Why do so many theists think they can back up their faith?

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So ghosts, UFOs, Sasquatch, the Jersey Devil and Jesus are off limits to science because they don't have any proof?

Things that seem supernatural have been debunked as natural thanks to science. Lighting, rain, floods, heat waves and desease have all been shown to have real explanations.

If you choose to believe certains religious beliefs are impossible to disprove with science, you are delusional. God can never be disproven or proven, you do have a point. All we can do is stack the odds.

Everything you said is physical, or should be. God himself is not physical, nor does he/she/it have to be.

Can you give an example? I don't even know what being 'open to argument' means. Atheists on this board love to argue, we're very open to arguments.

My example is in a lot of these threads if a religious dare enter he/she is immediately laughed off, ridiculed, and or jumped on by 17 different people for his/her beliefs, atheists not so much. Its supposedly the exact opposite in real life, which if it is for some, then I can understand your vitriol for theists. But for most it is just a circle jerk.
 
On a more serious note, know what I've never fully understood? Consciousness.

The feeling of, well, being. Inhabiting your body. Like, why am I me, and not that person over there? Why did I inhabit my body?

And why am I human? Why are YOU human? Why are you not a cell in your own body? After all, there are billions of individual cells in your body, and only one you. So why do you get to control you, and not one of your cells? I mean, there's a billions to one ratio here...

Or heck, why didn't you become one of the hundreds of trillions of bacteria in the ocean? That would have been far more likely, given random chance, than being the sole owner of a human body.

I think about these odds, and can only believe that we're here, inhabiting these bodies, because God put us here.
 
By 2nd question, do you mean this:

"And also, why do they often claim that their own magical beliefs are more sophisticated than the magical beliefs of others?"

Without prescribing to the individual beliefs of various religions, I think that I could explain why somebody considers their beliefs more sophisticated than somebody else's. I just wonder whether you'd really care to read a few possible answers? Personally, I don't think that you have any interest in somebody answering your question, just throwing out vapid insults in the guise of questions.
Ya, I'd like to read a few possible answers. And you're confusing me not sugarcoating things with me throwing out insults.
 
Everything you said is physical, or should be. God himself is not physical, nor does he/she/it have to be.

What if I told you we live in the Matrix.

Would you keep your open mind, and give this hypothethis as much crediblity as you do the God hypothethis?

If you don't, why not?
 
Let's drop the civility a notch!

Fair enough. So first post is a straw man or is it not? My posts are all straw men, great, wonderful. What about the first one that you replied to affirming? Or, is it only a straw man argument if it is in defense of some theists? Frankly, on a day to day basis, I don't experience the ignorant, asshole theist on this forum that are supposedly everywhere -- spreading their vitriolic, anti-education ignorance -- yet, on the otherhand, every day, we have posts from the ignorant, asshole atheist -- this thread is a great example of it.

But, to ask again -- I'm fully willing to accept that my post about my experience with Theists (which I never framed as anything but my experience) is building strawmen. Wouldn't you, though, admit that the first post is a strawman and, further, that you gave that strawman validity by affirming it with your post? (which I was, incidentally, replying to)

If you're a non-religious non-theist you're an atheist, as much as you don't like the word.

You're not the linguistics police, so I'll use whatever language I think is more accurate with agnostic, nontheist, and atheist. I'm generally going with the Chestertonian understanding of the atheist, which is tongue in cheek, that, as a non-theist or agnostic, if I die tomorrow, I'll die an atheist. But if I wake up tomorrow, then I continue to be a non-theist. I'll sometimes refer to myself, colloquially, as agnostic, but only casually... if I want to speak accurately about it, I'll call myself a nontheist. I think that agnosticism is inaccurate to how I see things. Doing that doesn't make me a "self-loathing atheist," quite the opposite, I'm a self-affirmed non-theist, and if there's any loathing, it's definitely external loathing, not of myself.

Thank God we can all think critically about this, right?
 
Religious threads on GAF are bottom of the barrell. I wish I would stop clicking on them and responding. Oh my me.... What have I done.
 
What if I told you we live in the Matrix.

Would you keep your open mind, and give this hypothethis as much crediblity as you do the God hypothethis?

If you don't, why not?

Yes, and I've thought about it numerous times since 1999.
 
It seems like you might have wanted this thread to yourself. Those are called blogs.




I'm not embellishing and would like to give other examples, but those would be too private. In terms of what you stated, yes I absolutely agree and am even more in favor of it than my own somewhat obscure argument. I find it a bit insulting when people try to push some sort of definitive logic to this world. No matter how robotic some of you try to be, you will never completely know it all, because if what you say is true, that human's are not the center of the universe and are meant to only observe and study the world around us, then we are not meant to understand it completely. Just let us enjoy and entertain ourselves with what we believe in until the day we day, because to me, the biggest secret is that our lives may in fact not matter at all, so why the fuck wouldn't we just do and think what we want?

I never quite understand this argument. Humans are animals, and like primates and other species of social animals, maintaining social acceptance both enhances our survival prospects, improves our quality of life, and gives us access to mates with whom to procreate and pass down our genes. There is no lasting self benefit to murder or other socially unacceptable behavior because it will lead to a reduction in quality of life once you're inevitably in jail or even if you remain a fugitive, since you will always be paranoid about being caught, and always feel remorse for your crimes. The exception would be psychopaths that can't feel empathy for other humans due to a biological problem in their brain, they do all sorts of bad stuff, but they also don't live very happy lives.

Every time I hear a religious person say "If you don't believe in God what's to stop you from being a murdering rapist?" I can't help but wonder if that person is a psychopath projecting their own desires on others.

Not believing in an afterlife gives the life we currently have far more meaning, and by remaining a law abiding citizen that contributes to society and staying accepted, you live a much better, longer, and happier life than you would as a violent criminal always looking over your shoulder. A great reason to live is to experience all life has to offer and the satisfaction of bringing new life into the world by having children to carry on once you're gone. This is very fulfilling, people don't need to make up magic sky men to have a fulfilling, meaningful life.
 
Can you give an example? I don't even know what being 'open to argument' means. Atheists on this board love to argue, we're very open to arguments.

Being dismissive and disrespectful. Different from forming a critical opinion of one's belief's. I've seen a lot of "you're insane, or this is dumb," posts, which doesn't really add anything to a conversation and just keeps it dead in the water. Later in the atheism v theism thread it turned into a conversation about debating etiquette because some posters couldn't handle themselves. It's really not uncommon in a debate on a forum (any debate for that matter).
 
Yes, I agree, I have moved on (and fitted him in my life accordingly to my beliefs). I just find it funny that people point to science to disprove god, when science can not do this. It does not deal with supernatural beings, nor should it ever.

Absolutely, I don't think this thread is intended to imply that it can.

But just as empirical evidence cannot disprove a supernatural being, it cannot be used to prove it, either.

And that's what this thread is about, to my understanding. Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand. I think many of the less antagonistic atheists feel this way; that is, that we're perfectly willing to let religious people be religious people, as long as they don't try to bring the supernatural in to the realm of the natural. As soon as you start citing things which can be empirically measured (e.g. the universe and earth were created in 7 days, the earth is 6000 years old, Adam and Eve were the first humans with no primate ancestry), then you've stepped in to the wrong domain with your religious convictions.
 
What if I told you we live in the Matrix.

Would you keep your open mind, and give this hypothethis as much crediblity as you do the God hypothethis?

If you don't, why not?

Yes I would, because I have no way to disprove that we are not. Unless I could mount some physical evidence to prove we are not, then I would never know for sure.
 
Being dismissive and disrespectful. Different from forming a critical opinion of one's belief's. I've seen a lot of you're insane, or this is dumb, which doesn't really add anything to a conversation and just keeps it dead in the water. Later in the atheism v theism thread it turned into a conversation about debating etiquette because some posters couldn't handle themselves. It's really not uncommon in a debate on a forum (any debate for that matter).

Poor argumentative skill isn't really exclusive to the atheists here - if that's what the point was. I've seen tons of religious folk make horrible horrible arguments - and a lot of the times, those are met with 'that's stupid' because... well they're just stupid. But I don't think it's nearly as bad as anyone says, at most - it gets a bit... personal, but that's it - and if it gets personal, hopefully mods step in.

Really though, maybe I don't understand what is being said - I would really appreciate a past example so I can better know what I am arguing against right now :p.

Absolutely, I don't think this thread is intended to imply that it can.

But just as empirical evidence cannot disprove a supernatural being, it cannot be used to prove it, either.

And that's what this thread is about, to my understanding. Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand. I think many of the less antagonistic atheists feel this way; that is, that we're perfectly willing to let religious people be religious people, as long as they don't try to bring the supernatural in to the realm of the natural. As soon as you start citing things which can be empirically measured (e.g. the universe and earth were created in 7 days, the earth is 6000 years old), then you've stepped in to the wrong domain with your religious convictions.

I sort of feel exhausted even making that concession, but yeah that's how I feel - and that's how a lot of people here feel. The issue is when the religious try to give their belief system validity outside of a personal faith system. That treks into the realm of my reality, and at that point I feel as though I am open to criticise you. The same way I would criticise anyone on this forum for believing something about reality I disagree with.
 
Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand.

and then theres this
creationist museum said:
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Absolutely, I don't think this thread is intended to imply that it can.

But just as empirical evidence cannot disprove a supernatural being, it cannot be used to prove it, either.

And that's what this thread is about, to my understanding. Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand. I think many of the less antagonistic atheists feel this way; that is, that we're perfectly willing to let religious people be religious people, as long as they don't try to bring the supernatural in to the realm of the natural.

I think "Scientific fact, or theory" or what have you may be a better term for this. I linked a wiki article to empiricism earlier in the thread, and there are religious sects that believe you should experiment or experience whatever it is they're teaching you for a truth value.

Poor argumentative skill isn't really exclusive to the atheists here - if that's what the point was. I've seen tons of religious folk make horrible horrible arguments - and a lot of the times, those are met with 'that's stupid' because... well they're just stupid. But I don't think it's nearly as bad as anyone says, at most - it gets a bit... personal, but that's it - and if it gets personal, hopefully mods step in.

Really though, maybe I don't understand what is being said - I would really appreciate a past example so I can better know what I am arguing against right now :p.

I agree it isn't exclusive to the atheists, but due to the number of atheists on the board, you're more likely to get that from that group. A horrible argument is a horrible argument, pointing that out as "that's so retarded" is different from stating "that's not logically consistent", especially in tone. One gives the person a chance to think about what they're saying, the other "retards" a debate.
 
Absolutely, I don't think this thread is intended to imply that it can.

But just as empirical evidence cannot disprove a supernatural being, it cannot be used to prove it, either.

And that's what this thread is about, to my understanding. Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand. I think many of the less antagonistic atheists feel this way; that is, that we're perfectly willing to let religious people be religious people, as long as they don't try to bring the supernatural in to the realm of the natural. As soon as you start citing things which can be empirically measured (e.g. the universe and earth were created in 7 days, the earth is 6000 years old), then you've stepped in to the wrong domain with your religious convictions.

Oh yes trying to prove God with empirical facts is a fools errand. Most believers try to bring in their miracle and or experience arguments, which just will not work. There is no empirical evidence that he/she/it exists. But there is none that disproves it either.
 
Not exactly. They can reasonably show that the genesis of the universe does not require supernatural mechanisms; that does not mean that supernatural mechanisms do not exist.

More importantly, atheists even being ascribed beliefs is also weird when you think about it. Atheism isn't a coherent group, there is no belief really under the label 'atheism' - it's a lack of belief. It can be a rejection of a belief system, ignorance to a belief system, or being unconvinced of a belief system. It doesn't matter as long as you don't adhere to the belief system (theism), you are atheist.
 
I feel like people like the OP and many atheists are bothered so much by other's beliefs because there remains a bit of fear in them. Perhaps it was fear of judgement that made them resort to the "I'll just refuse to believe in heaven/hell". It is then easy to point at how science attempts to explain the un-explainable (even if it can't always) and then claim to be in the side of reason.

The default position is NOT "something does not exist until proven." The default position is, we can't be certain if god exists or not. In fact, to answer the OP, Jesus himself defined true faith as believing without seeing. There is no need to back it up. With that said, people look for confirmation all the time.

For religious people, there is confirmation everywhere, and they can use these to back up their faith.

- Someone got their prayers answered and have many "blessings" in their life.
- Someone is going through hardship that makes the grow personally because they believe is what God wants from them
- Someone admires nature and believes it to be the work of God
- Someone looks at life and living systems, and believes only an intelligent being can make it happen

As there are many things unexplained, you can't rely on scientific theories to squash their beliefs. Sucks for you if you disagree, it's their faith against your faith that there is no God and nature can do it all.
 
Yes I would, because I have no way to disprove that we are not. Unless I could mount some physical evidence to prove we are not, then I would never know for sure.

That's a foolish position to take. That means you should equally consider the possibility that there is a pantheon of Care Bears lording over us non-corporeally, because you can't disprove it.

The only logical position is to only consider things that have evidence of existing, since there are infinite things that don't exist and have no evidence of existing that are all equally implausible and it makes no sense to give any of those things consideration.
 
Fair enough. So first post is a straw man or is it not?

No, it's not. Do you actually know what a straw man is? In a formal argument I'd ask for a [CITATION NEEDED] for "so many" religious people believing in this or that, but since he's talking informally about a non-specific percentage of religious people making assertions that I have plenty of personal anecdotes about, not a major concern. Poorly framed, sure.

I don't experience the ignorant, asshole theist on this forum that are supposedly everywhere -- spreading their vitriolic, anti-education ignorance -- yet, on the otherhand, every day, we have posts from the ignorant, asshole atheist -- this thread is a great example of it.

Don't read the news, then, concerning insipid intelligent design textbooks attempting to trojan horse their way into state education systems? Don't see politicians using biblical mandates to inform policy decisions? Hell, don't have Jehovah's Witnesses ringing the doorbell?
 
I feel like people like the OP and many atheists are bothered so much by other's beliefs because there remains a bit of fear in them. Perhaps it was fear of judgement that made them resort to the "I'll just refuse to believe in heaven/hell". It is then easy to point at how science attempts to explain the un-explainable (even if it can't always) and then claim to be in the side of reason.

The default position is NOT "something does not exist until proven." The default position is, we can't be certain if god exists or not. In fact, to answer the OP, Jesus himself defined true faith as believing without seeing. There is no need to back it up. With that said, people look for confirmation all the time.

For religious people, there is confirmation everywhere, and they can use these to back up their faith.

- Someone got their prayers answered and have many "blessings" in their life.
- Someone is going through hardship that makes the grow personally because they believe is what God wants from them
- Someone admires nature and believes it to be the work of God
- Someone looks at life and living systems, and believes only an intelligent being can make it happen


As there are many things unexplained, you can't rely on scientific theories to squash their beliefs. Sucks for you if you disagree, it's their faith against your faith that there is no God and nature can do it all.

You're just plain wrong about that, unless you also give equal credibility to the notion of a Pantheon of Godly Care Bears lording over us since it is equally impossible to disprove.



As for those "evidence is everywhere" arguments you made, none of those require a God to explain, and therefore inserting a God makes no sense unless you just irrationally already believe a God is micromanaging your life.
 
I feel like people like the OP and many atheists are bothered so much by other's beliefs because there remains a bit of fear in them. Perhaps it was fear of judgement that made them resort to the "I'll just refuse to believe in heaven/hell". It is then easy to point at how science attempts to explain the un-explainable (even if it can't always) and then claim to be in the side of reason.

The default position is NOT "something does not exist until proven." The default position is, we can't be certain if god exists or not. In fact, to answer the OP, Jesus himself defined true faith as believing without seeing. There is no need to back it up. With that said, people look for confirmation all the time.

For religious people, there is confirmation everywhere, and they can use these to back up their faith.

- Someone got their prayers answered and have many "blessings" in their life.
- Someone is going through hardship that makes the grow personally because they believe is what God wants from them
- Someone admires nature and believes it to be the work of God
- Someone looks at life and living systems, and believes only an intelligent being can make it happen

As there are many things unexplained, you can't rely on scientific theories to squash their beliefs. Sucks for you if you disagree, it's their faith against your faith that there is no God and nature can do it all.

You've opened yourself up to a can of worms I don't have the energy to respond to, but I will say this one thing - when you really don't believe, you're not really afraid of judgement - because you stop giving the moral system of whatever religion you are/were closest too any weight, all that matters is your own system of ethics.
 
Why are atheists so concerned with what theists do?

I can give a huge number of reasons.

1) I am interested in what everyone does. I want to understand the world, and religious convictions are an important part of the condition of the world, both historically and currently.

2) I honestly want to find God. While there may be some exceptions to this rule, many atheists would vastly prefer that a God exists -- a God which cares about us, provides an afterlife to the devout, and so forth. Instead, I believe I live on an unremarkable planet, adrift in a vast universe without any real purpose. I desperately want to believe in a God, but not simply because it's warmer and more convenient to do so.

3) Theists, in aggregate, have an extremely strong effect on the lives of atheists. The world has been shaped in enormous ways by religion (countless wars have been fought over religious conviction, cultural mores exist as a consequence of religion, etc), and so it's impossible to be an "individual atheist." I am not an island. Religious people affect me whether they intend to or not.
 
Yes I would, because I have no way to disprove that we are not. Unless I could mount some physical evidence to prove we are not, then I would never know for sure.

So then, we are at an impasse.

You both accept that there is a possibility that the Christian God may exist and the Matrix could be real.

Why not whip out some critical thinking tools, and clean up those ideas? Take the boldest course of action and take a definitive stance?

The Matrix was a movie from 2000 and it generally agreed upon we are not in a simulation. The scientific consensus would be "Although we could never be sure, we can say we are 99.9999% sure we don't live in the Matrix".
 
Absolutely, I don't think this thread is intended to imply that it can.

But just as empirical evidence cannot disprove a supernatural being, it cannot be used to prove it, either.

And that's what this thread is about, to my understanding. Theists who specifically try to defend their position based on empirical fact, which is of course a fool's errand. I think many of the less antagonistic atheists feel this way; that is, that we're perfectly willing to let religious people be religious people, as long as they don't try to bring the supernatural in to the realm of the natural. As soon as you start citing things which can be empirically measured (e.g. the universe and earth were created in 7 days, the earth is 6000 years old, Adam and Eve were the first humans with no primate ancestry), then you've stepped in to the wrong domain with your religious convictions.

This is far and away the best post in this thread. And among the better I've seen in any religion topic on gaf.
 
Not exactly. They can reasonably show that the genesis of the universe does not require supernatural mechanisms; that does not mean that supernatural mechanisms do not exist.

At the very best, (and I don't think we'll ever really be able to do it), we can push back the boundary of causality to show that everything in the universe is internally congruent and consistent without need of external unaccountable forces.

But it's simply outside our capacity to disprove something like a mirror universe that doesn't interact directly with ours, that is been recorded for the purpose of extracting our just prior to death personalities and minds for the purpose of an afterlife.
 
That's a foolish position to take. That means you should equally consider the possibility that there is a pantheon of Care Bears lording over us non-corporeally, because you can't disprove it.

The only logical position is to only consider things that have evidence of existing, since there are infinite things that don't exist and have no evidence of existing that are all equally implausible and it makes no sense to give any of those things consideration.

If I have no evidence, then there is no evidence. Plain and simple. I can not disprove something without direct evidence of which that I am trying to disprove.

If people want to believe in the care bears I have no problem with that. I dont care what anybody believes in as long as I am not directly affected by it.
 
More importantly, atheists even being ascribed beliefs is also weird when you think about it. Atheism isn't a coherent group, there is no belief really under the label 'atheism' - it's a lack of belief. It can be a rejection of a belief system, ignorance to a belief system, or being unconvinced of a belief system. It doesn't matter as long as you don't adhere to the belief system (theism), you are atheist.

I still don't really buy this. I get why it's such a hot button topic for people, but it suggests a total void of interest or concern for religious issues which clearly isn't the case. Atheists are quick to anger or to disparage in threads such as these...why, then, if you have zero investment? Why do threads like this keep popping up?

I don't think it's possible to live life in a state of total lack of religious belief. It's a conscious decision often involving a great deal of deep thought and it can be emotionally involving. That isn't a "lack of" something, to me.

Furthermore, if we're grouping together every single religion with a wide spectrum of beliefs under the label "theists," I think it's probably okay to examine atheists as a group, coherent or no.

2) I honestly want to find God. While there may be some exceptions to this rule, many atheists would vastly prefer that a God exists -- a God which cares about us, provides an afterlife to the devout, and so forth. Instead, I believe I live on an unremarkable planet, adrift in a vast universe without any real purpose. I desperately want to believe in a God, but not simply because it's warmer and more convenient to do so.

Tag quote is unavoidable, let's get it out of the way
 
If I have no evidence, then there is no evidence. Plain and simple. I can not disprove something without direct evidence of which that I am trying to disprove.

If people want to believe in the care bears I have no problem with that. I dont care what anybody believes in as long as I am not directly affected by it.

Would you date a girl who believed the care bears were real, but didn't talk about it much and didn't let it effect her every day life with you? Serious question, I'm weirdly curious.
 
Ya, I'd like to read a few possible answers. And you're confusing me not sugarcoating things with me throwing out insults.

So to answer question #2, some mystery that alludes you:

"And also, why do they often claim that their own magical beliefs are more sophisticated than the magical beliefs of others?"

First and most importantly, is basic human psychology and sociology. The same thing that drives you to wear clothes to work or to speak in cogent sentences instead of using random symbols that only have meaning to you: There is an inherent trust in things that are your own, whether they're your own style of clothes, your own use of language, or your own belief (or non belief) in religion. In other words, regardless of what your belief is (even if it is non belief), you presume that you are correct. This could also be the foundation of law, civil society, and so on, a general assumption of those participating in being correct, versus say, chaotic madness, and even then, if you prescribe to madness, then you probably also believe that it's correct.

But, beyond psychology and sociology, which I think play a far stronger role, is internal consistency. This is something that is sometimes lost on the insult atheist, but most mainstream religions in the world have fairly strong internal consistency, that is, that ideas, philosophies, behaviors, theologies, and practices are fairly consistent with one another internally. Now, I am not particularly religious, but I've got a fairly strong theological understanding of Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam; I say Catholicism more so than Christianity because I simply haven't studied most Protestant Christianity beyond the basic history and basic beliefs, and even then, my experience with most denominations of protestantism are in how they are different from Catholicism or Orthodoxy, not so much in their internal philosophical machinations. Generally, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam have rich historical traditions and deep histories of philosophy tied into them, all three grew during profound periods of philosophy in their respective cultures, and they tied in various elements of secular philosophy along the way, strengthening them. This isn't necessarily a detriment to newer faiths (even newer protestant faiths, many of which are still hundreds and hundreds of years old; and to some its even an asset), but through through thousands of years of development, those three religions are able to generally 'boot out' heresies that would make them internally inconsistent. So, while, your sister's care bear religion may look very convincing to both you and your sister, it probably lacks the rich historical tradition that develops it into an internally consistent world view. For instance, if your sister is the apex of the Care Bear Religion, the head of the church, you might be able to trip her up on a consistent care bear philosophy rather quickly (within one or two questions), but you wouldn't be able to do so with, say, Cardinal Ratzinger.

So, to answer question 2, I'd say it's both human psychology and internal consistency.
 
I don't think it's possible to live life in a state of total lack of religious belief. It's a conscious decision often involving a great deal of deep thought and it can be emotionally involving. That isn't a "lack of" something, to me.

???
 
I feel like people like the OP and many atheists are bothered so much by other's beliefs because there remains a bit of fear in them. Perhaps it was fear of judgement that made them resort to the "I'll just refuse to believe in heaven/hell". It is then easy to point at how science attempts to explain the un-explainable (even if it can't always) and then claim to be in the side of reason.

The default position is NOT "something does not exist until proven." The default position is, we can't be certain if god exists or not. In fact, to answer the OP, Jesus himself defined true faith as believing without seeing. There is no need to back it up. With that said, people look for confirmation all the time.

For religious people, there is confirmation everywhere, and they can use these to back up their faith.

- Someone got their prayers answered and have many "blessings" in their life.
- Someone is going through hardship that makes the grow personally because they believe is what God wants from them
- Someone admires nature and believes it to be the work of God
- Someone looks at life and living systems, and believes only an intelligent being can make it happen

As there are many things unexplained, you can't rely on scientific theories to squash their beliefs. Sucks for you if you disagree, it's their faith against your faith that there is no God and nature can do it all.

It's kind of weird/funny to read posts like this. I was saying the exact same things not that long ago, but now I have no religious faith at all.


A combination of critical thinking and learning what modern science can tell us about the universe. At that point religious faith seemed absurd to me. Once you've lost your faith like I did, there is no going back. For believers reading this, it would be like someone trying to convince you right now that Santa Claus actually exists. Imagine what you'd think if you heard someone say that to you right now. Well, that is how I feel when someone tells me they know God is real.
 
2) I honestly want to find God. While there may be some exceptions to this rule, many atheists would vastly prefer that a God exists -- a God which cares about us, provides an afterlife to the devout, and so forth. Instead, I believe I live on an unremarkable planet, adrift in a vast universe without any real purpose. I desperately want to believe in a God, but I also don't want to believe in a God simply because it's convenient to do so.

Hmm. I used to think this way. But I've recently started to feel comfortable about the nature of life without god.

Sure, it's brutal, uncertain and the only one we get... but there's a certain degree of comfort in knowing/thinking that the only consequence of living life... is in living life. However my life turns out, in the long run, it will leave no indelible, ever lasting mark - even should I become an immortal galactic conqueror of galaxies, however improbable that may be.
 
So then, we are at an impasse.

You both accept that there is a possibility that the Christian God may exist and the Matrix could be real.

Why not whip out some critical thinking tools, and clean up those ideas? Take the boldest course of action and take a definitive stance?

The Matrix was a movie from 2000 and it generally agreed upon we are not in a simulation. The scientific consensus would be "Although we could never be sure, we can say we are 99.9999% sure we don't live in the Matrix".

How does the christian god have anything to do with the matrix? I am not seeing how either has anything to do with each other. also when did I ever say I believed in the christian outlook on god? If I did say this then I apologize as that is not my view on god at all. I have defended a thiest view, which I have, but not only am I talking about christians when I say the stuff I say, nor do I ever mean to.

Also to be open minded could be argued to be the best critical thinking skill. I have no clue why you are (from my eyes) implying that having an open mind is not good.


Would you date a girl who believed the care bears were real, but didn't talk about it much and didn't let it effect her every day life with you? Serious question, I'm weirdly curious.

Is she cute (obviously subjective) and respectable? If so, yes I would. Why should I have the power to judge her for something she believes in? As long as she isn't murdering innocents and trying to convert me I have no problem.
 
I still don't really buy this. I get why it's such a hot button topic for people, but it suggests a total void of interest or concern for religious issues which clearly isn't the case. Atheists are quick to anger or to disparage in threads such as these...why, then, if you have zero investment? Why do threads like this keep popping up?

I don't think it's possible to live life in a state of total lack of religious belief. It's a conscious decision often involving a great deal of deep thought and it can be emotionally involving. That isn't a "lack of" something, to me.

Furthermore, if we're grouping together every single religion with a wide spectrum of beliefs under the label "theists," I think it's probably okay to examine atheists as a group, coherent or no.

You can be atheist, and have opinions that are anti-theist, or anti-faith, or anti-whatever. Sometimes people who are all atheist group together and decide on particular ideologies that they wish to embody and follow - but that isn't an aspect of atheism, but of something agreed to after the fact.

Why wouldn't it be possible to live in a state with a total lack of religious belief? If someone was raised from childhood having all their questions answered empirically, and in their living arrangement, no one else had the opportunity to bring up god to this child - would they believe in a God?

Theists all have an active belief that is common - they believe in Deities. Grouping together atheists is like grouping together people who don't have mugs in their household.
 
I feel like people like the OP and many atheists are bothered so much by other's beliefs because there remains a bit of fear in them. Perhaps it was fear of judgement that made them resort to the "I'll just refuse to believe in heaven/hell". It is then easy to point at how science attempts to explain the un-explainable (even if it can't always) and then claim to be in the side of reason.

The default position is NOT "something does not exist until proven." The default position is, we can't be certain if god exists or not. In fact, to answer the OP, Jesus himself defined true faith as believing without seeing. There is no need to back it up. With that said, people look for confirmation all the time.

Is that your default position for everything that doesn't exist? There's an infinite number of things we have zero evidence for that don't exist.

For example, a unicorn living in the core of Jupiter. What's your "default position" on that? Would you dedicate your life to worshiping it if someone wrote an ancient book about it?
 
I still don't really buy this. I get why it's such a hot button topic for people, but it suggests a total void of interest or concern for religious issues which clearly isn't the case. Atheists are quick to anger or to disparage in threads such as these...why, then, if you have zero investment? Why do threads like this keep popping up?

I don't think it's possible to live life in a state of total lack of religious belief. It's a conscious decision often involving a great deal of deep thought and it can be emotionally involving. That isn't a "lack of" something, to me.

Furthermore, if we're grouping together every single religion with a wide spectrum of beliefs under the label "theists," I think it's probably okay to examine atheists as a group, coherent or no.



Tag quote is unavoidable, let's get it out of the way

That is factually wrong. People aren't born with a belief in God. They are taught it. Just like if you were born in Egypt 4000 years ago you would believe in Ra, Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc. Go back far enough, and there was a time when people believed in no gods of any kind. You only have religion in your life because you were taught it and surrounded by it.
 
The wording "many" or "most" in these kinds of questions....

How "many"? If you are talking about "many" or "most", do you imply that a very large majority of theists are doing it? Where? In GAF? Or in the world in general?

If it's in GAF, then how many posters do you see doing that? Ten? Twenty? Is that ten and twenty really are representative to all the theists out there in the world?

That is factually wrong. People aren't born with a belief in God. They are taught it. Just like if you were born in Egypt 4000 years ago you would believe in Ra, Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc. Go back far enough, and there was a time when people believed in no gods of any kind. You only have religion in your life because you were taught it and surrounded by it.

It will be interesting, although of course not humane at all, if there is actually someone out there doing an experiment like this: a baby that is just born, locked inside an isolated environment with no contact with human at all. Perhaps all of his/her needs taken care with robots or something, who are there simply to sustain his/her life and nothing more. Perhaps the robots can teach him/her how to talk and function as well, and that is it.

I wonder, given enough time, what would that person's answer think of the concept "God" once he or she is released from his/her isolated environment?
 
I'm going to repost something I posted in "Atheism vs Theism" that addresses my thoughts on "science can't disprove God, so therefore he's possible"

Imagine two worlds, each following two schools of thought. The one world is primarily based in negativity, the other in positivity. I'm going to use the term "weight" a lot, in this context weight means "plausibility of being accurate for modelling reality"

On the negative world every claim starts off with no weight behind it until evidence is accumulated that gives it weight compared to other claims. Although it can gain weight through positive evidence, its still open to being reduced to no weight again if it is found to contradict a new piece of evidence about reality. In this world observations of reality trump hypothetical claims.

On the positive world all claims start out with equal and total weight behind them until negative evidence is presented that makes it less likely. This world cannot function. Every phenomenon has an infinite number of possible causes. If every one of those causes is treated as accurate until proven otherwise then it becomes impossible for us to produce any meaningful model of the universe.

This is why so many of us work from the standpoint that the claim of God carries no weight until evidence is presented to the otherwise. Because there is no evidence for God and there is also no evidence for an infinity of other claims, and so all of those claims reside on the bottom tier of plausibility.

Basically yes, God's existence is possible, but there are other claims about reality that have more evidence to support them, and so they are more likely accurate.
 
Why wouldn't it be possible to live in a state with a total lack of religious belief? If someone was raised from childhood having all their questions answered empirically, and in their living arrangement, no one else had the opportunity to bring up god to this child - would they believe in a God?

In that case, no, but I'd say that's a rare case. Even if the parents aren't interested, there are other sources. This is something I struggle with in my own life. I don't press any kind of spiritual philosophy or theology on my daughter. Ever. It is up to her, when she reaches adolescence, to decide what belief system she wishes to identify with. She has not been baptized and won't be unless she chooses that.

But I'll tell ya, she comes home all the fucking time from my parents' or my in-laws' talking about Jesus and God. I have spoken to them about it and we've reached a compromise of sorts, allowing them to share certain limited material as long as all theological questions are redirected to us (i.e. me as my wife is an extremely apathetic atheist). It still bothers me, though. It would be very difficult to avoid entirely without cutting all of her grandparents out of her life, which is practically impossible for us because of my disability.
 
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