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What's better?

Stinkles said:
Amirox, I don't know why you're getting so bent about it, obviously loads of people on here prefer a, b etc., and are in fact perfectly good gamers.
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Since memorization is arguably the most basic of all things one does to become better at gaming, I associate an inability to do such a thing with being a poor gamer. So far, my theory has not proved incorrect. Anybody who is a good gamer has never had an issue with any controller I've seen for more than a few hours. Anybody who is a shitty gamer or who is never very accustomed, though, no matter what controller I give them they're all "oh hey, what was this again? can you repeat that? so it's square this time? Oh, it's A?"

In the end it's only going to be anecdotal in terms of speed of memorization, but I think that if you can't remember some of the most basic shapes in all the world [or letters, or numbers, or whatever], there's a problem. Back to the drawing board, as they say.
 
dog$ said:
image_giz.jpg
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Thats just awful :lol
 
They should create buttons that emitt an odour so you have different smells for different buttons.
smells > letters > symbols
 
SolidSnakex said:
They need to change them all except for the circle button. What the hell were they thinking with that? Dots, lines and waves lines?
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Well dots are easy. They form a square. So it's basically just another way to draw a "Square" symbol and not be associated with a PlayStation controller.
 
Amir0x said:
In the end it's only going to be anecdotal in terms of speed of memorization, but I think that if you can't remember some of the most basic shapes in all the world [or letters, or numbers, or whatever], there's a problem. Back to the drawing board, as they say.
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It's more than remembering the shapes; it's remembering their order.

Letters and numbers have natural orders. Shapes don't. That's the problem.

And that's why, despite you accusing them of being lousy gamers, many here (read: hardcore gamers) still have trouble with the PlayStation button layout more than a decade after it was introduced.
 
SKOPE said:
It's more than remembering the shapes; it's remembering their order.

Letters and numbers have natural orders. Shapes don't. That's the problem.

And that's why, despite you accusing them of being lousy gamers, many here (read: hardcore gamers) still have trouble with the PlayStation button layout more than a decade after it was introduced.
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To this day I have never associated any single controller, letter or symbol, with some order they should be going in. Because controllers aren't necessarily labeled by order, regardless of where you're drawing from. An A might be 'here' one controller, a 'Z' might be there on another. If that's how you memorize things, you're always gonna have an issue. It's just a few assigned labels for memorization. Associate position with its label, and never look down again. It is seriously the simplest thing ever.

So I reiterate: If memorizing, the most basic of all gaming functions (or fundamentals, if you will) is something you have a problem with, you can't be that good of a gamer! Hardcore or not!
 
SKOPE said:
It's more than remembering the shapes; it's remembering their order.

Letters and numbers have natural orders. Shapes don't. That's the problem.

And that's why, despite you accusing them of being lousy gamers, many here (read: hardcore gamers) still have trouble with the PlayStation button layout more than a decade after it was introduced.
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then they obviously don't have very much experience with it. I can't imagine someone who plays psx/ps2 regularly having difficulty with the controller beyond an initial learning period.

if natural order mattered that much, then why aren't keyboards designed that way?
 
SKOPE said:
.

Letters and numbers have natural orders. Shapes don't. That's the problem.
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Letters and numbers do have natural orders in our brains. Its just that that order is not:
X
Y A
B
It would be instead:
ABXY.

Edit: I do mean for us of the Occidental persuasion. it makes perfect sense in Japan where it was created.
 
h1nch said:
if natural order mattered that much, then why aren't keyboards designed that way?
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Keyboards were designed to slow people down when typewriters were first introduced. There is actually a natural order, its just that keyboards are specifiacally designed to obsfucate that.
 
I know one thing...most casual gamers I know mess up the a --> b choice initially on nintendo games because they are not placed in the "natural order" for a western user. Maybe that's why I still hit them wrong occasionally.
 
jedimike said:
The symbols are my reason for never buying a Playstation and is also why I think the DS absolutely sucks.
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Err, what? If you're serious, the DS uses letters.

EDIT - I personally could care less one way or the other. It did take me a bit of time to remember which sides circle and square were on at first, but I'm used to it now.
 
Stinkles said:
Circle - one line
X - two lines
Triangle - Three lines
Square - four lines

Remember it like that! See? EASY!


Amirox, I don't know why you're getting so bent about it, obviously loads of people on here prefer a, b etc., and are in fact perfectly good gamers. I don't care about the symbols except in the following scenario:

"Hey, Stinkles, which button is block?"

Looks down.

"Square!"
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I completely agree.

I also like controllers with the standard colored button placement (A-Green, B-Red, X-Blue, Y-Yellow.)
 
Keyboards were actually designed so that there wasn't too much typing to be done with one hand - with all those mechanical bars flying all over the place, it'd be much easier to jam a typewriter up if all the commonly used letters were on one side. The keyboard layout came about as a way to get people to alternate using their left and right hands with each keystroke.

Oh hey do I get +10 Fanboy Points if I say ABCD > ABXY?
 
Amir0x said:
To this day I have never associated any single controller, letter or symbol, with some order they should be going in. Because controllers aren't necessarily labeled by order, regardless of where you're drawing from. An A might be 'here' one controller, a 'Z' might be there on another. If that's how you memorize things, you're always gonna have an issue. It's just a few assigned labels for memorization. Associate position with its label, and never look down again. It is seriously the simplest thing ever.

So I reiterate: If memorizing, the most basic of all gaming functions (or fundamentals, if you will) is something you have a problem with, you can't be that good of a gamer! Hardcore or not!
Click to expand...

The title of the thread is "What's Better?"... obviously, from the replies, it seems that letters are better. Because someone chooses to learn or not to learn the symbol layout really has nothing to do with how "good" they are at gaming. I can hold my own with many Playstation games, but I still think the symbols suck. Kind of like QWERTY keyboards. Sure we all know how to use them, and much memorization was involved. That doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives. BTW, I also hate the GC controller layout. That doesn't mean I suck at GC games... it simply means I prefer a diamond pattern with letters.
 
ABXY is much better, however, I would really like it if Microsoft adopted the proper form of it (i.e the SNES layout).

WTF, why did i lose a reputation point?
 
Amir0x said:
To this day I have never associated any single controller, letter or symbol, with some order they should be going in. Because controllers aren't necessarily labeled by order, regardless of where you're drawing from. An A might be 'here' one controller, a 'Z' might be there on another. If that's how you memorize things, you're always gonna have an issue. It's just a few assigned labels for memorization. Associate position with its label, and never look down again. It is seriously the simplest thing ever.

So I reiterate: If memorizing, the most basic of all gaming functions (or fundamentals, if you will) is something you have a problem with, you can't be that good of a gamer! Hardcore or not!
Click to expand...
No one has a problem memorizing anythinng. It is annoying that we have to. An entirely different point.
 
jedimike said:
The title of the thread is "What's Better?"... obviously, from the replies, it seems that letters are better. Because someone chooses to learn or not to learn the symbol layout really has nothing to do with how "good" they are at gaming. I can hold my own with many Playstation games, but I still think the symbols suck. Kind of like QWERTY keyboards. Sure we all know how to use them, and much memorization was involved. That doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives. BTW, I also hate the GC controller layout. That doesn't mean I suck at GC games... it simply means I prefer a diamond pattern with letters.
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The issue is memorization of the symbols/letters. If you have no problem with memorizing it, then it's a non-issue. How you decide a preference based on one of them, then, is beyond me - but that's beside the point.

But we can discuss the little nuances and decide base, such as "well it's easier to say!" or "well mommy taught me letters before shapes!", but it's all besides the point. If you memorized it, then there's no argument: the symbols/letters have done its job.

The issue with a QWERTY keyboard isn't really layout, although the barrier exists. It's that there's a ton of stuff to memorize. Controllers only have a small set of buttons, and keyboards have 40+. That's the differential. Increase in amount you must memorize means it takes longer.

elostyle said:
It is annoying that we have to
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Every single controller has a set period of memorization required since the dawn of time. It's usually very short, though, if you're decent.
 
elostyle said:
I challenge you to name one advantage of the symbols.
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There's no advantage or disadvantage. It's just an alternative that also happens to be exceedingly simple to get accustomed to. That's why I said symbols = letters, unless you missed that.
 
Amir0x said:
The issue is memorization of the symbols/letters. If you have no problem with memorizing it, then it's a non-issue. How you decide a preference based on one of them, then, is beyond me - but that's beside the point.
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There doesn't need to be a "problem" per say for there to be a perceptible difference in intuitiveness. Conceding seems to be beyond you as well recently Amir.
 
jarrod said:
The doesn't need to be a "problem" per say for there to be a perceptible difference in intuitiveness.
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There is no perceptible difference in intuitiveness from my vantage point. My response time is exactly the same for lettered and symbol controllers. The bigger issue is actually how the controller is laid out (in terms of comfort, ergonomics, button shape/size). Label is the smallest little detail of all, and 95% of controllers can be memorized in short spans of time with negligible difference.
 
h1nch said:
i dont remember. my point is, once you learn it, it is no longer an issue.
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Maybe for letters and numbers, but you switch up anything else, and you'll be looking down to see where the keys are. When Microsoft decided to change the Insert, Home, Page Up, etc. layout for their Elite KB, that was awkward. Or keyboards that have the backslash key next to the backspace button with a large Enter key.

Guess the point I'm making is you're comparing a keyboard, which has had the same QWERTY layout for as long as any of us has been alive, to controllers on different systems that use different button order, naming conventions, and layouts.
 
The symbols are fine. They're just as intuitive as ABXY, especially given how there's no primary pair of action buttons like the NES days' A/B anymore.

I would, however, like to give the finger to MS for taking the standard ABXY layout and throwing its placement and order all out of whack. :p
 
Amir0x said:
Every single controller has a set period of memorization required since the dawn of time. It's usually very short, though, if you're decent.
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Well almost every controller... this one seems self explanatory.

39101.jpg
 
jedimike said:
Well almost every controller... this one seems self explanatory.

39101.jpg
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If you wanna get technical, even that has a period of memorization. Although it'd probably barely register. Split second or so :P
 
You know, whether anyone thinks the symbols are better or not is a moot point. They did exactly what Sony wanted them to do. They are forever associated with the PlayStation brand in everyone's collective consciousness. You see those symbols and that's immediately what you think of. They never could have done that using the standard letters.
 
jarrod said:
The doesn't need to be a "problem" per say for there to be a perceptible difference in intuitiveness.
Click to expand...
There would be a perceptible difference in intuitiveness if the order of the ABXY controller was laid out in an intuitive (Alphabet based) way but in fact it is not and insteadf you only have compass position to rely on in order to memorize the button layout and since ABXY are in fact words as much as circle square triangle X are in this setup (I will explain this in more depth if need be) the two are in fact the same. And as Amirox said if you can't memorize, or frequently forget button positions on any system you should go back to riding bikes since that is impossible to forget.
 
Amir0x said:
There is no perceptible difference in intuitiveness from my vantage point. My response time is exactly the same for lettered and symbol controllers. The bigger issue is actually how the controller is laid out (in terms of comfort, ergonomics, button shape/size). Label is the smallest little detail of all, and 95% of controllers can be memorized in short spans of time with negligible difference.
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QFT. A succinct and perfect explanation.

But according to the opinions in this thread, a,b,x, y is better. Go SNES.
 
Billy Rygar said:
There would be a perceptible difference in intuitiveness if the order of the ABXY controller was laid out in an intuitive (Alphabet based) way but in fact it is not and insteadf you only have compass position to rely on in order to memorize the button layout and since ABXY are in fact words as much as circle square triangle X are in this setup (I will explain this in more depth if need be) the two are in fact the same. And as Amirox said if you can't memorize, or frequently forget button positions on any system you should go back to riding bikes since that is impossible to forget.
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this is what I keep saying. But since ABXY keys into nintendo nostalgia, we'll keep arguing away about it.
 
Stinkles said:
QFT. A succinct and perfect explanation.

But according to the opinions in this thread, a,b,x, y is better. Go SNES.
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SNES controller was nice. I love standard controllers. Which is why Rev is gonna be interesting, 'cause look how imbeded all these viewpoints are!

A a B b

Z1 Z2!

jarrod said:
Fantastic. That's not the case for everyone though it seems.
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right. which is why i said, if it's a memory issue... and you're always lookin' back down... time to go to the drawing board and brush up them gaming skillz again!
 
Amir0x said:
There is no perceptible difference in intuitiveness from my vantage point. My response time is exactly the same for lettered and symbol controllers. The bigger issue is actually how the controller is laid out (in terms of comfort, ergonomics, button shape/size). Label is the smallest little detail of all, and 95% of controllers can be memorized in short spans of time with negligible difference.
Click to expand...
For me, there isn't in 99% of the games because those don't require you to know the symbols. In the few where you do, my reaction time is much worse with the symbols. Now you can go on and argue that I'm a bad gamer.
 
elostyle said:
For me, there isn't in 99% of the games because those don't require you to know the symbols. In the few where you do, my reaction time is much worse with the symbols. Now you can go on and argue that I'm a bad gamer.
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Sucks to be you :(
 
Amir0x said:
right. which is why i said, if it's a memory issue... and you're always lookin' back down... time to go to the drawing board and brush up them gaming skillz again!
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So any perceptible difference in intuitiveness means someone needs to brush up on their gaming skillz? I'm at a loss as how you can be so narrow minded? We're not even talking about Pokémon here? :P
 
elostyle said:
For me, there isn't in 99% of the games because those don't require you to know the symbols. In the few where you do, my reaction time is much worse with the symbols. Now you can go on and argue that I'm a bad gamer.
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That does not make you a bad gamer. You're most likely used to game with controllers that have an ABXY setup. I find ridiculous the suggestion that something like this scenario would make someone worse of a gamer. Just as with anything, if you started playing a lot more with the other controller scheme you'd probably achieve the same reaction time. It's really a matter of familiarity.
 
jarrod said:
So any perceptible difference in intuitiveness means someone needs to brush up on their gaming skillz? I'm at a loss as how you can be so narrow minded? We're not even talking about Pokémon here? :P
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OO SNAP YOU WENT THERE

Yes, if you have trouble memorizing time to brush up. Memorization should be one of the FOUR CORNERSTONES of gaming!

P.S.
i'm sorry i stop liking a game after it is recycled fifty times :(

elostyle said:
I can probably still beat you at a couple games that aren't played with a dual shock. I do better in more complicated games.
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Maybe! But just to warn you, if it's F-Zero GX... consider yourself owned in advance!
 
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