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[Instigator]

when it was made it made quite an uproar, people didnt riot but it changed the way the government passes out grants to artists.

either way, people are gonna get pissed if somethign they believe in gets pissed....on.......

In an ideal world, it shouldn't, but that's not the case.

 

[FortNinety]

Hey, maybe this is a great place to talk about a really awesome comic I just read. If you're familiar with Art Speigelman's Maus, then you know what to expect. It's called Persepolis and its about a girl who grows up in Iran during the Islamic Revoultion. No matter what you're tastes are... hell, even if you hate comic books period.... I can't recommend the book enough.

Here's some more info.

 

[Azih]

Hey, maybe this is a great place to talk about a really awesome comic I just read.

Maybe you should start a thread for it?

 

[PS2 KID]

I think the article was correct in that it is the wrong reaction by radical muslims, but who are we as Americans to criticize anyone after all the bullshit we have just been involved in in the last 3 years alone. I mean we just invaded a country for no apparent reason, so if anyone is going to criticize another people or religion for being irrational it had better be someone other then America. Then again, America doesn't seem to be that well respected anymore either.

I think the article points out that most muslims around the world won't stop sitting on their hands to save their religion from falling prey to the radicals which seem to be more and more mainstream Islam by the day. If American Muslims and other muslims around the world cannot bring themselves to protest and voice their outrage against the radicals and their acts of terrorism what chance has Islam of proving itself the peaceful and tolerant religion it's believers claim it to be? It's something to think about.

Right now we're looking at act like flushing a koran down the toilet, but neglecting the BIG picture. Which is the radicals are winning the minds and hearts of Muslims, while the peaceful Muslims or those who care to defend their religion against those radicals are losing that battle. Is it even a battle? It seems like their voices are not even heard.

 

[nitewulf]

Hey, maybe this is a great place to talk about a really awesome comic I just read. If you're familiar with Art Speigelman's Maus, then you know what to expect. It's called Persepolis and its about a girl who grows up in Iran during the Islamic Revoultion. No matter what you're tastes are... hell, even if you hate comic books period.... I can't recommend the book enough.

Here's some more info.

i just saw that book a few weeks ago at my local coffee shop, may be ill check it out at that.

 

[Instigator]

Which is the radicals are winning the minds and hearts of Muslims, while the peaceful Muslims or those who care to defend their religion against those radicals are losing that battle. Is it even a battle? It seems like their voices are not even heard.

But why are they winning? Why go for a bloody extreme if there's a better way? The article paints Muslim masses as primitive and totally irrational, this seems hardly better than saying they hate freedom.

 

[Nerevar]

Wait, a lack of translation into modernized language is why the Koran describes women covering their faces?

Even if I misread that, anything you possibly meant there is bullshit

After Muhammad's death, but before the Koran was written, his followers continued to spread Islam. They conquered many lands, nations, and empires while forming the Islamic Empire, and some of these conquered lands' customs & traditions were absorbed into Islam and became part of the Koran, such as the veiling of women in public, a common practice in Persia. This practice was adopted by Muhammad's followers after they conquered Persia.

Do you know anything about Islam? It's dual-sided. It comes from a misinterpretation of a rule in the Quran telling women to, essentially, cover their chests. However, it's written in old arabic, and can be interpreted nowadays as covering their faces as well. It ALSO comes from the fact that Muhammed's wives covered their heads in shawls (like most women do in modern Arabic countries), so it became expected to a certain degree for other religious women.

AND ... to quote from the Quran itself:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...."

Sorry, you lose. That verse is the one that is commonly misinterpreted, as the Quran is written in old Arabic, to mean that women should cover their faces, not their bosoms. Since I can't read/write old Arabic, I'll have to take the word of my Muslim friends that it can be interpreted that way

Edit: To clarify, the scarves women wear around their heads are extremely common in all middle eastern countries (look at Jewish traditions as well). This differentiates itself from the full facial covering that was imposed under strict Muslim theocracies in Afghanistan, which comes from this verse in the Quran.

 

[McLesterolBeast]

I wonder how long it'll take before some site creates a video of a quran being aggressively disrespected. PLACE THAT BOOK ON THE GROUND WITH AUTHORITY!

 

[Nerevar]

This guy really has no right to talk about Muslims this way or talk about the Quran as being just another book. Seriously, one cannot understand why the Quran flushing thing is so important unless they are a muslim. Every choice we make in the everyday life is based on the teachings of the Quran, the way we eat, what we eat, how we wash up, almost every single aspect of our life is dictated by the Quran. It is a symbol of our religion and disrespecting it like that is not the same as a church burning down, or some buddhist stutues being destroyed.

The thing is, how is this different from Jews and the Torah? It is exactly the same thing - but do you expect Jews to have a similar reaction when the Torah is desecrated? All the Jews I know are moderate American Jews, so I can't say for sure, but i'm pretty sure the reaction would be very different.

 

[Guileless]

The article paints Muslim masses as primitive and totally irrational

Many people in that part of the world are primitive and irrational. It's not because they're Muslim or because of their race, but because of their culture as a whole. Tribalism, gender apartheid, religious intolerance, and gratuitous violence are the hallmarks of a primitive culture that has not advanced beyond what we consider the Middle Ages. See also the widespread belief that "the Jews" were actually responsible for 9/11.

This is another example of the pathologies endemic to the region resulting from the refusal to accept modernity. This simply would not happen in a modern, liberal society. The actual religion involved is irrelevant.

 

[Xenon]

when it was made it made quite an uproar, people didnt riot but it changed the way the government passes out grants to artists.

either way, people are gonna get pissed if somethign they believe in gets pissed....on........

Its one thing to tolerate something, quite another to actually fund said acts.

This guy really has no right to talk about Muslims this way or talk about the Quran as being just another book.....

Actually he has every right, he lives in America. =P Wierd, how we can talk about Christians all day long but Muslims are off limits? Please

Plus I have some really bad things to say about the topic creator but I'll keep my mouth shut.

Oh please do tell. I'm sure you have a deep understanding of me from my posts =\


jinx- I agree it was a stupid act. But I still think the outrage over it is more disturbing.


Azih - I'll give you that it was not on completely on topic this thread. However I think it was more than fitting in the Newsweek thread.

I agree that the article is not without faults. The Condee part was stupid. But the point about lack of action of most Muslims on larger issues is spot on. Just like in the US they seemed to get upset about trivial shit.(see Schivo) I'm not so sure about all the deaths being the security officer's fault. A riot is a riot. You can't completely blame the people trying to stop it for the end result.

Whats the big deal with Flushing a Koran down the Toilet?

There are a lot intolerant people out there who value an object more than the idea it represents. I'm not saying what happened shouldn't piss people off. I just think when that anger turns into violent action, it is wrong.

Oh yeah, there is no such thing as a peaceful riot.

 

[Instigator]

Many people in that part of the world are primitive and irrational. It's not because they're Muslim or because of their race, but because of their culture as a whole. Tribalism, gender apartheid, religious intolerance, and gratuitous violence are the hallmarks of a primitive culture that has not advanced beyond what we consider the Middle Ages. See also the widespread belief that "the Jews" were actually responsible for 9/11.

How wonderfully condescending.

You had racial apartheid in the US, instituted a few decades ago, some would say still unofficially applied in many parts of the country. Did the US come out of the Middle Ages recently?

This is another example of the pathologies endemic to the region resulting from the refusal to accept modernity. This simply would not happen in a modern, liberal society. The actual religion involved is irrelevant.

See Northern Ireland. Terrorism, gratuitous violence, apartheid. It's all there.

 

[etiolate]

Damn, I read that as Korean at first and I was like "umm because they won't fit?"

 

[bionic77]

I think the article points out that most muslims around the world won't stop sitting on their hands to save their religion from falling prey to the radicals which seem to be more and more mainstream Islam by the day. If American Muslims and other muslims around the world cannot bring themselves to protest and voice their outrage against the radicals and their acts of terrorism what chance has Islam of proving itself the peaceful and tolerant religion it's believers claim it to be? It's something to think about.

Right now we're looking at act like flushing a koran down the toilet, but neglecting the BIG picture. Which is the radicals are winning the minds and hearts of Muslims, while the peaceful Muslims or those who care to defend their religion against those radicals are losing that battle. Is it even a battle? It seems like their voices are not even heard.

Why do the majority non-crazy muslims have to protest or demonstrate to prove anything to Americans? Maybe they don't see their religion as being lost to the radicals. They probably see them the way we view similar fringe elements of our own society. We have so many crazy elements in our own society: KKK, Nation of Islam, Republican party, Partiot fans, etc. But we don't have to justify ourselves to the rest of the world, why should they have to justify themselves to us? And it isn't like we see a balanced view of the muslim world. The only time I ever see muslims in the news is for a suicide bombing, some sort of fatwa, or an anti-American protest. We never see anything positive in the news, that in itself should show that we don't get the entire picture and we shouldn't pretend that we really know what things are like over there (unless you have been over there yourself and actually have an understanding).

That was the part of the article I really hated. How the author was kind of insinuating that American muslims have to somehow prove themselves and that they are currently failing in that regard. That just seemed like a very close minded and bigoted statement to me. They are Americans just like the rest of us and should be treated as such (no matter what racists like Galen or his ilk seem to think). Oh well, we will eventually find some other race, religion, or nation to direct our hatred towards and they will become "our enemy".. I figure we will move on from muslims after another 10 years to something bigger and even more misguided.

 

[nitewulf]

Many people in that part of the world are primitive and irrational. It's not because they're Muslim or because of their race, but because of their culture as a whole. Tribalism, gender apartheid, religious intolerance, and gratuitous violence are the hallmarks of a primitive culture that has not advanced beyond what we consider the Middle Ages. See also the widespread belief that "the Jews" were actually responsible for 9/11.

This is another example of the pathologies endemic to the region resulting from the refusal to accept modernity. This simply would not happen in a modern, liberal society. The actual religion involved is irrelevant.

bingo.
i typed a lot of shit, and didnt bother posting it, as for one thing, i sorta dont like arguing anymore. and secondly, im not an anthropologist so i wasnt sure whether i actually made any sense.
but the gist of my arguement was this, islamic states didnt go through industrial revolution, they are backdated, conservative, close minded. some found oil, and BOUGHT technology rather then inventing them. none of them have gone through the rigour of industrialization, they never modernized!
all of them look at their legacy, at the golden age of islamic empires, which, ironically, WERE liberal and open. and they yearn for it, and again, ironically, the hardcore muslims would never fit in at the golden age of islam. they'd be shunned there as well!
their thought process, legal procedures, education...all stuck in the middle ages.

 

[GSG Flash]

Actually he has every right, he lives in America. =P Wierd, how we can talk about Christians all day long but Muslims are off limits? Please





Oh please do tell. I'm sure you have a deep understanding of me from my posts =\

Maybe I should have worded it differently because I meant to say he has no right without actually being a muslim because that is the only way someone would truly understand why muslims are in an uproar over this.

And are you the topic creator? I wasn't talking about you.

The thing is, how is this different from Jews and the Torah? It is exactly the same thing - but do you expect Jews to have a similar reaction when the Torah is desecrated? All the Jews I know are moderate American Jews, so I can't say for sure, but i'm pretty sure the reaction would be very different.

I don't know how you can be so sure when nothing like this has happened to the Jews in the modern era to provide evidence of this. With muslims, the Quran becomes a part of you, so seeing or hearing about the Quran getting humiliated for no reason would get muslims pretty pissed off. And since I'm not a jew, I don't know how close they are to the Torah, but if they're as close as the muslims are to the Quran, then I am sure that they would be pissed too. But the current backlash against Islam (especially in the US) is a big reason for the elevated emotions.

 

[PS2 KID]

Why do the majority non-crazy muslims have to protest or demonstrate to prove anything to Americans?

I didn't say anything about proving it to Americans. They should prove it to the world.
If all the coverage we see is negative. Then please point to me the positive coverage of non crazy Muslims that has been mysteriously swept under the rug by the World's media.
If they dont' see their religion as being lost to radicals then something is amiss as radical Islam is not something that is a fringe element. It maybe be called radical Islam but it's accepted within the Islamic community. Until they outright reject it, through protest or force, it will continue to get stronger. Inaction by peaceful Muslims is by default is condoning it or just plain accepting it. If they allow Radical Islam to be the 'face' of Islam by doing nothing to boost peace and tolerance side of Islam. If it takes a civil war within the Religion so be it, but something must be done to curtail the rise of extremists.

That was the part of the article I really hated. How the author was kind of insinuating that American muslims have to somehow prove themselves and that they are currently failing in that regard.

Now if Radical Buddhists (or some other religion) were waging their version of Jihad against anything non-their version of religion, then yes, I would expect peaceful non Radical Buddhists to be more vociferous about it. If anti-war protesters and anti-Syrian occupation lebanese protestors can come out in droves (and there are more than 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet) then where's the big 'Peace for Islam' Protest or 'Islam does not support terrorism' Protest then? It makes you wonder doesn't it? We know the faces of Radical Islam, where's the face of Peaceful Islam? Someone has to put their neck out and be the frontman. Do the PR, work the press. Whatever it takes to get the word out that what you see on tv isn't what our religion is really about. 'There's good to it and we're here to show you that' type of press.

 

[MetalAlien]

When I become god I'm banning all religion. That will fix 95% of the worlds problems right there. Then I'm going to bring back Sega as a hardware manufacturer.

 

[Azih]

A riot is a riot. You can't completely blame the people trying to stop it for the end result.

I'm not blaming the people who were trying to stop it. I'm not blaming anyone in that whole sad affair. The person I *am* however criticising is this jacoby dude for using the word 'killers' and bloodlust and murderers for people getting crushed in a riot.

And that article was equally pointless in the Newsweek article as well. Make your own thread for it if you think the article is all that important, but it has nothing to do with what 'the big deal' is about flushing a quran down a toilet or whether or not Newsweek should have run that article and the aftermath.

ut the gist of my arguement was this, islamic states didnt go through industrial revolution, they are backdated, conservative, close minded. some found oil, and BOUGHT technology

sonofa.. are you confusing muslims for arabs? I mean really?

In fact I'm noticing that a whole buncha you are using the word 'Islam' like it's some monolithic entity. It's a billion plus freaking people, from all races, regions, and it's got some major sectarian divides within itself for yerg's sake.


and Edit:

Now if Radical Buddhists (or some other religion) were waging their version of Jihad against anything non-their version of religion

You really think *THAT's* what you think radical islam is doing? Jesus H. Christ talk about not knowing your enemy at all. Not knowing why it has the support it does and not knowing how to go about weakening it.

 

[Nerevar]

I don't know how you can be so sure when nothing like this has happened to the Jews in the modern era to provide evidence of this. With muslims, the Quran becomes a part of you, so seeing or hearing about the Quran getting humiliated for no reason would get muslims pretty pissed off. And since I'm not a jew, I don't know how close they are to the Torah, but if they're as close as the muslims are to the Quran, then I am sure that they would be pissed too. But the current backlash against Islam (especially in the US) is a big reason for the elevated emotions.

So are you saying you're upset because they defaced the book, or are you upset because you perceive there to be an anti-Muslim slant in the US, which led to the defacing of the book? Because, quite frankly, the relationship between orthodox Jews and Torah is virtually identical to the relationship between Muslims and the Quran (and, I would argue, much more important to the Jews). The reason I ask is because most Jews I know would not be upset because the important part is the message of the book, not the text itself. However, the response I see from many people is outrage that the text itself was damaged at all, which seems, as I've said so many times before, incredibly asinine.

 

[Azih]

I see from many people is outrage that the text itself was damaged at all, which seems, as I've said so many times before, incredibly asinine.

It's a symbol. Not just *a* symbol. But *THE* freaking symbol of Islam. Referring it to as just a 'text' or 'message' is to just not get the importance of the thing.

The whole crux of the religion is that the entire procession of prophets sent to Earth ended with Muhammad through whom the Quran was revaled which is the perfectly unchanged word straight from God. To tell you the truth burning down the local mosque probably wouldn't get as severe a reaction as mistreating the Quran would (as long as there were no people inside the mosque of course, and even then.)

The Quran is more important than the Prophet Muhammad.

 

[PS2 KID]

You really think *THAT's* what you think radical islam is doing? Jesus H. Christ talk about not knowing your enemy at all. Not knowing why it has the support it does and not knowing how to go about weakening it.

WOW, that's all you've got to say about my post?

You picked something you disagreed with but you missed the meat of my argument. Lame.

 

[Newduck]

I read this thread as "Korean" down the toilet, and was sincerely disapointed when there was no video.

 

[Nerevar]

It's a symbol. Not just *a* symbol. But *THE* freaking symbol of Islam. Referring it to as just a 'text' or 'message' is to just not get the importance of the thing.

That's analagous to saying a reproduction of Christ on the Crucifix is a representation of Christianity though, and we've already seen that being defamed in this very thread with little or no reaction. The point I'm trying to make is why is it so hard for some to seperate the message from the text? There's clearly a difference there that anyone with even a basic understanding of theology can grasp.

 

[Azih]

WOW, that's all you've got to say about my post?

You picked something you disagreed with but you missed the meat of my argument. Lame.

Hell kid that aint a disagreement it's an indication to me that you have no idea what you're talking about and thus I'm not even considering the rest of your post.

Fine I'll pick apart another one of your howlers, which if you were paying attention is something I brought up in my response to nitewulf, but hey I'll make it blatantly obvious for you

It maybe be called radical Islam but it's accepted within the Islamic community

WHICH Islamic community are you talking about? The Hanafis? The Wahhabis? The Sufis? The Shiahs? The Pakistanis? The Afghanis? The Indonesians? Turks? Syrians?Lebanonis? Maybe you're referring to the Arabs? Persians? Balkans? North american emigrants? European immigrants? Chinese? John Walker type converts? North Africans?

good lord what the hell do you mean by Islamic community? Do you have any inkling about how many completely seperate and distinct communities there are within a group of MORE THAN A BILLION PEOPLE? And I haven't even touched on the ideological divides.

 

[Azih]

That's analagous to saying a reproduction of Christ on the Crucifix is a representation of Christianity though, and we've already seen that being defamed in this very thread with little or no reaction. The point I'm trying to make is why is it so hard for some to seperate the message from the text? There's clearly a difference there that anyone with even a basic understanding of theology can grasp.

Only if you're using a one size fits all application of theology. I don't mean to go all McLaughan here but The Message IS the Text and The Text IS the Message.

This is 'The Word of God' we're talking about here. All caps. Huge Font.


And no

that's analagous to saying a reproduction of Christ on the Crucifix is a representation of Christianity

this is is not a good analogy.

 

[PS2 KID]

WHICH Islamic community are you talking about? The Hanfis? The Wahhabis? The Sufis? The Shiahs? The Pakistanis? The Afghanis? The Indonesians? Turks? Syrians?Lebanonis? Maybe you're referring to the Arabs? Persians? Balkans? North american emigrants? European immigrants? Chinese? John Walker type converts? North Africans?

good lord what the hell do you mean by Islamic community? Do you have any inkling about how many completely seperate and distinct communities there are within a group of MORE THAN A BILLION PEOPLE? And I haven't even touched on the ideological divides.

From my other post I'm well aware of the number of Muslims on the planet thank you. You forgot the the rest of the world where muslims reside but I got where you were going.

You conveniently forgot that these seperate and disparate groups are involved in a global network of Islamic terrorist groups that interact, trade information and conspire with each other (so maybe I should have said Global Islamic Community). Don't get started on if they ALL interact with each other or get along with each other, just the idea that they can cooperate with each other, even if some groups desire more credit or don't see eye to eye on every issue.

 

[Guileless]

How wonderfully condescending.

I'm not being condescending, I am describing reality. It's not my fault that you don't like that reality. I don't like it either. I wish the people who died at this protest had been too busy taking their kids home from soccer practice or studying for the SAT or perfecting their Dan technique on Street Fighter Alpha 3 to worry about going to a violent protest about something that may not even have happened where they chant for blood and religious revenge like people did in the freaking 1400s.

What exactly do you disagree with me about? Do you think the Arab world is currently experiencing a Golden Age of Enlightenment comparable to Renaissance Florence or ancient Athens?

Northern Ireland is the exception to the rule of Western religious tolerance. If you don't realize that you're either stupid or not being honest. And what part of the United States is ruled by racial apartheid and what are the conditions there?

 

[Azih]

You conveniently forgot that these seperate and disparate groups are involved in a global network of Islamic terrorist groups that interact, trade information and conspire with each other (so maybe I should have said Global Islamic Community).

Oh son of a bitch this is getting worse.

Let me tell you something genius, millitant Shias would never ever work with radical Sunnis because radical Sunnis spend most of their freaking time BLOWING UP SHIAHS. Hell secterian violence is a normal part of everday damn life in my birth city of Karachi. Not one week ago a radical Sunni burst into a mosque and blew himself up in order to take out Shiahs. http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3724 This is worse than average but it's not even a fucking surprise and hell close family of mine lives in that city (same exact thing is rapidly beoming normal in Iraq). Where the hell does this fit into your completely fabricated, made up on the spot 'Global Islamic Community'?

And Sufis spend all of *their* time spinning in a spot, getting real high and writing poetry about how great love is. Where the hell are they in your Global Islamic Community of networking Islamic terrorist groups? What the hell kind of bad spy fiction/comic book are you getting your world view from?

Edit: And holy ferk Your bizzaro vision of a C.O.B.R.A like GIC assoicaton of muslims almost made me forgot that I wasn't even *referring* to radical groups (what the hell would a radical Sufi group be? The ones that never leave the hookahs alone?) in my original rant. I was referring to normal everday run of the mill people which your GIC doesn't even cover.


Edit: To Guileless:

Do you think the Arab world is currently experiencing a Golden Age of Enlightenment comparable to Renaissance Florence or ancient Athens?

Afghanistan isn't a part of Arabia. Afghanis aren't Arabs. Thus Afghanistan aint a part of the Arab world. KThxbye.

 

[Nerevar]

Only if you're using a one size fits all application of theology. I don't mean to go all McLaughan here but The Message IS the Text and The Text IS the Message.

This is 'The Word of God' we're talking about here. All caps. Huge Font.


And no this is is not a good analogy.

that was my original analogy was to Torah (literally, "Law", or the Law of God). Do you or do you not agree that it is a perfect analogy? Furthermore, do you think the Jewish community's reaction would be comparable in any way?

 

[Guileless]

Who shit in your cereal Azih?

For Azih's benefit, my previous post responding to Instigator refers to the Arab nations of the Middle East and the predominantly Muslim countries adjacent to that area, which are not ethnically Arab, including but not limited to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran. This contest is void where prohibited.

 

[PS2 KID]

Oh son of a bitch this is getting worse.

Let me tell you something genius, millitant Shias would never ever work with radical Sunnis because radical Sunnis spend most of their freaking time BLOWING UP SHIAHS. Hell secterian violence is a normal part of everday damn life in my birth city of Karachi. Not one week ago a radical Sunni burst into a mosque and blew himself up in order to take out Shiahs. http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3724 This is worse than average but it's not even a fucking surprise and hell close family of mine lives in that city (same exact thing is rapidly beoming normal in Iraq). Where the hell does this fit into your completely fabricated, made up on the spot 'Global Islamic Community'?

Yes, I'm well aware of the sectarian rift between Shia's and Sunni's in Iraq. (I read it in the news about Iraq almost every day). However, that wouldn't forbid say the Shia in Iran wouldn't cooperate with and fund a Sunni group like Islamic Jihad. So to say cooperation betwen Sunni and Shia is impossible would be inaccurate.

 

[Polari]

It's amusing to see the conclusion Google AdWords has come to about this thread.

 

[Slurpy]

Thats not why I started this thread. I really think its ridiculous that people are getting mad about this type of behavior. What do they expect in an army prison camp?

This guy IS banned already, right?

 

[Rorschach]

This guy's friends with Olimario in real life. What did you honestly expect?

ooooooh ok.

 

[Drozmight]

Reminds me of when they burned a bible on Survivor.

 

[Shogmaster]

Damn, I read that as Korean at first and I was like "umm because they won't fit?"

Remind me never to get arrested for anything terrorism related. I don't like using other people's toilets, nevermind getting fucking flushed!

 

[AB 101]

But does KILLING one another really justify what happened.

Maybe the Koran says thats okay?

 

[AB 101]

When I become god I'm banning all religion. That will fix 95% of the worlds problems right there. Then I'm going to bring back Sega as a hardware manufacturer.

:lol

 

[Instigator]

What exactly do you disagree with me about? Do you think the Arab world is currently experiencing a Golden Age of Enlightenment comparable to Renaissance Florence or ancient Athens?

Northern Ireland is the exception to the rule of Western religious tolerance. If you don't realize that you're either stupid or not being honest. And what part of the United States is ruled by racial apartheid and what are the conditions there?

The problem is that you think modernity is like a switch, once you go through it, people see the error of their ways, they are reformed and somehow changed.

Modernity, at least when you stick to the philosophical elements, helps rationalize our understanding of the world around us, gives us science and technology that allows to have all that creature comfort. That's all good, but human nature stays the same. Human motivations, impulses, desires are still there. There's a rough moral code in everyone, but what really keeps most people in check is law enforcement and what it tells them not to do. But crimes still happen and even riots sometimes. But effective law enforcement is no way unique to a modern Western society.

Now the second premise of your argument is that despite all that, people are still able to sit down and rationalize, decide what they should and shouldn't do anymore as a society. Enlightement was not enough to stop slavery, stop official segregation, allow women to vote, people had to fight for it and someone was forced to cave in at one point otherwise nothing would have changed. It is a constant struggle. But these struggles, those fights for change also happen in other societies, even primitive ones. That's how we got to be 'modern' anyway.

The real problem with your statements is that they are arrogant and incredibly ethnocentric. It takes modern Western societies (America in your case) as they are RIGHT NOW and judges other societies based on these current but arbitrary standards. Now, this is nothing new, to justify slavery, people looked at the natives and superficially saw they were nothing like them and that made slave trade easier to stomach on a moral level. Later on, colonialism used the civilizing excuse to go to these countries, exploit them while somehow making them Western. It didn't help. I'm not insinuating that you want to enslave people, but it's the same mentality that leads to it. Personally, I think it is much more effective to judge a society by its own standards. If it fails to meet them, then it is a much more effective incentive for change, for real genuine change.

I don't think there is such a thing as modernity, as an absolute in itself. I think it is a Western modernity, a slow process, a series of struggles and an evolution to whatever other form, unique to the West, to its culture. Fact of the matter, democracy and some of the modern principles of a nation state were attempted in the Arab world in the past. They all failed in the long run. I guess you can't just transplant a model unique to the West and expect it to work in a completely different culture (I'll leave out foreign interference in this debate). I can still see attempts in modern times but they are definitely Arab in flavor, such as the patriarchal politics of Lebanon (very low turn-out in the recent election, BTW). If something has to happen, it must be unique to the region, it must be wanted by the people, a system perhaps inspired by the West (though antagonism with American foreign policy is a definite hurdle to have that inspiration), but definitely Arab. For example, I don't think you can have true separation of state and church in most Arab countries, Islam is too engrained in their society, much more so that Christianity ever was in the West. Then again, America still struggles with that principle, even 2 hundred years after the writing of the constitution, but the country still works (sort of...). So you could have theoritically a 'modern' Arab state, probably more civilized to your eyes, but I don't think it would be a perfect replica of what you know nor would it meet your narrow standards completely.

 

[Xenon]

When I become god I'm banning all religion. That will fix 95% of the worlds problems right there. Then I'm going to bring back Sega as a hardware manufacturer.

:lol totally missed that part.

 

[Guileless]

How you characterize my arguments--arrogant or ethnocentric--does not challenge their validity. In the real world, there are millions of immigrants from the Middle East who move to the West for the opportunity to have a better life. Are they all arrogant and ethnocentric for thinking the West is better for that purpose?

I measure the value of a society by one thing: how free am I to pursue the life I want to lead based on the talents I have? And the West (and the US in particular), at this time in history, is peerless in that category. The countries of the Middle East fall well short of that standard, and if you're a woman, then it's just sad how far below.

I think it is much more effective to judge a society by its own standards.

Well that's all well and good for you, but in the real world a society is judged by its productivity in the global marketplace. The combined GDP of all the Arab countries was smaller than that of Spain alone in 1999. Read this article about a recent UN study for the sobering reality of the intellectual and economic impoverishment of the region. Read it and then tell us what you think.
http://www.meforum.org/article/513

 

[Tazznum1]

It's gotta be the heat.

 

[Instigator]

How you characterize my arguments--arrogant or ethnocentric--does not challenge their validity. In the real world, there are millions of immigrants from the Middle East who move to the West for the opportunity to have a better life. Are they all arrogant and ethnocentric for thinking the West is better for that purpose?

I measure the value of a society by one thing: how free am I to pursue the life I want to lead based on the talents I have? And the West (and the US in particular), at this time in history, is peerless in that category. The countries of the Middle East fall well short of that standard, and if you're a woman, then it's just sad how far below.


Well that's all well and good for you, but in the real world a society is judged by its productivity in the global marketplace. The combined GDP of all the Arab countries was smaller than that of Spain alone in 1999. Read this article about a recent UN study for the sobering reality of the intellectual and economic impoverishment of the region. Read it and then tell us what you think.
http://www.meforum.org/article/513

Well now, you're cleverly shifting argument. Are these people primitive and irrational, leading them to savage acts or simply living in unproductive societies in the global market? I know you like to group things together, like capitalism and democracy, but those two issues are separate.

The Middle East Forum, a think tank, works to define and promote American interests in the Middle East.

WTF? Why not give me a link to Wolfowitz's Email instead?

Instead of using your biased link, how about going directly at the source?

http://cfapp2.undp.org/rbas/ahdr2.cfm?menu=10

This is also interesting...

US Threatens UN Agency Funds Over Arab Report

:lol

 

[Azih]

However, that wouldn't forbid say the Shia in Iran wouldn't cooperate with and fund a Sunni group like Islamic Jihad. So to say cooperation betwen Sunni and Shia is impossible would be inaccurate.

What the hell? I'm talking about cooperation between Sunnia and Shia extremists as envisioned by your inane GIC. Standard Sunni and Shia get along just fine for the most part. And the Iranian government sending money to Palestenians for example in no way contradicts my assertion that your conception of

a global network of Islamic terrorist groups that interact, trade information and conspire

is bunk bunk bunk. The only semblance of cohesion from a global standpoint is between groups inspired by Bin Laden and those are hardcore Wahhabis that view Shias as nothing more than target practice.

So I ask you again, WHICH exact Islamic community were you referring to when you said

It maybe be called radical Islam but it's accepted within the Islamic community

****

In the real world, there are millions of immigrants from the Middle East who move to the West for the opportunity to have a better life.

In the real world there are millions of immigrants from EVERY POINT IN THE NON WESTERN PLANET that move to the West for the opportunity to have a better life. That's not actually saying anything at all.

For Azih's benefit, my previous post responding to Instigator refers to the Arab nations of the Middle East and the predominantly Muslim countries adjacent to that area, which are not ethnically Arab, including but not limited to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran.

Ahum, and the reason I have a problem with that is that holy crap but the problems faced by each of those areas is distinct and your lumping all of those into the 'Arab World'
1. Ignores the extreme differences in history and current problems those very different areas are facing
2. Is dumb.
3. And should never be done k? Thanks.

Frankly it was better when I thought you thought Afghanis were actual Arabs, because then at least there was a simple lack of knowledge. But with you *knowing* that Afghanis are a whole country removed from Arabia, and not still not seeing anything wrong with lumping them into the Arab world is crazy. And you're throwing Iran in there?

Buddy take it from me but don't lump the two places together in front of Persians because as a rule Persians. do. not. like. Arabs. Trust me on this.

I'm not saying that there aren't commonalities in all of these places that shouldn't be examined, but the extent to which you're stretching it is crazy and smothers a lot of the important details.

And really your original

Do you think the Arab world is currently experiencing a Golden Age of Enlightenment comparable to Renaissance Florence or ancient Athens?

betrays a lack of understanding of early Muslim history. While Christianit communities had their intellectual flowering late in it's life (1500 or so years), this happened for Muslims extremely early in one grand glorious burst that was lost in the aftermath of the Crusades. What's the point of mentioning this? The point is that you seem to have an idea that 'The West went through this, now the Muslim world has to go through this to be enlightened', which is not a smart thing. The History of the two regions is different, the contemporary realitiy is different and so the future progression will also be different. Any movement towards progress in the Muslim world will not be an aping of the western past so to judge it by those standards alone is not the right thing to do.

The Muslim world has a lot to learn from the West (chiefly tolerance) but I'm shocked that you don't recognise how colonial your attitude is Guileless.

 

[AB 101]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_women_behind_the_wheel


Man, they need to get with the times. They get to emotional over the littlest thing.

 

[GSG Flash]

Azih are you a Shia muslim? If so then it's nice to know that a fellow Shia browses this forum. If not, well it's still nice to know that a fellow muslim browses these forums.

 

[Instigator]

Azih are you a Shia muslim? If so then it's nice to know that a fellow Shia browses this forum. If not, well it's still nice to know that a fellow muslim browses these forums.

I'm a fellow human being. Does that count?

 

[bionic77]

I'm a fellow human being. Does that count?

I usually hold that against you.

This debate about muslims never ends well in GAF, though I have to say it is much more civilized than it is in most forums. Just too much hatred and ignorance in this topic. Time for me to exit and go smear Jordan's name in the NBA threads. Hopefully we can all agree on that point.

 

[effzee]

But does KILLING one another really justify what happened.

Maybe the Koran says thats okay?

yes cause that must be it. the koran does say its ok. wow ur brilliant.


2ndly calling a group of people or culture primitive is beyong retarded...when islam was in its golden age and progressing..was it primitive then? the sad fact is for muslims, and i guess that depends on what region of the world ur from, is that curretnly the majority of muslims and thier nations are 3rd world countries. and most of this terrorism crap comes from these nations and these people who are easily manipulated with the promise of security, food, shelter, and a target to blame for all that they dont have...some of which is justified and some is exagerated. u can claim christians were once in a similar position and they reacted with the same "blood lust" and acts which now are considered horrendous. same with hitlet...all rises with not being stable economically. look at some of the well of muslim countries, the very few, and u will see relative peace aside from the normal crap every nation/people have to deal with.