.

Appealing to people's lower instincts as you target the lowest common denominator brings results but it's not what the political system should be about. Exploiting old people's racism to create the birther movement for example is disgusting and has the potential to backfire.

If you only care about the results you're doing it wrong imo and it's a very short term strategy.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

SICK karma on reddit.

 

[Anticitizen One]

It's not about accomplishing anything its about sending a message

 

[OriginofHysteria]

It's not about money, Its about sending a message

Sry, I had to.

 

[Something Wicked]

Also one was carrying around a mallet and a bottle of wine. Still wonder what he was up to.

Oh, that was Gallagher. The bursting of the Wall Street-infused prop comedy bubble really hit him hard.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Excuse it all you want but the fact is that years later the Tea Party is still winning elections and OWS has disappeared completely from the national discourse.

Well it's our responsibility to support candidates that want to get money out of politics and want to hold people accountable for illegal acts causing so much debt for the American people.

I'm doing that by supporting Jill Stein and volunteering... OWS did that by bringing up more awareness to the topic which created/creates discussions/threads like these. Just thumbing your nose at the movement and saying we gotta support Obama because the Tea Party have too much influence isn't going to solve anything as long as there are these systemic issues with our politics/government/regulations.

 

[fritolay]

I think this is the biggest accomplishment. I think they also made it clear that the tipping point of mass civil unrest is closer than the oligarchs think.

Yes when protests start, and then spread, it get's attention. The difference between that and then fizzling out vs going more mainstream and civil unrest is not something people want to find out that are against such things. Therefore, the point was made.

It seems it is important to keep people happy to sustain your govt and you don't want to get too close to the tipping point. This at minimum put some people in check with where things are.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Think of it like this...if the tea party was a small fire the occupy movement was a big ass fire extinguisher that snuffed that shit out.

 

[CharlieDigital]

So what are you doing CharlieDigital to win?

Voting. Making boatloads of money.

Appealing to people's lower instincts as you target the lowest common denominator brings results but it's not what the political system should be about. Exploiting old people's racism to create the birther movement for example is disgusting and has the potential to backfire.

If this is all you see, then you've missed the forest from the trees.

If you only care about the results you're doing it wrong imo and it's a very short term strategy.

To the victor, go the spoils