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White House plans to push House GOP for friendlier Russia sanctions deal

also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism

Russias move from communism to autocracy was going to happen no matter what. The Russian people spent their lives leaving everything to the state the moment privatization was a thing the wolves moved in, and putin was the alpha wolf.
Then USA was a minor influence in all of it. Russia only has itself to blame.
 

Game Guru

Member
Good question about putting a price on foreign relationships, and these illegal sanctions would at least piss off eastern EU, France, Germany, and the Dutch. Need to work united and provide proof better than the Iraq War rather than play into Russia's hands by hurting our allies in the process. But easier said than done with the birther in chief and the godawful senate, not to mention economics of it all

Guess what! The U.S. can't do that because Russia may have helped ensure that a pro-Russia, anti-EU U.S. President got elected and foreign relations are the purview of the President and the Executive Branch that the President controls! Funny that Congress, the Legislative Branch, has to step in to limit the U.S. President's power in regards to Russia!
 

lazygecko

Member
Russias move from communism to autocracy was going to happen no matter what. The Russian people spent their lives leaving everything to the state the moment privatization was a thing the wolves moved in, and putin was the alpha wolf.
Then USA was a minor influence in all of it. Russia only has itself to blame.

I think it's difficult to say how things might have turned out really. The catalyst was the "shock treatment" approach of overnight mass privatization making the 90's utterly chaotic for Russia until things "stabilized" into the current status quo. Had they gone through a much more gradual, Chinese-style reformation a lot of unfortunate events might have been mitgated.

But then, that was pretty much what Gorbachev was doing in the first place, but the decades of unsustainable economic policies from prior Soviet rule had built up to a crisis point during his leadership, thus he and his legacy is not looked upon fondly by the Russian people.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Yeah, I don't care what you believe.

SJurgenson put in a considerable amount of effort into explaining things for you, and thus far you have ignored him.

Of course, the one other possibility, is you are just here to complain and not discuss.

No

While I don't really think all that applies to what my issue was with the article I admit I didn't get my point across at all, thanks for the post.

Does not count.

You said:
Well I guess you are right, when I read something attributed to an unnamed source my eyes just glaze over.

---

also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism

Can you go a single thread without using Whataboutisms?
We know by now you like Russia.
 

robochimp

Member
also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism

We're pinning neoliberalism on Bill Clinton now? It's been the driving force of the US government regardless of party long before Clinton became president.
 

Crocodile

Member
OK, if you're legitimately not buying the story, here's a primer on how I consider the believably of reporting based on unnamed sources.

I'll first note that the vast majority of all political reporting is based off anonymous sourcing. Of all the Trump scandal stories, I believe I've seen only two actual named sources:
  1. Comey's friend Benjamin Wittes, who revealed their conversations to the New York Times and other outlets. Wittes' reports are not based off any Comey memos, even though Trump's lawyer has attempted to insinuate they are. He also runs the Lawfare Blog.
  2. Dan Fried, a newly retired State Department official who was the Coordinator for Sanctions Policy. He's talked about administration attempts to remove Russian sanctions.

So, how do I decide if a story is believable or not? Here's the basic process I follow:


1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

No outlet has been 100% correct. You cannot throw out all of the New York Times' reporting just because they got one or two stories wrong. Referencing a single incorrect story from an outlet is not a refutation of any future reporting from that outlet.

So, NYT/WaPo are rather sterling in this regard. NBC/CBS news are rather high as well. Politico/The Hill have also been pretty reliable. CNN perhaps a bit lower, but they've been rather good lately. Fox News is basically unreliable, unless they are verifying another outlet's reporting.

'Twitter' does not count as an outlet. If you see a reporter on Twitter, look at their employer and their track record.

Here I'll mention 'The Intercept' is basically unreliable. The only thing I needed to know to discount them is to see how horribly they handled the anonymously sourced reporting they received. They might as well have changed their website address to www.throw-reality-winner-in-prison.com with their handling of that situation. We've known about printer tracking dots for over a decade at this point; it was completely irresponsible to publish straight scans the of the documents they were given.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

If other outlets independently confirm the reporting, that makes it more believable.

As an example, on Trump's birthday, the Washington Post reported he is under investigation for obstruction of justice.

On Thursday, NBC News independently verified the information and reported on it.

Be careful here to not conflate instances where another outlet independently verifies a claim, and instances where another outlet reports on the original reporting:

(emphasis added)

In this case, NYT is reporting on WaPo's original reporting. That's not an independent verification, and it does not increase or decrease the believably of the claim. Actually, if you look closer at the article, the byline is 'By REUTERS'. So it's actually NYT publishing Reuters' reporting on WaPo's original reporting.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

This is a bit harder, but at this point we've seen enough bylines containing names like David Fahrenthold and Maggie Haberman to start recognizing the names. Some outlets don't use bylines, but it's rare.

Since we're talking individuals now, I'll mention that Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept is considered unreliable. Even ignoring his track record pre-Reality Winner, that incident should make it clear to not trust his reporting without independent verification. Also, Louise Mensch and Claude Taylor on Twitter are basically loons.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The actual citation of anonymous sources is important. There is a difference between "a source familiar with the matter" and "U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports".

While in both cases, we don't know who the anonymous sources are, we have a way to validate or falsify the reporting if the sources are ever publicly revealed.

When anonymous sources are cited by a reporter, both the reporter and the source agree on the actual citation. The reporter likely wants the more specific citation, and the source the least specific. They compromise, and agree on the actual text of the citation.

Always think about who the citation could reasonably apply to.

In the case of the Kushner stories linked above, "a source familiar with the matter" could be Kushner himself, or a Russian spy, or Kushner's tennis partner who talked to him about it. The possible levels of source reliability range from 'unreliable' to 'possibly reliable'.

"U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports" is rather specific. It's multiple people who are current U.S. officials who have the ability to read classified intelligence reports and are directly citing them for their information. The range of reliability is basically 'reliable' to 'super reliable' from that citation.

I cannot find the article now, but there was some WaPo/NYT bombshell that used something like '18 current and former us officials' as a anonymous citation. At that point, you can be sure the events described happened.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

In some reporting utilizing anonymous sources, there also are named sources. They may not talk about the direct claim being made, but will talk about a different claim that is related to the base claim. Some named sources, obviously, will also be cited to attempt to refute the claim. Sometimes quotes from interviews, statements, or other reporting is used. Always consider the potential biases of any named sources.

That's a general method of deciding if a story is believable or not. So, let's apply it to this story...

1. Is the outlet credible, and does it have a history of being correct or incorrect?

This is an article by Politico, so it's generally believable so far.

2. Have other reliable outlets independently confirmed the reporting? Have any reliable outlets refuted it?

This is an initial report, and I'm not aware of any outlets reporting on it. So the 'generally believable' assessment stands.

3. Are the reporters/writers themselves considered reliable? Have they have a positive or negative track record?

The bylines given are "By Elana Schor and Matthew Nussbaum". I'm not familiar with the names, so I'll google each one with 'biography' to see their history.





Schor seems to have a long career, so that's good. Nussbaum is a newer reporter, but I didn't find any negative reports of him via googling, so he's not unreliable.

So, I'll upgrade to 'pretty believable' due to Schor's decade-plus of reporting on Congressional matters.

4. Who are the anonymous sources?

The Politico article uses the following anonymous citation for the base claim: "according to a senior administration official"

That's an OK anonymous source. There pool of 'senior administration officials' is rather small. So, I neither upgrade or downgrade the assessment.

5. Who are the named sources or quoted references?

This part is interesting. We have the following named sources and quoted figures: Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Oh.), Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), Tillerson, Huckabee-Sanders, State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert, Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), House Foreign Affairs Chairman Ed Royce (R-Calif.), House. Minority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.).

That's a lot of people. But, let's note, only one was directly talking to Politico about this report:



The others are based off unrelated interviews and statements.

In general, though, when considering the people making the statements, and their potential biases and reliabilities, they help prop up the claim. Even so, I'll still keep it as 'pretty reliable'.

In the end, when you consider all those aspects of the report, it's a 'pretty reliable' report that I believe. If other outlets either verify or falsify the reporting here, I'll appropriately consider the new reports and will change my views. But with what this report gives, I believe it. Most of the data I look at seems to point towards it being honest.

So, that's why I would say that not seeing a 'there' in this report is not a reasonable position -- you'd have to overlook a good amount of reasonably believable evidence presented.

As a follow up to the previous discussion, there is this opinion piece on foxnews.com: "Democrat (and ex-CIA): Bogus leaks and what to believe. How to vet your news like an agent"

As you would image, I like the general thesis -- but I want to show how actual media bias works here. First, let's look at the title: "Democrat (and ex-CIA): Bogus leaks and what to believe. How to vet your news like an agent"

I see a few red flags here:

1. Given the undeniable Republican bias of Fox News, the use of 'Democrat (and ex-CIA)' is both an appeal to authority (CIA), and some weird reverse appeal to authority. They are basically saying 'You should believe this guy because he's ex-CIA, but also he's extra-right because he normally is wrong (Democrat)!'

2. 'Bogus Leaks' is an obviously biased language. If the article is about trying to honestly attempt to determine the believably of leak-based reporting, why are you immediately stereotyping leaks as 'bogus'?

3. 'How to vet your news like an agent' -- While is it an interesting idea to explain how CIA agents examine unreliable information, for me it now brings up the question "Should I be 'vetting' news like an agent?" This seems like an obvious attempt to introduce a higher standard for 'believing' reporting than the normal method I described before. 'Vetting' is about being as near 100% in certainty about a subject. In political news reporting, you rarely can get near 100% certainty. As a reader, I think it's about determining the relative level of believably of claims, and not getting to a magical certainty. If we can throw out all reporting that is not 100% certain, we basically have no political reporting at all.

Now onto selected parts of the opinion piece:



I'm not going to point out all the obvious biased phrasing used throughout the piece, or we'll be here all day...



This is an attempt to sow doubt in reader's minds. While it is true that those are motives of some anonymous sources, this is discounting the idea that anonymous sources could be acting from a sense of patriotism or justice in revealing information. But still, it's a fair point to bring up. Readers should keep this idea in mind.



Hint: 'integrity of reporters' is where the stereotypical Fox News reader laughs, as reporters do not have integrity in their minds.



Again, do you trust these 'journalists'?



I have no idea where the claim of partisanship for Reality Winner comes from. Was she a secret DNC staffer or something?

As to Comey, he directly goes to the thought of him being motivated by revenge. I would argue that it makes more sense that he was motivated by a sense of honor and justice. I mean, he worked for the Justice Department for decades, but that's just me...



How can an outlet highlight an anonymous source's biases without revealing the source? That just makes no sense...



Remember that time Fox News tried to counter stories of a Kushner/Russia back channel using a single anonymous source?

Also, WTF on the single-source Iraq invasion claim? I'm not even bothering to try and figure that one out...

"the media has yet to demonstrate that they’ve corroborated any of the information they’ve published" -- They have. You see citations such as "multiple sources", and you see multiple outlets independently verify claims.

This whole piece is attempting to set up a binary belief system for anonymously-sourced claims. Either you 100% believe the claim, or not. That's now how you responsibly read political reporting. By setting up this high bar for belief, the writer wants you basically believe nothing -- as nearly all political reporting fails to hit 100% certainty in their claims.

"Instead, we have to rely on the honesty and integrity of journalists." -- Insert caricature of evil reporters here.



They link to the 'data'. Here's the relevant quote from the WaPo article linked:



It's so amazingly blatant how the author is purposely conflating the original claim that Fox News was pro-Trump as a claim that Fox News is less biased.



BIASED JOURNALISTS!!!!



This is a completely bullshit standard to hold political reporting to. It's not a binary believe/disbelieve choice.

These are very good posts about how to analyze and consume media. Others should 100% read them. Job well done :)
 

Abounder

Banned
What the hell are 'illegal sanctions'?

"Need to work united and provide proof better than the Iraq War rather than play into Russia's hands by hurting our allies in the process. "

Now you're just not making any sense.

'Hurting our allies'? In what way, making their nearly 10-year-low natural gas prices not much lower?

It should be noted, that the sanctions against Russia since the annexation of Crimea have worked:

(Source)

Its the hell being raised from allies where they consider this shit to be “illegal extraterritorial sanctions against European companies that participate in the development of European energy supply”.
EDIT: As for previous successful sanctions, those were actually coordinated between EU/US beforehand unlike this surprise.

Guess what! The U.S. can't do that because Russia may have helped ensure that a pro-Russia, anti-EU U.S. President got elected and foreign relations are the purview of the President and the Executive Branch that the President controls! Funny that Congress, the Legislative Branch, has to step in to limit the U.S. President's power in regards to Russia!

Word. US/EU needs to be coordinated more than ever but godspeed with that, instead they'll be more independent and unreliable
 
These are very good posts about how to analyze and consume media. Others should 100% read them. Job well done :)

Thanks. I wanted to provide a couple of resources that can be pointed towards for anyone spouting the 'fake news' dismissal of any stories in the future.

That, and I find it kind of fun.
 
also worth pointing out the US meddling in Russia w Boris Yeltsin directly led to the rise of oligarchs and capitalist corruption that eventually paved the way for Putin to campaign against so ironically both Trump and Putin are the fault of Clinton neoliberal imperialism

Sometimes I chance upon wrongheaded nonsense like this and wonder to myself what unholy miasma of confusions could have progenated such a perceived universe so different from the one we actually live in.

After the dissolution of the Soviet government, there was the matter of privatizing all of the state owned commodities and industries in order to transition the economy from a command economy to something market based. Initially British and US interests were interested in carving up Russian resources, as any empire is wont to do after the defeat of its enemy, but the coup d'etat attempt and absolute chaos in Russia scared off foreign investors almost entirely because the country was unstable and the resources would have been too expensive to manage. So when Yeltsin lifts the price controls and tries to shock the country into capitalism, it fails pretty miserably because no one has money and foreign capital is not filling the country like he had hoped.

Fast forward a few years. Industries are not being managed. The government is bleeding money. The economy is blustering. So that's when they decide to auction off government assets at extraordinarily low prices because they're desperate to get it into the hands of the private market. But political insiders who are responsible for holding the auctions became the gatekeepers for access to economic rights and resources. Becoming a player in the economy at all meant personally enriching the people who were ostensibly the owners of those resources (because they held the keys). That meant that a lot of wealth went to friends, family, allies, and sometimes just right back to the person who signed off on these auctions (because they were given stock).

It's amazing to me that you mentioned Putin as campaigning against this. First off, Putin didn't campaign at all in 2000. At all. You're speaking as if he became a populist reformer that won the heart of the Cossack empire by promising to undo Yeltsin's horrible damage to the integrity of the country but Putin gave no speeches, held no rallies, gave no interviews, etc. He was Prime Minister in 1999 because Yeltsin resigned under scandal and won the election in 2000 by rigging it because he was already in control of the government and everyone had been loyal to him. Putin gained extreme popularity because the economy boomed after his election and because he bravely killed thousands of innocent muslims in Chechnya after making them the scapegoats for apartment bombings that he was probably responsible for.

I mentioned that the government was extremely loyal to Putin. This is because Putin had already mastered the economic corruption I detailed earlier while he was in charge of administrating foreign investment and business operating licenses in St. Petersburg from 1991 to 1996. He brought that same mentality to Moscow in 96 and quickly moved upward because 1) he had demonstrated extreme loyalty to mayor Sobchak in St. Petersburg and 2) he made sure that whenever he moved upward, the people that filled in below him were loyal or personally indebted to him.

But some corruption does not an oligarchy make. You forget that the second most important ingredient in creating the mafia state that we now know as Russia was extreme levels of violence in the 90s. The best example of this is the aluminum wars. Aluminum was an extremely valuable commodity that was already under the control of corrupt businessmen. But greed is insatiable and these men killed each other for years. Political assassinations, street violence. People were dying every day, but it's still hardly documented. Sometimes you read biographies of rich Russian oligarchs like Oleg Deripaska and read lines like "He went from being a poor laborer to getting his first share in a refinery in 199_. The details of how he obtained this stock are unclear." What that actually means is that he killed someone, or threatened someone, or made unsavory deals. You read the same things in Putin's biographies and everyone else's biography. There was a vast criminal underground that not only made deals with the government but in fact is the functioning government of Russia.

So, no, Clinton had nothing to do with this. It is all Russia's fault. I don't know how you came to that conclusion at all but it's probably from some straight up propaganda or leftist revisionism where the reigning attitude is still "the Soviets were not so bad compared to US imperialism."
 

Got

Banned
Sometimes I chance upon wrongheaded nonsense like this and wonder to myself what unholy miasma of confusions could have progenated such a perceived universe so different from the one we actually live in.

After the dissolution of the Soviet government, there was the matter of privatizing all of the state owned commodities and industries in order to transition the economy from a command economy to something market based. Initially British and US interests were interested in carving up Russian resources, as any empire is wont to do after the defeat of its enemy, but the coup d'etat attempt and absolute chaos in Russia scared off foreign investors almost entirely because the country was unstable and the resources would have been too expensive to manage. So when Yeltsin lifts the price controls and tries to shock the country into capitalism, it fails pretty miserably because no one has money and foreign capital is not filling the country like he had hoped.

Fast forward a few years. Industries are not being managed. The government is bleeding money. The economy is blustering. So that's when they decide to auction off government assets at extraordinarily low prices because they're desperate to get it into the hands of the private market. But political insiders who are responsible for holding the auctions became the gatekeepers for access to economic rights and resources. Becoming a player in the economy at all meant personally enriching the people who were ostensibly the owners of those resources (because they held the keys). That meant that a lot of wealth went to friends, family, allies, and sometimes just right back to the person who signed off on these auctions (because they were given stock).

It's amazing to me that you mentioned Putin as campaigning against this. First off, Putin didn't campaign at all in 2000. At all. You're speaking as if he became a populist reformer that won the heart of the Cossack empire by promising to undo Yeltsin's horrible damage to the integrity of the country but Putin gave no speeches, held no rallies, gave no interviews, etc. He was Prime Minister in 1999 because Yeltsin resigned under scandal and won the election in 2000 by rigging it because he was already in control of the government and everyone had been loyal to him. Putin gained extreme popularity because the economy boomed after his election and because he bravely killed thousands of innocent muslims in Chechnya after making them the scapegoats for apartment bombings that he was probably responsible for.

I mentioned that the government was extremely loyal to Putin. This is because Putin had already mastered the economic corruption I detailed earlier while he was in charge of administrating foreign investment and business operating licenses in St. Petersburg from 1991 to 1996. He brought that same mentality to Moscow in 96 and quickly moved upward because 1) he had demonstrated extreme loyalty to mayor Sobchak in St. Petersburg and 2) he made sure that whenever he moved upward, the people that filled in below him were loyal or personally indebted to him.

But some corruption does not an oligarchy make. You forget that the second most important ingredient in creating the mafia state that we now know as Russia was extreme levels of violence in the 90s. The best example of this is the aluminum wars. Aluminum was an extremely valuable commodity that was already under the control of corrupt businessmen. But greed is insatiable and these men killed each other for years. Political assassinations, street violence. People were dying every day, but it's still hardly documented. Sometimes you read biographies of rich Russian oligarchs like Oleg Deripaska and read lines like "He went from being a poor laborer to getting his first share in a refinery in 199_. The details of how he obtained this stock are unclear." What that actually means is that he killed someone, or threatened someone, or made unsavory deals. You read the same things in Putin's biographies and everyone else's biography. There was a vast criminal underground that not only made deals with the government but in fact is the functioning government of Russia.

So, no, Clinton had nothing to do with this. It is all Russia's fault. I don't know how you came to that conclusion at all but it's probably from some straight up propaganda or leftist revisionism where the reigning attitude is still "the Soviets were not so bad compared to US imperialism."

awesome post.

that dude is a fucking lost cause though and he's not coming back to engage at all.
 
Sometimes I chance upon wrongheaded nonsense like this and wonder to myself what unholy miasma of confusions could have progenated such a perceived universe so different from the one we actually live in.

After the dissolution of the Soviet government, there was the matter of privatizing all of the state owned commodities and industries in order to transition the economy from a command economy to something market based. Initially British and US interests were interested in carving up Russian resources, as any empire is wont to do after the defeat of its enemy, but the coup d'etat attempt and absolute chaos in Russia scared off foreign investors almost entirely because the country was unstable and the resources would have been too expensive to manage. So when Yeltsin lifts the price controls and tries to shock the country into capitalism, it fails pretty miserably because no one has money and foreign capital is not filling the country like he had hoped.

Fast forward a few years. Industries are not being managed. The government is bleeding money. The economy is blustering. So that's when they decide to auction off government assets at extraordinarily low prices because they're desperate to get it into the hands of the private market. But political insiders who are responsible for holding the auctions became the gatekeepers for access to economic rights and resources. Becoming a player in the economy at all meant personally enriching the people who were ostensibly the owners of those resources (because they held the keys). That meant that a lot of wealth went to friends, family, allies, and sometimes just right back to the person who signed off on these auctions (because they were given stock).

It's amazing to me that you mentioned Putin as campaigning against this. First off, Putin didn't campaign at all in 2000. At all. You're speaking as if he became a populist reformer that won the heart of the Cossack empire by promising to undo Yeltsin's horrible damage to the integrity of the country but Putin gave no speeches, held no rallies, gave no interviews, etc. He was Prime Minister in 1999 because Yeltsin resigned under scandal and won the election in 2000 by rigging it because he was already in control of the government and everyone had been loyal to him. Putin gained extreme popularity because the economy boomed after his election and because he bravely killed thousands of innocent muslims in Chechnya after making them the scapegoats for apartment bombings that he was probably responsible for.

I mentioned that the government was extremely loyal to Putin. This is because Putin had already mastered the economic corruption I detailed earlier while he was in charge of administrating foreign investment and business operating licenses in St. Petersburg from 1991 to 1996. He brought that same mentality to Moscow in 96 and quickly moved upward because 1) he had demonstrated extreme loyalty to mayor Sobchak in St. Petersburg and 2) he made sure that whenever he moved upward, the people that filled in below him were loyal or personally indebted to him.

But some corruption does not an oligarchy make. You forget that the second most important ingredient in creating the mafia state that we now know as Russia was extreme levels of violence in the 90s. The best example of this is the aluminum wars. Aluminum was an extremely valuable commodity that was already under the control of corrupt businessmen. But greed is insatiable and these men killed each other for years. Political assassinations, street violence. People were dying every day, but it's still hardly documented. Sometimes you read biographies of rich Russian oligarchs like Oleg Deripaska and read lines like "He went from being a poor laborer to getting his first share in a refinery in 199_. The details of how he obtained this stock are unclear." What that actually means is that he killed someone, or threatened someone, or made unsavory deals. You read the same things in Putin's biographies and everyone else's biography. There was a vast criminal underground that not only made deals with the government but in fact is the functioning government of Russia.

So, no, Clinton had nothing to do with this. It is all Russia's fault. I don't know how you came to that conclusion at all but it's probably from some straight up propaganda or leftist revisionism where the reigning attitude is still "the Soviets were not so bad compared to US imperialism."

Yea but her emails tho...
 
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