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[Phoenix]

Firewire and USB TV capture and PVR solutions are lower end in quality and functionality then the PCI counterparts. NEXT!

Firewire and USB2.0 capture solutions are capable of capturing anything that comes from a HD source. There are entire PVR solutions based on USB2.0 and Firewire.

You do it yourself, and you've just voided the warranty (see Apple's warning at the site). NEXT!

FALSE http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946

Next?

My jihad is for the good of the people! Long live sanity!!!

 

[Shogmaster]

Firewire and USB2.0 capture solutions are capable of capturing anything that comes from a HD source. There are entire PVR solutions based on USB2.0 and Firewire.

Hey don't blame me for what the OEMs are offering. I'm well aware that the USB 2.0 and Firewire has enough bandwidth to handle the job. Tell that to the capture hardware OEMs.

FALSE http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=13946

Next?

TRUE http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

"5. Memory, AirPort Extreme and internal Bluetooth upgrades must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider; fees may apply."

NEXT!

 

[xsarien]

I never said they couldn't do those things. I just said that the better PVR capture solutions are left up to the PCI.

Either way, incredibly moot point since 1.25~1.42Ghz G4 is way too weak to encode 640x480 DVD quality MPEG2 in realtime, even with "hardware" encoders like the Hauppage PVR 250 (which uses up 85% of the CPU cycle form a 1.9Ghz Barton to do the same job smoothly).

Encoding and capturing are two entirely different steps in the process. I was (and still am) speaking about the latter. I don't think I ever stated that the Mini was the best for the task, that'd be pretty sick. But to "get the job done," it's fine. Just be prepared to likely leave it on all night if you're doing anything outside of outputting to a tape.

Like I said, I really don't hate Macs per se, but the Mac marketing philosophy and the Mac evangelists.

Look in the mirror, buddy. Strict PC evangelists are just as shrill.

What doe sit do? Is it cool? Mine makes coffeee and does the dishes.

It's a 3G case. Extended and hardened edges so the iPod, if dropped, doesn't even make contact with the ground. If it falls flat, there's a decent (not awesome, but decent) amount of hardened fabric protecting it. I'm not really fond of the cases made entirely out of tough plastic, the rubber and silicone ones are either too hard to remove or attract dust, and the leather ones are just pompous.

I wouldn't do any vid editing on a machine with less than 1GB of RAM as well. And that's why Mac Mini is such a apoor solution for it. iRonic that Mac Mini comes with iLife 05 as one of the apps to show off the system.

iDVD isn't what you'd use to edit anything substantial anyway, so it's just as well. Think of iDVD and Final Cut as Photoshop Elements and Photoshop.

More than just my opinion. All that space and only on 5.25" bay? no external 3.5" bays? only 2 internal 3.5" bays? These all add up to crap functionality, NOT just IMO.

There's only one 5.25" bay because the Superdrive covers plenty of ground, and at least according to arstechnica, you can get another hard drive into the unit before it's officially "full." Apple gave up on 3.5" drives long ago, what designs you have for that bay, I have no idea, but given Apple's penchant for putting a USB port on damned near everything, it may as well be absent.

A minor semantic note: You're not talking about functionality, you're talking about one aspect of the G5 where expandability is a legitimate issue. But if you're jonesing for massive amounts of hard drive space, Firewire 400 and 800 solutions abound. I'd also imagine that the Superdrive is easily replaced with something faster. Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried.

But one of us is delusional. Hint: it's not me.

Says the guy who seems to make it a point to come into every Apple thread for the sole purpose of trolling.

"5. Memory, AirPort Extreme and internal Bluetooth upgrades must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider; fees may apply."

Nothing about that says "But if you do it yourself, kiss your warranty goodbye." The (growing) word is that the warranty is only gone if you physically damage something during the process. The Mac Mini can be opened, I've seen the service docs.

(Hint: It involves, but requires more than, a putty knife.)

 

[Phoenix]

TRUE http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

"5. Memory, AirPort Extreme and internal Bluetooth upgrades must be performed by an Apple Authorized Service provider; fees may apply."

NEXT!

Nah this one you lose. I'd already talked to an Apple representative a while back about this a while back and they pointed me to this which makes clear that opening the machine doesn't void the warranty and never has. If you break something, however, that is not covered in the warranty.

 

[Shogmaster]

Encoding and capturing are two entirely different steps in the process. I was (and still am) speaking about the latter. I don't think I ever stated that the Mini was the best for the task, that'd be pretty sick. But to "get the job done," it's fine. Just be prepared to likely leave it on all night if you're doing anything outside of outputting to a tape.

Well shit, for a PVR, what the fuck is the point of capturing if it can't encode?!? HELLO!!!!!! How much raw footage can you shove into an 80GB HD if you don't compress the damn thing? We best move on before I pop a vein.

Look in the mirror, buddy. Strict PC evangelists are just as shrill.

I am NOT a PC evangelist. The only evangelising I've done on the PC is to build it youself instead of buying ready made sdesktops.

I don't give a shit if you use PC or Mac. I just get upset when a Mac fanboy waddles in and tells me that graphics must be done on a Mac. That's when troble starts.

It's a 3G case. Extended and hardened edges so the iPod, if dropped, doesn't even make contact with the ground. If it falls flat, there's a decent (not awesome, but decent) amount of hardened fabric protecting it. I'm not really fond of the cases made entirely out of tough plastic, the rubber and silicone ones are either too hard to remove or attract dust, and the leather ones are just pompous.

Mine's not a case. But I'll make sure that my product will work fine with your case still intact.

iDVD isn't what you'd use to edit anything substantial anyway, so it's just as well. Think of iDVD and Final Cut as Photoshop Elements and Photoshop.

My mistake. I thought iMovie was part of iLife 05. Anyways, If it comes with anything better than equivilent to Windows Movie Maker (something like Adobe Premiere Elements which is pretty damn nice for $100), then it'll benefit a whole bunch from 1GB+ of RAM.

There's only one 5.25" bay because the Superdrive covers plenty of ground, and at least according to arstechnica, you can get another hard drive into the unit before it's officially "full." Apple gave up on 3.5" drives long ago, what designs you have for that bay, I have no idea, but given Apple's penchant for putting a USB port on damned near everything, it may as well be absent.

If all that's true, then they could have made the damn case much smaller. But then again, if the G5 was up to snuff, they could have went with single proc and not waste all that space for cooling 2 little hot heads.

Regardless, it's a case (pun) of a esthetics over function.

A minor semantic note: You're not talking about functionality, you're talking about one aspect of the G5 where expandability is a legitiate issue. But if you're jonesing for massive amounts of hard drive space, Firewire 400 and 800 solutions abound. I'd also imagine that the Superdrive is easily replaced with something faster. Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried.

You know I'm all about expandability. I don't mind using external HDs for backup purposes, but having such a big case and having to rely on external HD solution is just bunk.

Says the guy who seems to make it a point to come into every Apple thread for the sole purpose of trolling.

You call it trolling, I call it a public service.

Nothing about that says "But if you do, kiss your warranty goodbye." The (growing) word is that the warranty is only gone if you physically damage something during the process. The Mac Mini can be opened, I've seen the service docs.

(Hint: It involves a putty knife.)

Yeah, the Mac market is ripe for putty knife wielding upgraders. :lol

 

[xsarien]

Well shit, for a PVR, what the fuck is the point of capturing if it can't encode?!? HELLO!!!!!! How much footage can you shove into an 80GB HD if you don't compress the damn thing? We best move on before I pop a vein.

If you'd like. I wasn't thinking in terms of using the Mini as a PVR, I was thinking of it as being a sort of portable editing station. Which, as long as you're going directly back to tape after making your cut, it should serve that purpose well enough.

I am NOT a PC evangelist. The only evangelising I've done on the PC is to build it youself instead of buying ready made sdesktops.

Yeah, I've got another bone to pick with you...

I don't give a shit if you use PC or Mac. I just get upset when a Mac fanboy waddles in and tells me that graphics must be done on a Mac. That's when troble starts.

Likewise, I get annoyed when people come waddling in and start pissing on Macs just because they personally don't see anything "special" about them, and only see an overpriced hunk of metal.

Mine's not a case. But I'll make sure that my product will work fine with your case still intact.

My interest is peaked [sic] (Hi, StoOgE.)

If all that's true, then they could have made the damn case much smaller. But then again, if the G5 was up to snuff, they could have went with single proc and not waste all that space for cooling 2 little hot heads.

Have you SEEN the G5 heatsinks?

You know I'm all about expandability. I don't mind using external HDs for backup purposes, but having such a big case and having to rely on external HD solution is just bunk.

Just buy a big, internal drive. The interface is SATA, you're not going to be sacrificing much.

Yeah, the Mac market is ripe for putty knife wielding upgraders. :lol

It's a little unconventional, but leave it to Apple to think different.

 

[Shogmaster]

If you'd like. I wasn't thinking in terms of using the Mini as a PVR, I was thinking of it as being a sort of portable editing station. Which, as long as you're going directly back to tape after making your cut, it should serve that purpose well enough.

Which bring home the point that Mac Mini cannot serve well as an only computer for the household. Just like the electric car GM pawned on the public a few years back, it's an idea that's best served as a luxury backup unit. No one would dare own only an electric car. The realities forced on them to own a "real" car on top of the electric.

True switch worthy Mac would not force any of these limitations to the potential switcher as their main machine, otherwise they'll never be truly weened off their Windows machine.

Likewise, I get annoyed when people come waddling in and start pissing on Macs just because they personally don't see anything "special" about them, and only see an overpriced hunk of metal.

The difference is, I'm here to bring people back to reality when the thread goes delusional. Notice I didn't jump in until something rediculous was said that needed to be made fun of. :lol

Have you SEEN the G5 heatsinks?

Yep. Huge. Much bigger than the ones AMD sells with the A64s. That's why you get when you don't have a fan directly on the heatsink. And it's not that much quieter than some of the A64 rigs I've seen. And now, they have to resort to liquid cooling, adding more cost, and making the giant case of wind tunnel mostly moot. Oh well.

Just buy a big, internal drive. The interface is SATA, you're not going to be sacrificing much.

I hate having just one HD. I'd much rather have several smaller HDs. Better for reliability (less chance of one HD failure taking all your data down for the count), and practicality (defragging a single huge drive is not fun).

It's a little unconventional, but leave it to Apple to think different.

In this case, Apple thought stupid.

 

[mattiewheels]

Which bring home the point that Mac Mini cannot serve well as an only computer for the household.

Yes it can. Not for you, but I'm sure your average user could get by fine with it.

 

[xsarien]

Which bring home the point that Mac Mini cannot serve well as an only computer for the household. Just like the electric car GM pawned on the public a few years back, it's an idea that's best served as a luxury backup unit. No one would dare own only an electric car. The realities forced on them to own a "real" car on top of the electric.

True switch worthy Mac would not force any of these limitations to the potential switcher as their main machine, otherwise they'll never be truly weened off their Windows machine.

I don't think you'll see Apple marketing this thing as a PVR solution. The Mini has about as many limitations as an iMac, and Apple doesn't seem to have any problem selling those.

I hate having just one HD. I'd much rather have several smaller HDs. Better for reliability (less chance of one HD failure taking all your data down for the count), and practicality (defragging a single huge drive is not fun).

No, no. You can have two hard drives in there. There's an empty bay sitting there, waiting for one.

In this case, Apple thought stupid.

No one ever said they were infallable. But their "failures" aren't forced on their customers, they're quietly killed and dusted under the rug. The Lisa, the Newton, the Mac Clones...Pippin didn't even make it out the door before that was canned.

 

[VPhys]

Finally, some Mac mini spotlight! I was wondering why the Shuffle was getting more attention than this

$229 including motherboard and PSU

also

oops, looks like someone already beat me to the Zen.

 

[Shogmaster]

Yes it can. Not for you, but I'm sure your average user could get by fine with it.

I'm not talking even for me (shit, one PC can't do the job for me either. I have to split it up to 2 machines. On for workstation duties, and other for entertainment). And I'm not talking about Walmart crowd that will use it for email and word processing.

I'm talking about using it for the apps that Apple packs the damn thing with! iLife 05 has iMovie HD (WTF, xsarien!?!) which is gonna run like shit on the default $500 Mac Mini configuration.

To run iMovie HD properly, we are talking about a $1,124 Mac Mini (1.42Ghz, 1GB of RAM, Superdrive, 80GB HD) before keyboard, mouse, speakers, and monitor. Even if you take a putty knife to the Mini, it's still a $700 purchase from Apple plus $150 on a 1GB PC2700 DIMM. And don't forget to get some external HDs to off load some of those footages.

Mac Mini makes sense only at an esthetic level. Everything else comes up a little short.

 

[Shogmaster]

oops, looks like someone already beat me to the Zen.

Exclusive for GA, here's pics of the guts of the machine I took from CES 2005.

Check out the heatsink from hell (I think Shuttle just beat out Apple for the biggest OEM heatsink award)!

 

[Phoenix]

I'm not talking even for me (shit, one PC can't do the job for me either. I have to split it up to 2 machines. On for workstation duties, and other for entertainment). And I'm not talking about Walmart crowd that will use it for email and word processing.

I'm talking about using it for the apps that Apple packs the damn thing with! iLife 05 has iMovie HD (WTF, xsarien!?!) which is gonna run like shit on the default $500 Mac Mini configuration.

You are nuttier than a bag of cashews. My wife actually has an 800Mhz eMac with 256MB of RAm and we took Snoopy footage (our dog) this weekend and imported it and started editing it just fine. It not what I would call 'incredibly interactive' editing, but it works and she wasn't bothered by its performance at all which was a surprise to me. People can get by just fine with slower machines - there is a reason why PC shipments have been decreasing recently among the 'upgrade' market (according to Intel information given out at their last Intel technology conference) and its because machines are pretty much doing everything people need them to do. The market focus for upgrading is pretty much squarely aimed at gamers and technologists.

 

[Shogmaster]

You are nuttier than a bag of cashews.

But am I just as tasty? That's the important question.

My wife actually has an 800Mhz eMac with 256MB of RAm and we took Snoopy footage (our dog) this weekend and imported it and started editing it just fine. It not what I would call 'incredibly interactive' editing, but it works and she wasn't bothered by its performance at all which was a surprise to me.

I call this "not enough info to be disproven technique". How long was the footage? From what? If it was a 5 minute 320x240 15fps MJPEG quicktime footage form your digicam, then NO SALE!

iMovie HD seems to promise more than such examples. It's got "HD" in the title! :lol Was Snoopy footage HD?

People can get by just fine with slower machines - there is a reason why PC shipments have been decreasing recently among the 'upgrade' market (according to Intel information given out at their last Intel technology conference) and its because machines are pretty much doing everything people need them to do. The market focus for upgrading is pretty much squarely aimed at gamers and technologists.

This argument would be fine if Apple was marketing themselves with "do your normal everyday mundane things like email and surf with a Mac" campaign, but the reality is, it has marketed itself as THE multimedia content creation hardware and software company.

Let me know if your wife's iMac can handle HD footage editing with iMovie HD without having her to complain.

 

[DrLazy]

I'd be interested if apple would make a mouse with two buttons. WTF. Perfect example of taking sexi-minimalist approach. Sure its good for beginners, but I don't need to hold the damn cultural key when I want to do shortcuts. Add a second button.

 

[VPhys]

I'd be interested if apple would make a mouse with two buttons. WTF. Perfect example of taking sexi-minimalist approach. Sure its good for beginners, but I don't need to hold the damn cultural key when I want to do shortcuts. Add a second button.

Or a 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

 

[Vormund]

Well you can buy any USB mouse and have it work on the mac....still that's not the point. Why do they persist with that shitty tilting one button thing is beyond me.

Btw i'm not anti-mac.

 

[Jim Bowie]

I'm talking about using it for the apps that Apple packs the damn thing with! iLife 05 has iMovie HD (WTF, xsarien!?!) which is gonna run like shit on the default $500 Mac Mini configuration.

To run iMovie HD properly, we are talking about a $1,124 Mac Mini (1.42Ghz, 1GB of RAM, Superdrive, 80GB HD) before keyboard, mouse, speakers, and monitor. Even if you take a putty knife to the Mini, it's still a $700 purchase from Apple plus $150 on a 1GB PC2700 DIMM. And don't forget to get some external HDs to off load some of those footages.

Shog, what the hell? You can edit/capture film on lower end Macs no sweat. For example, I just edited a 15 minute film on my laptop (1.07Ghz, 768 RAM, 15 free GBs of space) with absolutely no blurbs and pristine quality. And this is an iBook G4, no great shakes.

 

[Shogmaster]

Shog, what the hell? You can edit/capture film on lower end Macs no sweat. For example, I just edited a 15 minute film on my laptop (1.07Ghz, 768 RAM, 15 free GBs of space) with absolutely no blurbs and pristine quality. And this is an iBook G4, no great shakes.

You have 768MB of RAM. That's pretty close to 1GB. Mac Mini comes with 256MB of RAM and only has one DIMM slot. You do the math.

 

[fart]

ok, so i'm a huge fan of SFF personal computing, and I also really like modular, standardized hardware, but i really don't see the downside of the mac mini (other than a little bit of a price premium). i mean, ram is cheap, so that's not a huge issue. the internals are not very modular (optical spindle is LP but replaceable, and the drive bay is probably 2.5") but these are normal costs of miniaturization; look at any ITX or Nano-ITX ff i386 machine and you'll pretty much see the same deal, at a very similar cost. I think if anything the worst part of this whole bit is that apple is going to seriously downmarket this product, and use it as kind of a reverse psychology marketing ploy to get people to buy their overpriced integrated (imac, emac) hardware. as much as jobs loves integration, it is a load of shit for the consumer and the environment.

this stuff, quite frankly, should be apple's low end bread and butter. this is the only kind of hardware that will seriously grow their market share in the desktop pc arena.

jobs has this tendency of relying on flash and sizzle rather than solid engineering to sell product. it's how they've managed to marginalize their desktop market share to the current dismal situation where they pretty much sell hardware exclusively to graphic designers and photoshop monkeys. imo this mini is actually pretty solid. i don't feel the same way about their integrateds at the low end. (and don't get me started on the towers)

ps, i actually don't like the new shuttle zen as much because it has less noise dampening and more fans. they cut costs and killed the huge external brick they shipped with the last zen, and the cases have too much metal and not enough dampening plastic. the nice thing about SFF/ubiquitous hardware is that it should be overengineered (something companies like sun and apple are famous for doing and small taiwanese concerns are famous for not doing).

 

[Drozmight]

I went online and looked at how much one would cost with upgraded ram. ... ....... how in the hell does upgrading to 1GB = $325?

 

[Shogmaster]

I went online and looked at how much one would cost with upgraded ram. ... ....... how in the hell does upgrading to 1GB = $325?

Decent brand 1GB PC2700 single DIMM = $150 x OEM markup (x2) + $25 stupidity tax = $325

 

[Manabanana]

Replies this thread:

Most replies: Shogmaster: 19

Second most: Phoenix: 7

Shog, seriously. What are you trying to prove? We get it, you can make your own computers. Do they run OSX?

 

[Shogmaster]

Shog, seriously. What are you trying to prove?

That I wuv you guys. And that I own this thread.

But mostly that I wuv you guys. *kiss*

 

[Macam]

I don't give a shit if you use PC or Mac.

I really don't know who you're expecting to sell on that one, but we're not buying it.

 

[Shogmaster]

I really don't know who you're expecting to sell on that one, but we're not buying it.

Seriously, why would I care? It's your money.

I only care when you try to tell me that it's better. :lol

 

[Drozmight]

You should just challenge mac users to a duel.

You could also set up a cross country tour where you claim to use the power of christ to heal the victims of Apple Marketing.

"Bathe in the healing glow of cheap chinese clone PCs! AMEN! Be free of your affliction my brother!"

Maybe the mac user will fall over for dramatic effect.

 

[Shogmaster]

You should just challenge mac users to a duel.

You could also set up a cross country tour where you claim to use the power of christ to heal the victims of Apple Marketing.

"Bathe in the healing glow of cheap chinese clone PCs! AMEN! Be free of your affliction my brother!"

Maybe the mac user will fall over for dramatic effect.

Probably would work if I tell them that I am Steve Wozniac reborn.

"This is the good Steve talking to you. I'll free you from the influence of the evil Steve!

I built the first Apple for anyone to build and upgrade. The evil one has twisted my ideals into an evil empire of closed off hardware system! You must see the light and force the evil one to change his ways!

Functionality over esthetics! Can I get an AMEN brother!"

But then again, the real Woz is alive and kicking.....

 

[Dilbert]

I only care when you try to tell me that it's better. :lol

Well THAT'S bullshit. Let's review, shall we?

They would, wouldn't they. :lol

...and, oh, by the way, not a single soul had said a THING about Macs being better than PCs to this point.

Because more rediculous the idea, more the Mac fans swoon over it! :lol

So why ARE you really here in this thread?

To tell you the truth though, it's not that I hate Macs as much as I really enjoy getting you guys so riled up.

Oh, OK -- you just feel like trolling. What's that? You think there's a justification for it?

I don't give a shit if you use PC or Mac. I just get upset when a Mac fanboy waddles in and tells me that graphics must be done on a Mac. That's when troble starts.

Funny, I don't seem to remember anyone saying "graphics must be done on a Mac." Finally, you offer up my favorite quote of the night:

The difference is, I'm here to bring people back to reality when the thread goes delusional. Notice I didn't jump in until something rediculous was said that needed to be made fun of. :lol

Oh, I beg to differ -- you decided to jump in as soon as you saw the word "Mac" in the title.

 

[Shogmaster]

You are confusing the issue, Jinx. I only involve myself in Mac v PC argument in the real world if someone says Mac are better than PCs for graphics.

Here in the world of GA, I come in to make fun of funny things Mac fans say! For fun and profit!

OK, mostly fun.

 

[Dilbert]

You are confusing the issue, Jinx. I only involve myself in Mac v PC argument in the real world if someone says Mac are better than PCs for graphics.

Here in the world of GA, I come in to make fun of funny things Mac fans say! For fun and profit!

OK, mostly fun.

Wrong answer. Think about it some more.

 

[Shogmaster]

Wrong answer. Think about it some more.

Actually, there is no correct answer Jinx. But in your case, I would have accepted "Shog owns my ass".

 

[ckohler]

I've got some friends who are considering it for DVD creation.

They would, wouldn't they. :lol

Have you even used iDVD? Probably the best DVD creation software short of DVD Studio Pro.. and it comes free with the system. You're damn right they would.

 

[SteveMeister]

Decent brand 1GB PC2700 single DIMM = $150 x OEM markup (x2) + $25 stupidity tax = $325

This is just incorrect. MemoryToGo.com sells 1GB of compatible RAM for $192 with $7 shipping. Pricewatch brand names for it start at around $110, $120 (cheapest price for Kingston 1GB was $154 with free shipping, btw). And I'm sure if you shopped around at brick & mortar stores, you could find it on sale for less than that.

And as was established earlier, installing RAM yourself does not void the warranty. Apple has the warning you mentioned simply because the case isn't designed to come apart so easily. But there are already several tutorials -- video and pictorial -- on how to safely open the Mac mini's case.

And maybe you can put that 256MB DIMM you no longer need up on eBay and get a few bucks back

 

[tedtropy]

I really want to find an excuse to purchase the Mini Mac. It's got that damn attractive Apple aesthetic and just "gee, that's neat" quality. But the more I force myself to meditate for at least 60 seconds before instantly typing in my credit card number on their website, the more I feel the system is just over-engineered. Yeah, it's tiny and looks cool, but why does a desktop computer need to be tiny? It's not as though I'm going to be touting this thing to LAN parties. I think Apple could have made it look great and still be just large enough to accommodate more standard components (namely a standard 3.5" HD), another DIMM slot, and more importantly, a PCI express slot. I've seen plenty SFF cases that could accommodate a full-size AGP card, so I'm sure Apple's crack squad of engineers could've come up with something. Oh well, I guess Apple doesn't want to offer even a hint of competition with their higher-end machines. Too bad...

 

[aoi tsuki]

I really want to find an excuse to purchase the Mini Mac. It's got that damn attractive Apple aesthetic and just "gee, that's neat" quality. But the more I force myself to meditate for at least 60 seconds before instantly typing in my credit card number on their website, the more I feel the system is just over-engineered. Yeah, it's tiny and looks cool, but why does a desktop computer need to be tiny? It's not as though I'm going to be touting this thing to LAN parties. I think Apple could have made it look great and still be just large enough to accommodate more standard components (namely a standard 3.5" HD), another DIMM slot, and more importantly, a PCI express slot. I've seen plenty SFF cases that could accommodate a full-size AGP card, so I'm sure Apple's crack squad of engineers could've come up with something. Oh well, I guess Apple doesn't want to offer even a hint of competition with their higher-end machines. Too bad...

The Mac Mini is:
A computer for people with light computing needs
A computer for those who want something stylish and functional
A vehicle to push the iLife suite
A computer for Apple whores

i wouldn't mind having one simply because i'd like to become more familiar with the OS and i'm limited in space, but there's no practical reason to own one at the moment.

 

[hobart]

WHEW... read the entire thread (sans the back and forth banter that got pretty ridiculous). Many of you are missing the point of the Mac Mini... many have been said but some key points have not been made (having watched the Keynote helped me understand Jobs' feelings a whole lot better, of course).

Firstly, the Mac Mini is not your typical entry market computer. The POINT (first and foremost said by Jobs) of the Mini is for users STILL WAVERING towards buying a Mac to finally do so. The $500 price tag is a wonderful incentive to buy a computer that is (GET THIS) not intended to be your first computer. Why is this the case? As Jobs also pointed out... you can use hardware that you already have at home. Got a monitor lying around (or perhaps one that can switch between CPUs)? use it on the Mini. Got an extra keyboard and mouse? why not plug that baby into the Mini? Funny thing is... although people might say... I don't have an extra one of those!!! ...not true. Practically everyone I've spoken to (and quite possibly many on this forum) have an extra something or another lying around that can be used on the Mini.

The RAM is light... I totally agree. But if you equate the fact that for what it's intended to do (being a 2nd Computer) you can see SOME logic behind it. Personally, I wouldn't buy a comp with less than 512... For those of you wondering... with the educational discount, and 80GB, 512 RAM, Bluetooth and Wifi... comes to around $800. I could shop for the RAM for less... but I was curious.

Remember, also, Mac is marketing their iMacs as a first personal computer. They aren't trying to take away from their own purchases, but rather pick up more (2nd computer buyers both PC and MAC users alike).

**Side note: Please stop calling MAC marketers geniuses... it bothers me. If they were such big geniuses they would have more than a 3.5% market share on the personal computing community. They don't... and they haven't been able to stop:

Their decline in the classroom. That's right folks, Apple is now being kicked out of schools: grammar schools, high schools, colleges and universities. Apple has lost a significant footing in something that, years ago, they could bank on. The Mini allows them a chance to pick up some of their lost Educational Market Share. If there was ANYONE with extra shit lying around... it would be schools. For internet serfing, word processing, stable OS... there is no power greater than a $500 machine from a company that offers amazing discounts from buying in bulk. This was NOT mentioned during the Keynote, however, it is NOT a secret that Apple has been failing in the classroom.

For myself... I like it a lot. Owning a BT Keyboard and Mouse as well as an extra monitor.. I cannot see a reason why owning one of these little guys in not an option. I am currently on a Powerbook myself and, as I've stated in the past, have been incredibly floored with the results (and this is coming from a native PC user). Having a Mini with WiFi capabities and BT is just too sweet to pass up for me. Might even eventually cause me to pick up one of those plasma panels I've been drooling over since they were released.

For anyone who is looking to pick one up... I recommend not picking a Mac up until AFTER Tiger is released... I think my reasons are quite self explanatory.

 

[shantyman]

I really want to find an excuse to purchase the Mini Mac. It's got that damn attractive Apple aesthetic and just "gee, that's neat" quality. But the more I force myself to meditate for at least 60 seconds before instantly typing in my credit card number on their website, the more I feel the system is just over-engineered. Yeah, it's tiny and looks cool, but why does a desktop computer need to be tiny? It's not as though I'm going to be touting this thing to LAN parties. I think Apple could have made it look great and still be just large enough to accommodate more standard components (namely a standard 3.5" HD), another DIMM slot, and more importantly, a PCI express slot. I've seen plenty SFF cases that could accommodate a full-size AGP card, so I'm sure Apple's crack squad of engineers could've come up with something. Oh well, I guess Apple doesn't want to offer even a hint of competition with their higher-end machines. Too bad...

This sums up my primary feelings about it.

 

[tedtropy]

WHEW... read the entire thread (sans the back and forth banter that got pretty ridiculous). Many of you are missing the point of the Mac Mini... many have been said but some key points have not been made (having watched the Keynote helped me understand Jobs' feelings a whole lot better, of course).

Firstly, the Mac Mini is not your typical entry market computer. The POINT (first and foremost said by Jobs) of the Mini is for users STILL WAVERING towards buying a Mac to finally do so. The $500 price tag is a wonderful incentive to buy a computer that is (GET THIS) not intended to be your first computer. Why is this the case? As Jobs also pointed out... you can use hardware that you already have at home. Got a monitor lying around (or perhaps one that can switch between CPUs)? use it on the Mini. Got an extra keyboard and mouse? why not plug that baby into the Mini? Funny thing is... although people might say... I don't have an extra one of those!!! ...not true. Practically everyone I've spoken to (and quite possibly many on this forum) have an extra something or another lying around that can be used on the Mini.

The RAM is light... I totally agree. But if you equate the fact that for what it's intended to do (being a 2nd Computer) you can see SOME logic behind it. Personally, I wouldn't buy a comp with less than 512... For those of you wondering... with the educational discount, and 80GB, 512 RAM, Bluetooth and Wifi... comes to around $800. I could shop for the RAM for less... but I was curious.

Remember, also, Mac is marketing their iMacs as a first personal computer. They aren't trying to take away from their own purchases, but rather pick up more (2nd computer buyers both PC and MAC users alike).

**Side note: Please stop calling MAC marketers geniuses... it bothers me. If they were such big geniuses they would have more than a 3.5% market share on the personal computing community. They don't... and they haven't been able to stop:

Their decline in the classroom. That's right folks, Apple is now being kicked out of schools: grammar schools, high schools, colleges and universities. Apple has lost a significant footing in something that, years ago, they could bank on. The Mini allows them a chance to pick up some of their lost Educational Market Share. If there was ANYONE with extra shit lying around... it would be schools. For internet serfing, word processing, stable OS... there is no power greater than a $500 machine from a company that offers amazing discounts from buying in bulk. This was NOT mentioned during the Keynote, however, it is NOT a secret that Apple has been failing in the classroom.

For myself... I like it a lot. Owning a BT Keyboard and Mouse as well as an extra monitor.. I cannot see a reason why owning one of these little guys in not an option. I am currently on a Powerbook myself and, as I've stated in the past, have been incredibly floored with the results (and this is coming from a native PC user). Having a Mini with WiFi capabities and BT is just too sweet to pass up for me. Might even eventually cause me to pick up one of those plasma panels I've been drooling over since they were released.

For anyone who is looking to pick one up... I recommend not picking a Mac up until AFTER Tiger is released... I think my reasons are quite self explanatory.

But I find that logic kind of silly. Gee, I've got this 10 buck keyboard and mouse laying around, I think I'll buy a $500 computer to go with them so they won't be lonely! Plus, I can't say I know many people that have spare monitors laying around, at least not any that weren't already in use or good enough to be used for some consistent period of time. Sure, one could just buy a KVM for the setup they already have, but that poses the point that they ALREADY have a computer setup, and your average Joe Consumer doesn't want to keep double-tapping 'Scroll Lock' to flip between machines. They should have AT LEAST packed in a damn cheap keyboard and mouse.

 

[xsarien]

Sure, one could just buy a KVM for the setup they already have, but that poses the point that they ALREADY have a computer setup, and your average Joe Consumer doesn't want to keep double-tapping 'Scroll Lock' to flip between machines. They should have AT LEAST packed in a damn cheap keyboard and mouse.

Or, Joe Consumer can simply go out and buy a $10 keyboard and mouse. Also, plenty of KVMs have manual flips, so you don't need to do anything but push a single button.

 

[tedtropy]

Or, Joe Consumer can simply go out and buy a $10 keyboard and mouse. Also, plenty of KVMs have manual flips, so you don't need to do anything but push a single button.

Since they're so cheap, it again begs the question of why weren't they packed in. Personally, I have no problem using KVMs, I just suspect the average computer user doesn't want to screw with them. I can agree with the 'bring your own monitor' approach, but come on, let's not be THAT cheap.

 

[xsarien]

Since they're so cheap, it again begs the question of why weren't they packed in. Personally, I have no problem using KVMs, I just suspect the average computer user doesn't want to screw with them. I can agree with the 'bring your own monitor' approach, but come on, let's not be THAT cheap.

Apple's keyboards and mice aren't that cheap.

 

[tedtropy]

Apple's keyboards and mice aren't that cheap.

Bought seperately, no, as apparently Apple's plastic is dipped in the blood of Christ before being molded into products, but I doubt their keyboards and mice cost THEM much to produce. Thrown in with the system, I think they're getting their fair share of money.

 

[hobart]

But I find that logic kind of silly. Gee, I've got this 10 buck keyboard and mouse laying around, I think I'll buy a $500 computer to go with them so they won't be lonely! Plus, I can't say I know many people that have spare monitors laying around, at least not any that weren't already in use or good enough to be used for some consistent period of time. Sure, one could just buy a KVM for the setup they already have, but that poses the point that they ALREADY have a computer setup, and your average Joe Consumer doesn't want to keep double-tapping 'Scroll Lock' to flip between machines. They should have AT LEAST packed in a damn cheap keyboard and mouse.

The logic isn't I have an extra keyboard etc. lemme buy a new comp :lol

The logic is that I can buy a computer at a great price tag AND/OR it's ok that it doesn't have a keyboard, mouse, and monitor because I already have one.

I've been meaning to buy a KVM (with the button switch... BTW... they are out and they are awesome) and this might just be an excellent addition to it. I also happen to own a BT keyboard and mouse that I use with my laptop that I would be THRILLED to use with my Mini instead... I'm not saying that people are like me... but there are interesting alternatives to those trying out a MAC for the first time with an extra monitor (or yes, even a KVM)... and then some

*Although "trying out" something for $500 is a bit of a raw way to put it... I would hope that everyone makes educated decisions before buying whatever.

 

[shantyman]

PC fanatics/Apple haters are quick to point out that you have to buy a mouse and keyboard but never mentions that when buying a PC you MUST buy antivirus software if you want as usable system, plus pay to keep it up to date.

 

[SteveMeister]

Apple has quietly reduced the price of some of the build-to-order options for the Mac mini, and the Superdrive offered is now a faster version (8x vs 4x) for the same price ($100).

The combination Bluetooth/Airport Extreme option is now available for $100, which is a $30 drop. An upgrade to 1GB is now $325 (a $150 drop, but still more than you'd pay third party), and upgrading from the 40GB drive which is standard on the 1.25GHz model now costs $50 (a $40 drop).

Guess Apple is listening

Edit: Oh yeah, and apparantly Target online is offering a $50 off coupon on both Mac mini models -- but you can't take advantage of BTO options if you order from them.

 

[tedtropy]

PC fanatics/Apple haters are quick to point out that you have to buy a mouse and keyboard but never mentions that when buying a PC you MUST buy antivirus software if you want as usable system, plus pay to keep it up to date.

I'm a fan of Apple and PC alike, but I think ANY computer should at least come with an inexpensive mouse and keyboard. As for antivirus software being necessary to have a usable PC? Hardly. I don't have any kind of anti-virus software running on my XP machine at home and have zero problems. I use Firefox and I keep a copy of Spybot S&D installed but rarely use it. The best antivirus software is a shred of common sense. But yes, Windows SHOULD come with some form of antivirus protection. I don't blame the hardware vendors for that lacking on new PC, I blame Microsoft.

 

[SteveMeister]

I'm a fan of Apple and PC alike, but I think ANY computer should at least come with an inexpensive mouse and keyboard.

Yeah, but everyone always complains about Apple's one-button mice. Most people end up buying a multibutton scroll mouse anyway, so why be "stuck" with an Apple mouse you're not going to do anything with anyway?

 

[aoi tsuki]

Yeah, but everyone always complains about Apple's one-button mice. Most people end up buying a multibutton scroll mouse anyway, so why be "stuck" with an Apple mouse you're not going to do anything with anyway?

They could pack in a two-button scroll mouse you know.

 

[Timbuktu]

Since they're so cheap, it again begs the question of why weren't they packed in. Personally, I have no problem using KVMs, I just suspect the average computer user doesn't want to screw with them. I can agree with the 'bring your own monitor' approach, but come on, let's not be THAT cheap.

I can't be sure, but I suspect that Apple's margin on the Mac mini is so slim that it is by not including the keyboard and mouse that helps it turn a profit. I'd rather them cut more corners outside the box than inside personally, it's adding peripherals is easy and it seems that Apple's lowering prices all round to support the mini. And maybe keeping the keyboard/mouse out helps packaging and shipping costs? The mini is so so small, even inside its box you can tell that it's small.