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[Viewt]

This is the kind of post I wanted (others too who posted before him), This is some introspective stuff that I really like to see.

As a black man, you're basically living my life. I act a certain way around my white coworkers because I have to be as non threatening as possible. I smile a lot (i hate smiling), try to to avoid talking politics (gotta avoid that of course he's a liberal look), make sure to never lose my temper in ANY way shape or form (cant be labeled the angry black man) and even outside of work it affects how I act.

It's tiring and you deserve props for posting this imo. (so does OP)

Thanks.

And what you said is what I always think about whenever someone says, "Yeah, we get it, racism is wrong, but fuck, I'm tired of talking/hearing about this all the fucking time." I always refer back to the Jon Stewart quote, which goes something like, "If you're this annoyed from hearing about it, think about how terrible it must be to live it."

 

[Captain Pants]

This is the kind of post I wanted (others too who posted before him), This is some introspective stuff that I really like to see.

As a black man, you're basically living my life. I act a certain way around my white coworkers because I have to be as non threatening as possible. I smile a lot (i hate smiling), try to to avoid talking politics (gotta avoid that of course he's a liberal look), make sure to never lose my temper in ANY way shape or form (cant be labeled the angry black man) and even outside of work it affects how I act.

It's tiring and you deserve props for posting this imo. (so does OP)

Reading things like this always hurts my heart, because I know that I can't ever understand what it is to go through life knowing that you terrify a subset of idiots. That you are seen as a potential time bomb. Dealing with that in the workplace has to be maddening. I think it has to create a self sustaining thing where it's hard to want to interact outside of your social circles or your race and harder and harder not to see white people as all being someone who could ruin your day on some level or another.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yup, I absolutely agree. Good writeup OP

Real uncomfortable truth that no one wants to sit with. Especially white liberals who have built up a sense of self around the idea that they will be on the right side of history.

As a white guy, I feel all I can really do is take people as they are and do my best to accept individuals including how their particular culture shaped them. There's no way for me to try and relate to anyone of color that doesn't come off as "Well I have black friends and..." so the conversation feels pointless.

That's a large part of why I think its important we really work to disassociate "racist" and "sexist" from being judgements of character. Okay I worded that kind of awkwardly, but as long as people reflexively associate "you did a racist thing" with "you are a bad person" we'll never get anywhere

 

[Black Republican]

Also The whole "if only older white people die off, racism would be over" thing is bad, i remember it being spouted alot during the 2008/12 elections as if young millennials cant be racist. That really has to stop.

 

[jtb]

Yup, I absolutely agree. Good writeup OP



That's a large part of why I think its important we really work to disassociate "racist" and "sexist" from being judgements of character. Okay I worded that kind of awkwardly, but as long as people reflexively associate "you did a racist thing" with "you are a bad person" we'll never get anywhere

I'm not sure normalizing racism is such a good idea. People are always going to be defensive when being accused of something negative. So what? Being racist is bad. Being sexist is bad. I don't think it's wrong to say that. There's no reason to tolerate ignorance over hurt feelings. If anything, I would argue this kind of white liberal emotional racism outlined in the OP is basically what happens when you allow these questions and issues to go unanswered and unchallenged... it kind of re-inserts itself into people's psyche and perpetuates this kind of implicit racial bias.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Also The whole "if only older white people die off, racism would be over" thing is bad, i remember it being spouted alot during the 2008/12 elections as if young millennials cant be racist. That really has to stop.

That and people think that said racists totes don't pass down their views to their offsprings. Shit is laughable.

I also hate the "If we ignore racism it'll go away" line. Like I want to hit people in the face with a brick when they say that.

 

[xKilltheMx]

Whistling Vivaldi
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Whistling-Vivaldi-How-Stereotypes-Affect-Us-and-What-We-Can-Do/15182722

Read this. This is the basic premise for the book. A black guy whistling Vivaldi on the street to seem less threatening.

Thanks for the heads up, theres so many books im supposed to be reading I cant guarantee I'll get to it but I'll try.

Thanks.

And what you said is what I always think about whenever someone says, "Yeah, we get it, racism is wrong, but fuck, I'm tired of talking/hearing about this all the fucking time." I always refer back to the Jon Stewart quote, which goes something like, "If you're this annoyed from hearing about it, think about how terrible it must be to live it."

Lol i didnt look at the name/pic because the content was so good. But I know exactly the quote you mean.

Reading things like this always hurts my heart, because I know that I can't ever understand what it is to go through life knowing that you terrify a subset of idiots. That you are seen as a potential time bomb. Dealing with that in the workplace has to be maddening. I think it has to create a self sustaining thing where it's hard to want to interact outside of your social circles or your race and harder and harder not to see white people as all being someone who could ruin your day on some level or another.

I actually went to a predominantly white school, but also very diverse: black, hispanic, indian etc. Most of my friends were white so most of my life I've been doing it - mainly around their parents. It just...becomes you. I'm split in two honestly - Friendly White people acceptable me and Me.
Eh. Kinda depressing to think about.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This is the kind of post I wanted (others too who posted before him), This is some introspective stuff that I really like to see.

As a black man, you're basically living my life. I act a certain way around my white coworkers because I have to be as non threatening as possible. I smile a lot (i hate smiling), try to to avoid talking politics (gotta avoid that of course he's a liberal look), make sure to never lose my temper in ANY way shape or form (cant be labeled the angry black man) and even outside of work it affects how I act.

It's tiring and you deserve props for posting this imo. (so does OP)

Pretty much. Having my parents drill into my head how I was a big scary black kid didn't help either, lmao. I grew up always worrying about not making White classmates and teachers uncomfortable.

 

[boiled goose]

I also recommend this scientific article

Failure to warn: How student race affects warnings of potential academic diffculty
http://psychology.williams.edu/files/Crosby.Monin_.2007.pdf

It shows how prejudice of majority greats can lead to bad outcomes for minorities, even when the majority person is well intentioned.

Basically, white people are seen as more likely to be racially insensitive or be prejudiced. (prejudice about being prejudiced lol, but it is true)

So academic advisors for example, might give different advise to a white student than to a black student regarding overly difficult coursework. An advisor is less likely to tell a black student that he is taking a course load that is too difficult because the advisor doesn't want to be seen as being racially prejudiced.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I think in addition to the behavioral or emotional racism you're identifying, there is still a good portion of intellectual racism that many do not accept. That is, some hold the idea that "true racism" has to be explicit and objectively intended. You see this a lot in connection with discussions regarding affirmative action, usually alongside the 'merit' argument. Since we've largely eliminated conscious/objective discrimination against minorities, so the argument goes, then everyone is on equal footing and we shouldn't consider race anymore, just merit. That colorblind current that denies institutional or cultural racism can be pretty strong in certain circles.

I am kind of reminded of a portion of a Tim Wise post regarding the liberal backlash against BLM:

But there is one thing about which I am crystal clear: the place to air those concerns, and to have those discussions is not out here, in the wide and very public world of the interwebs. This is one of the things that sticks out most to me about the white leftie backlash to #BlackLivesMatter: precisely because those folks are not involved in BLM or the larger movement for racial justice, they don’t have anyone in their personal circles or activist circles to whom they can turn and have real heart-to-heart discussions about these things. Precisely because white lefties are so often cut off from the struggles being led by people of color, they (we) lack the insights, the narratives, the humility and the opportunities to hash this stuff out as friends and comrades behind closed doors. So instead, they (we) end up doing dirt in public, completely oblivious to the way in which truly reactionary forces and the dominant media will try and take advantage of those disagreements to drive a wedge in our movements.

That is the problem. The issue is not about being white, and therefore “unable” to criticize black people. Jesus, how anyone could believe that in a culture where white critique of black people is a daily, hourly, minute-by-minute pastime is beyond me. Rather the issue is, are you connected enough to black and brown leadership to actually sit in struggle with them, listen to them, learn from them, and then offer your feedback from a place of solidarity, comradeship and love? Because if the answer to that last question is no, then you shouldn’t be surprised when the black and brown peoples you criticize think you’re full of shit. If they haven’t seen your face in their place, working on the issues that they prioritize as if their lives depended on it – because they do — then why in God’s name should they presume your commitment to the cause? On the other hand, if the answer to the question above were yes, my guess is you wouldn’t be losing your mind about what #BlackLivesMatter folks are doing, even if you had some strategic differences with them. You would take that shit to them, because you would be part of them, or because you actually knew them, and you’d work it the hell out.

And if you don’t know where those circles are, within which you could have those discussions productively, then that is the problem. It isn’t that white folks have to agree with everything black people do. Rather, it is this: until we show ourselves to be folks who are down for the eradication of white supremacy as a primary concern (and not something we’ll get to later, after we address the corporate oligarchy or climate change or Wall Street criminality), then we cannot expect to be taken seriously by those whose ability to put matters of racial justice on the back burner is constrained by this thing we call breathing.

 

[LiquidSword]

Great post. I've had thoughts about this exact topic a lot lately. Specifically because of a friend of mine who is also white. He's super liberal and like me pays attention to the news and politics and speaks out against inequality, but anytime he talks to a black person he changes the way he talks subtlety. I think some posters probably know what I mean since I've seen some black posters here talk about that happening to them. It's totally racist and I could never really figure out a way to confront him about it because I know he would either deny he's doing it or says he's not racist.

Another racist thing that bothers me in my white liberal friend group is that because I've dated a couple black girls, now I'm the guy who has the "fever." The term "jungle fever" is so obviously racist and I'm just like wtf. Whenever I'm dating someone new the first question is "Is she black?"

Sorry I didn't mean for this to be a rant but it's hard to confront your friends and be like hey guys you are being totally racist when like the OP said they are already comfortable in their knowing that they are not racist. Also I'm sure there are a lot of posters with white friends who are "totally not racist" that do these same things, so I think it's relevant and maybe some posters can relate.

P.S I see it in my self a bit too. I already have social anxiety and when interacting with minorities who are strangers I feel anxiety because I don't want to do anything to be perceived as racist. My anxiety over that probably shows sometimes and makes it awkward.

 

[LiquidSword]

Yup, I absolutely agree. Good writeup OP



That's a large part of why I think its important we really work to disassociate "racist" and "sexist" from being judgements of character. Okay I worded that kind of awkwardly, but as long as people reflexively associate "you did a racist thing" with "you are a bad person" we'll never get anywhere

Yep totally agree. And this relates to the end of my post above. This is the reason I feel that anxiety and this is why so many white people don't want to analyze if they have done a racist thing because people think of this as (excuse the pun) a black and white issue so either you are racist or you aren't.

 

[jordan0386]

Why is everybody a little racist a thing?

Why would I as a black male be a little racist to any other group?

And to be honest, the statement should read everybody is a little racist to black people.

And to be honest again, I only hear/read on public forums of white people saying this.

It irks me a great deal.

 

[Deified Data]

Just like any other group, white liberals aren’t actually a monolith, so understand that the group I’m really referring to is the kind of white liberal who grew up in a middle class (or even upper-middle class) environment, took Gifted and Advanced classes through school and went to a liberal university to get their degree. And now they’re “politically active” in a way that requires very little of them in the way of actual action. Stuff like getting into arguments on Twitter and citing think pieces on Salon during conversation.

This guy (or gal - white liberal ladies are equally guilty of this, and white feminism is a whole other thing that I’m not nearly qualified to speak on) grew up being told that they were smart, that they were well-read, and that they’re part of the superior liberal society. There is a TREMENDOUS superiority complex that white liberals have, because by being on the right side of intellectual racism, they believe they’re absolved of their emotional racism. And beyond that, this superiority complex breeds venom for anyone who even disagrees with them, let alone points out some of their own flaws.

Thanks for giving this ol' white liberal an easy out.

Yeah, these people are totally a problem. Any of them wanna step forward and defend themselves?
.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Good observations, OP. I agree with you.

By the way, looks like you are definitely white. It doesn't matter if you have hispanic descent as hispanics can be white. Don't believe in that "one drop rule" thing.

 

[genjiZERO]

This isn't my experience. Of the white people I know the vast majority both know that racism is wrong from a logical perspective, and genuinely feel compassion for those who are affected.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Why is everybody a little racist a thing?

Why would I as a black male be a little racist to any other group?

And to be honest, the statement should read everybody is a little racist to black people.

And to be honest again, I only hear/read on public forums of white people saying this.

It irks me a great deal.

It's possible that what they're saying is everyone at least has unconscious biases. Trying to recognize these biases and interrupting them is something we should all ideally strive for, but it isn't always easy.

 

[Aurongel]

I feel like the OP (great job on this btw) is really just discussing the more subtle grey areas of racism that most of us take for granted. It's not of the same aggressive intent that straight up hate speech embodies but is instead just smaller subtle differences in how we interact and perceive people who we recognize as different from ourselves. For me, intent is the defining factor of what defines the severity of something "racist". Hate speech, slurs and police brutality are very direct put downs meant to directly instill inferiority into the victim. Feeling uneasy on a train full of black people is obviously a far lesser shade of this and might say more about what someone is used to then them feeling black people are innately inferior.

The binary nature of how we use the term "racist" makes analyzing this grey area very difficult, even among self-described liberals.

 

[LosDaddie]

Great post. I've had thoughts about this exact topic a lot lately. Specifically because of a friend of mine who is also white. He's super liberal and like me pays attention to the news and politics and speaks out against inequality, but anytime he talks to a black person he changes the way he talks subtlety. I think some posters probably know what I mean since I've seen some black posters here talk about that happening to them. It's totally racist and I could never really figure out a way to confront him about it because I know he would either deny he's doing it or says he's not racist.

Another racist thing that bothers me in my white liberal friend group is that because I've dated a couple black girls, now I'm the guy who has the "fever." The term "jungle fever" is so obviously racist and I'm just like wtf. Whenever I'm dating someone new the first question is "Is she black?"

Sorry I didn't mean for this to be a rant but it's hard to confront your friends and be like hey guys you are being totally racist when like the OP said they are already comfortable in their knowing that they are not racist. Also I'm sure there are a lot of posters with white friends who are "totally not racist" that do these same things, so I think it's relevant and maybe some posters can relate.

P.S I see it in my self a bit too. I already have social anxiety and when interacting with minorities who are strangers I feel anxiety because I don't want to do anything to be perceived as racist. My anxiety over that probably shows sometimes and makes it awkward.

Some of this stuff isn't racism, though. But rather human nature.

For example, you said your friend subtlety changes how he talks around different people. Everyone does this. Not racism, at least not in every case. The OP claimed that being uncomfortable around a group of strangers who are also a different race is "emotional racism" where I'd say it's more human nature more than anything else. I'd also say that you having anxiety interacting with strangers is, again, more human nature than racism.

The OP makes some good points, though.

 

[Gallbaro]

It is institutional as well among white liberals.

More than 100 anxious parents gathered in the auditorium at PS 8 in Brooklyn Heights last night to discuss the proposed rezoning of two public elementary schools serving swaths of Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO, Vinegar Hill and Fort Greene that are currently divided along racial and socioeconomic lines.

The rezoning would require predominantly white, upper-middle-class, bursting-at-the-seams PS 8 to move DUMBO and Vinegar Hill families to PS 307—a school that is currently under capacity, and predominantly serves African-American residents of the NYCHA-run Farragut Houses.

Black and Hispanic students currently represent 34% of PS 8's student body, while PS 307 is 95% minority. Under the proposed rezoning these percentages are expected to shift to 25-35% and 55-65% respectively.

"This is a difficult process, and we don't do it well in NYC," said David Goldsmith, president of Community Education Council 13, which will ultimately vote on the rezoning. "We're the most segregated school system in the country. These are communities that aren't used to working together."

"We know some white people don't want to go to PS 307 because it's predominantly black," said a spokeswoman from The Church of the Open Door, which many residents of the Farragut Houses attend. "And some of the black people don't want this influx of white people coming in. To do it so shockingly and so quickly… let's stop the present plan and fight for the time to create a new plan."

http://gothamist.com/2015/09/22/dumbo_school_rezoning_fight.php

 

[OceanBlue]

Why is everybody a little racist a thing?

Why would I as a black male be a little racist to any other group?

And to be honest, the statement should read everybody is a little racist to black people.

And to be honest again, I only hear/read on public forums of white people saying this.

It irks me a great deal.

I don't understand this. Why can't black people be racist towards other minorities for reasons similar to why other minorities can be racist towards black people?

"Everyone is a little bit racist" does sound a bit like "All lives matter" though.

 

[Trojita]

Pretty much. Having my parents drill into my head how I was a big scary black kid didn't help either, lmao. I grew up always worrying about not making White classmates and teachers uncomfortable.

Gentle giant.

 

[Slayven]

Pretty much. Having my parents drill into my head how I was a big scary black kid didn't help either, lmao. I grew up always worrying about not making White classmates and teachers uncomfortable.

I remember reading a post from a black dude on here where he said he always tried to keep smiling while in the office, just to keep from having those problems.

 

[Clefargle]

I'm a white liberal that struggles with racism still. Where do you get off telling me what my own thought processes are OP? I do not have an entitled attitude of superiority. I'm not unracist just because I believe that minorities have been opressed. Speak for yourself

 

[Trojita]

I remember reading a post from a black dude on here where he said he always tried to keep smiling while in the office, just to keep from having those problems.

 

[akira28]

I'm a white liberal that struggles with racism still. Where do you get off telling me what my own thought processes are OP? I do not have an entitled attitude of superiority. I'm not unracist just because I believe that minorities have been opressed. Speak for yourself

Well he did start off by saying he wsn't talking about all white liberals because they're not a monolith. But what are your thought processes, how are you struggling with racism. What is this unracism thing?

Why is everybody a little racist a thing?

Why would I as a black male be a little racist to any other group?

And to be honest, the statement should read everybody is a little racist to black people.

And to be honest again, I only hear/read on public forums of white people saying this.

It irks me a great deal.

It's a song by Avenue Q to make people (I guess urban to suburban white hipsters)feel better about being a little racist. Because "everyone is a little racist". it's a Sesame Street parody with...shitty ripples.

Shitty...Shitty ripples : FBI chief James Comey: ‘Everyone’s a little bit racist’

 

[hellmonkey]

Is there a difference between not liking someone because of their race and not liking them because of their culture, but that culture is the "image" of that race? Is that still racist?

I don't not like Blacks/Hispanics, but I'm fed up with the ghetto/gang culture. Does that make me a racist? What about being disgusted with the white trash, trailer park, meth head culture? Am I racist against whites?

If I want welfare reform, does that make me racist, even though theres about a 1% difference between black and white recipients?

If I want immigration reform, I'm labelled as a racist before I even explain my stance.

Also, why is changing your behavior around a certain group labelling you as a racist? I talk to my wife, my children, my co-workers, and my boss differently. Why is it bad to talk another race differently as long as its non derogatory? Part of being an adult is fitting in to the group you are interacting with and finding a common ground. If changing your dialect facilitates that, then why is that bad?

I don't want to make light of these very real issues, but we label EVERYTHING as racist and it makes change damn near impossible and its frustrating as hell. Racism is getting worse, because we are labelling everything as racist, when, at least to me, it really isn't.

As someone said in the PC thread, the pendulum has swung too far to one side.

 

[LiquidSword]

Some of this stuff isn't racism, though. But rather human nature.

For example, you said your friend subtlety changes how he talks around different people. Everyone does this. Not racism, at least not in every case. The OP claimed that being uncomfortable around a group of strangers who are also a different race is "emotional racism" where I'd say it's more human nature more than anything else. I'd also say that you having anxiety interacting with strangers is, again, more human nature than racism.

The OP makes some good points, though.

Just saying its human nature seems like the kind of shrugging it off as not a problem that the OP was talking about

 

[metalslimer]

Is there a difference between not liking someone because of their race and not liking them because of their culture, but that culture is the "image" of that race? Is that still racist?

I don't not like Blacks/Hispanics, but I'm fed up with the ghetto/gang culture. Does that make me a racist? What about being disgusted with the white trash, trailer park, meth head culture? Am I racist against whites?

If I want welfare reform, does that make me racist, even though theres about a 1% difference between black and white recipients?

If I want immigration reform, I'm labelled as a racist before I even explain my stance.

Also, why is changing your behavior around a certain group labelling you as a racist? I talk to my wife, my children, my co-workers, and my boss differently. Why is it bad to talk another race differently as long as its non derogatory? Part of being an adult is fitting in to the group you are interacting with and finding a common ground. If changing your dialect facilitates that, then why is that bad?

I don't want to make light of these very real issues, but we label EVERYTHING as racist and it makes change damn near impossible and its frustrating as hell. Racism is getting worse, because we are labelling everything as racist, when, at least to me, it really isn't.

As someone said in the PC thread, the pendulum has swung too far to one side.

If anything not enough is labeled as racist as institutional racism is rarely called out in real life.

 

[besada]

Why is everybody a little racist a thing?

Why would I as a black male be a little racist to any other group?

And to be honest, the statement should read everybody is a little racist to black people.

And to be honest again, I only hear/read on public forums of white people saying this.

It irks me a great deal.

Everyone has unconscious biases, regardless of race. If you want to be depressed, look at the results of the studies that show that even black men are unconsciously biased against black men.

This is a very interesting site, which covers information about studies of implicit bias, a cognitive defect all humans are prone to, which is heavily involved in racism, particularly soft or emotional racism:
http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/research/understanding-implicit-bias/

It also has ways to join and work on increasing information on the subject, as well as working to folks deal with these biases, as they seem fairly malleable.

You can also test your own implicit biases here:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

 

[boiled goose]

Also, why is changing your behavior around a certain group labelling you as a racist? I talk to my wife, my children, my co-workers, and my boss differently. Why is it bad to talk another race differently as long as its non derogatory? Part of being an adult is fitting in to the group you are interacting with and finding a common ground. If changing your dialect facilitates that, then why is that bad?

.

So here is an issue.
As pointed out in the thread it might be natural to do this, but the question is why.

You know your wife, children, coworkers, while changing your behavior because of someone's race could be due to prejudice. (you don't know anything about an individual yet your assumptions are dictating your behavior)

It is natural, but if you are interested in making the world better, you would try to understand it and in some cases try to fight this prejudice.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Is there a difference between not liking someone because of their race and not liking them because of their culture, but that culture is the "image" of that race? Is that still racist?

I don't not like Blacks/Hispanics, but I'm fed up with the ghetto/gang culture. Does that make me a racist? What about being disgusted with the white trash, trailer park, meth head culture? Am I racist against whites?

If I want welfare reform, does that make me racist, even though theres about a 1% difference between black and white recipients?

If I want immigration reform, I'm labelled as a racist before I even explain my stance.

Also, why is changing your behavior around a certain group labelling you as a racist? I talk to my wife, my children, my co-workers, and my boss differently. Why is it bad to talk another race differently as long as its non derogatory? Part of being an adult is fitting in to the group you are interacting with and finding a common ground. If changing your dialect facilitates that, then why is that bad?

I don't want to make light of these very real issues, but we label EVERYTHING as racist and it makes change damn near impossible and its frustrating as hell. Racism is getting worse, because we are labelling everything as racist, when, at least to me, it really isn't.

As someone said in the PC thread, the pendulum has swung too far to one side.

When you see a black or Hispanic person on the street, do you immediately draw parallels to the "culture" you dislike? Is your first instinct to think less of them if they look like they might be into that sort of thing? Likewise, would you feel that way towards an average white guy on the street? What if they looked more like what you believe "white trash" looks like? Or do you not think of a specific look when you're imagining it? Not being judgmental here, genuinely curious.

 

[Deified Data]

This is something I am so guilty of on an unconscious level. I'm not making excuses for it, as much as I'm explaining it. Growing up in Idaho is weird because you rarely ever meet minorities. Combine that with me being the most anxious person ever, and I'm always worried that I'm going to say something stupid or make someone uncomfortable.

I've never had an overtly racist thought in my life, but I've had plenty of moments where I alter my behavior around other races and find myself ashamed. It's like when someone reminds you that you are breathing, and then all of a sudden each breath feels weird and controlled instead of something automatic. If I can't avoid interactions with people I don't know, I take on a more outwardly friendly and extroverted facade, that's especially true with people of different races. I do it so that they know I'm friendly and not racist. That change in behavior is absolutely racist and I know I don't come across as a genuine person in that moment. I don't know how to explain it. There isn't hatred in my heart, there is awkwardness and a fear that I'm going to be misunderstood. That's not a fair thing to put on anyone else.

I don't think it's white guilt, maybe it is. Maybe it's white guilt's little brother. White awkward. In any case, it is shitty.

This mirrors my experience quite well - it's one of those oft-ignored quirks of racial tension in the US, a by-product of being mindful of institutional racism and a certain eagerness for acceptance.

It's not guilt. It's a manifestation of social anxiety that comes from the same place as holding the door open for someone halfway down the sidewalk from you. What if you don't, and that person thinks you'e inconsiderate? You know you're not, but someone thinking you are is far, far worse. So you avoid this outcome at all costs, even when doing so crosses into irrational territory.

Is it racism? No. It's a weird by-product. Working in a position where I have to interact with dozens of strangers a day, it's always served me well - no one's going to take offense to being treated with respect. The only difference between interactions with a black patron and a white one is mindfulness of their respective social expectations. This is of course a stereotype. There are tons of minorities who go months without thinking about racism until a white person reminds them of it, but holding that stereotype and using that presumption (that minorities expect to encounter a certain degree of racism in their day-to-day lives) to ensure you treat people with respect...is it a bad thing? That'd be an interesting conversation.

The internet has taught me that as a liberal white male, the world has a certain expectation that I harbor subconsciously racist/sexist/homophobic thoughts and act on them subliminally. So I don't. It's a fascinating dynamic.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Half-white, half-Hispanic liberal here. I've been thinking a lot about my relationship to black people lately, and I think it's fair to call myself emotionally racist towards black people. I don't have any black friends at the moment, and back when I did in high school, they tended to be more culturally white. Doesn't help that out of all the classes I'm taking this semester at college, there's a grand total of one black person.

A good example is my views on hip-hop. On an intellectual level, I respect it and will even defend it to the best of my ability. On an emotional level, I listen to very little of it, and it's something I have difficulty connecting to.

 

[Dio]

Edit: This is derailing this discussion. Deleting this post to get the thread back on track.

 

[hellmonkey]

Some of this stuff isn't racism, though. But rather human nature.

For example, you said your friend subtlety changes how he talks around different people. Everyone does this. Not racism, at least not in every case. The OP claimed that being uncomfortable around a group of strangers who are also a different race is "emotional racism" where I'd say it's more human nature more than anything else. I'd also say that you having anxiety interacting with strangers is, again, more human nature than racism.

The OP makes some good points, though.

I was eluding to this with my other post, well parts of it.

If youre put in a room with groups Teens, 30-something parents, and retirees and then asked to have a conversation with one of the groups, most people would pick the group they are most similar too. This is normal and expected behavior.

If you did the same with groups of whites, Asians, Hispanics, and blacks, I think anyone going to the group that represents their race would be labelled a racist. Preferring to interact with your own group doesn't make your racist.

 

[LosDaddie]

Just saying its human nature seems like the kind of shrugging it off as not a problem that the OP was talking about

Those are not "problems" that can be fixed, though.

People will always change how they speak among different groups of people. You do it. I do it. Everyone does it. It's human nature. Having anxiety/being uncomfortable around strangers is a natural reaction. Everyone has this reaction to varying degrees.

Simply labeling these things as "racist" cheapens the word and its impact.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm white (1/4 hispanic, but I look german with red hair to everyone, so I don't pretend I have anything but a white perspective) and grew up in a city that was (before Katrina) 2/3 black and went to public schools. One of my earliest memories is sitting in a classroom with another kid and we were both fascinated that he had brown skin and I had pink skin but the undersides of our hands looked pretty much the same. All the way through college, I had a great deal of interaction with a decent chunk of the cultures which overlap along the Gulf Coast.

I've never experienced this, the emotional side. My challenge is different, it's been having to force myself to not be colorblind and not be casually racist by forgetting who I'm talking to when I'm blurting out brain droppings. I have no social anxiety around anyone based on appearance alone, and it took a while before I realized that's not really any kind of virtue if it means you don't think before you speak.

 

[hellmonkey]

When you see a black or Hispanic person on the street, do you immediately draw parallels to the "culture" you dislike? Is your first instinct to think less of them if they look like they might be into that sort of thing? Likewise, would you feel that way towards an average white guy on the street? What if they looked more like what you believe "white trash" looks like? Or do you not think of a specific look when you're imagining it? Not being judgmental here, genuinely curious.

It depends on how they present themselves. If they are dressed up like gang member or presenting the body language, then yes, whether they be white, black, or Hispanic.

If they looks like a normal person, then no.

We are told to not judge a book by its cover, but that is almost always our first impression. We usually look at someone long before we have any other way to interact or sense (smell, talk, touch) Its human nature to judge and understand our surroundings.

I would get vastly different reactions to people depending on how approach them depending on how I'm dressed and carrying myself. Its why we wear suits to job interviews. We are always being judged by everyone. I'm not saying I like that, but its the truth of human nature.

 

[ivysaur12]

I have nothing else to add besides the fact that I sent the OP to a bunch of friends with like 5 clapping emojis.

 

[CrushDance]

I was eluding to this with my other post, well parts of it.

If youre put in a room with groups Teens, 30-something parents, and retirees and then asked to have a conversation with one of the groups, most people would pick the group they are most similar too. This is normal and expected behavior.

If you did the same with groups of whites, Asians, Hispanics, and blacks, I think anyone going to the group that represents their race would be labelled a racist. Preferring to interact with your own group doesn't make your racist.

You can't have it both ways. Either the west is a melting pot or it's not. And secondly, when it comes to black people and white people in America especially. There is literally no excuse for the huge amounts of segregation other than one group views the other as inferior. Blacks and whites have been together for hundreds of years, gone through the same conditions, same wars, same turmoil, etc. The blacks in America even have white names and very little of their own identity remains from Africa. What makes them a different group? These are people who were purposefully stripped of everything including their names and have been chasing witness for a long time, had a religion that wasn't there's forced upon to the point where they believe more now that the people who gave it to them! If your idea that people prefer to stay within their own groups were true regarding race; then kindly explain to me why black women marry less white men when they've been together longest history wise in America. Why is it that it's asian women and white men?

You know why if you're a 15 year old you'd go hang out with the other 15 year olds instead of the retirees? because you have more in common. Like you just said. And so I'm asking you, what is it that black Americans are lacking in common with white Americans. And why do Asian people have it? Which group is that has names like Thomas, Dave, Tyrone, Damian, Amber, Kaley and last names that Hart, Woods, Clarke, Duncan...but have dark skin?

 

[LiquidSword]

Those are not "problems" that can be fixed, though.

People will always change how they speak among different groups of people. You do it. I do it. Everyone does it. It's human nature. Having anxiety/being uncomfortable around strangers is a natural reaction. Everyone has this reaction to varying degrees.

Simply labeling these things as "racist" cheapens the word and its impact.

To be clear I wasn't saying my anxiety was racist. CaptPants was saying the same kind of thing so I thought it was relevant but I didn't word it right. The way he put it as like a by product of white guilt is totally spot on. On the first point though there is a difference between speaking more politely around your boss or your mom and meeting a black person for the first time and changing the way you pronounce words and putting on an "urban" accent. It is a form of racism because your bias whether conscious or not are telling you this person is black so they must talk like this, therefore I will talk like this to relate. It would be like putting on a southern drawl whenever you talk to someone from the south. And I don't think anyone is saying that these "problems" can be fixed as a whole. The only person I can change is myself. The only way to solve these problems is self reflection.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Fantastic OP. Introspection can be rough sometimes.

 

[APF]

you'll notice that there's a recent rash of white males during the Gamergate debacle who started being almost militant feminists because they assumed it would help them to get into women's pants.

Do you feel any cognitive dissonance between posting the image you included and writing the above?

 

[Anne]

Checking in to say I'm white, grew up middle class, was in a gifted program, started at a more liberal campus, and so on. I was a part of this problem until my own experiences led to a falling out with the white liberal community, and I had to reexamine some things and came to a lot of these same conclusions.

There's definitely a lot of fear involved and social pressure from that community is the only thing I have to add. There's a whole lot of shaming and a whole lot of uncomfortable justifications when somebody expresses an idea that's inconvenient to the majority in that area :/

 

[Dio]

Do you feel any cognitive dissonance between posting the image you included and writing the above?

You're not reading carefully. I said 'a rash of people', not 'every man who supported women during Gamergate was doing it for ulterior motives.' In fact, the overwhelmingly vast majority of men supporting women during that shitstorm were people doing it because it was the right thing to do. I was simply using that as an example of 'white male liberals' doing things that other people told them were good to do for their own personal benefit. It's not a large number of people, but you don't need to have a lot of people doing something for it to be bad - see the shitheads harassing women as the other side of that coin.

 

[Tarydax]

That was an excellent read, OP. The way you described emotional racism was eye-opening. This part in particular stuck out to me, not just because of the truth of it, but because it was a fantastic bit of writing:

See, it’s VERY easy to shrug off emotional racism when you feel like it doesn’t define you as a person. I mean, sure, I’ll maybe cross the street if I see a bunch of thug-looking black guys walking on the sidewalk, but that doesn’t make me a RACIST, right? I mean, it’s not like I’m actually hurting anyone, am I? Well, yes, I am. My behavior may be invisible to the world at large (or even to that group of guys who just aren’t dressed up that day for whatever reason), but it isn’t invisible to me. And every time I justify it to myself as a reasonable action, it becomes more and more default behavior. And after a while, it actually becomes who I am.

Like, daaaaamn, if my college classes had books that were written like that, I would have enjoyed reading them.

 

[LosDaddie]

To be clear I wasn't saying my anxiety was racist. CaptPants was saying the same kind of thing so I thought it was relevant but I didn't word it right. The way he put it as like a by product of white guilt is totally spot on. On the first point though there is a difference between speaking more politely around your boss or your mom and meeting a black person for the first time and changing the way you pronounce words and putting on an "urban" accent. It is a form of racism because your bias whether conscious or not are telling you this person is black so they must talk like this, therefore I will talk like this to relate. It would be like putting on a southern drawl whenever you talk to someone from the south. And I don't think anyone is saying that these "problems" can be fixed as a whole. The only person I can change is myself. The only way to solve these problems is self reflection.

You said that your friend "subtlety" (key word there) changes how he speaks around different people. Everyone does that, you and I included. It's human nature.

"Subtlety" is not the word I would use when someone lays on a thick urban/southern accent when talking to those groups. And yes, I would consider that racism to a degree.

OP said being uncomfortable around strangers is "emotionally racist", when it's a natural reaction everyone has to a certain degree. Same thing with your anxiety. It's natural to not want to offend and be accepted among a group.

 

[ZoronMaro]

I've never heard them called intellectual and emotional, but I suppose it works.

I'm super white, pretty conservative (depends on which issue we're talking about really), and definitely grew up in the middle class, but this is definitely how I think, "yea I'm a little racist, but I'm working on it." But I think more self-reflection is something that pretty much everyone in society could use a whole lot more of for a lot of reasons, not just racism. We could also get into how social media discourages that kind of mentality by setting up echo chambers around everyone, but since it's clearly been a problem for longer than the internet's been around that's not really fair.

I think a lot of emotional growth comes from just interacting with people outside your comfort zone. I once had a job, very briefly, where I was the only white person who worked there, never become real friends with anyone, but we were friendly with each other and having to work with minorities daily changed my viewpoint from when I was younger growing up in a 100% white suburb. If I could force everyone to have a job like that for even a week I totally would, but of course as you said you can only change yourself.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I can understand why a white liberal would feel uncomfortable but fuck it, they need to accept their history. I can accept how we're perceived in America but that doesn't mean I agree with the shit Trump says and neither does the majority. White liberals need to stop being scared to speak their mind. I think being PC does prevent people from feeling comfortable when talking about race.

This is true and all people live it. Honestly stirring up conversations on sensitive subjects is healthy and betters society. People hide themselves in every imaginable category, not just race. That doesn't mean go ham, but be real.