Why are men better at math ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The funniest thing is that the chart in the OP left out the highest performing countries.

In fact, girls performed better at math than boys in Singapore, which is the top rated country (since only Shanghai is used for China, that shouldn't count).

So what's the point of this thread again?

With the Shanghai-Singapore bit, i'm not sure what you're getting at. China's so large that educational standards and to an extent, societal norms can vary quite significantly and when you compare the population sizes of Shangai (~24,000,000) to Singapore (~5,500,000), it's not unreasonable to count it as a separate region for the purposes of this data.
That, and though it's interesting that girls performed better in Singapore, it's the exception above the OECD average (and for that matter, across most of the countries/regions sourced). Why is that? And why do boys generally perform better otherwise?
The report about the data was linked in the OP.
 
The way I see it, a thread post page 2 is no longer in the hands of the OP, nor s/he determines what the discussion is about anymore. My point was that the thread was now about what I said precisely because you posted it.

Ugh, I was having problem with the way the OP presented the data and framed the question. I do not have a problem with the rest of the thread.

With the Shanghai-Singapore bit, i'm not sure what you're getting at. China's so large that educational standards and to an extent, societal norms can vary quite significantly and when you compare the population sizes of Shangai (~24,000,000) to Singapore (~5,500,000), it's not unreasonable to count it as a separate region for the purposes of this data.
That, and though it's interesting that girls performed better in Singapore, it's the exception above the OECD average (and for that matter, across most of the countries/regions sourced). Why is that? And why do boys generally perform better otherwise?
The report about the data was linked in the OP.

Huh? I was just saying Singapore was the top country at math. Shanghai isn't a country. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

The exception? Singaporean girls averaged higher than ALL boys in any country in the world, and the question the OP is "Why are men better at math?".
 
I once read a study where math teachers graded tests where they couldn't see the students' names. Boys and girls scored about the same.

The same teachers then graded tests where they could see the names. Tests with noticeably "boyish" names scored higher overall despite having some of the exact same mistakes. They were more lenient on grading the boys subconsciously.
 
Huh? I was just saying Singapore was the top country at math. Shanghai isn't a country. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

No it's not a country, but i've explained why it might be singled out here. Could you explain why that discounts it being relevant beyond "It's not got borders though", and how that relates to the rest of the report?

The exception? Singaporean girls averaged higher than ALL boys in any country in the world, and the question the OP is "Why are men better at math?".

Yes, those girls in Singapore perform better than most girls and boys in the rest of the world, and Singaporean boys are also better than most boys and girls in the rest of the world at maths, but not Singaporean girls. Is this what you think this report was trying to show? Again, could you explain how any of this is particularly relevant?
 
It seems to me that the data indicates girls put forth much more effort in their studies. This makes me believe boys are on average better at math because they are testing equal or slightly better with much less effort than the girls.
 
No it's not a country, but i've explained why it might be singled out here. Could you explain why that discounts it being relevant beyond "It's not got borders though", and how that relates to the rest of the report?

I did not discount the score. I said it shouldn't count as a country when I wanted to use Singapore as the best country.

You don't have to be some god damn pedantic. It's annoying.

Yes, those girls in Singapore perform better than most girls and boys in the rest of the world, and Singaporean boys are also better than most boys and girls in the rest of the world at maths, but not Singaporean girls. Is this what you think this report was trying to show? Again, could you explain how any of this is particularly relevant?

Where the fuck did I say what I think about the report? The reports (yes there are multiple) are very nuanced and pointed out things like society factors and test anxiety as reasons for the discrepancy in the scores.

I never criticized the report. I criticized the OP for asking a loaded question and left out critical data that disproved his loaded question.

How any of this is relevant? When girls in Shanghai, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea scored higher than everyone else in the world, (4 of which are left out in the OP even though they are in the actual report), you simply cannot ask a question of "why are men better?".

It is ridiculous.
 
JoZd9Sv.png


ifteen-year-olds are in the middle of adolescence – a time when children start to claim their
independence from their parents and when social acceptance by one’s peers can have a powerful
influence on behaviour (Baumeister and Leary, 1995; Rubin, et al., 1998). Other students can
encourage and support their classmates in their drive to achieve; they can also undermine
students’ motivation (Ladd et al., 2012).

Around this time, too, gender differences in attitudes towards school and learning become
evident. These seem to be strongly related to how girls and boys have absorbed society’s notions
of “masculine” and “feminine” behaviour and pursuits as they were growing up. For example,
several research studies suggest that, for many boys, it is not acceptable to be seen to be interested
in school work. Boys adopt a concept of masculinity that includes a disregard for authority,
academic work and formal achievement. For these boys, academic achievement is not “cool”
(Salisbury et al., 1999). Although an individual boy may understand how important it is to study
and achieve at school, he will choose to do neither for fear of being excluded from the society
of his male classmates (Van Houtte, 2004). Indeed, some have suggested that boys’ motivation
at school dissipates from the age of eight onwards, and that by the age of 10 or 11, 40% of boys
belong to one of three groups: the “disaffected”, the “disappointed” and the “disappeared”.
Members of the latter group either drop out of the education system or are thrown out (Salisbury
et al., 1999). Meanwhile, studies show that girls seem to “allow” their female peers to work hard
at school, as long as they are also perceived as “cool” outside of school (Van Houtte, 2004).
Other studies suggest that girls get greater intrinsic satisfaction from doing well at school than
boys do (DiPrete and Buchmann, 2013).

And reflects what Pau's experience has been
One factor that may hold girls back is confidence in their own abilities in mathematics. Studies
show that the learning environment plays a significant role in fostering, or undermining, girls’
sense of self-confidence. Take this example: in one study, Asian-American girls performed better
on a mathematics assessment when they were told the reason for doing the test was to identify
ethnic differences in performance – because of the stereotype that Asians have higher quantitative
skills than other ethnic groups (Steen, 1987) – but worse when they were told that the reason they
were asked to take the assessment was to identify gender differences – because of the common
stereotype that women are inferior to men in quantitative skills (Aronson, 2002; Benbow, 1988;
Hedges and Nowell, 1995) – when compared with a control group that was not given any reason
for taking the assessment (Shih et al., 1999).

The same pattern is observed in students’ mathematics self-concept. Gender disparities in students’
mathematics self-concept closely mirror gender disparities in mathematics self-efficacy: 63% of
boys, but only 52% of girls, reported that they disagree that they are just not good at mathematics.
Conversely, across OECD countries, 30% of girls, but 45% of boys, reported that they understand
even the most difficult work in mathematics classes (Table 3.4a). Gender differences in mathematics
self-concept are particularly wide in Denmark, Germany, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Macao-China
and Switzerland, while no such gender differences can be observed in Albania, Kazakhstan and
Malaysia (Table 3.2b).

Gender differences in mathematics and science self-efficacy and self-concept remain large even
among students who perform at the same level in mathematics and science. Girls who perform
as well as boys reported much lower levels of mathematics and science self-efficacy and lower
levels of mathematics and science self-concept. These results are in line with previous empirical
estimates (Jacobs et al., 2002). On average across OECD countries, girls are over one-quarter of
a standard deviation lower on the self-beliefs indices than boys

mind you, I'm just skimming the report.
 
I did not discount the score. I said it shouldn't count as a country when I wanted to use Singapore as the best country.

But why are you insisting on the distinction? It doesn't matter as far as this report is concerned.

"You don't have to be so god damn pedantic. It's annoying."

Indeed.

Where the fuck did I say what I think about the report? The reports (yes there are multiple) are very nuanced and pointed out things like society factors and test anxiety as reasons for the discrepancy in the scores.

I never criticized the report. I criticized the OP for asking a loaded question and left out critical data that disproved his loaded question.

How any of this is relevant? When girls in Shanghai, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea scored higher than everyone else in the world, (4 of which are left out in the OP even though they are in the actual report), you simply cannot ask a question of "why are men better?".

It is ridiculous.

But the report does show that boys are on average better performing in maths in most of the world. It doesn't matter whether you insist on distinguishing between country, region, population size, or whatever, unless you can explain why. You criticized the OP for the way it was presented, but countered it with an equally sketchy premise. The report itself follows that reasoning and seeks to explain why that is and what might be done to improve the situation.
As long as the methodology for recording the information is consistent and sample sizes are representative, any other factor to explain what the data means needs to be explained. The report goes into some detail, and shows that on average boys do outperform girls in maths across the regions sourced - that in Singapore girls outperform the boys does not make this incorrect.

I feel we are going off on too much of a tangent, by all means reply but i'm not too bothered about continuing this argument.
 
But why are you insisting on the distinction? It doesn't matter as far as this report is concerned.

"You don't have to be so god damn pedantic. It's annoying."

Indeed.



But the report does show that boys are on average better performing in maths in most of the world. It doesn't matter whether you insist on distinguishing between country, region, population size, or whatever, unless you can explain why. You criticized the OP for the way it was presented, but countered it with an equally sketchy premise. The report itself follows that reasoning and seeks to explain why that is and what might be done to improve the situation.
As long as the methodology for recording the information is consistent and sample sizes are representative, any other factor to explain what the data means needs to be explained. The report goes into some detail, and shows that on average boys do outperform girls in maths across the regions sourced - that in Singapore girls outperform the boys does not make this incorrect.

I feel we are going off on too much of a tangent, by all means reply but i'm not too bothered about continuing this argument.

I didn't insist shit. I mentioned it in passing so people like you couldn't pick on me and point at Shanghai when I said "Singapore is the country with the highest score". Yet here we are.

If that's the genuine intention then the question should be "why are boys scoring higher than girls in standardized tests in some countries?".

Asking why are men better at math than women is already a loaded and biased question, even more so when the data is cherry picked.

If you don't get it then you don't get it. I am done wasting time with poster like you. #ignore
 
I didn't insist shit. I mentioned it in passing so people like you couldn't pick on me and point at Shanghai when I said "Singapore is the country with the highest score". Yet here we are.

But Singapore being high up in the list with girls performing better than boys doesn't matter much at all in isolation, nor does Shanghai being at the top with boys performing better than girls. And you have gone absolutely nowhere in explaining why it might. It totally misses the point of the report and the data collected as a whole.
No one is picking on you, i take issue with what you said as i genuinely can't see why it's relevant.
Boys are performing better on average, that is what the data shows and the report discusses.

"If you don't get it then you don't get it."
 
For my own anecdote:

Growing up I was told by people, usually my peers, sometimes older people, that math was hard. It was actually pretty easy for me, but somehow that sentiment stuck with me over the years. Algebra, geometry--it all came pretty easily to me, the logic made sense. Algebra 2 I started to slack a little. Our teacher wasn't great, and the whole class started to copy off of the valedictorian's homework, so I didn't practice as much. Still did okay on the tests. Precalculus was tougher. I understood most of the concepts if I actually tried, but finding encouragement to try was hard. Everyone had this mentality that the class was "too hard" and no one expected me to do well, not even my parents. So I sort of gave up and focused on other things.

I had the option of taking calculus my senior year, but didn't. It was optional and why the hell would I want to take a class that was "hard"? Nevermind that I willfully chose to take French 4, or that I chose to take English with one of the toughest teachers in the school. No one expected me to take calculus, and why should I? I was always seen as art-minded. People expected me go a creative route. It didn't matter that I could do math, because no one expected me to.

I got into this idea that I was bad at math. I was an artist, a creator--I didn't need math, and math didn't need me. It wasn't until midway through college taking a statistics course that I realized I had my attitude wrong. I wasn't bad at math. Hell, I'm faster at mental math sometimes than my engineer husband. I just didn't care about math. No one expected me to care about it, especially not myself, and I wasn't going to go out of my way to learn.

Now, four years out of college with an Arts and Technology degree I don't use, I kinda wish I had. Not because it would've gotten me a good job or anything, but because I could have proved to myself that I could do it, that math isn't "too hard" for me. I shouldn't have let people's expectations of what I should and should not be good at warp the way I viewed myself, but it's hard to go the challenging route when no one wants you to.
 
According to teachers that said such things to me: so that I would know what the reality was.
More female teachers told me I would amount to nothing in school, but somehow I don't think its part of a grand conspiracy to keep men down.
 
From a guys perspective with a healthy relationship I just think that women are better at endurance far more then men when it comes to multiple mental activities. Even stems from a social stand ppint in how women are better at empathizing ergo copy the another's emotional state. In this way since they are better at absorbing information, the more knowledge humanity discovers as a whole increases the greater the gap in intelligence between the average man and woman.

Men, and this is true for me, are not keen on absorbing but more so finding information. They are the risk takers. I generally do not tend to focus on established information but more so on discovering new information. And ince I find something to discover I pour everything I have into that discovery. My focus narrows down and all mental capacity will be used in finding the answer.

For instance in math class I would be able to discern the logical steps of how a formula will work quicker then the females in my group but once I found it I quickly move on. Where as females digest it and ingrain it. Come test time they score higher then me.

It is kinda sad in a way that I see myself more so as a consious tool which chooses its master. I am aimed by my partner to fix and discover things. Without someone to lend my talents I just don't have the drive to be better, but without me she can never reach her full potential. We both need each other but is that really love.

Jesus.... I am stupid sounding w/e thats how I feels and I will stick with it.
 
More female teachers told me I would amount to nothing in school, but somehow I don't think its part of a grand conspiracy to keep men down.
???

Did I say that this was part of a grand conspiracy to keep women down?

Also, what your teachers did was shitty.
 
I would be interested in China's stats because there are tons of women in STEM over there. China has serious gender issues of its own, but there seem to be fewer negative stereotypes associated with women in STEM over there. As a result, I would assume each sex performs approximately the same. It's largely a matter of socialization.
 
Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia

They show nearly identical scores between girls and boys.

Clearly girls' brains work better in low temperatures.
Blondes are smarter than brunettes.
Taller than average humans need math more than shorter humans to get the blood to circulate through the whole body.

Or maybe that's a really stupid thread title.
 
Congrats! That sounds awesome! You'd think a whole history of literature would be enough to show that men can write such things.

And a lot of it was stuff I heard when I was younger but I've mostly gotten past it.


It tended to be small things that added up over time.

Through out highschool our teachers would bring up statistics like this all the time, and they would try to push me to study more traditional feminine topics (like English). Only once did a teacher ever look at my math grades and exams scores and go: "Hey, you should consider doing this at a higher level." Otherwise if I expressed interest, I was told that math was really hard or asked how I could possibly be interested.

I was the top performaner in math for my year (although I tended to take classes with older students) but if any guy managed to get near my score he was a natural genius, while I just must have worked very hard. The same guys would constantly tell me that they were "naturally" better and when, as I previously mentioned, teachers would cite these kind of statistics, they felt vindicated and in discussions would say I was just an anomaly or that I compensated by studying more, as girls do. And the few times I slipped (like coming in second instead of first) it was: "Well, you know guys are better anyways..."

Fun times, highschool. I don't hear it at the university level except for like one or two questionable rants by teachers. And our math/stat department has a good ratio of female students.
That's bullshit Pau, I'm really sorry to hear that :( I'm not surprised at all though. Maths was my favourite subject in primary school but by the time I hit about 14 I started disengaging after copping similar crap.

Don't give up though ^^
 
The funniest thing is that the chart in the OP left out the highest performing countries.

I mention this in the OP.

Also , if you read the chart you posted , it also has regional levels.

I did not expect GAF to have such difficult to actually comment on the data without making this bizarre remarks about it.

This thread only shows why boys are so bad at reading.
 
I mention this in the OP.

Also , if you read the chart you posted , it also has regional levels.

I did not expect GAF to have such difficult to actually comment on the data without making this bizarre remarks about it.

This thread only shows why boys are so bad at reading.

you're coming of as really biased
read the paper.
 
You are not engaging with the literature. It's pretty well stated in the paper.

I know its well stated. I mention in the OP their reasoning. Chapter 3 of the gender equality on education is all about the question i posed. I just think their conclusions tend to be more descriptive than anything.

Please don't throw that biased stuff over me.
 
I know its well stated. I mention in the OP their reasoning. Chapter 3 of the gender equality on education is all about the question i posed. I just think their conclusions tend to be more descriptive than anything.

Please don't throw that biased stuff over me.

Then cross reference their literature with your own scholarly sources. They give very well detailed reasoning on how and why these behaviors are.
 
Women aren't as good at maths because they play more video games, according to that other study.

I could have sworn it was because teachers lied to us about needing to use math. So at least women figured that out sooner and know how to read better.
 
Then cross reference their literature with your own scholarly sources. They give very well detailed reasoning on how and why these behaviors are.

That's what i tried here. So i can read other people experiences. Mine mimic their results but , for instance , considering the example a girl gave in this thread , i never experience anything remotely similar to that.

Results from the PISA 2012 mathematics and problem-solving assessments and the PISA 2006science assessment suggest that girls’ performance tends to be better in areas where they are required to apply mathematics concepts, facts, procedures and reasoning, and to recognise scientific issues. However, girls appear to underperform considerably when they are required to think like scientists – meaning when they are asked to formulate problems mathematically,interpret phenomena scientifically and predict changes, solve interactive problems, or understand and solve problems where the way of solving the problem is not immediately obvious and the problem evolves over time

This sort of results bring a very bizarre differentiation in the skill.

What's the test on reading about? How well they understand the words or what?

4w97I5H.png
 
This. It's 100% our culture. Our brains are not different.

This. Holy got, there's many fMRI studies claiming otherwise and they are very flawed either to the low numbers or the reproducibility issues.\

That's what i tried here. So i can read other people experiences. Mine mimic their results but , for instance , considering the example a girl gave in this thread , i never experience anything remotely similar to that.



This sort of results bring a very bizarre differentiation in the skill.

you missed the subsequent discussion on that which I eluded to earlier.
The section you quoted contains many of the arguments you just ignore, self-confidence and bias issues.
You're also ignoring the end of the paper which focus on several policy issues.

The report also highlights that, in many countries, teachers’ use of cognitive-activation strategies
in mathematics classes is associated with better performance in the PISA mathematics test, and
that the use of such strategies may be particularly beneficial for girls. There is evidence on the role
of metacognitive pedagogies in acquiring strong problem-based mathematics skills (Mevarech
and Kramarski, 2014). This report suggests that certain methods of teaching mathematics can
help narrow the gender gap in performance. For example, PISA reveals that girls in Croatia,
Germany, Ireland, Italy, Korea, Poland and the Slovak Republic benefit the most when teachers
ask students questions that make them reflect on a given problem; give them problems that
require the students to think for an extended time; ask students to decide, on their own, on which
procedures to use to solve complex problems; present problems in different contexts so that
students know whether they have understood the concepts; help them learn from the mistakes
they have made; ask them to explain how they solved a problem; present problems that require
students to apply what they have learned in new contexts; and assign problems that can be
solved in different ways.

There is a social role which is very hard to quantify, that's what the report is getting at. This is dealing with social sciences, so it will always be vague. This one of the things the heavy engineering/technology force of STEM ignores.

While advancing STEM education appears to be a common objective in many countries, it
remains unclear what approach is best suited to promote STEM skills for economic growth.
Generally, proposals for reform of STEM education maintain that because STEM is so important,
every student should be given the best-quality STEM education (Atkinson and Mayo, 2010).
Greater exposure to these subjects, it is assumed, will prompt more young people to choose
STEM careers. But as this report makes clear, unless major efforts are devoted to helping students,
particularly girls, overcome their anxiety towards mathematics and their lack of confidence in
their own abilities in science and mathematics, then providing even the highest-quality STEM
education will do nothing to narrow the gender gap in STEM studies and careers. At the same
time, an “all STEM for some” approach, as argued by Atkinson and Mayo, that aims to provide
STEM education only to those students who are most interested in and capable of doing well
in STEM, runs the risk of reinforcing current gender inequalities and not tapping the vast skills
potential among high-achieving girls.
 
When I was in the math department to earn my Bachelor of Science in Mathematics, the math club was dominated by women. They were pretty brilliant, and my peers who didn't go on to earn teaching credentials all went on to a higher doctorate program.
 
I'm not ignoring anything A Fish Aficionado. No idea where you are coming from with that. I don't even have a stance about any of these subjects. Some of the vagueness of their reasoning is why i wanted to read other people opinions about it. If you read the chapter about the poor performance of boys , they quantify it very easily.
 
I'm not ignoring anything A Fish Aficionado. No idea where you are coming from with that. I , naturally , dont even have a stance about it. Some of the vagueness of their reason is why i wanted to read other people opinions about it. If you read the chapter about the poor performance of boys , they quantify it very easily.
You're only going to get anecdotal evidence in a message board.

From my experience their data follows closely with similar trends.
 
A lot of the birds I know run rings around me cos they work at the bottle. Day after day giving out change is bound to help you out, bet they could wire up a fusebox though!
 
It's cause I'm a genius and godlike at math so I keep the average up for the rest of the male population. Feel free to thank me.
 
I would like you to use this formula to calculate the size of my dick. You have 10 minutes. Begin.
Size and values n of Matrix (B)ij and vectors x and y, sets G and E, delta and T undefined.
This is a analytical equation with no variable "dick" in it. Unless you mean you have no dick :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom