White cop shoots unarmed black man dead in Arizona
- Thread starter Renzoku
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CrimsonCommie
Member
You do know that's self reported and they aren't required to report that right? A lot of estimates have it over 1000 a year.
When video evidence appears after an incident like this, you realize that a vast majority of the time the police are completely making up their side of the story to put then in the clear. They then pressure witnesses and victims to admit to things they didn't actually see, people have been sent to jail and prison for years because of this. Police investigate police, government determines what is law and what is not, and police are government employees. They are cleared of any wrong doing in a large number of circumstances where people unjustly end up hurt or killed.
The guy he killed was not holding anybody hostage, he wasn't robbing a convenience store at gunpoint, he didn't threaten the lives of anyone, and the cop still felt justified in using force to apprehend him because two witness say they saw him engaging in business. (AKA selling drugs). Based on the story, the cop had no justification to confront, no justification to arrest, and no justification to shoot. I hope a video is released (I haven't been able to find one).
The guy he killed was not holding anybody hostage, he wasn't robbing a convenience store at gunpoint, he didn't threaten the lives of anyone, and the cop still felt justified in using force to apprehend him because two witness say they saw him engaging in business. (AKA selling drugs). Based on the story, the cop had no justification to confront, no justification to arrest, and no justification to shoot. I hope a video is released (I haven't been able to find one).
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Well when the estimates have an actual list that can be cross-checked with death records I will be more inclined to believe them. I don't accept the 409 as absolute fact either, I understand the reporting is voluntary and unreliable, but what they do report is verifiable.
Citizen Mane
Member
If this is the video I'm thinking of, the audio is one of the most disturbing things I have ever heard...
evilromero
Member
This is of course reasonable but it's not the point I was trying to argue. One way to avoid a bad situation is to follow commands (I understand this won't always work but it should be the first step). Now keep in mind, I'm not arguing that we should be happy with our current police state, but it's best to consider steps to avoid a dangerous situation.
I see what you're saying. I just think that it's a bit much to ask of a cop to wait until he's sees a gun pointing at him before he acts. Unfortunately, we live in a time/country where people are capable of such horrid things. It creates an aura of fear and paranoia.
Fucking sucks but it's our reality right now.
Gotta agree.
Hindsight is 20/20. You know. We can all judge the cops actions "he should have done this should have had that."
But he did everything by the book and had a legitimate fear for his life. In this situation a body camera could have corroborated his story too.
It's a sucky situation that someone had to die, but you can't really punish the cop here. Wish people would stop jumping to a side in these kind of events and just review the situation.
If this is the video I'm thinking of, the audio is one of the most disturbing things I have ever heard...
Yea. That video rocked me to my core and I was fucked up for a few days. That and the one where you basically listen to a family die in car crash are two of the most disturbing things I've ever heard.
adamsappel
Member
I'm sorry, but too many recent (and not so recent) events make me skeptical of any story the police say. Do we have any corroborating evidence to the police claims? Finding a gun in the car after you've shot someone dead doesn't retroactively justify the shooting. I'd say it makes it look worse, even.
Not too mention I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the gun was planted by the officers. That's how much I trust our police.
We need an elite moral code associated with our law enforcement officials. Like Jedis. We need Jedis.
Why should it? That's what they're expected to do. When they abuse their power and unjustifiably murder unarmed citizens is when it should become newsworthy
AbsolutBro
Member
There are plenty of videos on youtube showing officers using tasers instead of their firearms. It just almost never makes the news when they do.
I guess with the way things are going, chasing down an unarmed black man, then shooting and killing him is proper protocol. It's okay that he's dead, because the officer saw that he "placed one or both hands in his waistband area" (One or both, he's not sure! Who knows!) and he maybe felt a gun in his pocket that was actually far away in the SUV. Rumain Brisbon was shot dead by an officer who was not injured at all in a struggle that the officer escalated. I guess he should've trained himself not to panic when resisting arrest, so that cop would have other options than to put two bullets in his chest.
We need to stop shrugging our shoulders and saying "well, he did what he had to" when unarmed people are killed by cops. Cops aren't soldiers, and they're not supposed to be yanking out their firearms in any pressure situation.
Lionheart1827
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8-ycSkoYfc
The description in the youtube video explains most of what happens.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Yeah. I'm much more suspicious of instances in which police claim a gun was pulled.
I'm asking you what you think about it. I think it's clear I was asking for your opinion, not the law.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Yes. People can change the laws. That is what people want. Not only the law but its enforcement.
It should be illegal for cops to shoot someone running away because you think they have a gun.
Those are the reported numbers, which many departments don't provide. Not thousands but ~ 1000 are estimated.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
He wasn't in the act of running away when he was shot.
boiled goose
good with gravy
The cop chased down someone not complying by himself and got into a physical altercation? How was it going to end??
It was incredibly stupid of the cop. He was endangering himself to the point where he was gonna have to kill someone.
Agreed. People need to understand that not all cops just shoot on sight. The man was given order by an officer of the law to show his hands and he kept reaching for something in his waistband.
I wonder what GAF would be like if a cop doesn't open fire and that guy ends up killing a cop because of it.
Also, I love how this thread states the cop was white and the dead guy was black. Shit like this just fuels the flames that are already burning.
Shamrock7r
Member
Is your assertion that any time a person is being detained by an officer, and that person runs away, the officer should not give chase if they are alone?
Sato Koiji
Member
It was a do or die situation. You cant expect the cop to wait for the guy to pull his gun for confirmation because you will be dead by then especially with a suspicious combative suspect.
The cops reputation should be enough to freakin' cooperate man...
The cops reputation should be enough to freakin' cooperate man...
Reading this thread makes this video seem relavant to the discussion. Cops often don't have a lot of time to make life or death situations. Look closely....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=670841776267356&fref=nf
Maybe a little NSFW.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=670841776267356&fref=nf
Maybe a little NSFW.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Are they dangerous?
They should use their judgement and training. If you are going to put yourself in a position where you might kill an unarmed person wait for help.
Dude cmon are you serious.
It's the cops JOB to chase down someone who has committed a crime.
If someone is suspected of comitting a crime and they run a way the cop is EXPECTED to give chase. Not just' LOOKS LIKE THEY GOT AWAY.
He called for back up. It takes time. He was trying to aprehend a criminal. Criminal resisted. Cop thought he had a gun, he was reaching into the pocket. Thought he felt it. There was a struggle. Cops life is assumed to be in danger, so he escalates to lethal force.
Weather the cop made up that he felt a gun or he saw the waistbad stuff is up for interpretation. Without proper footage it won't be able to clear.
There's an old legal adage that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table." My opinion is irrelevant because the officer's actions, based on what we currently know, appear to be justified. But since you're asking me to pound the table, I would say the loss of human life is wrong and we should strive to find a better way to police our society.
IMO, it is unrealistic to expect a cop to wait until a gun is brandished before he or she fires. Such a requirement would open up a whole different can of worms where a "wallet", comb, cellphone or any anything can be misconstrued as a gun. It ultimately all goes back to training and the way police perceive suspects.
P.S. I posted a video earlier in the thread which shows the huge difference in mentality and training between cops in the US and in Nordic countries.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
409 justifiable deaths caused by police. I can't find a stat that has total non justified deaths.
Resisting arrest isn't a death sentence. Cops aren't Judge Dredd.
Princess Carl
Member
Then why don't cops always engage in high speed chases?
Bolded for the emphasis, why should any one of those things should be given in favor of the cop given that we now know his life was never in any mortal danger? Thinking and assumptions aren't good enough for cops to keep killing people without consequence.
Any change to make them think twice before protecting themselves with deadly force will put them in more danger, yes. This should be a necessary change.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
No, but here is a novel idea: don't run from police, nor fight them or act belligerent towards them.
You know, this simply wouldn't have happened if:
1. the guy hadn't run away
2. the guy hadn't been selling drugs
3. the guy hadn't resisted the officer by fighting him off
I mean, is it really so hard to show police officers some respect and courtesy?
I suppose it is when you are doing very illegal things and driving around with semi automatic weapons...
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Eric Garner didn't run from police, spoke to them in polite terms, and was strangled to death.
boiled goose
good with gravy
And this illustrates the problem.
Their job is to ARREST, CHASE DOWN,ENFORCE. Not longer is it protect and serve.
I don't want to live in a fucking police state. The cops work for US. We give them their authority and their guns. I want them to change how they act.
Completely unrelated cases and you're doing a huge disservice to the actual events that transpired in the Garner case. He was visibly agitated and fed up with years of harassment from street cops. They (NYPD) gradually pushed him to the mental breaking point we saw on video, where they felt he was "uncooperative" and therefore justified in taking him down with force.
If the guy was an armed drug dealer fleeing and resisting, then I think the cops in this case were doing their jobs for once.
Princess Carl
Member
Again, his premise is incorrect. Police are absolutely not required to chase down someone. Police leadership regularly make judgement calls to not chase a suspect due to a greater risk to the public safety from the chase itself.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Yeah, I'm more talking about this guy today. Certainly there are actual instances of Police brutality and racism, I'm not denying that, but this case does not seem to be one of them to me. Further info and evidence might change that opinion of course.
Shake Appeal
Member
So he has the right to shoot someone? Insane. It's just getting crazy how many of these police killings happen... and each time, the suspect was unarmed.
King Cobra
Banned
This is the most pathetic attempt I've seen at a rebuttal, you can't debate his points but you throw in a completely unrelated case and not only do a disservice to the Eric Garner case but prove people against this are just grasping at straws. Please don't do that.
I don't know the details beyond the article. Do we have any other evidence other than what the cop said happened?
Not sure what the policy is on that actually. I always assume if a suspect takes off the cop chases after him and calls for back up.
We know his life wasn't in danger AFTER the fact. Its SO easy to pick these things apart from your computer after it happened. But assuming the cops testimony is true then the cop had a very legitimate fear that he was in mortal danger.
Let's keep in mind, officer gave him several orders to show hands. Victim didn't comply. That sets off red flags. Not enough to use lethal force, but red flags indeed.
He then saw the suspect put his hands in his waistband area. This would already make me shit my pants.
Instead of firing then there, which the cop had good composure not to, he chased him down and there was a struggle. The cop claims he felt the handleof a gun while holding the victims hands in his pocket. This would immediatley call for alarm. The suspect didn't want to put his hands up, and the victim has something that resembles a gun handle in his pocket.
At this point the officer is STILL showing restraint. But the victim will not comply. The struggle continues into an apartment. The officer lost grip of the suspects hand, and out of fear the guy did had a gun the cop fired his weapon, fearing for his life.
*interesting to note, the story says a gun and pills were found in the SUV, but they didn't mention if anything was found on the guy. What was the handle he felt*
So what you and I assume many others are saying is that we scrap a basic principle of police training. In that an officer should be able to defend himself if he believes he is in mortal danger.
You want an officer who chased someone down, struggled with them because they weren't complying with simple demands, saw the suspect put something from the car into his waistband area, felt something resembling a handle in his pocket..... to wait until that weapon is visible and wait until that weapon is being pointed at the officer before they can use deadly force?
That's REALLY asking a lot of someone. We should hold cops up to a higher standard than most civilians but this is just absurd. They have a right to come home at the end of a shift.
No.
And I'm waiting. A lot of that article doesn't add up to me.
They typically don't unless they absolutely have to these days. High Speed chases have bottomed out since the early 90s. Most forces don't even entertain the idea anymore unless there is a big reason to push on. Very uncommon these days.
I also don't see what the problem is here exactly. An armed drug dealer was killed after a physical confrontation. This is a win for the local community in my books and I would not lose any sleep over such individuals.
You can be skeptical as to what happened of course but in principle I can't blame the officer (assuming his account is correct).
Shake Appeal
Member
Incidentally, the penalty for being an "armed drug dealer" isn't death, nor should it be. For a country that prides itself on its "freedom," we're far too quick to excuse violence by the authorities.
eh...
a lot people miss the point in a lot of these instances. the guy could've been ISIS and holding a small child in his trunk next to an RPG. it wouldn't change the circumstances here at all really
It isn't but when said drug dealer tries to escape and then violently resists law enforcement, and the arresting officer has reason to believe he is armed, then I don't really see how you can imply that he was part of some war against black people and the shooting was unjustified. That's definitely the angle with this "white cop shoots unarmed black man" headline.
Comparing apples to oranges. British constables and US police officers do not receive the same training, do not deal with the same types of criminals and most importantly are dealing with completely different gun laws.
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