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[cinnamonandgravy]

traditionally, higher frames = looks smoother + feels better
FG = looks smoother + feels worse

but if they can get the latency down, itll probably be pretty damn successful
like if you get native 120fps, but your display can do 240fps and FG only adds a little latency... gimme that 240boyyy.

 

[bender]

Keep your fake frames and fake resolutions and shove it, humans.

 

[MMaRsu]

If you're the type of gamer who pushes gaming on a high end rig and notices every frame, then you can notice DLSS and Frame Gen almost immediately - i dont see how you don't tbh. If you can tolerate either of those then you can tolerate console. Game native brothers

If you're a gaming tourist that has money to just plough into an expensive gaming rig but are just the type to open settings, max out what you can then play but not really see the difference between high and medium settings then yeah these things allow you to still psuh max settings and you'll feel OK using framegen and dlss etc.

At least on pc you have a choice. On console it's kind of imposed and likely will be forever forward now.

DLSS looks better than native so....

 

[Guilty_AI]

 

[bender]

DLSS looks better than native so....

 

[RoboFu]

It's the post op transvestite of frames... looks real but something feels off when playing with it.

 

[Ainem Enamas]

I think almost only PCMR does this

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

Personally the visual artifacts it creates are a distraction and I think provides an inferior result in the games I have played.
I play games on all platforms and my pc rigs are very high end, so I don't use it when I do not have to use it (see something like Wukong for an example)

I understand why this tech is a massive game changer and I hope they continue to push that bar forward.
Companies see the need to push the visual envelope but also understand the vast majority of players cannot afford the hardware required to make their games look like the marketing material that is presented.

It is a necessary evil created by unrealistic expectations I guess is what I am saying.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

This trend towards absolute shit visual quality and responsiveness has been a slow, ~2 decades long decline, but it's still sad to see the acceptance of it or people not even realizing how bad it's gotten.

I'd gladly shell out much more for a console if it kept us out this image quality ghetto, but the PS5 Pro is basically proof that we're never going to get that.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

A good chunk of PS5 games use it like Ratchet and Clank Rift apart, Spider Man 2, Black myth wukong etc. it’s usually used in the performance/rt modes or performance modes. I mean if the game runs smoother what’s the big deal using the technology. I would rather have so called fake frames then it running trash.

Running the game without framegen ALWAYS looks and feels better if the base frame rate is 60-70fps or more.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

It’s just not as good as actual frames.

 

[Crayon]

It's not a bad thing. Just not always useful, either. You have to be in this situation where you want the frame counter to run higher but don't care if the game actually runs faster.

 

[T4keD0wN]

How i imagine an average frame gen hater: Thinks it adds a lot of latency because memes saids so and blames their loses in Fortnite or Call of Duty on the added latency instead of their Nicki Minaj skins which make them easier to spot by other players.

In reality FG adds 15-20% for nearly doubling the framerate when enabled with reflex 1. Its an amazing trade-off if you start at an already high enough framerate.

 

[Bieren]

It's the same as Dark Souls players that get pissed at the remakes or when you use a controller and not a stick on string. Or sit in a chair instead of on nails. It's people picking ridiculous battles.

 

[ReyBrujo]

My guess is that since DLSS is not considered when building games, thus it generates input lag when you are already targeting a determined fps. If it was considered they would program the game for 20fps, let DLSS build around the extra 40 frames and use the extra CPU for processing and logic.

 

[Schmendrick]

My guess is that since DLSS is not considered when building games, thus it generates input lag when you are already targeting a determined fps. If it was considered they would program the game for 20fps, let DLSS build around the extra 40 frames and use the extra CPU for processing and logic.

 

[Hugare]

As someone who was extremely impressed with DLSS FG in Cyberpunk, literally my only issue with "fake frames" is the added input lag. It's noticeable enough for me to never enable FG, even though visually speaking I think the DLSS implementation is visually seamless.

Giving up on doubling the visual fluidity for +10ms or so in input lag is wild.

Yes, its noticeable, but so is 60 frames against 120 or more.

Imo, frame generation is a blessing. When not playing multiplayer, I always turn it on.

 

[Tams]

They're fake.

 

[Snake00]

The reason why people care about frame rates in games is because games are an interactive medium. More frames means that the game is more responsive. Frame gen does nothing to the games responsiveness and is therefore useless. Just like a 120fps movie would be.

 

[RSLAEV]

I'm fine with it, just don't compare one card's ability to generate AI frames with another card's ability to generate real frames through raw power. I think that's disingenuous.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

Graphics whores will never be satisfied, because they have real life as a reference point.

Art direction is where it's at.

 

[CrustyBritches]

The issue is that nvidia is trying to sell it like actual frames.

 

[Diddy X]

The few times I tried it was a mess, that's why.

 

[CLW]

Because

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Not in all cases you can always turn the settings down a bit to improve the artifacts.

uhhh no. thats not how frame generation works.

 

[FalconPunch]

DLSS, FSR or LS? I'm not into FG myself, but I find the DLSS solution visually spotless.

Go to an optometrist because it's not visually spotless at all. Not even close.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I think FSR has frame gen built in. I have no idea if it's toggleable on the consoles. Do games allow you to turn it on/off?

I think you need to actually get educated. If you think that, you have it dead wrong. Frame gen and FSR/DLSS are two different things and have to be separately toggled in the game menu.

 

[MMaRsu]

Yes it does, ask DF

 

[FalconPunch]

DLSS looks better than native so....

I don't blame you, I truly blame DF for this nonsense. They're the ones who started this crap when Nvidia gave them early access to the 3080 and 3090's. Once they started glazing because they received free 3080's and 3090's, people stopped trusting their eyes and parroting the phrase like a robot. DLSS is not better than native. It's better than native with TAA sometimes in certain aspects. DLSS compared to Native with no TAA looks inferior in everything but aliasing. DLSS ghosts, blurs textures, has artifacts, etc.


Unsurprisingly, since they received the free graphics cards, the glazing hasn't stopped. They did so for the 4000 series and are now doing the same for the 5000 series all so they can receive free products. Sad really.

 

[bender]

Yes it does, ask DF

I don't blame you

 

[yogaflame]

Frame gen is very helpful, which I hope PSSR ML of Ps5 will learn asap. But it is still a good practice for developers to fully optimize the game especially the frame rate. If its fully optimize, ML will not have to much constraint, and frame gen will work much better.

 

[rofif]

Most console gamers (including myself) don't know what the fuck that is, and wouldn't care. I hate it that PC plebs have invaded the discussion and turned it to spec talk *spits* instead of game play talk.

lol it’s not rocket science.
I don’t mind it because I don’t mind 30 and 60fps too. But devs will use this as a crutch and not bonus. Like upscale.
If you run it at 60fps game, it’s not free. It will result in input lag of like 55fps game with visuals feeling like twice that.
But also it’s more artifacting and it doubles stutter too if it happens.
It’s like salt. You as to much to the soup and then you cheat yourself that it’s better this way

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Giving up on doubling the visual fluidity for +10ms or so in input lag is wild.

I even use a controller - where FG input delay arguably feels more forgiving and acceptable. But I can still feel the difference as opposed to just outputting to a native locked at 60fps instead. I just prefer it, especially since a really solid post-processing pipeline can in itself greatly enhance the sense of 'visual fluidity', even at sub 90 frames.

I'm not dead against frame gen as a concept or a solution, not at all. Indeed, I'm keen to see what improvements the new Reflex technology brings to the table, because if this update can shave those 10+ms off then I can't see why FG could be anything other than a net benefit.

 

[MMaRsu]

If you want to stay ignorant on how dlss provides a cleaner image than native then I'm not going to bother supplying the evidence lmao.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose, have fun with the worse IQ

 

[bender]

If you want to stay ignorant on how dlss provides a cleaner image than native then I'm not going to bother supplying the evidence lmao.

Ignorance is bliss

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Go to an optometrist because it's not visually spotless at all. Not even close.

Interesting. What visual anomalies or artifacts can you show me in Cyberpunk with DLSS FG on one of the high bracket cards? I'm happy to be shown something in a vid.

 

[Quixz]

Frame Generation has given rise to terrible optimisation.

This was discussed a few months ago - Monster Hunter Wilds system requirements below.

I cant imagine how bad things will get in 5 years.

• Recommended:
  • Requires a 64-bit processor and operating system
  • OS: Windows®10 (64-bit Required)
  • Processor: Intel® Core™ i5-11600K or Intel® Core™ i5-12400 or AMD Ryzen™ 5 3600X or AMD Ryzen™ 5 5500
  • Memory: 16 GB RAM
  • Graphics: NVIDIA® GeForce® RTX 2070 Super(VRAM 8GB) or NVIDIA® GeForce® RTX 4060(VRAM 8GB) or　AMD Radeon™ RX 6700XT(VRAM 12GB)
  • DirectX: Version 12
  • Network: Broadband Internet connection
  • Storage: 140 GB available space
  • Additional Notes: SSD required. This game is expected to run at 1080p / 60 fps (with Frame Generation enabled) under the "Medium" graphics setting. DirectStorage supported.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I think you need to actually get educated. If you think that, you have it dead wrong. Frame gen and FSR/DLSS are two different things and have to be separately toggled in the game menu.

I’m indeed confused. I thought FSR included both upscaling and frame gen.
I can select the options on my PC. I can turn it on or off. Is it incorrect to call it FSR framegen as opposed to DLSS framegen?
What I don’t know is if it can be turned on or off in console. (I currently don’t have any of this gen consoles)

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Input lag

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I’m indeed confused. I thought FSR included both upscaling and frame gen.
I can select the options on my PC. I can turn it on or off. Is it incorrect to call it FSR framegen as opposed to DLSS framegen?
What I don’t know is if it can be turned on or off in console. (I currently don’t have any of this gen consoles)

No. They're separate things. You can have DLSS without frame gen and vice versa.

 

[Magic Carpet]

No. They're separate things. You can have DLSS without frame gen and vice versa.

I think I see the confusion now, When I said FSR has framegen built in I meant FSR comes with framegen as an option.
Yes, it's possible to even mix and match them on PC. DLSS upscaling with FSR frame Gen.
But what about console? Can you turn off the framegen in options on console? Or is it game specific?

 

[Fafalada]

I mean if the game runs smoother what’s the big deal using the technology.

It looks smoother, it doesn't run smoother.
Depending on the game - effect of the latter can range from 'fine' to 'borderline unplayable' (also because current vendor based frame-gen breaks framepacing to hell - so it only really useably works with VRR).

That aside - it's not all bad - especially if a game is designed for it to begin with. Like in PS360 gen - there were a few games that used interpolated frames to reach 60fps, and noone ever had any idea it was happening(people still don't know about it to this day). But that's also because gameplay was latency tolerant to begin with, and unlike modern variants, they had perfect framepacing and didn't introduce any visual degradation.

 

[FalconPunch]

Interesting. What visual anomalies or artifacts can you show me in Cyberpunk with DLSS FG on one of the high bracket cards? I'm happy to be shown something in a vid.

Go watch DF's video on the new DLSS. They show what DLSS4 has fixed when compared to DLSS3.x using cyberpunk as an example. The artifacts are very easy to see so the fact that you don't see it probably means you don't know what to look out for.

 

[Itchy Tickles]

I quite like it and DLSS. Sure, there can be the odd funky image or rare flickering, but usually in motion, it's not something that catches my eye.

I only have an issue with it when developers are either too lazy or not skilled enough (or both) to optimize their games and use it as a crutch (I am not as strict when it comes to independent teams or single person games etc)

Was the same when the Internet became standard in homes, developers eventually started releasing broken games because they could send an update out at any time along with the copy past apology, that they all seem to use. I
t also let's them avoid recalls of physical media, which costs them more, so basically, we pay for it instead, and they still want to charge us more for a poorer quality product.

 

[fart town usa]

Lord help me if I go to OPs house and he's got that true motion shite activated on his TV.

 

[Shifty1897]

I feel its one of those things people just bitch about.

Yes, there are a lot of little random subjective things that gamers bitch about, and you should learn to ignore most of that. yup... gamers are petty like that.

Eg.

Game A releases with a native input lag of 80ms. Everyone plays the game, its fine, no one complains.

Game B releases with a native input lag of 30ms, then tacks on FG and becomes 65ms. Gamers goes up in arms and start calling for heads.

The funny thing is, that Game B still has a better response feel than Game A. Even with framegen.

The crazy thing is that input lag as a whole is measured in ms... and we got people here telling you that when a game goes from 2 frames of input lag to 3 frames their game has become broken.

I want to be clear about this. Frame Generation does not help input lag AT ALL. Which means for most people, it's pointless.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Frame gen is great for making 120 fps appear as smooth as 240 fps. Its dicey but acceptable to make 60 fps appear like 120 fps.

Anything less than 60 and it's terrible.

 

[AzekZero]

I think too many folks are seeing this in black and white. Frame Generation is a situational tool!

Sometimes FG is magic and you get double the frames basically for free.

Sometimes FG doesn't work. You take the L and lower your graphics settings.

 

[MagusMajul]

Frame generation is a crutch and a compromise that does not reach parity in picture quality or responsiveness compared to real frames and often gets abused by Devs.

Stupid question.

you don't got to be a dickhead

 

[MazingerDUDE]

because it does not help with low fps

15 fps turned to 60 with MFG doesn't make it a 60 fps game

It may look 60 fps, but it will still play like 15 fps game

because you don't have control over any of the fake frames