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[Bungalow Bob]

Faith is exactly what it is, faith.

I can't offer a scientific explanation of why I have faith, or why I cry during prayer/praise. I just have faith.

Man, if I could make you guys feel the way I feel when I commune with God I could.

Some people who experience what you do just assume they're delusional. It's a shame that "delusional" has such negative connotations in our society even though such a huge percentage of the population is delusional.

 

[Venfayth]

Because they believe that most of the world suffers from mass delusion. How would you feel?

I'd love to believe that said atheists who wish to cure religious people of their ignorance are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts and their love for humanity, but I have as much trouble doing that as I do believing that most religious people are trying to convert atheists to their religion in the name of love or whatever they believe in. In other words, I'm convinced most ("most" is very important here, I know a lot of well-reasoned individuals who go against this mold, but I doubt they're the majority of people in existence) people have a contempt for their differences, and that is more a motivator for them than their actual beliefs.

 

[Korey]

Why are so many atheists dickheads who mind other people's business?

You don't find this question like....crazy ironic, at all?

i think what the op is asking for is something you can tell him that would distant a statement like this from common or garden schizophrenia.

this

 

[Kinitari]

This.

But one can validate their beliefs with their own experiences, it doesn't really work in a grand debate, but for their personal beliefs it's fine. Their beliefs could also be experimented or tested to see if it works (with said person). This empiricism is pretty important in some religions too(buddhism is one, while not really theistic does rely on one examining their beliefs) if I remember correctly..

I don't know that I'd call buddhist or any other religious group empiricists - in any definition of that word.

 

[Raonak]

Lack of critical thinking skills.

Lack of understanding of the scientific method and standards of rigor for evidence.

Desire to address the shortcomings of asserting a purely faith-based position and the resulting cognitive dissonance.

Desire to provide a stronger argument to more effectively proselytize.

/thread

 

[JGS]

Some people who experience what you do just assume they're delusional. It's a shame that "delusional" has such negative connotations in our society even though such a huge percentage of the population is delusional.

This is always what this boils down to. The one who does not understand makes up a set of irrational options based on that understanding. So to a person who lacks religious faith the majority of people on the planet can only be:

1. Delusional
2. Fraudulent
3. Crazy

It oftentimes doesn't even remotely dawn on them that the most logical answer is that a minority of people simply don't grasp what faith is.

"I don't understand faith, therefore it's wrong"

 

[Air]

I don't know that I'd call buddhist or any other religious group empiricists - in any definition of that word.

Empirical
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the concept in science. For other uses, see Empirical (disambiguation).

The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation or experimentation.[1] Empirical data are data produced by an experiment or observation.

From wiki. Note, I didn't mean in a scientific, rigorously tested by multiple groups of people way, but to observe or experiment. I recall a Buddhist text saying something to the degree of "see if it works" or something loosely on that. It's been a while.

EDIT: I'll say, experimenting and testing to see if it works for you, as opposed to if it works in general. Think putting on a pair of pants and finding one "just right."

 

[Dice]

Why does Bungalow Bob have to start shit with theists every few months? Also, why does he seem so bothered by something he doesn't believe in and doesn't really have to interact with? I've yet to hear an explanation as to why an athiest, for example, would have any more trouble staying distanced from people they know damn well aren't going to change to be like them as a racist/nationalist would from Mexican immigrants.

An example of an athiest who seems pretty cool-headed and at peace with the world he lives in despite his disagreements with others would be Monocle. Anybody can check his posts for themself and understand that it is more productive and far less annoying to engage opposing worldviews with this sort of attitude.

 

[Hylian7]

Lack of critical thinking skills.

Lack of understanding of the scientific method and standards of rigor for evidence.

Desire to address the shortcomings of asserting a purely faith-based position and the resulting cognitive dissonance.

Desire to provide a stronger argument to more effectively proselytize.

This pretty much.

I have trouble recognizing people without their normal avatars during real pic January.

 

[Aristion]

Why do so many religious people think they have a good reason for believing what they do? And also, why do they often claim that their own magical beliefs are more sophisticated than the magical beliefs of others? I've yet to hear an explanation as to why Christian beliefs, for example, are any more sophisticated than the belief in the Care Bears my sister had when she was 3.

An example of a belief that can be backed up is that it's impossible to know both where something is and how it's moving beyond a specific degree of accuracy. Anybody can check this for themself and then believe it based on reproducible first hand experience.

I'm not religious, but I'm a theist due to the philosophical arguments. Godel was the same way.

Because isn't that an intrinsic quality of faith?

Just as I have faith in the existence of other conscious minds or of the existence of the external world. I can't prove that I'm not a brain in a vat, but I have good reason to believe otherwise. Same applies with God. Call it "faith", but most of the human population (i.e. believers) would call it an argument.

 

[Pollux]

I can't back up my faith that's why its fucking faith. can we please stop these pointless bait threads by atheist's towards GAF-ers with belief in something?

This shit is getting ridiculous.

 

[The Albatross]

You don't find this question like....crazy ironic, at all?

In the past, sure. But, on the internet sites I'm on most regularly, they're pretty much all filled with dickhead atheists who preach to the choir about religious strawmen, and I never hear a peep from the religious folks. There's like that one Christianity thread here, that one Islam thread, and then ~20 threads a week of some antitheist or atheist complaining about what some other person believes. And usually the lone justification of it is because, one day, they heard about a door to door religious person, or maybe they'll link to an article about the crusades.

It is ironic, which is really a bad case for the atheists who make repeated threads like this one.

(and, just to clarify, nontheist, non-religious here)

Frankly, if the people who constant made and contributed to these threads were so sure of themselves and their own personal belief systems, then I don't think that they would need to bring it up so often. Just as the anti-theists will discredit every religious person or theistic person in the world as being delluded or suffering from psychosis (painting broad brushes) I suppose we should just deduce that the anti-theists must, then, suffer from self-confidence daddy issues.

 

[agrajag]

Evilore nailed it.

 

[Joel Was Right]

If you want to seriously ask a question about religion, then go either to the Religion Thread, Theism/Atheism thread, the Christian OT or Islam OT - all of which are good resources of information and members who are knowledgeable about their faiths and would be happy to answer your questions

 

[Zaptruder]

Faith is strongest when everything in the world and your guts are telling you you're wrong.

 

[.GqueB.]

I'm not a religious person but even I know you aren't required to back up your faith.

I have faith that Parks and Recreation will be hilarious forever. How would I prove that? Is such a thing even possible?

 

[crazy monkey]

haha op is really hurt by some religious guy or girl. Every single thread is about that with same point basically. Oh and Op I have faith that I have faith. Rolllll

 

[Uchip]

its why the idea should not be presented to someone until they are adult/of age enough to understand the lack of reasoning behind it

 

[speculawyer]

Because the "feel it".

 

[BocoDragon]

In the past, sure. But, where on the internet sites I'm on most regularly, they're pretty much all filled with dickhead atheists who preach to the choir about religious strawmen, and I never hear a peep from the religious folks. There's like that one Christianity thread here, that one Islam thread, and then ~20 threads a week of some antitheist or atheist complaining about what some other person believes.

It is ironic, which is really a bad case for the atheists who make repeated threads like this one.

(and, just to clarify, nontheist, non-religious here)

^ "Why I hate atheists.. But love atheism"

Needs to be a spoken word poem on YouTube.

 

[Air]

Beliefs can be wrong.



Galileo had this rad idea: If something in the Bible seems to contradict something we discover using science, your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. Too bad so many believers are still living in the early 17th century.

In a general sense, I pretty much agree with you.

 

[Korey]

In the past, sure. But, where on the internet sites I'm on most regularly, they're pretty much all filled with dickhead atheists who preach to the choir about religious strawmen, and I never hear a peep from the religious folks. There's like that one Christianity thread here, that one Islam thread, and then ~20 threads a week of some antitheist or atheist complaining about what some other person believes.

It is ironic, which is really a bad case for the atheists who make repeated threads like this one.

(and, just to clarify, nontheist, non-religious here)

I'm pretty sure this has something to do with the demographics of the internet and religious people. It's not that religious people are quieter, it's that there's less religious people on the internet. In real life, religious people dominate almost every part of our society. Let's get an atheist elected President first shall we? Oh wait, that won't be possible for another hundred years or so.

 

[Zaptruder]

Seriously though, it's because faith is a broken, broken, broken word in the english language. Maybe it's just a broken human concept.

You dudes and your unevidenced, no support beliefs are shit. For real. My beliefs which are at least based on some iota of possibility, aren't held with conviction - they get fucking tossed if evidence comes up to the contrary. That's not faith. So stop co-opting mundane examples of tenuous belief (i.e. I believe the sun will continue 'rising', or I believe I'll be able to sleep in my bed tonight) with the term faith... which is the kind of crazy ass belief that persists even when you've got a world of evidence bearing down and crushing it out of you.

 

[Atramental]

I can't back up my faith that's why its fucking faith. can we please stop these pointless bait threads by atheist's towards GAF-ers with belief in something?

This shit is getting ridiculous.

I too would like to see stricter enforcement against these bait threads.

We have the Atheism vs Theism thread for a reason folks.

 

[Kinitari]

Empirical
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the concept in science. For other uses, see Empirical (disambiguation).

The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation or experimentation.[1] Empirical data are data produced by an experiment or observation.

From wiki. Note, I didn't mean in a scientific, rigorously tested by multiple groups of people way, but to observe or experiment. I recall a Buddhist text saying something to the degree of "see if it works" or something loosely on that. It's been a while.

EDIT: I'll say, experimenting and testing to see if it works for you, as opposed to if it works in general. Think putting on a pair of pants and finding one "just right."

Eh, I won't really argue with that - it just feels like the word empiricism is being used for the sake of giving religious belief a bit more validity - "see if it makes sense to you" is so loosely associated with the fundamental idea and philosophy behind empirical-anything.

 

[Air]

I too would like to see stricter enforcement against these bait threads.

We have the Atheism vs Theism thread for a reason folks.

Better yet, they could actually read all the other threads that answer the same questions by a variety of different people.

Just sayin'.

Eh, I won't really argue with that - it just feels like the word empiricism is being used for the sake of giving religious belief a bit more validity - "see if it makes sense to you" is so loosely associated with the fundamental idea and philosophy behind empirical-anything.

I guess it can look at that on the surface, but I'd think it's been like that for a while, just some are not inclined to listen, so it's thrown by the way side. It's empiricism, just done differently.

 

[Pollux]

In the past, sure. But, on the internet sites I'm on most regularly, they're pretty much all filled with dickhead atheists who preach to the choir about religious strawmen, and I never hear a peep from the religious folks. There's like that one Christianity thread here, that one Islam thread, and then ~20 threads a week of some antitheist or atheist complaining about what some other person believes. And usually the lone justification of it is because, one day, they heard about a door to door religious person, or maybe they'll link to an article about the crusades.

It is ironic, which is really a bad case for the atheists who make repeated threads like this one.

(and, just to clarify, nontheist, non-religious here)

Frankly, if the people who constant made and contributed to these threads were so sure of themselves and their own personal belief systems, then I don't think that they would need to bring it up so often. Just as the anti-theists will discredit every religious person or theistic person in the world as being delluded or suffering from psychosis (painting broad brushes) I suppose we should just deduce that the anti-theists must, then, suffer from self-confidence daddy issues.

Great post.

Pope Benedict XVI has some good thoughts on this idea, of atheists being just as unsure as the believers...

Just as we have already recognized that the believer does not live immune to doubt but is always threatened by the plunge into the void, so now we can discern the entangled nature of human destinies and say that the nonbeliever does not lead a sealed-off, self-sufficient life, either. However vigorously he may assert that he is a pure positivist, who has long left behind him supernatural temptations and weaknesses and now accepts only what is immediately certain, he will never be free of the secret uncertainty about whether positivism really has the last word. Just as the believer is choked by the salt water of doubt constantly washed into his mouth by the ocean of uncertainty, so the nonbeliever is troubled by doubts about his unbelief, about the real totality of the world he has made up his mind to explain as a self-contained whole. He can never be absolutely certain of the autonomy of what he has seen and interpreted as a whole; he remains threatened by the question of whether belief is not after all the reality it claims to be. Just as the believer knows himself to be constantly threatened by unbelief, which he must experience as a continual temptation, so for the unbeliever faith remains a temptation and a threat to his apparently permanently closed world. In short, there is no escape from the dilemma of being a man. Anyone who makes up his mind to evade the uncertainty of belief will have to experience the uncertainty of unbelief, which can never finally eliminate for certain the possibility that belief may after all be the truth. It is not until belief is rejected that its unrejectability becomes evident.

An adherent of the Enlightenment [writes Buber], a very learned man, who had heard of the Rabbi of Berditchev, paid a visit to him in order to argue, as was his custom, with him, too, and to shatter his old-fashioned proofs of the truth of his faith. When he entered the Rabbi’s room, he found him walking up and down with a book in his hand, rapt in thought. The Rabbi paid no attention to the new arrival. Suddenly he stopped, looked at him fleetingly, and said, “But perhaps it is true after all.” The scholar tried in vain to collect himself—his knees trembled, so terrible was the Rabbi to behold and so terrible his simple utterance to hear. But Rabbi Levi Yitschak now turned to face him and spoke quite calmly: “My son, the great scholars of the Torah with whom you have argued wasted their words on you; as you departed you laughed at them. They were unable to lay God and his Kingdom on the table before you, and neither can I. But think, my son, perhaps it is true.” The exponent of the Enlightenment opposed him with all his strength; but this terrible “perhaps” that echoed back at him time after time broke his resistance.

Now, I'm not saying that a "perhaps" is going to happen to atheists and convert them into some kind of believers, but...perhaps it is true.

 

[JGS]

Atheism vs. Theism thread gets antagonistic. I wish there was a thread that simply answers questions about religion. Christianity Thread does a good job but it's about Christianity first not skepticism.

 

[The Albatross]

I'm pretty sure this has something to do with the demographics of the internet and religious people.

I'm sure it entirely has to do with that, but it doesn't change anything. Perhaps it's the nature of the internet, or perhaps the nature of the internet is because of that. It doesn't matter -- In my regular, day to day life, I never run into a zealous theist (and I work somewhere that is packed with religious people with strong personal convictions). Yet, in my regular, day to day life, I run into dozens of zealous anti-theists. I don't even want to credit them by calling them atheists, because while most of these anti-theists strive for the finer arts of math or science, they also pass wide-sweeping generalizations and pop-psychology analysis on entire swarths of people they've never met, studied, or interacted with in any important way. And beyond that, the number of people who criticize, say, Christians, or Jews, or Muslims, without having seriously studied Christianity, Judaism, or Islam beyond reading a few choice bible quotes or looking up an article on Wikipedia, astounds me. It's like, they're all calling for religious people around the world to adopt their strict scientific rigors, but would never think to apply the same thing to themselves.

Again, I don't even want to call them atheists, because I think it does a disservice to the fair minded atheist who simply doesn't care what somebody privately believes.

 

[Timedog]

They don't need a good reason for their faith, unless their beliefs are affecting others. People can believe whatever the fuck they want, I don't actually care until it has negative effects.

 

[cutmeamango]

At this pace, we'll soon discover where a circle starts.

 

[Korey]

Frankly, if the people who constant made and contributed to these threads were so sure of themselves and their own personal belief systems, then I don't think that they would need to bring it up so often. Just as the anti-theists will discredit every religious person or theistic person in the world as being delluded or suffering from psychosis (painting broad brushes) I suppose we should just deduce that the anti-theists must, then, suffer from self-confidence daddy issues.

Actually we're actively trying to convert theists into non-theists by pointing out how irrational their beliefs are, which will lead to a more secular society. You should join the Atheism vs Theism thread some time, plenty of people have been converted because of that thread

 

[THRILLH0]

OP's a known troll.

Hey bob, why didn't you just bump your last anti-religion bait thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424578

 

[Orayn]

Atheism vs. Theism thread gets antagonistic. I wish there was a thread that simply answers questions about religion. Christianity Thread does a good job but it's about Christianity first not skepticism.

A "Beliefs or Lack Thereof: Q&A" thread would be pretty cool. Maybe limit it strictly to questions and answer format to cut down on bickering.

 

[echoshifting]

Again, I don't even want to call them atheists, because I think it does a disservice to the fair minded atheist who simply doesn't care what somebody privately believes.

Karen Armstrong's The Case for God addresses this issue really well. She'd agree with you; she posits that radical atheism and fundamentalism are parallel reactions to our heavily damaged perception and experience of religion, and that both are equally destructive forces in modern society.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

Because most of the world suffers from mass delusion.

Fixed

 

[Zaptruder]

Now, I'm not saying that a "perhaps" is going to happen to atheists and convert them into some kind of believers, but...perhaps it is true.

You know what delusion I like to entertain in my mind from time to time?

You're all fucking NPCs in my game. I'm the one true fuckin' player in this crazy ass VR machine, and I'm supposed to do something... probably save the world from itself or something.

It's a bunch of horseshit of course. But perhaps. Just perhaps.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Lack of critical thinking skills.

Lack of understanding of the scientific method and standards of rigor for evidence.

Desire to address the shortcomings of asserting a purely faith-based position and the resulting cognitive dissonance.

Desire to provide a stronger argument to more effectively proselytize.

*Sighs*

 

[VGChampion]

I love how atheists always complain on the Internet about those with any type of faith. They always say how they're overwhelmed by the religious nuts when 1) I never see these nuts and 2) the technology / nerdier sites are almost always at least over half filled with non-religious people.

And it isn't just that. It's like atheists think they're smarter because they don't have a religion. The universe is vast. Good chance no one knows anything.

 

[Pollux]

A "Beliefs or Lack Thereof: Q&A" thread would be pretty cool. Maybe limit it strictly to questions and answer format to cut down on bickering.

I actually really like this idea...you should get on that. It would certainly help with civil discussion.

 

[Uchip]

Yet, in my regular, day to day life, I run into dozens of zealous anti-theists.

this sounds like complete bullshit
are you Bill Mahers accountant?

 

[Emitan]

You know what delusion I like to entertain in my mind from time to time?

You're all fucking NPCs in my game. I'm the one true fuckin' player in this crazy ass VR machine, and I'm supposed to do something... probably save the world from itself or something.

It's a bunch of horseshit of course. But perhaps. Just perhaps.

You need to talk to me 3 times before I give you my quest.

 

[planar1280]

Why do so many religious people think they have a good reason for believing what they do? And also, why do they often claim that their own magical beliefs are more sophisticated than the magical beliefs of others? I've yet to hear an explanation as to why Christian beliefs, for example, are any more sophisticated than the belief in the Care Bears my sister had when she was 3.

An example of a belief that can be backed up is that it's impossible to know both where something is and how it's moving beyond a specific degree of accuracy. Anybody can check this for themself and then believe it based on reproducible first hand experience.

Because Christian belief of modern times is based off of pagan religion or at least heavily influenced by it, thats why it is 'Magical' unlike Judasim and Islam which say a lot of it is metaphorical as well as a little bit of literal in terms of specific events.

 

[Air]

A "Beliefs or Lack Thereof: Q&A" thread would be pretty cool. Maybe limit it strictly to questions and answer format to cut down on bickering.

I feel like only atheists would ask questions, since the board leans more that way. That said, a F.A.Q. for belief, instead of a Q&A may be better, because after the general questions are asked, you can lead others to the topics that pertain to the specific questions.

 

[The Albatross]

Actually we're actively trying to convert theists into non-theists by pointing out how irrational their beliefs are, which will lead to a more secular society. You should join the Atheism vs Theism thread some time, plenty of people have been converted because of that thread

I am a non-theist, but I'm not looking to convert people to non-theism. I have a degree in Theology and while I'll generally get into it from time to time when the number of religion threads starts hitting my critical limit, I get so frustrated by the overall ignorance on the topic of theology and philosophy in strict religion/non-theism threads, that it really makes me lose my faith (colloquially speaking) in the value of so-called "secular" societies.

 

[Atramental]

A "Beliefs or Lack Thereof: Q&A" thread would be pretty cool. Maybe limit it strictly to questions and answer format to cut down on bickering.

I like this idea.

 

[Korey]

I love how atheists always complain on the Internet about those with any type of faith. They always say how they're overwhelmed by the religious nuts when 1) I never see these nuts and 2) the technology / nerdier sites are almost always at least over half filled with non-religious people.

And it isn't just that. It's like atheists think they're smarter because they don't have a religion. The universe is vast. Good chance no one knows anything.

Who do you think runs America? Religious people. Lots of them. They actually exist. Unlike God.

 

[MIMIC]

How is this a thread? A thread that a MOD has replied to?

 

[truly101]

George Michael? Lot of back ups in that video if I remember correctly

 

[Evolved1]

An example of an athiest who seems pretty cool-headed and at peace with the world he lives in despite his disagreements with others would be Monocle. Anybody can check his posts for themself and understand that it is more productive and far less annoying to engage opposing worldviews with this sort of attitude.

I always enjoy Monocle's posts... but he gets pretty salty sometimes.