You guys seem far more impressed and enamored by the Tea Party than you should be. The Tea Party caused Republicans the Senate in 2010, the movement has high negative ratings outside of the Republican party, and has become a major weight around the neck of the Romney campaign. The Tea Party's greatest success has been moving the Republican party to the right at an even faster rate, at the cost of further alienating Republicans from the general public.
What did the Occupy movement accomplish?
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You guys seem far more impressed and enamored by the Tea Party than you should be. The Tea Party caused Republicans the Senate in 2010, the movement has high negative ratings outside of the Republican party, and has become a major weight around the neck of the Romney campaign. The Tea Party's greatest success has been moving the Republican party to the right at an even faster rate, at the cost of further alienating Republicans from the general public.
Karma Kramer
Banned
So it's about feeling good, (voting for Obama cause he will most likely win) and earning money even though many people aren't due to corruption in Washington (including Obama). Interesting moral choice...
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Shame you still only have the same amount of votes as those unwashed heathens at OWS
CharlieDigital
Banned
You seem to confuse "the general public" with "the voting public".
Only one of those matters.
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Wasn't that the American dream?
In a sense, you are ABSOLUTELY right. I always compare this movement to how everyone started talking about climate change. They made it about polar bears initially and the average joe thought... "what does that have to do with me?". Instead, they should've said "this is how doing such and such will save you money" or something else personal. Then you get Joe's attention.
The occupy movement had nothing to do with me. I went to college, took out loans, got a job in my field and I'm paying off my loans. I even have a little extra to take some improv classes. Why on earth would I stop my life to go camping at some park? I have no reason to.
BUT
If they had done a better job of telling everyone just how all of this affects everyone on a personal level then they would've gotten more people behind them. Instead it was "ARREST WALL ST" and "FREE COLLEGE FOR EVERYONE" neither of which I actually care about nor fully understand. It was such a clusterfuck that had nothing to do with me or many people.
Flatline
Banned
So what's the forest behind the socially retarded ideas and the rehashed and radicalized neocon crap of the tea party?
And the "voting public" is likely to voice its disapproval with the Tea Party as well.
http://www.democracycorps.com/Battleground-Surveys/july-battleground-survey/
elongation
Neo Member
The Tea Party is small potatoes when compared to the Occupy Movement. Occupy is worldwide, The Tea Party movement is barely across the US.
This isn't dickish.
if you spend within your means you can solve the deficit crisis around the time your grandchildren are having grandchildren.
OWS doesn't even have a large enough footprint to be able to tell what demographics they won or lost.
I remember thinking in the earliest days of OWS that it wouldn't last when they decided to take down their manifesto because they declared it to be an ever changing, living document. Far too wishy-washy of a move to gain any real traction.
Karma Kramer
Banned
That doesn't mean its message didn't resonate. They just don't have a leader that is also behind them on a national level, mainly because money = power in politics today.
The American people are definitely not satisfied with our government, politicians, etc at the moment, the only problem is there hasn't been another option that receives enough coverage for it to be considered a viable option in elections.
Oh so it's a pyrrhic victory? I'd wager OWS could give two-shits about demographics, being that a large percentage of its leaders were self ascribed anarchists.
Flatline
Banned
Funny how those demands seems preposterous to you. Why do you think that the Wall Street thugs who caused the recession shouldn't be arrested and why there shouldn't be quality free higher education like in almost every other developed nation in the world?
CharlieDigital
Banned
That's OK, I'd bet that those dirty hipsters are going to turn out at ridiculously low rates.
One of my favorite Charles Schultz comics:
Money is critical to winning. Winning drives the agenda. Organization matters. Voter turnout is more important than public perception and "feelings"; no matter how you feel about a subject, no matter how it polls, if you don't get voter turnout, your feelings don't count. Legal actions, where applicable (i.e. voter ID laws, redistricting) are necessary to tilt the odds in your favor. Rally with a purpose (stockpile money, register voters), not merely on principle.
You hate on the the message, but you don't see the methods.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Yeah since when did accountability for illegal actions become debatable? The fact that Obama has pushed that aside should be enough proof that the 2008 recession will happen again because the people who caused it suffer no consequence while the American people lose their jobs, homes, and well-being (health, education, etc).
My Uncle almost lost his house and business because of the recession... he runs/owns an architectural firm that designed/designs public high schools in Washington State as well residential homes/hospitals. He'd been doing it for over 40 years and never faced the kind of debt and hardship that he did because of this recession. Yet he also is footing the bill for the Banks/AIG that were knowingly responsible for it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
They managed to reinforce the stereotype that hippies are dirty smelly trespassers, while right wingers are clean, pick up after themselves, and get permits for their events.
Yea but arrest WHOM? Why not do some research while you're camping to make a case for how someone wronged the American public? How he wronged ME. There wasn't enough of this (if any at all). I agree that SOMEONE should be held accountable but tell me who so I can get behind something.
To me, the movement was all about the appearance. We have a library, people are giving us food, LOOK IT'S KANYE, oh look drums and peace. It was a trendy "thing". There was zero substance.
Karma Kramer
Banned
I'm guessing most of this you saw from mainstream news coverage. Also if you watch the film Inside Job it goes over the complicated 2008 crisis... and finally it shouldn't be the responsibility of individual people to enforce the law... Obama has legal teams for that as well as the regulators who should have done their job of upholding the law.
I see what you're getting at, but honestly if someone needs to be told how Wall Street shenanigans personally impacted them, they haven't been paying enough attention.
That really just proves the point that it's a political movement that didn't really accomplish anything politically.
The whole "we changed the dialogue!" and "our message resonates!" thing falls very flat against any true accomplishments. It's like hanging your hat on the number of likes your facebook page gets.
Good for them and their principles but the fact remains that their movement to change the system barely made a dent.
I'm not sure what you are referring to in that first sentence; I don't think the OWS had much of a victory at all, much less a pyrrhic one. There was no huge cost to their victory because there really wasn't a victory in the first place.
Flatline
Banned
It's not their job to do that, although they have a general idea about who's at fault (hint: start with Goldman Sachs). Their goal was to force the government to start a serious investigation and put the ones accountable in jail.
Flatline
Banned
Their goal was to change public opinion which they did. The political system is corrupt and controlled and it's the reason they confronted it instead of joining it.
Karma Kramer
Banned
How is a majority of California voters agreeing with the OWS message not a political accomplishment?
CharlieDigital
Banned
Because it doesn't affect the outcome of anything. California was going to go to Obama no matter what.
Call me when OWS swings Texas.
Exactly. I'll always remember back in the day when Zach De La Rocha (frontman for Rage Against the Machine) responded to critics that called them hypocrites and sellouts -
OWS preached to the converted. Sure they got some media coverage and everything but the excuse I often hear about how they didn't have money or politicians because that's all part of the system they're railing against and they didn't want to support that system just shows they really didn't know how to get things done. They relied too much on the hope that polls of people identifying with them would lead to everyone rising up to cast off the chains of the oppressors but the fact is most of their audience was content with just reposting political gifs on facebook.
See above.
Because a poll in a newspaper is not the same thing as votes in a ballot box.
Gotta go for now.
GillianSeed79
Member
Whatever happened to Occupy's talk of holding a constitutional convention? I figured they would have at least gone the Tea Party route and try to run some candidates in elections.
That's the thing. I know that I'm getting fucked over in some way. We all are. That's how business works right? In order to be successful, someone else has to pay more than they should or buy something they don't need and in order for those things to be cheap, someone somewhere else is being fucked over in some way. This is a reality we all have in the back of our heads but in the front, I'm living comfortably. I have a job, I'm paying my loans, I'm hanging out with friends, going out to dinner with my girlfriend. All of that injustice and unfairness is having no real impact on my life so in a sense, I don't really care about them.
BUT
If you can somehow make it personal or even emotional then you can possibly get peoples attention right? Look at what happened with that woman who got made fun of on a bus. People saw that video and reacted emotionally and as a result, she walked away with over 600k. Just based on people having an emotional reaction to what they saw. Those kids had no affect on them. We didn't even see their faces yet people reacted.
I'm not saying this is an easy thing to do but the occupiers barely even tried. They made it so abstract and vague. They never had that hook to make people say "yea... this is fucked up" and react to it in some way. Everyone is having their own personal struggles. Everyone has interests. Everyone has hobbies. You have to do SOMEthing to make me stop and take notice. Yelling "WE WANT THINGS FIXED NOW" at some park won't do that.
Why isn't it? What do you gain by NOT doing that? Or at least trying. What does "ARREST WALL STREET" get you at all?
Karma Kramer
Banned
OWS doesn't support Obama, nor does Obama support OWS... so again how exactly is popular polling in favor of their message not a political accomplishment? Some of you guys have set the bar so high you actually expect political movements to make radical improvements in less than a year lol
What has the Tea Party accomplished btw? Seems like the only thing would be to gridlock DC so that Obama looks weak. But it hasn't shown to be effective long term... it was just a reactionary turnout in 2010 due to economic hardship and a "socialist" "muslim" president. OWS to me has accomplished way more than the Tea Party.
Voting demographics aren't set in stone, though. I mean, that's the whole message behind Obama winning in the first place. Give people a message that works for them and they're that much more likely to turn out. And that's how you win elections in America, as you note.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
The Tea Party is literally astroturf. Well financed, well organized astroturf. Apples and oranges.
Think your taxes are too high? Well hop on this bus to D.C., we got a stage for you. Oh look, Fox News got the scoop on this spontaneous protest.
Don't want healthcare reform? Here's a memo detailing how to make an ass of yourself at your nearest town hall meeting and shut down any serious discussion. Make sure and act extra mad and sling spit in the face of anyone who tries to talk rationally or else Obama is gonna smother your grandmother with a piss-soaked American flag or something.
The Tea Party was nothing more than a Republican hail mary, a desperate attempt to seize momentum after getting curb stomped in November 2008 that unfortunately worked (perhaps too well for some establishment Republicans).
Karma Kramer
Banned
Accountability so that people in powerful positions can't cheat the system and gamble America's future down the tubes? If no one gets caught the first time around, whats to stop it from happening again? Should we not punish those who murder?
CharlieDigital
Banned
That is partially my point. OWS was ineffective because I do not believe that it shifted the voting demographics.
elongation
Neo Member
While this is not entirely untrue (they did kind of preach to the converted), they have been successful at getting the "converted" out of their homes and into public assemblies. Organisation is incredibly important for any movement, and occupy acts as a convenient banner to streamline organisation under it.
I will have to say that I was personally swayed (politically) by occupy, and I know of others who have also been swayed. I was probably already left-leaning, but occupy gave me an outlet - it helped push me into revolutionary thinking.
It may not be a movement to change the most dogmatic of opinions (yet), but movements must be given time to grow.
Karma Kramer
Banned
This is great summation of what OWS accomplished and why claiming it accomplished nothing is short-sighted due to the nature of time it takes for these kind of movements to grow.
- Noam Chomsky
CharlieDigital
Banned
This is why the left can't have nice things because of idiotic thinking like this.
"Hey, we got together and voiced our opinion! Let's pat each other on the back and call it a win!"
Until folks get it in their heads that only votes count, liberals will never shift the discussion more towards the left of the spectrum.
Karma Kramer
Banned
I voted for Obama in 2008... and I'll be voting for Jill Stein this election because Obama isn't a liberal.
No ones saying we won btw... I'm just denying your statement that they accomplished absolutely nothing.
elongation
Neo Member
Occupy is about transcending this pseudo-democratic capitalist circlejerk. This cannot be "voted" away.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Karma Kramer
Banned
Exactly... Charlie maybe you should use your boatload of money and support candidates that propose and stand behind real progressive/liberal policies... and if you don't have the money to afford to do that, then maybe you should join up with the OWS 1 year anniversary and try and lead/organize it better so it can "win?"
You're been a real dick about this you know.
But I get your point - "sure talk all you want now. But if this talk doesn't translate into action, what's the point?"
What's the chance that this will still be a big overriding issue in another 4 years in the next election cycle if it's not now?
Will OWS be a curious footnote in history, or will it be a sign of the times - a mark in the changing mindset of people, waking up to the insanity of the modern world.
The answer will rely on how the economy recovers in the next 4 years. If the system is truly fucked, we're in the new norm... yeah, people are going to be fucking pissed - and they're going to point to OWS as the turning point. It's going to have real political efficacy by that point in time.
If it does recover... people are going to forget about the movement plain and simple. Even when the underlying issues of income/wealth inequality haven't been rectified.
Given how fucked things are, and how everything is coming to a head in recent years... I think we're in the new norm and people will be pissed, and wealth inequality and all the things that go with that lopsidedness - will become the biggest political issues in the coming years.
I think it would be beneficial to explain the sources of inequality, and its impact on the economy as a whole in ways that your average person on the street can understand.
But OWS didn't happen in a vacuum, and it's not as if the economy was riding high at the time the movement began. The country was (and still is) suffering through an anemic recovery, with unemployment still at high levels, incomes still stagnating or decreasing, and the country experiencing a general hollowing out of the middle class and a rise in poverty. I'd argue that any person who needs to be convinced to "care" under these conditions wouldn't be impacted much by what can essentially be described as a PR campaign against Wall Street. If someone didn't know Wall Street was to blame at this point, or didn't care about the crimes committed in the financial sector, that's a level of apathy that could be described as "impenetrable".
They don't need to make radical improvements, just ANY improvements. Popular polling is not equal to votes. "Changing the dialogue" isn't an accomplishment when a year later the only time you hear about the 99% is in JPGs. Opting out of participating in the system of government you want to change is like stamping "politicians, don't bother catering to me with your platform" on your forehead.
In addition to electing politicians at all levels of government all across the country the Tea Party has changed the trajectory of the entire Republican party. There are of course more than enough people saying that the change is for the worse but at least their movement has a change they can point to that's not a year old newspaper poll.
...that was caught in the endzone for a touchdown. OWS was a three and out with a punt.
Show me what they've done that's not a poll or a discussion or a gathering. Show me anything that has had a real impact.
The Tea Party has laws on the books and politicians in the legislature on every level from local to federal. They can point to documents and offices that are signed, sealed and delivered.
I understand the point that it needs time to grow, but that argument implies that they will be getting more done in the future. The problem with that is 1. accomplishing "more" implies they've already done something to build on but after a full year they don't even have any small victories on the books, and 2. at this point in the election cycle in which they should be building up to a crescendo they are further off the radar than they've ever been. I don't even hear about OWS anymore except for 1. on GAF during the periodic debates about whether they accomplished anything and 2. when Alexis Goldstein is a guest on Chris Hayes.
I see all the people saying they'll vote for Jill Stein, who is basically the de facto Occupy candidate, and I support that; I generally vote straight ticket third party anyway so I may end up voting for her myself. At the end of the day, though, I think Ron Paul and Gary Johnson will probably each get more votes than her and Paul isn't even running for office.
Now I really do have to go for a while.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
You can basically tell exactly how far to the right someone is by who much of a success they considered the Tea Party
ConfusingJazz
Member
wut.
One of my problems with comparing the Tea Party and OWS is that OWS was an actual protest movement and was treated with the resistance one would expect real protest movements to receive, and the Tea Party was a creation of wealthy Republican donors who wanted to speed up the party's rightward trajectory in the wake of 08's wave election. The Tea Party was Republican politics 101, and honestly isn't different from the Moral Majority which predated it.
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