So that semi-automatic gun in his car was just planted, right?
White cop shoots unarmed black man dead in Arizona
- Thread starter Renzoku
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So that semi-automatic gun in his car was just planted, right?
vas_a_morir
Banned
They do, but I'm going to guess there are several limitations on why you can't use a taser in a life or death struggle with someone who you presume has a firearm. Generally, they have only 1 shot, very short range, difficult aim, and are not guaranteed to hook. If you felt your life was in the balance, would you gamble your life on that one short-range, difficult to aim shot? I don't know shit about police work, but I imagine that a taser is meant for unruly combative suspects who won't stop flailing more than for mortal combat. If they can improve less-than-lethal tech to make it capable of reliably stopping an armed assailant in life or death sorties, then maybe this will be viable. But, tasers are probably way down the list of weapons you'd use in such a situation.
We got cops on this forum. They could probably tell us what's up, as I have no authority or in-depth knowledge on the subject and I offer only conjecture.
Flying Toaster
Member
It might work in the UK but in Arizona it is a bit different. Arizonans pride themselves on gun ownership, there are a lot of conceal carriers and even more non conceal carriers in this state.
It is not a far off statement to say it is really like the Wild West here in Phoenix. Everyone and their freaking mom legally owns a gun and well Illegal arms are a huge issue here in Phoenix because we are a border state.
Operation Fast and Furious the debacle with the US Government and the Mexican Cartels was here in Phoenix.
Cops are already on edge, it is a dangerous situation and so when suspects do not do as requested or comply with the officer it becomes dicey.
This does not mean I condone what happened. I am just saying that this situation is not like the situation in the UK where gun ownership and the ability to obtain guns is a lot lower than here in Arizona.
The chances of a heart attack or a stroke from a taser attack is far less likely than a death caused by a FUCKING BULLET TO THE TORSO. Even with the obesity problem in the US.
First of all, the only accounts I've seen of this incident are from the police reports. We know that these can be unreliable, especially in cases of potential police wrongdoing.
And as I said before, cops should attempt to use every non-lethal means available to them. Assuming the facts in the police report are accurate, this certainly isn't as outrageous as many other incidents. But it's still tragic and I get the sense that firearms are the first solution for police as soon as an encounter doesn't go 100% as planned.
Darren Wilson would have had one to use against Mike Brown, but they're apparently uncomfortable.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯flyinpiranha
Member
This seems justified going off what I'm reading in the actual article and not the clickbait thread title.
Big Baybee
Member
The cop didn't know about the gun in his car until afterwards. The cop said he thought he saw and felt a gun on the dead guys person, which turned out to be false. Unless you think the dead guys ghost moved it back to the truck when he died.
Oh trust me, I believe what the cop did is wrong, but the comment "there's literally nothing a black person would keep in their back seat that isn't a gun" is just really stupid in this case.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I am generally skeptical of police authority. I think America has a ridiculous problem with institutionalized racism. I think that the illegality of marijuana is crazy, and I think the mass incarceration of young black males over dinky street drug "crimes" immoral and scandalous.
All of that being said: it sounds like this cop was doing his job properly.
All of that being said: it sounds like this cop was doing his job properly.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Why? That the victim reaching into his back seat could only mean he had a gun was the stupid assumption that started the whole mess.
The police in the states are just terrified of black people and it's really, really sad.
Flying Toaster
Member
This is a generalization. It is sad that you feel that way.
Police in the states don't trust anyone they pull over. Not all cops are dirty, racist shit bags. It is annoying that a lot of the general consensus says otherwise.
Coriolanus
Banned
Yeah, no.
That's bullshit.
Compare with this.
Remember to double the cop fatality rates chart values because they're for 50k hab.
Oh my, police officers, super dangerous job! Not even in the fucking top ten, and even in the most dangerous state it still is more dangerous to be a bloody truck driver than a cop.
Cry me a bloody river. Or spill one, if you're a cop.
Yes, it's better to wait and confirm by visual identification that the suspect is pulling a firearm
Simon Belmont
Banned
Why aren't these guys being punished then? If all the good apples are looking out for the bad apples, are there really any good apples?
vas_a_morir
Banned
I feel you are being disingenuous. He actually had a gun. The cop's presumption was correct. That's just good police work, isn't it? He had a gun. He was refusing to comply and reaching where a concealed firearm would be while being belligerent. The officer tried to apprehend him without resorting to discharging his firearm DESPITE this. He could be lying, but taking this story at face-value, he is probably one of the good cops. The NYC chokers? Bad cops. It's not correct to conflate the two.
Flying Toaster
Member
Very good question. The entire American justice system needs a revamp. From authoritative figures abusing powers to an archaic system of laws that clearly target minorities (drug laws are an example).
There is no one button reset solution to fix all the issues though. This fact does not make it ok that the system is broken just a fact that it is a major issue and is going to be a pain in the ass to fix.
Simon Belmont
Banned
He didn't have a gun on him or within reach while the confrontation was happening, so at that point the gun would be no more relevant than if it were at his home.
Maybe it's me, but I would define apprehending an unarmed suspect without killing then "good police work".
Fact is, most of theses cases involve someone committing a crime. The problem is, people are often quick to say "if they were committing a crime, it was them committing the crime in the first place that led to their death".
That logic is flawed, as committing a crime does not auto equate to deserving death. It doesn't automatically justify someone being killed. It doesn't justify using lethal force. You have to look closely at what the person allegedly breaking the law was doing, and what led to the actual use of lethal force.
The problem is, far too often it seems black people (who already largely get treated more harshly under the law), also have more cases of lethal force being used under questionable situations.
Even race issues aside, Americans are far too forgiving of Law Enforcement, and ruthlessly unforgiving of "criminals" (hence why the prison system is really fucked up, and no one gives a shit. They are criminal amirite?).
Anyways, in some cases I think the person being alleged of breaking the law do put cops in a situation where lethal force made sense. But I still think cops are way too quick to jump to lethal force. I guess the point I'm making is, every single case needs to be looked at in terms of why the lethal force was used. And then determined whether it was negligence, outright murder, or something else etc.
The fault in this case, if there is any, lies with the training not the actions of the officer. Based on the current info, it looks like the cop acted within police procedure/training. This is very different from what happened with Garner.
It really is. They can't be trusted to act accordingly when dealing with a black man. This would result in probably some more police deaths but would save far more civilian lives.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
if the gun was legally owned, there is nothing illegal about having a gun in your car in AZ I believe.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
which is the job of police....protect and serve....not judge, jury, and execute.
They want to use military equipment like a police state, they get stricter rules for use of deadly force in my book.
If this was just some random black dude sitting in his car, you could make such a comment. The guy was called in as a drug dealer. As it is, the cop may have been wrong, but it was not a stupid assumption that he may have had a gun in his car, since he HAD A GUN IN HIS CAR.
People should be outraged at this story, I just get annoyed with stupid sarcastic comments that help nothing.
Simon Belmont
Banned
What good does telling somebody to take their hand out of their pocket going to do if you shoot them when they try and comply?
wait, i thought he didn't comply?
AbsolutBro
Member
Belmont is being more than a little disingenuous, given that according to the article the victim was shot while the two were struggling on the ground.
C'mon man...
It's unfortunate that this guy died. I wish the cop had a camera on him.
Simon Belmont
Banned
AZ is a conceal carry state. You could assume that with pretty much everybody. If it was such a dangerous situation, he should have waited for the backup he called for.
I really don't care for people excusing this sort of thing, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
The American police force really need some training on how to diffuse a situation without resorting to blowing someones brains out. Just because someone doesn't comply that shouldn't give the right to kill them. Fucking numbskulls.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
What military equipment was this cop using?
Simon Belmont
Banned
Hard to play the quoting game on my phone, however the article states the officer fired when he feared he was losing his grip on the guys hand. Presumably he wasn't afraid of the guy keeping his hand in his pocket.
Flying Toaster
Member
Funnily enough, well not funny but interestingly enough Mesa Arizona was one of the first Police Departments in America to use cameras on cops. Phoenix is prepping for the program.
Fun fact time. Complaints against Mesa PD dropped a lot.
I think cameras on uniformed police officers need to be a permanent thing.
pretty much. hearing cops describe their jobs, you'd think they're an occupying force dealing with guerilla tactics
Flying Toaster
Member
It is not that simple. Different social geographic areas are going to be vastly different depending on multiple variables.
Resident_UA
Member
Where does it say that he was in possession of a gun?! It says that he was unarmed.
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Per Federal law possessing a firearm while dealing drugs is a felony act. It is illegal in all 50 states. You don't even have to have it on your person or in your car. I knew a kid in college who was dealing some pretty heavy stuff, cops raided his apartment and found a gun in his back closet, no where near the door or his stash, still an automatic Class 3 Felony.
Also, as to the taser issue, you can't use a taser if you're within 8 feet of who you're shooting at, the chances you'll tase yourself are too great. Remember, electricity tends to jump between objects in close proximity.
The guy clearly saw the cop, panicked, and made some bad decisions. It sucks that he died, but I don't think you can responsibly draw parallels between this and Garner.
flyinpiranha
Member
These stats aren't very telling of anything. The cop one you included is "The following map illustrates average annual 2008-2012 per capita death rates for both law enforcement and corrections officers" ... And in their link it even states:
This is just a really bad comparison. "Dangerous to be a truck driver" while true to some extent isn't because the driving of the truck is dangerous
Sawce
Now, I'm not implying all cop deaths weren't because of negligence and I'm not implying that all truck drivers are addicts. But comparing these two statistics just doesn't make sense. Just seems like a really weird comparison. Like, most heart attacks happen in your home so you shouldn't stay home type of logic.
CrimzonSamurai
Member
He left the gun in his car when he ran.
For what I see this mostly a gun issue. The officer was seemed to think the suspect had a gun (and he in fact did, it just wasn't in his pocket). They got into a struggle after what sounds like multiple non-compliance with orders to stand down. This is something where if guns were much more rare this fear would have been mitigated and deadly force would be less likely to be used. At the story's face value it does not seem unwarranted.
No but it does change when people can and do have guns. We are a society where shootings are quite common and so just the fact that they exist will naturally escalate a situation where a suspect is acting strangely or irrationally and lack of weapons cannot be confirmed.
No but it does change when people can and do have guns. We are a society where shootings are quite common and so just the fact that they exist will naturally escalate a situation where a suspect is acting strangely or irrationally and lack of weapons cannot be confirmed.
Resident_UA
Member
I wonder how many people that make this argument have never broken the law themselves...
Simon Belmont
Banned
Come on, the guy was running away.
Resident_UA
Member
What does this have to do with anything? He was still unarmed.
Yeah, no kidding. It's easy to break the law and have privilege.
My experience as an American though over 20 + years, is definitely that most Americans are NOT sympathetic to people that have broken the law. Which is why i think you've seen this bizarre evolution over time where people tend to respect law enforcement no questions asked, and have no sympathy for someone being killed.
It's as if, someone breaking the law automatically sentences someone to death. It's them breaking the law that led to it. It basically reminds me of conservatives that take the view of "if people only worked harder, and tried....they could become rich". "If only the person hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been shot".
Insane logic.
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Yeah, and then a CQC struggle ensued. You can't really use a taser at a moving target, it's a fixed-length wire with a barb on the end of it, it has limited range. By the time he got close enough it was a brawl.
Every time I see someone get tased they are standing still.
Again, I'm not saying that there weren't other ways this could have been handled, but that's a chaotic situation in which two people are both afraid for their life. I don't think any amount of "what would a reasonable person do" can be put on this in retrospect. Hindsight is a luxury awarded to only those who weren't involved.
This entire situation makes no fucking sense.
why was dude still in his vehicle?
why the chase INTO AN APARTMENT BUILDING?
why the lack of decisiveness early on?
There's got to be a lot more to this. OP is a shitlord for being disingenuous out the gate when you don't need to look THAT hard to find an article about a brown person getting shot in America. But for the record, you reach at your waistband after a chase or being belligerent... you're gonna get blasted in just about any country.
why was dude still in his vehicle?
why the chase INTO AN APARTMENT BUILDING?
why the lack of decisiveness early on?
There's got to be a lot more to this. OP is a shitlord for being disingenuous out the gate when you don't need to look THAT hard to find an article about a brown person getting shot in America. But for the record, you reach at your waistband after a chase or being belligerent... you're gonna get blasted in just about any country.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Even if it was there I really think cops shouldn't be allowed to fire until the gun is in hand and physically pointed at the officer.
I think cops should have a responsibility to never fire their gun unless directly threatened or fired upon.
If they are just allowed to kill whoever that denies them the right to a fair trial since you know they're FUCKING DEAD. You could probably make a really round about case that a cop killing some one without having a need to is obstruction of justice rather than serving it.
But that's just like my opinion, man.
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