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[Litan]

I want him to justify his argument with evidence. If he doesn't have any, well, then....

As for your argument, it's predicated on the idea that Cap and Bucky themselves are superhuman when the serum could just have enhanced their abilities to what is considered peak human. If that's true, then T'Challa isn't superhuman, he just trained himself to be peak human, and that explains why he can fight on the level of Cap and Bucky.

Cap smashes through walls, jumps from many stories up, gets thrown through the air into vehicles, runs as fast as cars, kicks people away as if they weigh nothing. He's most definitely superhuman, as he should be. Bucky as well.

Wait until the BP movie. I bet they show how and why he is more than just peak human.

 

[The Kree]

Point to me where that herb is confirmed to exist in the MCU. I'll wait.

I say the distinction is necessary because even 'normal' humans can't do the things even Black Widow can do.

Until they actually say otherwise, the most you can say is that we have no distinction between what peak human and superhuman even is. Maybe in the MCU, if a guy trained hard enough, he could do the stuff cap does. It's unconfirmed at best.

Black Panther's movie comes out next year. It'll be in there.

We do have a distinction. There are superhumans and then there's everyone else. Black Widow you could probably classify as peak, which is attainable through training and conditioning as seen in her backstory in Age of Ultron. She was a normal human before that training.

Cap did not train to gain strength; he was genetically modified and then was immediately stronger. He survived being frozen for 70 years. He chases down speeding cars on foot and flings a fifty pound shield like a Frisbee.

I don't understand why you think a distinction between real world and movie peak humans is necessary. The extent to which you seem to need this spelled out is silly.

 

[akira28]

someone get Quicksilver some weed edibles and calm him the fuck down, and he's also not allowed to run, for everyone's safety.

also his eternal fascination for his sister Wanda just got 10x creepier.

 

[Veelk]

Cap smashes through walls, jumps from many stories up, gets thrown through the air into vehicles, runs as fast as cars, kicks people away as if they weigh nothing. He's most definitely superhuman, as he should be. Bucky as well.

Wait until the BP movie. I bet they show how and why he is more than just peak human.

None of that matters.

If you were to write a story where every person in a fictional universe can fly if they trained really, really hard, then it doesn't matter how fantastical that power might be to us as the audience. In THAT fictional world, flying is an ordinary, if difficult to attain, skill. It wouldn't be considered a superpower.

In the MCU universe, an 'ordinary human' can make trick shots literally no living person would ever be able to make with any amount of training. We have Tony being able to take in information at a process that nobody in human history has ever achieved anything close to. Tony and Clint aren't enhanced, so their abilities are the result of genetics and training by all indications. These real life impossible things are just what normal, if unusual, humans in the MCU universe can do.

If those impossible abilities can be considered human, it's not a stretch to think that so can Cap's.

Black Panther's movie comes out next year. It'll be in there.

Until then, but just so we're clear, the specific words uttered here have to be "Beyond what ordinary abilities allow", not merely that the plant exists.

Black Widow you could probably classify as peak, which is attainable through training and conditioning as seen in her backstory in Age of Ultron. She was a normal human before that training.

First off, BW makes a lot of moves that are not possible. At the very least, her chairflip in the opening of Avengers is beyond what human strength and flexibility could be able to do. It's not as impressive as the stuff cap does, but humanly impossible is humanly impossible.

Also, I'm pretty sure they didn't enhance her in any way. They just trained her, and then they removed her ability to make babies, unless I'm forgetting something.

Cap did not train to gain strength; he was genetically modified and then was immediately stronger.

I don't understand why you think a distinction between real world and movie peak humans is necessary. The extent to which you seem to need this spelled out is silly.

Yeah, but the movie didn't specify that he was able to do beyond what normal humans could, if they had been given enough training. His thing is that it just skipped the training.

I mean, this whole thing stems from the fact that this is (or was anyway) at one point the explanation for the serum in the comics. That it enhanced Steve, but only to the point where he'd be if he trained his whole life to perfect his body to that point. I prefer that explanation for the serum, personally. My point isn't here to say "This is the way it has to be", just that the idea that Steve isn't superhumanly powered, just powered to the point of what a peak human athelete could do in the MCU universe, is plausible because there is nothing in the MCU saying it isn't.

 

[The Kree]

Is he superhuman?

Is he superhuman?

Is he superhuman?

Is he super human?

Is he superhuman?

(Jogging 26 miles per hour - and not sweating.)

Is he superhuman?

Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery.

 

[Veelk]

Is he superhuman?

Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery.

I don't know how else to say it dude. Yeah, it's obviously superhuman to us, the audience, who do not live in that world.

And yeah, it's obviously atypical even for that world, if Falcon can barely keep up. But Hawkeye's aiming and Tony's intelligence are also atypical, yet nothing suggests them being enhanced by magic or science fiction. As far as anyone can say, they're only superhuman to us, not to the world they live in.

So can someone match Cap if they trained hard enough? Maybe. That's unknown.

 

[The Kree]

Say it as many ways as you like. The distinction you're making is meaningless.

 

[PdotMichael]

Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery.

The same kind of mystery how it is impossible for a way more advanced world to replicate superhuman turning technolgy from the 40s.

 

[Veelk]

Say it as many ways as you like. The distinction you're making is meaningless.

It's meaningful if you want to talk about whether Cap has superpowers or not. Relative to us, sure, he does. Relative to his fictional peers, well, that's depends.

 

[guek]

It's meaningful if you want to talk about whether Cap has superpowers or not. Relative to us, sure, he does. Relative to his fictional peers, well, that's depends.

That's a really weird way to approach it. Superhuman ability can be implied rather than stated outright. However, even if we're using your criteria, Steve Rogers clearly has super powers within the context of the MCU. There is no one who expressly doesn't have superpowers that has displayed similar feats of strength or speed. The distinction you're making is meaningless because even if it's technically "peak" human ability or something along those lines, those enhanced abilities can still be considered superhuman if we never see any unenhanced humans exhibiting similar feats. There's also the fact that Steve mentions his superhuman metabolism in First Avenger which is something you can't train for.

As for whether or not Black Panther is enhanced in Civil War, I think the Russos deliberately kept that ambiguous. However, they did go out of their way to paint T'challa as exceptional even among otherwise already exceptional people. Bucky goes through Sam, Tony, Sharon, and Natasha all in succession with barely any effort but is unable to overcome T'challa and is forced to run.

 

[Lifeline]

Fast and the Furious franchise takes place in your hypothetical universe. So that's what the fights would look like.

 

[zelas]

The number of collateral damage incidents would be through the roof.

 

[MrToughPants]

If we go by the MCU Black Widow would be the UFC champ in all male weight classes and turn Jimbo Hit n Run Jones into a pretzel.

 

[OldRoutes]

The same kind of mystery how it is impossible for a way more advanced world to replicate superhuman turning technolgy from the 40s.

It's not, though -- it's the compatible hosts that haven't been found If I recall correctly. That's covered in both Incredible Hulk and Civil War I think.

Bucky was enhanced a bit like Rogers, too.

 

[old manatee]

If everyone was like MCU Cap, fights wouldn't have any stakes.

 

[Manmademan]

I mean, this whole thing stems from the fact that this is (or was anyway) at one point the explanation for the serum in the comics. That it enhanced Steve, but only to the point where he'd be if he trained his whole life to perfect his body to that point. I prefer that explanation for the serum, personally. My point isn't here to say "This is the way it has to be", just that the idea that Steve isn't superhumanly powered, just powered to the point of what a peak human athelete could do in the MCU universe, is plausible because there is nothing in the MCU saying it isn't.

Your understanding is wrong. The super soldier serum has enhanced Steve Rogers well past the point where "training" will get you, and this has been the status quo since the 1970s.

At one point marvel's position was that he had "no powers" but at that point he was also using steel shields. The "indestructible" one was created retroactively by Marvel, just like his amplified physical abilities.

 

[JimiNutz]

If everyone was like MCU Cap, fights wouldn't have any stakes.

I don't understand this...
Fight now have stakes so if everyone was more powerful than they are now then why wouldn't fights have stakes?

It would be exactly the same but the fighters would just be faster and be able to inflict more damage to each other and the environment around them.

Fights would just look way cooler...

 

[caliph95]

I don't understand this...
Fight now have stakes so if everyone was more powerful than they are now then why wouldn't fights have stakes?

It would be exactly the same but the fighters would just be faster and be able to inflict more damage to each other and the environment around them.

Fights would just look way cooler...

I think he is just making a joke

 

[JimiNutz]

I think he is just making a joke

Derp...

Maybe some kind of internal joke that I'm not aware of. My bad.

 

[elrechazado]

None of that matters.

If you were to write a story where every person in a fictional universe can fly if they trained really, really hard, then it doesn't matter how fantastical that power might be to us as the audience. In THAT fictional world, flying is an ordinary, if difficult to attain, skill. It wouldn't be considered a superpower.

In the MCU universe, an 'ordinary human' can make trick shots literally no living person would ever be able to make with any amount of training. We have Tony being able to take in information at a process that nobody in human history has ever achieved anything close to. Tony and Clint aren't enhanced, so their abilities are the result of genetics and training by all indications. These real life impossible things are just what normal, if unusual, humans in the MCU universe can do.

If those impossible abilities can be considered human, it's not a stretch to think that so can Cap's.




Until then, but just so we're clear, the specific words uttered here have to be "Beyond what ordinary abilities allow", not merely that the plant exists.



First off, BW makes a lot of moves that are not possible. At the very least, her chairflip in the opening of Avengers is beyond what human strength and flexibility could be able to do. It's not as impressive as the stuff cap does, but humanly impossible is humanly impossible.

Also, I'm pretty sure they didn't enhance her in any way. They just trained her, and then they removed her ability to make babies, unless I'm forgetting something.



Yeah, but the movie didn't specify that he was able to do beyond what normal humans could, if they had been given enough training. His thing is that it just skipped the training.

I mean, this whole thing stems from the fact that this is (or was anyway) at one point the explanation for the serum in the comics. That it enhanced Steve, but only to the point where he'd be if he trained his whole life to perfect his body to that point. I prefer that explanation for the serum, personally. My point isn't here to say "This is the way it has to be", just that the idea that Steve isn't superhumanly powered, just powered to the point of what a peak human athelete could do in the MCU universe, is plausible because there is nothing in the MCU saying it isn't.

I think you're really confused about captain America

 

[richiek]

That's a really weird way to approach it. Superhuman ability can be implied rather than stated outright. However, even if we're using your criteria, Steve Rogers clearly has super powers within the context of the MCU. There is no one who expressly doesn't have superpowers that has displayed similar feats of strength or speed. The distinction you're making is meaningless because even if it's technically "peak" human ability or something along those lines, those enhanced abilities can still be considered superhuman if we never see any unenhanced humans exhibiting similar feats. There's also the fact that Steve mentions his superhuman metabolism in First Avenger which is something you can't train for.

As for whether or not Black Panther is enhanced in Civil War, I think the Russos deliberately kept that ambiguous. However, they did go out of their way to paint T'challa as exceptional even among otherwise already exceptional people. Bucky goes through Sam, Tony, Sharon, and Natasha all in succession with barely any effort but is unable to overcome T'challa and is forced to run.

It's pretty clear that T'Challa is enhanced in the MCU. He's able to break the grip of Bucky's metal arm while he's choking him.

 

[Manmademan]

It's pretty clear that T'Challa is enhanced in the MCU. He's able to break the grip of Bucky's metal arm while he's choking him.

the directors flat out say Black Panther has superpowers with mystical origins. This isn't a debate.

JOE:He is very well trained. He's from one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, so there's great infrastructure there; very technologically advanced country. So he's been trained at the highest levels to fight, but he also has his own superpowers, which derive from the mythology of his nation. Those will be explored more in Black Panther, it's clearly evident when he's able to fight the Winter Soldier out of costume, and go toe-to-toe with him, that he is an enhanced individual.

http://collider.com/black-panther-powers-explained-captain-america-civil-war/

The "joe" there is Joe Russo.

 

[caliph95]

I mean when Natasha who is supposed to be like the greatest spy was useless against Bucky while T'challa was able to keep up and forced Bucky to ran away not in his costume it's clear he is superhuman without the russo's telling us.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I think it partially depends on the nature of the fighting style, particularly with regards to how much weight factors in.

So striking based fights would largely be unchanged, except in instances where someone is unable to keep their footing - maybe a little sped up, but people would take hits the some way, and it's just that if an attack should take an opponent from the ground, they will fly farther than they do right now.

Now, wrestling would go kinda nuts. For a start, anything involving lifting - from uppercuts to the chest to suplexes - would be rendered dramatically easier because everyone will have grown stronger, but the any given person's weight would still be the same. You could pick up and throw Andre the Giant with the sort of lifting power Cap demonstrates in the movies. Meanwhile if you want to launch yourself into some high flying spin, you'd have more to kick off with. Might as well retire wires from low level stuntwork.

 

[Makai]

First punch wins. Instakill.

 

[Beerman462]

the directors flat out say Black Panther has superpowers with mystical origins. This isn't a debate.



http://collider.com/black-panther-powers-explained-captain-america-civil-war/

The "joe" there is Joe Russo.

 

[Budi]

I don't claim to know shit about this super hero stuff, but seems ridicilous to say that Cap isn't superhuman in the context of the world. When his origins contain something called Super Soldier Serum.

 

[ArgyleReptile]

The question isn't how the fight would look but how the scenery around you would look afterwards.

Property damage would be insane, a bar fight would result in major reconstruction every time someone threw a punch.

If all humans were Cap level of superhuman, wouldn't that mean we would create thing that would be more durable and capable of handling our increased strength? I'd say the property damage would just simply be similar to what we have now as we would have "scaled" the durability of our property.

I imagine the fights would just look like fights, probably with an increased spacing since we'd be able to throw further and jump further. We wouldn't notice anything superhuman because we'd all be superhuman.

 

[Rice-Eater]

I'm imagining scenarios in which if two guys got into a clinch, the guy in the less advantageous position would automatically use his legs to launch both he and his opponent high into the air where neither have any momentum and the upperhand on the situation. I figure that would be a better situation than having the guy in the advantageous position pick you up and slam you as hard as he can to the ground.

I think real life fights with super strength would have both fighters be afraid of the clinch and it would actually be pretty slow pace and even possibly even more boring than real life. I also think even blocked punches would still send us flying because that's just how it works in the real world. I'm taking into account that we'd probably have stronger bone structure and all so you could block and absorb it without taking much if any damage, but you still weigh just 150, 200, or whatever so the force being sent at you would be too much for you to hold your ground.

With all that said I think real life fights among Cap level superhumans would be pretty slow pace and maybe even boring for the most part as each fighter will try their best to avoid situations like the ones I mentioned above. But that would be for pro level fighters. Fights between nobodies could look pretty cool since they'll just go in on each other and we'll see all sorts of bodies flying from megaton punches to 10-20 feet powerbombs or choke slams since the guy who has a hold of the other guy can launch himself in the air first before finishing the slam.