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When will we see the 1st HD-dvd or Blu-Ray player?
- Thread starter neptunes
- Start date
EclipseGST
Member
neptunes said:
wait...blu ray player and no component outputs!!!
HD-DVD player here I come.
Just kidding but wtf?
EclipseGST
Member
Jonnyram said:
what do they do?
consumer players will be out by fall 2005.. though by consumer I mean entry level will be $400... maybe even as high as a $600 entry point..
discs will not use caddies.. this was one of the things sony has said for a long time that they will need to eliminate for mass market adoption.
title selection will be SEVERLY limited. The only studio currently on board for either format is Sony (and thus MGM).. and other studios are not excited about pressing forward (a lot having to do with the fact that there is still a ton of money to be made in dvd).
anyway, fall of next year.. start saving those pennies.
discs will not use caddies.. this was one of the things sony has said for a long time that they will need to eliminate for mass market adoption.
title selection will be SEVERLY limited. The only studio currently on board for either format is Sony (and thus MGM).. and other studios are not excited about pressing forward (a lot having to do with the fact that there is still a ton of money to be made in dvd).
anyway, fall of next year.. start saving those pennies.
lol.. get a clue
studios have openly said they are not comitting.
now add on to that the wonderful trickle of DVD commital.. for those who were too young in 1997.......
Fox didn't come on til 1998. Disney really didn't release anything significant until a ways into 1998 and didn't start releasing their bread and butter until winter 99. Paramount didn't come on board until 1998.
And all of that DESPITE DVD being a hit practically right out of the gate.
Here you will have two completely incompatible formats, NO universal players on the horizon, so companies either have to carry THREE SKUs for a single movie (and that isn't including separate Full Screen and Widescreen DVD SKUs) or hedge their bets on as single HD format. the only companies likely to do so are the two main players, aka Sony and Warner.. and even Warner at this point is questionable openly saying they aren't commiting to either..
and none of this is MY speculation.. this is what analysts and studio execs have said..
if there is one god damn thing I know it's movies.... I've had thounsands of dollars invested in my home theater since almost 15 years ago.
studios have openly said they are not comitting.
now add on to that the wonderful trickle of DVD commital.. for those who were too young in 1997.......
Fox didn't come on til 1998. Disney really didn't release anything significant until a ways into 1998 and didn't start releasing their bread and butter until winter 99. Paramount didn't come on board until 1998.
And all of that DESPITE DVD being a hit practically right out of the gate.
Here you will have two completely incompatible formats, NO universal players on the horizon, so companies either have to carry THREE SKUs for a single movie (and that isn't including separate Full Screen and Widescreen DVD SKUs) or hedge their bets on as single HD format. the only companies likely to do so are the two main players, aka Sony and Warner.. and even Warner at this point is questionable openly saying they aren't commiting to either..
and none of this is MY speculation.. this is what analysts and studio execs have said..
if there is one god damn thing I know it's movies.... I've had thounsands of dollars invested in my home theater since almost 15 years ago.
You have a home theater???? WOW you MUST know EVRYTHING then.... big rolleye here
HP strikes Blu note for DVDs, talks of fat storage
Published: November 16, 2004, 12:21 PM PST
By Richard Shim
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
Print story E-mail story Your take
PC buyers can look forward to DVDs with up to 10 times the storage they now have when Hewlett-Packard rolls out machines supporting next-generation DVD technology next year.
The PC maker announced on Tuesday that it will support the Blu-ray Disc format in some desktops and notebooks in late 2005. HP is one of the first companies to announce the inclusion of Blu-ray Disc, a blue-laser technology that enables storage of up to 50GB on a dual-layer disc.
Drives supporting the format are expected to play CDs and DVDs.
Blu-ray Disc is competing with another blue-laser technology, high-definition DVDs, but the two formats are incompatible. HD DVD discs store up to 30GB on a dual-layer disc. Blue-laser optical disc formats are expected to take over for DVDs, which--with a storage capacity of 4.7GB--won't be able to store much high-resolution digital television programming.
"Our decision to back Blu-ray was largely because of its capacity advantage (over HD DVD), as well as the interactive features being built into the specification," said Maureen Weber, general manager of optical storage at HP. "We will help with economies of scale....We'll drive down prices as we push volumes."
Pushing products based on Blu-ray to market is a priority for HP, Weber added.
HP's involvement with Blu-ray recalls the rewritable DVD format battles in which PC makers HP and Dell helped swing momentum toward the DVD+RW format.
Digital agenda
HP and Dell are members of the Blu-ray Disc Association (formerly the Blu-ray Disc Founders group), which promotes and develops the Blu-ray Disc format. The group has about 88 members, including Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson Multimedia.
Companies promoting the HD DVD format include Memory-Tech, NEC, Sanyo Electric and Toshiba.
HP's support is not a surprise, but it is sign of commitment from a PC maker for Blu-ray Disc.
Toshiba said it plans to introduce notebooks with HD DVD in December of 2005.
HP will introduce Blu-ray Disc drives in late 2005 as well, starting in its media center PCs, desktops and personal workstations and followed by notebooks in early 2006. HP will support Blu-ray read-only, rewritable and recordable discs.
HP strikes Blu note for DVDs, talks of fat storage
Published: November 16, 2004, 12:21 PM PST
By Richard Shim
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
Print story E-mail story Your take
PC buyers can look forward to DVDs with up to 10 times the storage they now have when Hewlett-Packard rolls out machines supporting next-generation DVD technology next year.
The PC maker announced on Tuesday that it will support the Blu-ray Disc format in some desktops and notebooks in late 2005. HP is one of the first companies to announce the inclusion of Blu-ray Disc, a blue-laser technology that enables storage of up to 50GB on a dual-layer disc.
Drives supporting the format are expected to play CDs and DVDs.
Blu-ray Disc is competing with another blue-laser technology, high-definition DVDs, but the two formats are incompatible. HD DVD discs store up to 30GB on a dual-layer disc. Blue-laser optical disc formats are expected to take over for DVDs, which--with a storage capacity of 4.7GB--won't be able to store much high-resolution digital television programming.
"Our decision to back Blu-ray was largely because of its capacity advantage (over HD DVD), as well as the interactive features being built into the specification," said Maureen Weber, general manager of optical storage at HP. "We will help with economies of scale....We'll drive down prices as we push volumes."
Pushing products based on Blu-ray to market is a priority for HP, Weber added.
HP's involvement with Blu-ray recalls the rewritable DVD format battles in which PC makers HP and Dell helped swing momentum toward the DVD+RW format.
Digital agenda
HP and Dell are members of the Blu-ray Disc Association (formerly the Blu-ray Disc Founders group), which promotes and develops the Blu-ray Disc format. The group has about 88 members, including Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson Multimedia.
Companies promoting the HD DVD format include Memory-Tech, NEC, Sanyo Electric and Toshiba.
HP's support is not a surprise, but it is sign of commitment from a PC maker for Blu-ray Disc.
Toshiba said it plans to introduce notebooks with HD DVD in December of 2005.
HP will introduce Blu-ray Disc drives in late 2005 as well, starting in its media center PCs, desktops and personal workstations and followed by notebooks in early 2006. HP will support Blu-ray read-only, rewritable and recordable discs.
companies in with Blue ray
Ahead Software AG
AudioDev AB
Canon Inc.
CMC Magnetics Corporation
CyberLink Corp.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Digital Theater Systems Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.
Eclipse Data Technologies
Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd.
Kenwood Corporation
LITE-ON IT Corporation
MediaTek Inc.
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Moser Baer India Limited
MX Entertainment
Optodisc Technology Corporation
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.
Sonic Solutions
Sonopress
Texas Instruments Inc.
Ulead Systems Inc.
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
AMC Co. Ltd.
ArcSoft Inc.
Asahi Kasei Microsystems Co., Ltd.
ATI Technologies Inc.
Ciba Specialty Chemicals Inc.
D&M holdings, Inc.
Daewoo Electronics Corporation
Elpida Memory, Inc.
ESS Technology Inc.
Expert Magnetics Corp.
Funai Electric Co., Ltd.
Imation Corp.
Infomedia Inc.
InterVideo Inc.
Konica Minolta Opto Inc.
Lead Data Inc.
LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP
LINTEC Corporation
Memorex Products Inc.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.
Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd.
Nexapm Systems Technology Inc.
nVidia Corporation
Opt Corporation
Pixela Corporation
Pony Canyon Enterprise
Ritek Corporation
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Shinano Kenshi Co. Ltd.
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,
TEAC Corporation
Teijin Chemicals Ltd.
Toppan Printing Co., Ltd.
Unaxis Balzer AG
Yokogawa Electric Corporation
Ahead Software AG
AudioDev AB
Canon Inc.
CMC Magnetics Corporation
CyberLink Corp.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Digital Theater Systems Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.
Eclipse Data Technologies
Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd.
Kenwood Corporation
LITE-ON IT Corporation
MediaTek Inc.
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Moser Baer India Limited
MX Entertainment
Optodisc Technology Corporation
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.
Sonic Solutions
Sonopress
Texas Instruments Inc.
Ulead Systems Inc.
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
AMC Co. Ltd.
ArcSoft Inc.
Asahi Kasei Microsystems Co., Ltd.
ATI Technologies Inc.
Ciba Specialty Chemicals Inc.
D&M holdings, Inc.
Daewoo Electronics Corporation
Elpida Memory, Inc.
ESS Technology Inc.
Expert Magnetics Corp.
Funai Electric Co., Ltd.
Imation Corp.
Infomedia Inc.
InterVideo Inc.
Konica Minolta Opto Inc.
Lead Data Inc.
LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP
LINTEC Corporation
Memorex Products Inc.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.
Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd.
Nexapm Systems Technology Inc.
nVidia Corporation
Opt Corporation
Pixela Corporation
Pony Canyon Enterprise
Ritek Corporation
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Shinano Kenshi Co. Ltd.
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,
TEAC Corporation
Teijin Chemicals Ltd.
Toppan Printing Co., Ltd.
Unaxis Balzer AG
Yokogawa Electric Corporation
lol.... as for the home theater... unless you watched Lion King in 1995 in Dolby Digital at home or Jurassic Park in 1997 in DTS at home.. stfu...
as for your press release... ummm.. what the hell does that prove? So they are releasing drives (which will be expensive) in computers.. they are still two competing systems and still have no studio backing..
not to mention they haven't even been able to get DVD PC storage to take off except for in the last two years... or 5 years after DVD was released, despite the fact that DVD drives were available less than 5 months after the format launched........
you can dream, but I have knowledge and history on my side. the only chance either format has is for both to become cheap enough that they can release universal players. computer storage doesn't mean shit, and no company besides heavily committed companies (Warner/sony) is going to make a heavy investment in either format until units are out on the shelves...
but go ahead, believe what you want. I've seen enough format launches to know that Blueray and HD-DVD in their current states are headed for disaster.
$400 next year and aside from a few hits from Sony and maybe Warner (hopefully you will have two machines to play both) priced at $30-40 each, expect to buy a WHOLE LOT of special interest documentaries.... sorry, but DiscoveryHD is only fun for like the firt two weeks you own an HD set..
as for your press release... ummm.. what the hell does that prove? So they are releasing drives (which will be expensive) in computers.. they are still two competing systems and still have no studio backing..
not to mention they haven't even been able to get DVD PC storage to take off except for in the last two years... or 5 years after DVD was released, despite the fact that DVD drives were available less than 5 months after the format launched........
you can dream, but I have knowledge and history on my side. the only chance either format has is for both to become cheap enough that they can release universal players. computer storage doesn't mean shit, and no company besides heavily committed companies (Warner/sony) is going to make a heavy investment in either format until units are out on the shelves...
but go ahead, believe what you want. I've seen enough format launches to know that Blueray and HD-DVD in their current states are headed for disaster.
$400 next year and aside from a few hits from Sony and maybe Warner (hopefully you will have two machines to play both) priced at $30-40 each, expect to buy a WHOLE LOT of special interest documentaries.... sorry, but DiscoveryHD is only fun for like the firt two weeks you own an HD set..
Are there gonna be Blu Ray recorders from the beginning or will they come later like CD-R and DVD-R? I'm just wondering who is gonna start using Blu Ray discs for non-movie data. Only thing I can think of using them for at the moment is my movie / music collection 
Well, I may as well cancel my Xbox 2 pre-order now.
sohka88 said:
lol.. you don't freaking get it... WHERE ARE THE MOVIE STUDIOS!!!?!? you can have all of the tech partners in the world backing it, but without.. *GASP* software to support it, PEOPLE WON'T BUY IT!!!!!
but obviously your mind is made up... have fun with your 1080i documentaries.... I'll be there too but I have a JVC HS30000U with 15 movies so that's not saying much.
there are already Blueray recorders.. they cost $4000...Jonnyram said:Are there gonna be Blu Ray recorders from the beginning or will they come later like CD-R and DVD-R? I'm just wondering who is gonna start using Blu Ray discs for non-movie data. Only thing I can think of using them for at the moment is my movie / music collection
Well, I may as well cancel my Xbox 2 pre-order now.
HD-DVDR will be along later...
and lest anyone misunderstand me, I am not against either format. Truth be told I am DYING for an HD format that isn't on tape.. I would love to back up my HDTivo files to a disc instead of converting them to TS MPEGs and sending them out to my deck... but the fact is that neither format is compatible and there are no universal players on the horizon, combined with the fact that quite frankly HD film vs. DVD film isn't really compelling to the average consumer.. allow me to point out an identical situation.. DVDAudio and SACD.. THE EXACT same situation.. and both are floundering and will likely end up failing.
Sony was stupid.. they are a bitter wife who is pissed that the DVD Consortium nixed blueray and went with AOD so they are going ahead with Blueray instead.. it doesn't matter to them that they will segment and destroy the launch like they did with high resolution audio. they will throw money at it until it succeeds or dies..
I want HD video, but after having suffered through DVDAudio and SACD it is just TOO similar to expect any different of a story with HDDVD/Blueray.
Sony was stupid.. they are a bitter wife who is pissed that the DVD Consortium nixed blueray and went with AOD so they are going ahead with Blueray instead.. it doesn't matter to them that they will segment and destroy the launch like they did with high resolution audio. they will throw money at it until it succeeds or dies..
I want HD video, but after having suffered through DVDAudio and SACD it is just TOO similar to expect any different of a story with HDDVD/Blueray.
lol... BGM is not a movie studio and fox has NEVER said they are supporting blueray. Sony Pictures and Columbia Pictures are the same company... as for the DVD Consortium:sohka88 said:
Steering Committe
Warner
Disney
Sony
Member
Warner
NBC Universal
Sony
Disney
Fox
really the only major studio missing is viacom.. and you know what, despite all of that support HD-DVD will STILL stumble out of the gates.. you know why? because there will be enough blueray devices out there to cause those studios to hesitate and hold back product for fear of segmenting the market even further...
the technolgies are sound. the partners are lined up and impressive.. but at the end of the day, if Fox, Disney, and Universal aren't releasing their newest and biggest movies, the formats will fail.
Marty Chinn
Member
sohka: You really should stop before you make yourself look any more stupid. Borghe is right about what he's talking about.
oh, as for price
http://www.timefordvd.com/tutorial/HDDVDTutorial.shtml
though you are correct about lower recorder prices currently. Both units (Sony and Panasonic) are around $1900.
http://www.timefordvd.com/tutorial/HDDVDTutorial.shtml
though you are correct about lower recorder prices currently. Both units (Sony and Panasonic) are around $1900.
Then maybe you should start to try to appreciate the differences between historical events and the current situation, and apply that knowledge of yours more accurately...borghe said:
Is this a surprise? The consortium didn't firmly endorse one format for recordability/rewritability and allowed the proliferation of 5 formats. Recordability/rewritability was an afterthought to simple playback of pre-recorded content, hence the leadtime on DVD players ahead of DVD writers, the confusion over formats and the resulting inability to mass market a DVD writer solution in order to help drive down costs.
In contrast the BRD forum has put a focus on writability ahead of a prerecorded format. When BRD devices are planned to become widely available next year, they should have one set of specs each to define prerecorded BRDs, rewritable BRDs and recordable BRDs. There have already been a couple of rewritable BRD devices on the market which help manufacturers fine tune their production techniques for a wider scale distribution of these devices.
In general BRD devices are simply going to offer a more complete package than DVD has over its first 5-6 yrs on the market, if all goes according to plan.
A)It's not just Sony. B)Sony and all the other BRD forum members never intended to submit BRD as a spec for the DVD consortium to ratify/endorse. The DVD Consortium was never given a chance to nix blueray. BRD forum's position was that their format required a new consortium focused on the success of BRD, rather than straddling the worlds of two different formats.
you mean DVDA vs. SACD?kaching said:
I am not talking about plus vs. minus. by way of contrast, manufacturers were able to nip that particular multi-format war in the butt by releasing universal recorders. However, the media at a physical level is almost identical between plus and minus. The same is not true between AOD/HD-DVD and Blue ray. This means universal players will be more akin to universal audio players, meaning they will need to completely different sets of components to accomodate both formats. When universal players first arrive, they will probably be similar to universal audio machines and start at the range of $1200-2000.
The question isn't whether it will offer a more complete package than DVD. It isn't competing with DVD but HD-DVD. In that sense, both formats are on prett equal footing with the exception of space with the lead going to blueray.. but even then you are screwed potentially.. you have a dual layer player, what happens when blue ray goes to three and four layer discs? time to buy a new player.
As for your DVD comparison though.. DVD within its first 5 year (2002):
eclipsed CDROM sales at the retail level
eclipsed CDROM inclusion in new PCs at the consumer level
hasd a fully compatible high resolution audio format introduced
that is pretty impressive. and a year after that (2003) DVDROMs eclipsed CDROMs at the corporate level as well.
I will be amazed if Blueray or HD-DVD ever hits that kind of acceptance, let alone within the first 5 years.
This is complete bullshit. Blue ray WAS submitted to the DVD Consortium along with AOD and one other format (can't remember). In the end AOD was ratified. Even further, the only reason Sony RELEASED Blue Ray recorders in Japan DESPITE their being virtually no market for them was in an attempt to leverage their argument with the DVD consortium.kaching said:
but again please note that I don't hate blue ray.. if they can get a product out and get studio support for it I am all for it. I am admittedly miffed however at two completely incompatible and competing standards though. Sony should have never rushed blue ray to market to gain leverage in an attempt to be ratified by the DVD Forum. Now they have put themselves in a situation identical to SACD and it can't help but lead one to wonder if the format will end up in the same place as the "failed" high resolution audio format.
I admire all of you guys' respect for Blue ray (though some of it seems a little over zealous for a format that has yet to even release a consumer affordable unit and virtually no software). But to insist that it will "win" the war or anything, or even more just make it out of the gate with more studios than just Sony backing.. without studio backing.. well... zip, DLT, and LTO drives are all great in a PC also.. but I don't care a damn about them if I can't watch all of my favorite movies on them.
no, I don't know anything about the future, but I do know exactly where both formats stand now, do know exactly what kind of studio backing each has now, and do have very recent examples of what happens when you release two incompatible competing formats to a market that really isn't anxious to step into either of them.sohka88 said:
neither of you have still countered with the fact that when dealing with hd film to dvd film comparisons the general public doesn't see a difference. the only difference that is dramatic and instantly noticeable by even the non-discerning eye is HD video in sports and whatnot, which WOULDN'T make up the majority of software. sports is getting people to pick up HDTVs, not TV shows or movies.
No, it's not bullshit...borghe said:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/553/553073p2.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/27/toshiba_blue_laser_tech_chosen/
When I have more time, I'll get back to you on the rest of your counterpoints.
Oct 4, 2004 - 20th Century Fox Joins Blu-ray Disc Founders
Twentieth Century Fox has accepted the invitation of the Blu-ray Disc Founders (BDF) becoming the latest member of the group. While the Studio has not committed to publish on the format, it believes that as a Founder it can influence the outcome of key issues including successful content protection as well as production costs and logistics, among other issues. Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment President, Mike Dunn, added, "We look forward to the eventual completion of specifications that will result in a high-definition format with an attractive cost structure similar to current DVD production, within a secure environment with value-added features and interactivity well beyond that offered by today's DVD format".
They are on board.. if you think they will not support it you are insane
Twentieth Century Fox has accepted the invitation of the Blu-ray Disc Founders (BDF) becoming the latest member of the group. While the Studio has not committed to publish on the format, it believes that as a Founder it can influence the outcome of key issues including successful content protection as well as production costs and logistics, among other issues. Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment President, Mike Dunn, added, "We look forward to the eventual completion of specifications that will result in a high-definition format with an attractive cost structure similar to current DVD production, within a secure environment with value-added features and interactivity well beyond that offered by today's DVD format".
They are on board.. if you think they will not support it you are insane
they were onboard with DVD from the start as well... They didn't release their first DVD late 1998.sohka88 said:
all companies are forging the direction that the formats will go, but do you honestly assume a studio will release 3 skus (potentially 4-5 including full fram and vhs copies) for a single movie?
hmmmm... I will look around... back in 2002 there was much talk about Blueray and Toshiba's product (not yet dubbed AOD) along with a red laser format fighting it out for HD-DVD. I had thought that Blue-ray had actually submitted it for consideration back then. but were denied (along with the other two). will try to find it.kaching said:
though in the end it still doesn't change the fact that two products will be competing for shelf space with no studio with the exception of sony committing to either. as a PC storage format Blure ray could definitely win the war, but I frankly couldn't give a shit about PC storage (well, I could but I am much more interested in HD video).
at this point though we are just throwing theories back and forth..
so instead I offer up this.. the thread asked when will we see the first players. that has already been answered.. instead of more future forecasting, let's drop it here and instead pick it up as the first studios start announcing support for the format (as in actually announce that they will release titles.) for my money, aside from sony, I don't believe that will be next year.
As I understand it, the vote was for the adoption of Toshiba/NEC's AOD. The Bluray Founders of the time voted it down in a clear effort to eliminate it as competition. In the first vote, somewhere around 2 years ago, they were successful. More recently another vote was held and AOD was successfuly adopted.
While it wasn't a vote to choose between the two options, it's a bit misleading to say that it was not a part of the general competition between the two standards.
I agree with Borghe. Generally, I'm in favour of established standards winning even over better technology because uniformity is good. This is why I prefer USB over Firewire, and it's why if it comes down to it I'm more likely to support AOD than Bluray. In well established, largely unchanging, markets, standard competition only hurts adoptability, and that's a nowin for me as a consumer.
However, I think they'll both bomb. If one or both of them succeeds, I feel it will be marginal at best: VCD (enthusiasts), MiniDisc (regional/professional), or Betamax (professional) levels. Around 2010, these standards will be looking old again and we'll all be looking at reinvesting in our video setups. In the meantime, DVD adoption is just too huge to stop and say "hey, let's move it up a notch" without completely alienating the regular consumers.
While it wasn't a vote to choose between the two options, it's a bit misleading to say that it was not a part of the general competition between the two standards.
I agree with Borghe. Generally, I'm in favour of established standards winning even over better technology because uniformity is good. This is why I prefer USB over Firewire, and it's why if it comes down to it I'm more likely to support AOD than Bluray. In well established, largely unchanging, markets, standard competition only hurts adoptability, and that's a nowin for me as a consumer.
However, I think they'll both bomb. If one or both of them succeeds, I feel it will be marginal at best: VCD (enthusiasts), MiniDisc (regional/professional), or Betamax (professional) levels. Around 2010, these standards will be looking old again and we'll all be looking at reinvesting in our video setups. In the meantime, DVD adoption is just too huge to stop and say "hey, let's move it up a notch" without completely alienating the regular consumers.