• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

White House plans to push House GOP for friendlier Russia sanctions deal

You guys are all conflating what I've actually said and are spoiling for a fight where there is none.

OK, if you're legitimately not buying the story, here's a primer on how I consider the believably of reporting based on unnamed sources.

I'll first note that the vast majority of all political reporting is based off anonymous sourcing. Of all the Trump scandal stories, I believe I've seen only two actual named sources:
  1. Comey's friend Benjamin Wittes, who revealed their conversations to the New York Times and other outlets. Wittes' reports are not based off any Comey memos, even though Trump's lawyer has attempted to insinuate they are. He also runs the Lawfare Blog.
  2. Dan Fried, a newly retired State Department official who was the Coordinator for Sanctions Policy. He's talked about administration attempts to remove Russian sanctions.

So, how do I decide if a story is believable or not? Here's the basic process I follow:


1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

No outlet has been 100% correct. You cannot throw out all of the New York Times' reporting just because they got one or two stories wrong. Referencing a single incorrect story from an outlet is not a refutation of any future reporting from that outlet.

So, NYT/WaPo are rather sterling in this regard. NBC/CBS news are rather high as well. Politico/The Hill have also been pretty reliable. CNN perhaps a bit lower, but they've been rather good lately. Fox News is basically unreliable, unless they are verifying another outlet's reporting.

'Twitter' does not count as an outlet. If you see a reporter on Twitter, look at their employer and their track record.

Here I'll mention 'The Intercept' is basically unreliable. The only thing I needed to know to discount them is to see how horribly they handled the anonymously sourced reporting they received. They might as well have changed their website address to www.throw-reality-winner-in-prison.com with their handling of that situation. We've known about printer tracking dots for over a decade at this point; it was completely irresponsible to publish straight scans the of the documents they were given.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

If other outlets independently confirm the reporting, that makes it more believable.

As an example, on Trump's birthday, the Washington Post reported he is under investigation for obstruction of justice.

On Thursday, NBC News independently verified the information and reported on it.

Be careful here to not conflate instances where another outlet independently verifies a claim, and instances where another outlet reports on the original reporting:

U.S. President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post reported on Wednesday, citing unidentified officials.
(emphasis added)

In this case, NYT is reporting on WaPo's original reporting. That's not an independent verification, and it does not increase or decrease the believably of the claim. Actually, if you look closer at the article, the byline is 'By REUTERS'. So it's actually NYT publishing Reuters' reporting on WaPo's original reporting.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

This is a bit harder, but at this point we've seen enough bylines containing names like David Fahrenthold and Maggie Haberman to start recognizing the names. Some outlets don't use bylines, but it's rare.

Since we're talking individuals now, I'll mention that Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept is considered unreliable. Even ignoring his track record pre-Reality Winner, that incident should make it clear to not trust his reporting without independent verification. Also, Louise Mensch and Claude Taylor on Twitter are basically loons.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The actual citation of anonymous sources is important. There is a difference between "a source familiar with the matter" and "U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports".

While in both cases, we don't know who the anonymous sources are, we have a way to validate or falsify the reporting if the sources are ever publicly revealed.

When anonymous sources are cited by a reporter, both the reporter and the source agree on the actual citation. The reporter likely wants the more specific citation, and the source the least specific. They compromise, and agree on the actual text of the citation.

Always think about who the citation could reasonably apply to.

In the case of the Kushner stories linked above, "a source familiar with the matter" could be Kushner himself, or a Russian spy, or Kushner's tennis partner who talked to him about it. The possible levels of source reliability range from 'unreliable' to 'possibly reliable'.

"U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports" is rather specific. It's multiple people who are current U.S. officials who have the ability to read classified intelligence reports and are directly citing them for their information. The range of reliability is basically 'reliable' to 'super reliable' from that citation.

I cannot find the article now, but there was some WaPo/NYT bombshell that used something like '18 current and former us officials' as a anonymous citation. At that point, you can be sure the events described happened.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

In some reporting utilizing anonymous sources, there also are named sources. They may not talk about the direct claim being made, but will talk about a different claim that is related to the base claim. Some named sources, obviously, will also be cited to attempt to refute the claim. Sometimes quotes from interviews, statements, or other reporting is used. Always consider the potential biases of any named sources.

That's a general method of deciding if a story is believable or not. So, let's apply it to this story...

1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

This is an article by Politico, so it's generally believable so far.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

This is an initial report, and I'm not aware of any outlets reporting on it. So the 'generally believable' assessment stands.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

The bylines given are "By Elana Schor and Matthew Nussbaum". I'm not familiar with the names, so I'll google each one with 'biography' to see their history.

Prior to joining POLITICO as an oil and gas reporter, Schor covered politics for Environment & Energy Daily. She has more than a decade's worth of Hill reporting experience, writing on congressional politics for The Guardian, Talking Points Memo, and The Hill, and serving as the first editor of the infrastructure news site Streetsblog Capitol Hill.

Matthew Nussbaum is a White House reporter with POLITICO. He covered GOP vice presidential nominee Mike Pence on the 2016 campaign trail, and he previously covered the federal budget and appropriations process.

Schor seems to have a long career, so that's good. Nussbaum is a newer reporter, but I didn't find any negative reports of him via googling, so he's not unreliable.

So, I'll upgrade to 'pretty believable' due to Schor's decade-plus of reporting on Congressional matters.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The Politico article uses the following anonymous citation for the base claim: "according to a senior administration official"

That's an OK anonymous source. There pool of 'senior administration officials' is rather small. So, I neither upgrade or downgrade the assessment.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

This part is interesting. We have the following named sources and quoted figures: Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Oh.), Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), Tillerson, Huckabee-Sanders, State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert, Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), House Foreign Affairs Chairman Ed Royce (R-Calif.), House. Minority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.).

That's a lot of people. But, let's note, only one was directly talking to Politico about this report:

Ohio Sen. Sherrod Brown, who helped negotiate the sanctions package as the Banking Committee's top Democrat, told POLITICO he has heard the Trump administration is reaching out to House members ”to slow it, block it."

The others are based off unrelated interviews and statements.

In general, though, when considering the people making the statements, and their potential biases and reliabilities, they help prop up the claim. Even so, I'll still keep it as 'pretty reliable'.

In the end, when you consider all those aspects of the report, it's a 'pretty reliable' report that I believe. If other outlets either verify or falsify the reporting here, I'll appropriately consider the new reports and will change my views. But with what this report gives, I believe it. Most of the data I look at seems to point towards it being honest.

So, that's why I would say that not seeing a 'there' in this report is not a reasonable position -- you'd have to overlook a good amount of reasonably believable evidence presented.
 

Got

Banned
agreed. great breakdown and really should be required reading by any moron who dismisses valid reporting and sourcing. media literacy is in dire shape in this country and is a big reason why our country is in such dire straits.
 
agreed. great breakdown and really should be required reading by any moron who dismisses valid reporting and sourcing. media literacy is in dire shape in this country and is a big reason why our country is in such dire straits.

Yeah. This sort of stuff should be taught in schools.

Then again, I can somewhat understand it -- the use of anonymous sourcing so heavily is really only used in political reporting. But, as a civics tool, it is critical to understand how to judge the reliability of any reporting.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
This is like an addict saying let's go make a meth lab. So transparent.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Russia has only been an ally in an extreme of lesser of two evils. I wonder if Fox News is spinning this.
 
Damn, how much does it cost you to run that school bus?

I am fueled by every comment that says "nothing with happen" and "I'm not saying it isn't happening or won't happen, just more that I'm tired of the constant stream of click bait headlines."

Seeing so many uninformed comments make me angry, and I want to do my part to make it obvious that they add nothing to this era of civic discourse.
 
Good shit

As a prior rhetoric instructor, I approve of this post. These are the kinds of details that I try to teach in English 102 when talking about assessing the quality of sources. It's a poignant reminder that "reading" is a multi-faceted skill that you can't just top teaching in elementary school.

American schools would definitely benefit from civic education classes that introduce these issues from a young age and build on them as kids proceed through school.

Maybe if we could do that, we might not end up with Trump.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
I was being sarcastic there. Sorry that my opinion on this article ruffled so many feathers.



Again, you guys just want a fight. I'm not going to give it to you.

I didn't like the article as presented, end of story. Sheesh.

I do not believe you were being 'sarcastic'.

That's deflection.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
OK, if you're legitimately not buying the story, here's a primer on how I consider the believably of reporting based on unnamed sources.

I'll first note that the vast majority of all political reporting is based off anonymous sourcing. Of all the Trump scandal stories, I believe I've seen only two actual named sources:
  1. Comey's friend Benjamin Wittes, who revealed their conversations to the New York Times and other outlets. Wittes' reports are not based off any Comey memos, even though Trump's lawyer has attempted to insinuate they are. He also runs the Lawfare Blog.
  2. Dan Fried, a newly retired State Department official who was the Coordinator for Sanctions Policy. He's talked about administration attempts to remove Russian sanctions.

So, how do I decide if a story is believable or not? Here's the basic process I follow:


1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

No outlet has been 100% correct. You cannot throw out all of the New York Times' reporting just because they got one or two stories wrong. Referencing a single incorrect story from an outlet is not a refutation of any future reporting from that outlet.

So, NYT/WaPo are rather sterling in this regard. NBC/CBS news are rather high as well. Politico/The Hill have also been pretty reliable. CNN perhaps a bit lower, but they've been rather good lately. Fox News is basically unreliable, unless they are verifying another outlet's reporting.

'Twitter' does not count as an outlet. If you see a reporter on Twitter, look at their employer and their track record.

Here I'll mention 'The Intercept' is basically unreliable. The only thing I needed to know to discount them is to see how horribly they handled the anonymously sourced reporting they received. They might as well have changed their website address to www.throw-reality-winner-in-prison.com with their handling of that situation. We've known about printer tracking dots for over a decade at this point; it was completely irresponsible to publish straight scans the of the documents they were given.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

If other outlets independently confirm the reporting, that makes it more believable.

As an example, on Trump's birthday, the Washington Post reported he is under investigation for obstruction of justice.

On Thursday, NBC News independently verified the information and reported on it.

Be careful here to not conflate instances where another outlet independently verifies a claim, and instances where another outlet reports on the original reporting:

(emphasis added)

In this case, NYT is reporting on WaPo's original reporting. That's not an independent verification, and it does not increase or decrease the believably of the claim. Actually, if you look closer at the article, the byline is 'By REUTERS'. So it's actually NYT publishing Reuters' reporting on WaPo's original reporting.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

This is a bit harder, but at this point we've seen enough bylines containing names like David Fahrenthold and Maggie Haberman to start recognizing the names. Some outlets don't use bylines, but it's rare.

Since we're talking individuals now, I'll mention that Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept is considered unreliable. Even ignoring his track record pre-Reality Winner, that incident should make it clear to not trust his reporting without independent verification. Also, Louise Mensch and Claude Taylor on Twitter are basically loons.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The actual citation of anonymous sources is important. There is a difference between "a source familiar with the matter" and "U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports".

While in both cases, we don't know who the anonymous sources are, we have a way to validate or falsify the reporting if the sources are ever publicly revealed.

When anonymous sources are cited by a reporter, both the reporter and the source agree on the actual citation. The reporter likely wants the more specific citation, and the source the least specific. They compromise, and agree on the actual text of the citation.

Always think about who the citation could reasonably apply to.

In the case of the Kushner stories linked above, "a source familiar with the matter" could be Kushner himself, or a Russian spy, or Kushner's tennis partner who talked to him about it. The possible levels of source reliability range from 'unreliable' to 'possibly reliable'.

"U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports" is rather specific. It's multiple people who are current U.S. officials who have the ability to read classified intelligence reports and are directly citing them for their information. The range of reliability is basically 'reliable' to 'super reliable' from that citation.

I cannot find the article now, but there was some WaPo/NYT bombshell that used something like '18 current and former us officials' as a anonymous citation. At that point, you can be sure the events described happened.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

In some reporting utilizing anonymous sources, there also are named sources. They may not talk about the direct claim being made, but will talk about a different claim that is related to the base claim. Some named sources, obviously, will also be cited to attempt to refute the claim. Sometimes quotes from interviews, statements, or other reporting is used. Always consider the potential biases of any named sources.

That's a general method of deciding if a story is believable or not. So, let's apply it to this story...

1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

This is an article by Politico, so it's generally believable so far.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

This is an initial report, and I'm not aware of any outlets reporting on it. So the 'generally believable' assessment stands.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

The bylines given are "By Elana Schor and Matthew Nussbaum". I'm not familiar with the names, so I'll google each one with 'biography' to see their history.





Schor seems to have a long career, so that's good. Nussbaum is a newer reporter, but I didn't find any negative reports of him via googling, so he's not unreliable.

So, I'll upgrade to 'pretty believable' due to Schor's decade-plus of reporting on Congressional matters.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The Politico article uses the following anonymous citation for the base claim: "according to a senior administration official"

That's an OK anonymous source. There pool of 'senior administration officials' is rather small. So, I neither upgrade or downgrade the assessment.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

This part is interesting. We have the following named sources and quoted figures: Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Oh.), Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), Tillerson, Huckabee-Sanders, State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert, Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), House Foreign Affairs Chairman Ed Royce (R-Calif.), House. Minority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.).

That's a lot of people. But, let's note, only one was directly talking to Politico about this report:



The others are based off unrelated interviews and statements.

In general, though, when considering the people making the statements, and their potential biases and reliabilities, they help prop up the claim. Even so, I'll still keep it as 'pretty reliable'.

In the end, when you consider all those aspects of the report, it's a 'pretty reliable' report that I believe. If other outlets either verify or falsify the reporting here, I'll appropriately consider the new reports and will change my views. But with what this report gives, I believe it. Most of the data I look at seems to point towards it being honest.

So, that's why I would say that not seeing a 'there' in this report is not a reasonable position -- you'd have to overlook a good amount of reasonably believable evidence presented.

This is a fantastic breakdown. Thank you for sharing this.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
They cry that the Russia thing is fake over and over and then they go and try to do this publicly. It's hilarious
 

Kilau

Member
OK, if you're legitimately not buying the story, here's a primer on how I consider the believably of reporting based on unnamed sources.

While I don't really think all that applies to what my issue was with the article I admit I didn't get my point across at all, thanks for the post.

agreed. great breakdown and really should be required reading by any moron who dismisses valid reporting and sourcing. media literacy is in dire shape in this country and is a big reason why our country is in such dire straits.

Totally not necessary.

I do not believe you were being 'sarcastic'.

That's deflection.

Yeah, I don't care what you believe.
 

Boylamite

Member
I was being sarcastic there. Sorry that my opinion on this article ruffled so many feathers.



Again, you guys just want a fight. I'm not going to give it to you.

I didn't like the article as presented, end of story. Sheesh.

So you can't defend your assertion. It's a feels>reals situation. Got it.
 

Parshias7

Member
Donald Trump is so stupid he does not realize that lifting the sanctions on Russia while his campaign is being investigated for colluding with Russia is a bad look.

Regardless of whether or not Senate Republicans believe the administration is in bed with Russia, they overwhelmingly voted on this bill at the very least to stop Trump from embarrassing himself.

Now it is House Republicans' turn. There is literally no downside to them for passing this bill. Go ahead and show us you're not completely brain dead.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Every single time Trump is in front of the press, he should be asked whether or not he believes Russia interfered with our election. Keep the pressure on with him committing to hypocrisy or incompetence.
 

Got

Banned
While I don't really think all that applies to what my issue was with the article I admit I didn't get my point across at all, thanks for the post.



Totally not necessary.



Yeah, I don't care what you believe.

you're only a moron if you dismiss valid reporting and sourcing. you said you were being sarcastic so I think you're safe.
 
I'll be interested to see how Paul Ryan handles this mess. All 194 (when Jimmy Gomez finally arrives) or 195 (if Ossoff wins, cross your fingers) Democrats will vote for the sanctions, so the bill only needs 23 or 24 Republican votes to pass. A smart Speaker would allow Republicans in vulnerable districts to vote for the bill, too. It passes, the moderates get political cover, and the hardliners can continue to be assholes.

But I wouldn't describe Ryan as a smart Speaker.
 
As a follow up to the previous discussion, there is this opinion piece on foxnews.com: "Democrat (and ex-CIA): Bogus leaks and what to believe. How to vet your news like an agent"

As you would image, I like the general thesis -- but I want to show how actual media bias works here. First, let's look at the title: "Democrat (and ex-CIA): Bogus leaks and what to believe. How to vet your news like an agent"

I see a few red flags here:

1. Given the undeniable Republican bias of Fox News, the use of 'Democrat (and ex-CIA)' is both an appeal to authority (CIA), and some weird reverse appeal to authority. They are basically saying 'You should believe this guy because he's ex-CIA, but also he's extra-right because he normally is wrong (Democrat)!'

2. 'Bogus Leaks' is an obviously biased language. If the article is about trying to honestly attempt to determine the believably of leak-based reporting, why are you immediately stereotyping leaks as 'bogus'?

3. 'How to vet your news like an agent' -- While is it an interesting idea to explain how CIA agents examine unreliable information, for me it now brings up the question "Should I be 'vetting' news like an agent?" This seems like an obvious attempt to introduce a higher standard for 'believing' reporting than the normal method I described before. 'Vetting' is about being as near 100% in certainty about a subject. In political news reporting, you rarely can get near 100% certainty. As a reader, I think it's about determining the relative level of believably of claims, and not getting to a magical certainty. If we can throw out all reporting that is not 100% certain, we basically have no political reporting at all.

Now onto selected parts of the opinion piece:

Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's warning about anonymous media reports rightfully calls our attention to a growing crisis: Americans are being overwhelmed by a waterfall of highly questionable leaks about the drama in Washington, D.C.

I'm not going to point out all the obvious biased phrasing used throughout the piece, or we'll be here all day...

Some of the gossip is fairly predictable, like the jockeying of power between White House staffers or dueling Congressmen.

This is an attempt to sow doubt in reader's minds. While it is true that those are motives of some anonymous sources, this is discounting the idea that anonymous sources could be acting from a sense of patriotism or justice in revealing information. But still, it's a fair point to bring up. Readers should keep this idea in mind.

First, spies conducted the equivalent of a background check on the volunteer. Can we confirm their job, title, and related work functions? Can they prove their identity?

Unfortunately, the American people have no way to determine if any of the media's anonymous sources have undergone this basic check. Instead, we have to rely on the integrity of reporters.

Hint: 'integrity of reporters' is where the stereotypical Fox News reader laughs, as reporters do not have integrity in their minds.

Next, spies worked to confirm a volunteer's access to the information they're providing. Do they have reason to have it? Is their access direct (personal) or indirect (through others)? If they're using subsources, these unnamed figures have to be vetted as well.

Frustratingly, the American people have no window into whether the media has addressed this critical step and, if so, to what degree of professionalism.

Again, do you trust these 'journalists'?

Spies have to understand why a volunteer is offering their information. If someone is bitter about a job loss, for instance, they might pass along falsehoods or ”cherry pick" intelligence in order to get revenge against a boss.

Indeed, most volunteers are motivated by one of four things: revenge, ego, money, or partisanship. For example, NSA's most recent leaker R. Leigh Winner fits the pattern of partisanship while former FBI Director James Comey's leak may be explained – in part – by revenge.

I have no idea where the claim of partisanship for Reality Winner comes from. Was she a secret DNC staffer or something?

As to Comey, he directly goes to the thought of him being motivated by revenge. I would argue that it makes more sense that he was motivated by a sense of honor and justice. I mean, he worked for the Justice Department for decades, but that's just me...

Of course, just because volunteers have dubious motivations doesn't mean we ignore their information. Rather, the media must highlight a source's likely bias so that viewers and readers might draw their own conclusions.

Sadly, no media outlets have publically taken these steps in recent months.

How can an outlet highlight an anonymous source's biases without revealing the source? That just makes no sense...

Corroboration: In the world of espionage, a volunteer's claims have to be checked against 1) other sources that 2) don't know of each other's actions yet 3) share the same information. Relying on single-sourced intelligence is dangerous. That's largely what drove the disastrous invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Here again, the media has yet to demonstrate that they've corroborated any of the information they've published. Of course, they've promised that they've done so but there's simply no proof. Instead, we have to rely on the honesty and integrity of journalists.

Remember that time Fox News tried to counter stories of a Kushner/Russia back channel using a single anonymous source?

Also, WTF on the single-source Iraq invasion claim? I'm not even bothering to try and figure that one out...

"the media has yet to demonstrate that they've corroborated any of the information they've published" -- They have. You see citations such as "multiple sources", and you see multiple outlets independently verify claims.

This whole piece is attempting to set up a binary belief system for anonymously-sourced claims. Either you 100% believe the claim, or not. That's now how you responsibly read political reporting. By setting up this high bar for belief, the writer wants you basically believe nothing -- as nearly all political reporting fails to hit 100% certainty in their claims.

"Instead, we have to rely on the honesty and integrity of journalists." -- Insert caricature of evil reporters here.

Turn on any TV station or read any article and you're bound to consume not just facts but also the political agendas of media owners and editors. For instance, data show that The New York Times and Washington Post have a greater bias than Fox News.

They link to the 'data'. Here's the relevant quote from the WaPo article linked:

We found that all of the media outlets that we considered ”liberal" treated Clinton more favorably. The more conservative outlets seemed more on the fence about Trump. In our sample of articles, only the coverage of Fox News was more positive toward Trump than Clinton, at least to a statistically significant degree. Coverage at Weekly Standard, Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune didn't clearly favor one candidate or the other.

It's so amazingly blatant how the author is purposely conflating the original claim that Fox News was pro-Trump as a claim that Fox News is less biased.

Or consider the 2016 election where journalists directed 96 percent of their political giving to my party's nominee – Hillary Clinton.

BIASED JOURNALISTS!!!!

Rosenstein is right. Exercise caution when reading stories with anonymous sources and leaked information. Unless the media identifies a source and is honest about their motivations and biases, subsequent reporting is the equivalent of cheap celebrity gossip.

This is a completely bullshit standard to hold political reporting to. It's not a binary believe/disbelieve choice.
 
While I don't really think all that applies to what my issue was with the article I admit I didn't get my point across at all, thanks for the post.

Could you restate your point then? I thought we were talking about whether or not you believe the reporting at issue? That sure seemed to be what you meant by not seeing a 'there' there...

Mind if I link that constantly, Jurgenson?

Please do, and let me know if any formatting/content changes can make it better.
 

androvsky

Member
While I don't really think all that applies to what my issue was with the article I admit I didn't get my point across at all, thanks for the post.

I got curious after that fantastic post about anonymous sources, so I followed the chain back. I take it you don't feel the body of the story supports the summary? If I'm following everything correctly, I don't think the opening paragraph is the summary, it's the story. With news stories, you lose readers with every sentence, so it's not uncommon for the very first sentence to be the meat of the story with all the context following it.

The entire story is a senior administration official says they're going to work with the House to weaken ("admin-friendly changes", uh-huh) the sanctions bill, the rest of the article is getting reactions to it.
 
Now it is House Republicans' turn. There is literally no downside to them for passing this bill. Go ahead and show us you're not completely brain dead.

im sure a bunch of them have investments to/from Russia. Nunes and Gianforte have come up but I'm sure there are more.
 

Got

Banned
I got curious after that fantastic post about anonymous sources, so I followed the chain back. I take it you don't feel the body of the story supports the summary? If I'm following everything correctly, I don't think the opening paragraph is the summary, it's the story. With news stories, you lose readers with every sentence, so it's not uncommon for the very first sentence to be the meat of the story with all the context following it.

The entire story is a senior administration official says they're going to work with the House to weaken ("admin-friendly changes", uh-huh) the sanctions bill, the rest of the article is getting reactions to it.

for anyone who needs clarity,

welcome to the Nut Graf
 
This BDSM public humiliation play Vlad and Donny are doing has really gone a little too far, hasn't it? Did Trump forget the safe word?
 
Germany & Austria don't want these sanctions either, hurts their businesses too.

GG American influence

I feel read bad for German and Austrian businesses. It really sucks that the Americans are punishing Russia for illegally invading sovereign nations and attacking democratic elections.

But businesses are more important, right?
 

Abounder

Banned
I feel read bad for German and Austrian businesses. It really sucks that the Americans are punishing Russia for illegally invading sovereign nations and attacking democratic elections.

But businesses are more important, right?

Bingo. That's why you focus more on the elite than the average joe's paycheck, and explains why Merkel/etc aren't exactly thrilled with this 'peculiar move'. American politics drags too many people down with it, don't play into the Russians hands by worsening EU relations
 

antonz

Member
Germany & Austria don't want these sanctions either, hurts their businesses too.

GG American influence

Might have something to do with the fact the last German Chancellor after leaving office got a very nice high paying job by the Russian Government on Russia's own self interest driven push to tie Europe even more to Russian Oil and Gas.

It is in Europe's best interest to slow down and even cut off their reliance on Russian Oil and Gas. All Russia does is use it as a weapon and threaten to cut off supplies etc. when things get heated.
 

Abounder

Banned
Might have something to do with the fact the last German Chancellor after leaving office got a very nice high paying job by the Russian Government on Russia's own self interest driven push to tie Europe even more to Russian Oil and Gas.

It is in Europe's best interest to slow down and even cut off their reliance on Russian Oil and Gas. All Russia does is use it as a weapon and threaten to cut off supplies etc. when things get heated.

Best served working in a joint effort than worsening our alliances with more half-assed foreign policy (this is like the SA 9/11 bill on steroids), especially when it affects their backyard. But is definitely in EU's interest to be more independent, Merkel/etc can't rely on US execs/legislature or RUS energy
 

Tovarisc

Member
Might have something to do with the fact the last German Chancellor after leaving office got a very nice high paying job by the Russian Government on Russia's own self interest driven push to tie Europe even more to Russian Oil and Gas.

It is in Europe's best interest to slow down and even cut off their reliance on Russian Oil and Gas. All Russia does is use it as a weapon and threaten to cut off supplies etc. when things get heated.

In Finland sanctions hit our economy as things like food and timber trade got basically fully blocked. It caused a lot waves here when they first got hit. Not sure if said industries never bounced back to pre-sanctions levels as rest of EU isn't big on buying those things from us to make up for lost revenue.
 
I meant too stringent with respect to what would typically be implemented in situations like this, wherein negotiation and diplomacy by the Executive branch typically works hand in hand with legislative solutions.

It's warranted in this case, given we don't know what Trump's Russia ties are and therefore can't trust him, but I think Tillerson is basically correct that this will hamstring him in a way that will make his job much harder.

Tillerson has no actual power, though. Not only is the state department critically understaffed, he clearly has no actual pull in regards to policy. His job difficulty is kind of irrelevant here.
 
Bingo. That's why you focus more on the elite than the average joe's paycheck, and explains why Merkel/etc aren't exactly thrilled with this 'peculiar move'. American politics drags too many people down with it, don't play into the Russians hands by worsening EU relations

Here's an article talking about the statement you mentioned.

It seems the primary point of contention is the new sanctions that would affect the Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany.

It seems that the Europeans are not solidly behind it:
The president of the European Council Donald Tusk has said that Nord Stream 2 is not in the EU's interests.[149] Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán have questioned the different treatment of Nord Stream II and South Stream projects.[149][150] The project is considered to violate the long-term declared strategy of the EU to diversify its gas supplies.[151] A letter, signed by the leaders of nine EU countries, has been sent to the EC in March 2016, warning that the Nord Stream 2 project contradicts the European energy policy requirements that suppliers to the EU should not control the energy transmission assets, and that access to the energy infrastructure must be secured for non-consortium companies.[152][153]

So, your point is that the US should ignore the blatant attack on it's democratic elections so that Germans can pay less for their natural gas?

The German price for natural gas is currently 1/3 of the peak price in 2008. The price is at a general low point not seen since 2005. The price has risen from $4/BTU to $5/BTU since October, a 20% rise. (Source)

Please, let me know how much more the Germans and Austrians want to save on their heating bills in exchange for the death of free and fair elections in America.
 

Lautaro

Member
There's probably too much money at stake in sanctions and/or too heavy kompromat to care about optics. More reason for congress to make efective sanctions IMO.
 

Abounder

Banned
Here's an article talking about the statement you mentioned.

It seems the primary point of contention is the new sanctions that would affect the Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany.

It seems that the Europeans are not solidly behind it:


So, your point is that the US should ignore the blatant attack on it's democratic elections so that Germans can pay less for their natural gas?

The German price for natural gas is currently 1/3 of the peak price in 2008. The price is at a general low point not seen since 2005. The price has risen from $4/BTU to $5/BTU since October, a 20% rise. (Source)

Please, let me know how much more the Germans and Austrians want to save on their heating bills in exchange for the death of free and fair elections in America.

Good question about putting a price on foreign relationships, and these illegal sanctions would at least piss off eastern EU, France, Germany, and the Dutch. Need to work united and provide proof better than the Iraq War rather than play into Russia's hands by hurting our allies in the process. But easier said than done with the birther in chief and the godawful senate, not to mention economics of it all
 
It's also worth pointing it out that the US isn't the only country they got involved in.

also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism
 
also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism

Russia(USSR) was meddling in the US long before Putin came around.

It's just so much easier to do now with the Internet and social media.
 

Demoskinos

Member
You think after all these investigations into ties to Russia ect they would want to stay visibly as far away from Russia as possible.
 
Good question about putting a price on foreign relationships, and these illegal sanctions would at least piss off eastern EU, France, Germany, and the Dutch. Need to work united and provide proof better than the Iraq War rather than play into Russia's hands by hurting our allies in the process. But easier said than done with the birther in chief and the godawful senate, not to mention economics of it all

What the hell are 'illegal sanctions'?

"Need to work united and provide proof better than the Iraq War rather than play into Russia's hands by hurting our allies in the process. "

Now you're just not making any sense.

'Hurting our allies'? In what way, making their nearly 10-year-low natural gas prices not much lower?

It should be noted, that the sanctions against Russia since the annexation of Crimea have worked:

Tata said, "The sanctions that we put on (Russia) for the Crimea annexation and meddling in Ukraine ... have absolutely crushed the ruble by 50 percent. And GDP from 2014 to 2016 is 50 percent down in Russia, as well."

Russia’s ruble fell more than 50 percent in the year following the start of sanctions in 2014, but it started to regain value in 2016. There are no GDP figures yet for Russia in 2016, but from 2014 to 2015, it fell by about 35 percent.

It seems a drop in oil prices are the main driver of Russia’s problems. But sanctions play at least some role — though it’s hard to evaluate exactly how much given the country’s oil crisis.

Tata is right that Russia’s economy has struggled in recent years, though his numbers are a little off. More critically, sanctions are only part of the reason for Russia's economic troubles. We rate his statement Half True.
(Source)
 
Top Bottom