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[ii Stryker]

I'll tell you as a programmer there is no such thing as perfect ai. You can simulate a character doing actions close to reality but a perfect ai would assume the character has its own actions and motives something not possible.

Also there's no real defination to the best ai in a game. If an ai is perfect, you wouldn't be able to beat it because it'll beat you every time. A perfect ai should technically see you from miles away and pull a headshot on you. Fear is considered to have good ai but what it really boils down to is FUN ai. Genius enemies < Fun enmies.

Ai has nothing to do with how much code you put. Crysis ai was probably the most complicated but it doesn't mean its the best by any means.

Nowhere in my comment did I say the AI had to be perfect.

For the most part games used to benchmark visuals often have the most dull SP gameplay.
All I'm saying is next gen developers need to put forth equal effort into gameplay and GFX.

I know this thread is about gfx, but to me the real opportunity next gen will be making games like Skyrim environmentally interactive and as densely populated as Assassins Creed with AI that's believably competent and doesn't spend 10 minutes hung up on the environment.

 

[Pranay]

No, they couldnt. RSX and Xenos are too weak for 1080p.
Also current gen GPUs, even weak ones, handles anisotropic filtering/MSAA/geometry/shadows/etc much better than console GPUs.


Lol, You know, that no one is arguing about it? No one is arguing that mid/late gen console games looks better than 2005 PC exclusives, just that high end PC games were in pair with first gen console games.


What? How? It looks miles better.

The Game is designed as a 30fps. So the movement and all did look awkward at 60fps.

 

[DCKing]

The technology that drives the games will continue to grow and evolve... the developers this gen have done a good job of pushing the tech where it can go - but they'll very much need to wait for next-gen working machines (at the very least dev boxes) before they'll be able to properly push the boundaries again for the next set of machines - they'll need hard specs and devices to test again to see the strengths and weaknesses of the machine.

In terms of raw-processing power, next-gen machines will *not* exceed high end PCs of today. There is no doubt about that.

But what consoles bring to the table is a large unified market to aim technology towards. In the world of high-end realtime graphics, this market is absolutely essential for defraying development costs.

Without that stable unified market of Xbox/PS3/PC, there's little point in pushing tech in directions that next-gen machines won't be capable of going.

If developers start pushing tech one way now, only for the next gen consoles to have a set of strengths and weaknesses that are out of sync with the requirements of your engine, you get caught with your pants down - limiting yourself to the high-end PC market. Which admittedly isn't a terrible thing for us gamers - but for people trying to make money pushing the tech, it's not a great thing.

To put it another way - developers can only really start pushing the envelope of next-gen tech once next-gen tech is available to push the envelope on. Of course that will mean long development spool up times like we've seen this gen - but there's little doubt that many developers will be able to get games looking better towards the end of the console life cycle then what we're seeing at the high end of PC gaming today. But it also means that you should expect the initial set of next-gen console games to look... disappointing.

And for the love of god, don't trust the videos they release that accompany the initial announcement of the consoles. Those are CG visualizations of what they hope they'll be able to make their games look like in the years to come. Hopes predicated on just a little more information then what we have available in this thread.

This post is excellent.

The leap next gen won't be spectacular, but it will most definitely produce some excellent graphics. It's a shame the time next-gen consoles really redefined good graphics is gone, but that doesn't mean they're useless when it comes to graphics. A console isn't just constrained by raw numbers (although it is very much a restriction), but by what developers can do too.

 

[Kinyou]

err no? It was made to show the rendering capabilities of the Unreal engine with 3 gtx 580s backing it up,

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

 

[RoboFu]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

They like to make money.

 

[Medalion]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

If you want to buy a desktop computer put together by Microsoft why not just say so?

 

[Shanadeus]

.

 

[Kinyou]

They like to make money.

Wouldn't those be less expensive in 2/3 years? Also afaik are they usually making the most profit with their licenses for games and hardware and not through console sales.

If you want to buy a desktop computer put together by Microsoft why not just say so?

Well PC gaf alrady treats consoles like PCs, so why not?

 

[Corky]

Wouldn't those be less expensive in 2/3 years? Also afaik are they usually making the most profit with their licenses for games and hardware and not through console sales.

In 2/3 years there will be better/cheaper alternatives that require less power and produce less heat, and I personally think the days of selling consoles at a big loss are over - nintendos success with the wii has played a part in MS/Sonys decisions with regards to current gen ( focus/heavy investments on family and casual market with the kinect and move ) and surely this will be true with the next set of consoles aswell. Which is just another reason why we won't be seeing "avatar" ( lol begin with toy story at least ) graphics on the upcoming consoles.

If the rumours about MS bundling kinect with the nextbox are true then I'm positive the leap from 360 to 720 won't be as huge as say ps2 to ps3.

 

[Dennis]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

Everything

 

[Unity2012]

This may come as a silly-minor complain or request but anyways, I am not sure how advanced graphics will be compare to today's generation; yet I hope they get the "hair" and "character skins" right this time.

It's kind of odd to play games where the environments look incredible but the characters we play look like they were carved out of a rock and use clay as hair products.

We've had the most generic characters this generation, most heroes all look alike in order to avoid the clay-styling hair situation. Only a limited number of developers seems to get it done decently. Usually they are the same developers who also offer better animations, which is another issue. Next gen, I would like to see better and more character customization , animations and overall variety.

Hey, I said it was a minor complain... wishful thinking...

 

[RoboPlato]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

Money, size, energy consumption, and heat output. Basically everything.

 

[Medalion]

Wouldn't those be less expensive in 2/3 years? Also afaik are they usually making the most profit with their licenses for games and hardware and not through console sales.


Well PC gaf alrady treats consoles like PCs, so why not?

But they sure as hell wouldn't want the same pricetag

 

[Corky]

This may come as a silly-minor complain or request but anyways, I am not sure how advanced graphics will be compare to today's generation; yet I hope they get the "hair" and "character skins" right this time.

It's kind of odd to play games where the environments look incredible but the characters we play look like they were carved out of a rock and use clay as hair products.

We've had the most generic characters this generation, most heroes all look alike in order to avoid the clay-styling hair situation. Only a limited number of developers seems to get it done decently.

Hey, I said it was a minor complain... wishful thinking...

I totally agree, if anything I'd love more focus on detail instead of "bigger better and more badass skyrim 2.0 the world is bigger than the universe plus speedtree on steroids".

 

[Kinyou]

Money, size, energy consumption, and heat output. Basically everything.

None of this sounds impossible to fix to me.

 

[Corky]

None of this sounds impossible to fix to me.

You are right, the missing factor in that equation is time. I'm sure you can have a console with the power of 3 580s, power usage of 100w and a price tag of $99

But 2020 is far away.

 

[iamshadowlark]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

You don't use pc parts in a console.

 

[-COOLIO-]

If you want to buy a desktop computer put together by Microsoft why not just say so?

i assume thats what next next gen is gunna be

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I'm hoping for a more radical solution to the graphics problem, much like the original 360.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

None of this sounds impossible to fix to me.

Do some research about graphics cards, then reconsider your statement.

 

[KageMaru]

i assume thats what next next gen is gunna be

You assume wrong.

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

Hahaha, oh wow.

Look, they'll be able to put a really powerful GPU on a lower process and they'll benefit from future advancements in GPU design. They can put a GPU in their next machine that in some ways is more state of the art than its contemporary PC counterparts since consoles aren't limited by any PC standard/API, just like Xenos has unified shaders and other advancements before they were available on PC.

What they can't do is put 3 gtx 580s in there because it'd cost them way too much and make their next system the size of a big PC case.

That doesn't mean that we can have amazing quality graphics on next gen consoles; we will have that, but not by putting 3 gtx 580s in there, that would be stupid.

 

[jax (old)]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

LMFAO.

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

I see these PC demos as representative of an approximation of what to expect of next gen consoles. we may however still be stuck at 720p (hopefully at least it will be literal 720p and not up-scaled 664p or some other bullshit)

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

No, they couldnt. RSX and Xenos are too weak for 1080p.

No they are not, if you make simpler games that is.

There are examples of games running at 1080p/60fps on current gen consoles, and they are nice.

What's true is that both RSX and Xenos are too weak to have the most detailed current gen games running at 1080p/60fps.

Same thing will happen next gen.

Same thing has always happened on every platform an it will never change unless we create a machine so powerful that it doesn't have to make any compromises no matter what, something that may never happen or would take so long none of us will ever see it.

 

[Shtof]

If next-gen doesn't look at least as good as Samaritan, then I see no point in next-gen. The old consoles/handhelds/smartphones/tablets will do.

 

[RoboFu]

I see these PC demos as representative of an approximation of what to expect of next gen consoles. we may however still be stuck at 720p (hopefully at least it will be literal 720p and not up-scaled 664p or some other bullshit)

That is exactly what to expect from next gen. IMO

 

[Medalion]

So this is what Skyward Sword HD remake will look like

 

[Pranay]

I see these PC demos as representative of an approximation of what to expect of next gen consoles. we may however still be stuck at 720p (hopefully at least it will be literal 720p and not up-scaled 664p or some other bullshit)

Err Those screenshots are underwhelming. Some Current PS3 exclusives look better then that minus the AA.

 

[RoboFu]

Err Those screenshots are underwhelming. Some Current PS3 exclusives look better then that minus the AA.

its not the content its the tech in them. the clean look. The use of polys instead of normal maps.

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

Err Those screenshots are underwhelming. Some Current PS3 exclusives look better then that minus the AA.

we'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

 

[diztrukted]

so much bloom in those pics

 

[abuC]

Err Those screenshots are underwhelming. Some Current PS3 exclusives look better then that minus the AA.

You have to see it in motion, I run the Unigine between 51-55fps and it looks excellent.

 

[KageMaru]

Err Those screenshots are underwhelming. Some Current PS3 exclusives look better then that minus the AA.

lol

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Microsoft is going to design a chip that will be very compute shader and tessellation heavy to help streamline production.

Their goal is to create a pipeline where artists can use programs like mudbox/zbrush so they're no longer required to swtich between modeling software, to a texturing software. This cuts down on the amount of exporting and compiling that's required.

With compute shaders they are also giving programmers the abilty to right more code directly for the gpu, allowing for better simulation of various systems, like bipedal movement, physics simulation etc. This allows animators to focus on more important content creation then creating run animations for the nth amount of characters in a game.

it also allows for more advanced post processing effect.

 

[soulassssns]

At lower resolution, presumably.

I don't think so. They all seemed to push the whole 1080P thing this gen but very little actually did do 1080P. I believe we will see a mandatory 1080P resolution next gen.

 

[Pranay]

looks good in motion.

 

[IcyBlueStrawberry]

The technology that drives the games will continue to grow and evolve... the developers this gen have done a good job of pushing the tech where it can go - but they'll very much need to wait for next-gen working machines (at the very least dev boxes) before they'll be able to properly push the boundaries again for the next set of machines - they'll need hard specs and devices to test again to see the strengths and weaknesses of the machine.

In terms of raw-processing power, next-gen machines will *not* exceed high end PCs of today. There is no doubt about that.

But what consoles bring to the table is a large unified market to aim technology towards. In the world of high-end realtime graphics, this market is absolutely essential for defraying development costs.

Without that stable unified market of Xbox/PS3/PC, there's little point in pushing tech in directions that next-gen machines won't be capable of going.

If developers start pushing tech one way now, only for the next gen consoles to have a set of strengths and weaknesses that are out of sync with the requirements of your engine, you get caught with your pants down - limiting yourself to the high-end PC market. Which admittedly isn't a terrible thing for us gamers - but for people trying to make money pushing the tech, it's not a great thing.

To put it another way - developers can only really start pushing the envelope of next-gen tech once next-gen tech is available to push the envelope on. Of course that will mean long development spool up times like we've seen this gen - but there's little doubt that many developers will be able to get games looking better towards the end of the console life cycle then what we're seeing at the high end of PC gaming today. But it also means that you should expect the initial set of next-gen console games to look... disappointing.

And for the love of god, don't trust the videos they release that accompany the initial announcement of the consoles. Those are CG visualizations of what they hope they'll be able to make their games look like in the years to come. Hopes predicated on just a little more information then what we have available in this thread.

I haven't read every single post in the thread thus far, but this is the only one I've seen that doesn't fill me with the desire to stop playing games .

 

[jim-jam bongs]

People will be disappointed, not because the next consoles will necessarily be lacking the power of high-end PC hardware, but more because we're well and truly in the diminishing returns phase of real-time graphics. Tesselation is the current hotness, but outside getting way up close and angling your camera for the perfect bumpy screenshot it just makes everything look better without being jaw-dropping.

To be frank, the things which make real-time graphics look like CG are all related to image quality and those things are the areas most likely to be skimped upon. Even a game like Saints Row: The Third, which isn't a graphical showcase or anything, takes on a CG-like appearance at 1080p with 8xMSAA+FXAA and all options on.

 

[VanWinkle]

Doom 3 on PC with 2005 PC hardware:

Killzone 3 on PS3 with 2005 hardware:

We have to keep in mind Killzone 3 came out after several years of optimization on the hardware. Nevertheless, it was still on hardware from 2005. There is also compression on both images, but I couldn't find any cleaner. If anybody has any better-suited Doom 3 shots from hardware from 2004 or 2005, feel free to show me so I can replace this one.

What looking at past generation comparisons with PC's from the same time tells me is that I don't believe that consoles will ever match the IQ shown in PC games. It hasn't happened in any of the past generations. In all other ways, or at least most other ways, though, it seems like it was surpass it. However, by the time it does surpass it, usually there are games out there on PC from newer hardware that look better.

 

[iamshadowlark]

You're crazy. There is absolutely no reason to prefer 30fps over 60fps. "Cinematic-look" or "cinematic-feel" is a bullshit fallacy.

http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html

WTF is this shit?

Dude you are a joke, and your link is a real gem too.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

What's keeping MS from putting 3 gtx 580s into their next xbox?

They don't have to. According to Epic, Samaritan demo could probably be optimized to run on just one GTX 580.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Lol 250K is like what it cost to license the Quake 3 engine. I doubt licensing UE3 costs less than a million.

Per game, per year, or per generation?

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Doom 3 on PC with 2005 PC hardware:

http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/36/1245_full.jpg

Killzone 3 on PS3 with 2005 hardware:

http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img001.jpg

We have to keep in mind Killzone 3 came out after several years of optimization on the hardware. Nevertheless, it was still on hardware from 2005. There is also compression on both images, but I couldn't find any cleaner. If anybody has any better-suited Doom 3 shots from hardware from 2004 or 2005, feel free to show me so I can replace this one.

What looking at past generation comparisons with PC's from the same time tells me is that I don't believe that consoles will ever match the IQ shown in PC games. It hasn't happened in any of the past generations. In all other ways, or at least most other ways, though, it seems like it was surpass it. However, by the time it does surpass it, usually there are games out there on PC from newer hardware that look better.

This. Was there any game in 2005 running on the highest hardware that looked like Uncharted 3 or Gears 3? Crysis didn't hit until 2007. The hardware is only part of the equation.

 

[Vazra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr-YhHdeyDA

and at glorious 240p

 

[Xun]

Nothing here really impresses me just yet to be honest.

 

[Enco]

Microsoft is going to design a chip that will be very compute shader and tessellation heavy to help streamline production.

Their goal is to create a pipeline where artists can use programs like mudbox/zbrush so they're no longer required to swtich between modeling software, to a texturing software. This cuts down on the amount of exporting and compiling that's required.

With compute shaders they are also giving programmers the abilty to right more code directly for the gpu, allowing for better simulation of various systems, like bipedal movement, physics simulation etc. This allows animators to focus on more important content creation then creating run animations for the nth amount of characters in a game.

it also allows for more advanced post processing effect.

Don't do this to me. We all know that's not going to happen. The day we get a game of this quality is the day I eat my hat (one that I don't own).

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Don't do this to me. We all know that's not going to happen. The day we get a game of this quality is the day I eat my hat (one that I don't own).

the screenshot is from a 360 techdemo for mega meshes, you can watch their demo and read their paper's online.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E (watch in 720p)

running at 30fps.

and the global illumination they're using

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdcqtjlBWCE&feature=channel_video_title

 

[op_ivy]

I see these PC demos as representative of an approximation of what to expect of next gen consoles. we may however still be stuck at 720p (hopefully at least it will be literal 720p and not up-scaled 664p or some other bullshit)

i'm going to be sick. leave the vaseline filter to cheap porno please

 

[Stallion Free]

Per game, per year, or per generation?

Per game.