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[UnemployedVillain]

Moe is not an archetype...

 

[Zhao_Yun]

Literal meaning is "pervert".

But I'm not an expert, so I don't know if the average Japanese person would point to a Bible Black OVA and call it "hentai".

I think they would call it an アダルトアニメ (adult anime) or 18禁アニメ (anime for at least 18 year olds) instead.

 

[Jazzy Network]

TIL alot of gaffers don't know or never heard of the word Lolita.

 

[Booshka]

.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Not sure though some people consider shows like Serial Experiment Lane to be proto moe.

But apart from design similarities it's a very different beast

Lain has nothing to do with moe or uguu, what lain has is an art design, not a type of portrayal

 

[TheChaos0]

I think they would call it an アダルトアニメ (adult anime) or 18禁アニメ (anime for at least 18 year olds) instead.

Hentai is a catch-all for anything perverse (or just plain weird).

 

[buddha0991]

.

damn it i only came into this topic to post this

 

[ShinRPGamer]

This is the 2 in 1 Moe special.

 

[TouchMyBox]

.

Humpert Humpert was all about that nice flow.

edit: fuck, I just realized that mister tyrone was saying "nice floors" and I really don't want to know what that means.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Lain has nothing to do with moe or uguu, what lain has is an art design, not a type of portrayal

Yes... I know and I have explained many times that I don't believe Lain is Moe I'm just giving historically context to a design choices which are later used in other anime as designes to go with the moe archtype. I mentioned in my first post in this thread that the actually archetype I don't know where it's from I was only talking about design aspect.

I mean lain is seinen(Though recently that term can mean a lot of things) anime for gods sake just like cowboy bebop.

 

[mantidor]

I thought 'hentai' meant animated porn everywhere though?

I always see moe as being a genuine 'cute genre' term and loli/lolicon while officially meaning an underage character usually means more one that's been sexualised in some way.

Ok its not only meaning but also use, I guess,

Some pornographic anime might be called "hentai" but "hentai" means deviant or perverse in a more general sense, some pornographic anime might not be considered "hentai" at all. I remember last I checked they were just called ero-something (ero-manga, ero-games, ero-anime, etc, etc).

Otaku is anime/manga fan, but in Japan is a bit far from hobbyitss or geeks and closer to socially unacceptable.

Well and it goes on, "moe" is certainly more associated with loli and sexualization of small girls in the west than in Japan, and it will only get more and more like that.

 

[Breads]

As animation budgets went down and big eyes and mouth flaps became more and more acceptable to a specific sector it just happened. I feel it started around between Azumanga Daioh (which itself I wouldn't consider moe) and Lucky Star and exploded around K-on.

As for the other thing it's been around since the 80s at least and has nothing to do with moe. Hell it isn't even an aethetic if that's what you're implying. Higurashi has the same aesthetic and it definitely isn't moe.

So yeah this.

Yes... I know and I have explained many times that I don't believe Lain is Moe I'm just giving historically context to a design choices which are later used in other anime as designes to go with the moe archtype. I mentioned in my first post in this thread that the actually archetype I don't know where it's from I was only talking about design aspect.

I mean lain is seinen(Though recently that term can mean a lot of things) anime for gods sake just like cowboy bebop.

Is wrong. It has nothing to do with character design. Moe might have character designs in common but no chracter design will make a thing moe. Loli is more about character design though and I wonder if this confusion is what prompted the topic being about both.

Why are we having this conversation though. Moe, which is more a story archetype, isn't really represented in JRPGs and loli, although more common, isn't always loli - it's usually just "the young/ smart girl character" where loli is explicitly meant to attract peds.

 

[PillarEN]

But wouldn't you guys say moe got a big boost with The Melencholy of Haruhi Suzumiya? I almost look at that as the show that gave anime the OK to pursue the moe style.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Why are we having this conversation though. Moe, which is more a story archetype, isn't really represented in JRPGs and loli, although more common, isn't always loli - it's usually just "the young/ smart girl character" where loli is explicitly meant to attract peds.

Cause JRPG's are animu and they are bad. Or so i've heard.

Yeah it was a leap of logic to me too.

Most games like Criminal Girls and Conception are not even aimed at the average populace, or representative of a genre at large to begin with.

 

[Phocks]

But wouldn't you guys say moe got a big boost with The Melencholy of Haruhi Suzumiya? I almost look at that as the show that gave anime the OK to pursue the moe style.

Moe isn't a style.

 

[PillarEN]

Moe isn't a style.

Well the kind of facial characteristics which are associated with moe? If not then I'm a bit off I guess.

Or maybe I just associate that kind of style being used for more cutesy kind of shows in general. So it's more of association for me.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

As animation budgets went down and big eyes and mouth flaps became more and more acceptable to a specific sector it just happened. I feel it started around between Azumanga Daioh (which itself I wouldn't consider moe) and Lucky Star and exploded around K-on.

As for the other thing it's been around since the 80s at least and has nothing to do with moe. Hell it isn't even an aethetic if that's what you're implying. Higurashi has the same aesthetic and it definitely isn't moe.

So yeah this.


Is wrong. It has nothing to do with character design.



..

Why are we having this conversation. Moe, which is more a story archetype, isn't really represented in JRPGs and loli, although more common, isn't always loli - it's usually just "the young/ smart girl character"

Listen... I already said all of this I'm not talking about the bloody archetype when a westerner hears moe they assume not a feeling but a character design. The reason for this is that series that have been labeled moe (typically)have a very similar design and I was just pointing out an older anime which shares similarities. I didn't mean to paint a niche but beloved series as moe just meant it as a harmless example of origins of style choices which lead to what people typically consider moe. If you want to get technical you could make a Bodybuilder moe but that isn't as common.

 

[Inuhanyou]

But wouldn't you guys say moe got a big boost with The Melencholy of Haruhi Suzumiya? I almost look at that as the show that gave anime the OK to pursue the moe style.

"MOE", as generally seen today was popularized by pandering to the culture which has contextualized "moe" into a bubble of what we now see as "moe". Yes Kyoto Animation and their runaway success in this area shares a lot of the blame with it becoming mainstream and acceptable media fodder.

Our own view on the term that actually has nothing to do with its original form or definition was in part shaped by that.

It is twice as poignant that one of their last works before delving into that was FMP TSR, which was probably one of their best adaptions completely opposite of that fluff service.

 

[Mr. Wedgewood]

So what's GAR?

 

[Inuhanyou]

So what's GAR?

I think this is not meant in the gaming section...but its basically pure manliness and testosterone to epic levels. First coined from the series GaioGaiGar, that series was basically epic shit happening and the main character overcoming every obstacle just from the power of will with the most overdone results possible, and series like Gurren Lagann took that and ran with it.

 

[Breads]

Listen... I already said all of this I'm not talking about the bloody archetype when a westerner hears moe they assume not a feeling but a character design. The reason for this is that series that have been labeled moe (typically)have a very similar design and I was just pointing out an older anime which shares similarities. I didn't mean to paint a niche but beloved series as moe just meant it as a harmless example of origins of style choices which lead to what people typically consider moe. If you want to get technical you could make a Bodybuilder moe but that isn't as common.

Okay.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

As animation budgets went down and big eyes and mouth flaps became more and more acceptable to a specific sector it just happened. I feel it started around between Azumanga Daioh (which itself I wouldn't consider moe) and Lucky Star and exploded around K-on.

As for the other thing it's been around since the 80s at least and has nothing to do with moe. Hell it isn't even an aethetic if that's what you're implying. Higurashi has the same aesthetic and it definitely isn't moe.

So yeah this.


Is wrong. It has nothing to do with character design. Moe might have character designs in common but no chracter design will make a thing moe. Loli is more about character design though and I wonder if this confusion is what prompted the topic being about both.

Why are we having this conversation though. Moe, which is more a story archetype, isn't really represented in JRPGs and loli, although more common, isn't always loli - it's usually just "the young/ smart girl character" where loli is explicitly meant to attract peds.

"MOE", as generally seen today was popularized by pandering to the culture which has contextualized "moe" into a bubble of what we now see as "moe". Yes Kyoto Animation and their runaway success in this area shares a lot of the blame with it becoming mainstream and acceptable media fodder.

Our own view on the term that actually has nothing to do with its original form or definition was in part shaped by that.

It is twice as poignant that one of their last works before delving into that was FMP TSR, which was probably one of their best adaptions completely opposite of that fluff service.

I suppose this is about the level of quality I can expect from a thread like this.

 

[TheChaos0]

Moe isn't a style.

Mikuru is definitely what you call a moe character, although the show is self aware of that. That's exactly the type of character Haruhi wanted. Althoigh Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya took common tropes and made something interesting out of them.

K-ON was definitely a turning point for the modern moe but mostly because it was so popular. It's not like moe or even moe in Kyoto Animation didn't exist beforehand.

 

[Sakura]

Supposedly the moe aesthetic comes out of shoujo manga.

Moe is not an aesthetic (it's also not an archetype).
Anything can be moe.

The shoujo look often involved detailed art with elaborate clothes, which you see in loli goth characters and the like now.

Tons of shoujo manga still looks like that.

And then later you ended up with stuff like Nanoha, which takes on the aesthetic while being an action series for an older male audience. I've heard that part of the shift is due to the Windows reboot of the Touhou Project franchise, which sexualizes the girls while using shoujo-like designs. Although maybe it's the Touhou fans to blame if that's true, since fan works are are so big with that franchise.

That is silly.
First off Nanoha is a character originally from an eroge (erotic game). Of course the spin off work is for adults.
Secondly, children do not buy DVD's and BD. Which is why many of these shows target the audience that does.
Thirdly, Touhou doesn't really have anything to do with anything.

There are shows airing every season with 'shoujo designs'.

actually it can be called "kusoge"

This man speaks the truth.

 

[John Kowalski]

But wouldn't you guys say moe got a big boost with The Melencholy of Haruhi Suzumiya? I almost look at that as the show that gave anime the OK to pursue the moe style.

If you're talking about school sol comedies with young girls then not really I don't think. Haruhi was relatively complex and would often provide new and different stories. Cute was always relative in Haruhi.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I like anime, but this one makes me feel bad about it. We need Manime back.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I suppose this is about the level of quality I can expect from a thread like this.

Splainin, you need to do it.

My first post here was correcting the OP on the term. It aint an art style.

 

[TheChaos0]

I suppose this is about the level of quality I can expect from a thread like this.

I can't tell if this is meant to be a good or a bad thing. Perhaps you want to contribute to the discussion. I don't mean this as an "attacking" comment but rather your intent is unclear and didn't add anything. It makes it hard to have a proper conversation.

 

[fredrancour]

IT. IS. NOT. A. CHARACTER. DESIGN.

MOE. IS. NOT. A. DESIGN. ANYTHING.

I don't see how this is hard to understand.

I think this is where the linguists I know would be saying, "Language is descriptive, not prescriptive." i.e. once people using a word incorrectly become common enough, the word just gained a new definition and fighiting against it is pointless. That also applies to hobbyists grabbing foreign loan words. The word metamorphosed in the depths of many brains and internet forums to fit a certain character design stereotype even though it was originally about an emotional response.

edit: oops. i see you edited. sorry.

 

[HeelPower]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The unreliable narrator, the middle-aged man, who is defending himself at a trial at the beginning describes the girl as the seductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

This insanely twisted.Is the word loli used in japan by creators and fans as well ? It has exclusively harrowing connotations...

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Splainin, you need to do it.

My first post here was correcting the OP on the term. It aint an art style.

It is tiresome to hear the old cliche about "KyoAni killing anime with all that moe stuff" trotted out for the umpteenth time. K-ON was where KyoAni really took their level of craftsmanship to a new level, especially in season 2. Disappearance of Haruhi - K-ON!! - Nichijou - K-ON!: The Movie - Hyouka is an incredible run of top-notch productions that established KyoAni as masters of their craft. It's made all the more impressive by KyoAni being the only Japanese studio that does not outsource animation, keeping everything in-house and nurturing young animators through their animation school. Toshiyuki Inoue, one of the greatest Japanese animators, has called K-ON "the pinnacle of Japanese animation", and he is right. To talk about the series as the result of "budgets going down" or "selling out" is profoundly in error.

 

[TheChaos0]

I think this is where the linguists I know would be saying, "Language is descriptive, not prescriptive." i.e. once people using a word incorrectly become common enough, the word just gained a new definition and fighiting against it is pointless. That also applies to hobbyists grabbing foreign loan words. The word metamorphosed in the depths of many brains and internet forums to fit a certain character design stereotype even though it was originally about an emotional response.

It feels like no one knew the original definition to begin with. If moe is simply cute design then the word is already obsolete by that design. In the defense of your point, it can be described that particular design aesthetic.

However, it feels like a really vague definition that can be applied to anything cute.

 

[Sakura]

This insanely twisted.Is the word loli used in japan by creators and fans as well ? It has exclusively harrowing connotations...

It's used by the general public.

 

[Tohsaka]

 

[HeelPower]

It's used by the general public.

I don't think its fair to attribute that word to every cute child character..idk not all of them are meant to be in that category.

 

[Lights and Waves]

I believe Moe comes from Hotaru Tomoe, Sailor Saturn from Sailor Moon.

 

[teruterubozu]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The unreliable narrator, the middle-aged man, who is defending himself at a trial at the beginning describes the girl as the suductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

Originally yes, but in Japan "loli" is more specific to "lolicon" or "Lolita Complex". It's more Freudian than literary. And full-on pervy.

 

[Shouta]

In my opinion, the major transition towards "moe" became really noticeable during the late 90s~early 00s. As you mentioned, I think CCS (maybe even CLAMP in general), and by extension the shoujo genre had a lot to do with it. CLAMP almost always includes themes in their works that appeal to a broad audience, and CCS was no exception. There was also the release of Digi Charat around that time, which really seemed like the first otaku-targeted anime/manga series with a shoujo-esque artstyle to reach some level of mainstream popularity in Japan. There were plenty of other franchises created during that era which definitely contributed to it (such as Sister Princess), but the two aforementioned ones stick out the most in my mind.

CCS would be, IMO, the first big example of what we could be considered moe, in the modern sense of the word. The trend didn't start taking off until the mid-2000s though.

I think this is where the linguists I know would be saying, "Language is descriptive, not prescriptive." i.e. once people using a word incorrectly become common enough, the word just gained a new definition and fighiting against it is pointless. That also applies to hobbyists grabbing foreign loan words. The word metamorphosed in the depths of many brains and internet forums to fit a certain character design stereotype even though it was originally about an emotional response.

edit: oops. i see you edited. sorry.

Right. Words change over time and take on additional meanings as people hear it, whether or not it's right or wrong. Too many folks are sticks in the mud about that. Moe as a word has definitely accrued additional meanings, especially for English speaking audiences.

I moved the thread to OT because there's been 3 pages and no game related discussion.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

This insanely twisted.Is the word loli used in japan by creators and fans as well ? It has exclusively harrowing connotations...

I feel in most of youth in japan it is a though of as more a fashion but its original meaning is known as ロリコン(rorikon) is a japanese word which does get used in animes.

 

[TheChaos0]

It is tiresome to hear the old cliche about "KyoAni killing anime with all that moe stuff" trotted out for the umpteenth time. K-ON was where KyoAni really took their level of craftsmanship to a new level, especially in season 2. Disappearance of Haruhi - K-ON!! - Nichijou - K-ON!: The Movie - Hyouka is an incredible run of top-notch productions that established KyoAni as masters of their craft. It's made all the more impressive by KyoAni being the only Japanese studio that does not outsource animation, keeping everything in-house and nurturing young animators through their animation school. Toshiyuki Inoue, one of the greatest Japanese animators, has called K-ON "the pinnacle of Japanese animation", and he is right. To talk about the series as the result of "budgets going down" or "selling out" is profoundly in error.

I don't think anyone said anything bad about K-ON or Haruhi yet. Moe is not a bad thing. Like many things, it's the application is what matters. This particular conversation was about when moe as a trend caught the traction. It was definitely around K-ON time but it's not fault of KyoAni products for creating quality animation with moe elements and everyone trying to copy that without the context that makes their shows great (more often than not).

 

[Sakura]

I don't think its fair to attribute that word to every cute child character..idk not all of them are meant to be in that category.

Well, the origins of the word are kind of irrelevant. That is where it comes from, but that is not really what it refers to or means.

 

[Extollere]

Man, I just finished reading the book Lolita. Pretty good book if you ask me. Excellent, actually, except for the comical tussle at the end.

 

[TheChaos0]

Well, the origins of the word are kind of irrelevant. That is where it comes from, but that is not really what it refers to or means.

I've heard it being used for any child character, which would be a wrong usage.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I've heard it being used for any child character, which would be a wrong usage.

yeah that would be the incorrect use though the term loli gets thrown around a lot like that I feel that has to be some form of sexualization to be considered loli ie upskirt shots

 

[Battlechili]

Well, as a massive weeb...I believe moe in particular was popularized somewhere around the time when shows like Lucky Star and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya started popping up in 2006 and 2007. Moe became hugely popular, although I think its worth noting that Japan has always had an affinity for cute things, even much farther back. Supposedly this is attributed to the very serious culture it has. People needed an outlet to relax, and so cute things became popular because they're fun. That combined with Lucky Star and such coming into popularity, anime and anime oriented titles began to focus on moe and the sort of things that made shows like Lucky Star popular. Shows began to copy some of Lucky Star's ideas. Cute young girls being funny. And this escalated, and thus loli was born, since typically these shows featured cute young girls. And since people have a fascination for cute...well, this escalated.

That's my understanding of it. Probably somewhat inaccurate, but that's what I know.

Moe isn't a style.

Cute young girls. No noses and wide cheeks. Characters do nothing but cute simple things, and typically aren't super smart.

 

[Fencedude]

And then later you ended up with stuff like Nanoha, which takes on the aesthetic while being an action series for an older male audience. I've heard that part of the shift is due to the Windows reboot of the Touhou Project franchise, which sexualizes the girls while using shoujo-like designs. Although maybe it's the Touhou fans to blame if that's true, since fan works are are so big with that franchise.

Damn those Touhou games sure have sexy art! You can clearly see how they are entirely responsible for this phenomenon!

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Well, as a massive weeb...I believe moe in particular was popularized somewhere around the time when shows like Lucky Star and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya started popping up in 2006 and 2007. Moe became hugely popular, although I think its worth noting that Japan has always had an affinity for cute things, even much farther back. Supposedly this is attributed to the very serious culture it has. People needed an outlet to relax, and so cute things became popular because they're fun. That combined with Lucky Star and such coming into popularity, anime and anime oriented titles began to focus on moe and the sort of things that made shows like Lucky Star popular. Shows began to copy some of Lucky Star's ideas. Cute young girls being funny. And this escalated, and thus loli was born, since typically these shows featured cute young girls. And since people have a fascination for cute...well, this escalated.

That's my understanding of it. Probably somewhat inaccurate, but that's what I know.

I consider loli and moe to be seperate entites with loli being older (irony) but with moe catching in popularity some authors abused the chance to try to get loli into the mainstream.

 

[Killer Queen]

This insanely twisted.Is the word loli used in japan by creators and fans as well ? It has exclusively harrowing connotations...

My reaction exactly.

 

[Battlechili]

I consider loli and moe to be seperate entites with loli being older (irony) but with moe catching in popularity some authors abused the chance to try to loli into the mainstream.

I dunno about that. While I'm sure loli existed long before the moe craze became popular, its got very similar traits. I've seen moe often called a fetish in places, so I don't think its out of the question to consider them much the same. Cute young girls doing cute things. Only one is sexual and cute at the same time.
Although I'm saying this, loli doesn't NECESSARILY have sexual connotations...It just usually does.

 

[Shouta]

Well, as a massive weeb...I believe moe in particular was popularized somewhere around the time when shows like Lucky Star and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya started popping up in 2006 and 2007. Moe became hugely popular, although I think its worth noting that Japan has always had an affinity for cute things, even much farther back. Supposedly this is attributed to the very serious culture it has. People needed an outlet to relax, and so cute things became popular because they're fun. That combined with Lucky Star and such coming into popularity, anime and anime oriented titles began to focus on moe and the sort of things that made shows like Lucky Star popular. Shows began to copy some of Lucky Star's ideas. Cute young girls being funny. And this escalated, and thus loli was born, since typically these shows featured cute young girls. And since people have a fascination for cute...well, this escalated.

That's my understanding of it. Probably somewhat inaccurate, but that's what I know.

Cute young girls. No noses and wide cheeks. Characters do nothing but cute simple things, and typically aren't super smart.

2005 or 2006 is about the time it became a real force in anime. Densha Otoko introduced the term to the lexicon for non-anime folks in 2004 and it sort of blew up after that.

Also, folks should read the link sixteen-bit posted. It's pretty good and layouts a lot of things. It also points out why folks associate moe with style, though in a sort of roundabout way.